Introduction - The Essence of God
Video
Summary
In this lesson, we are going to be kicking off our new study of BB1: Theology on Ichthys by starting to discuss the Essence of God. We’ll talk about how God is being (Exodus 3:14-15), as well as exactly what essence means as a concept.
Timestamps
0:000:00 - Intro and outline
01:0601:06 - The essence of God is being. He is the Great I AM
11:4311:43 - The resplendence of God: light and glory
13:2413:24 - Q: 1 Timothy 6:16 talks about God’s unapproachable light. It also says God alone possess immortality. What does that latter statement mean?
25:0125:01 - Q: We say God dwells in this unapproachable light that no one has seen nor ever can see. What then of cases in scripture where people seem to have “seen God?”
35:5235:52 - Comment: God’s glory as it relates to “every knee will bow, and every tongue confess”
49:1649:16 - Essence, nature, character… ???
59:0959:09 - Summary and outro
Content
(Derived from https://ichthys.com/1Theo.htm)
The essence of God is being. He is the Great I AM
The essence of something is what it really is. “Essence” and “being” are precise synonyms.
God tells us who He is in Exodus 3:14-15.
If you’ve ever thought about the question “Well, if the universe exists because God made it, then why does God exist? Did something or someone likewise make God?” then the answer is no—God exists simply because God is being.
Unbelievers scoff at that logic, but it is what the Bible says.
The resplendence of God: light and glory
Loosely speaking, light captures the sense that God is sublime and unapproachable (compare squinting at the sun, being blinded by it), while glory represents the side that shines forth visibly to mankind.
God’s glory is most directly revealed to mankind through His Son, Jesus Christ. As Hebrews 1:1-3 makes clear.
Q: 1 Timothy 6:16 talks about God’s unapproachable light. It also says God alone possess immortality. What does that latter statement mean?
This is a video-only section.
When 1 Timothy 6:16 says that only God possess immortality, what about the fact that both humans and angels have eternal existence?
Is it that God owns immortality, but that he gives it to us creatures such that we too now possess it (some to eternal life, and some to eternal death, based upon that which we choose)? Is this another aspect of God’s Uniqueness?
Q: We say God dwells in this unapproachable light that no one has seen nor ever can see. What then of cases in scripture where people seem to have “seen God?”
This is a video-only section.
Did Moses not see this light upon Mount Sinai? What about the Apostles present on the mount of transfiguration? What about Paul on the road to Damascus? What about John in His visions of God, recorded in Revelation?
Comment: God’s glory as it relates to “every knee will bow, and every tongue confess”
This is a video-only section.
The visible form of this glory was veiled in Christ’s first advent to make the choice for Him genuine. The glory was, however, revealed in His words and works.
Compare: “Every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess.” That is not now, but eventually.
Essence, nature, character… ???
If you’ve ever been confused about what the difference between nature and essence is (and we may as well throw form and substance in the mix as well), you are in good company. Philosophers have been arguing about these things for a very long time (compare Plato, Aristotle, Aquinas, Kant, and others).
Arguments usually seem to hinge on how “inherent” something is to an object. For example, a triangle must have three sides, otherwise it is no longer a triangle. Things that are “essential” (compare the word essence!) are things without which the object is not whatever we are saying it is.
Compare this link: https://chrismlegg.com/2018/06/19/what-do-essence-and-nature-mean-a-simple-explanation/
So, on our topic, must God be infinite and perfect in character to be God? Are these essential characteristics of God?
It is my opinion that wandering too far in this direction rapidly leads one to theosophy (in the negative sense). God is infinite and perfect in character. So what were we arguing about again?
If someone were to whine that I am question-dodging and not defining terms, I would say that God’s nature deals with His infinite abilities, God’s character deals with His moral perfection, and both are fundamental parts of who He is as God.
Video/audio transcript
0:000:00 - all right guys so we are picking up here today in early July 2023 and we are
0:050:05 - kicking off a new study here in the Bible basic series on ichus and so we had previously gone through part 6A
0:130:13 - talking about the study of the Christian walk and we are now here picking up at the very beginning of the Bible basic
0:190:19 - Series going over theology so the study of God and in our first lesson here
0:250:25 - today we’re going to be picking up uh introducing the the concept of the essence of God and so here’s the things
0:310:31 - that we are going to be talking about here uh in this first one we’re going to be talking about how God is being he is
0:380:38 - The Great I Am we have this verse in Exodus chapter 3 where he tells Moses
0:430:43 - who he is his identity his Essence we’re going to be talking about the resplendence of God and what that means
0:500:50 - in terms of light and glory and then we’re also going to talk a little bit about the difference between Essence and
0:560:56 - nature you may have also heard the words form and substance character what are these things you know these
1:021:02 - Concepts that philosophers talk about so we’ll spend a little bit of time there as
1:081:08 - well all right so the first thing that we are going to be talking about is the
1:141:14 - essence of God specifically how God is being he is The Great I Am and so the
1:201:20 - essence of something is what it really is Essence and being are precise synonyms they come from this Greek
1:271:27 - participle UIA um there’s one in Latin is well very similar so Essence and being are essentially precise synonyms
1:341:34 - now this is the passage here in Exodus chapter 3 where God tells us who he is
1:401:40 - um so I’m just going to go ahead and read this uh God said to Moses I am who
1:461:46 - I am and he said thus you shall say to the sons of Israel I am has sent me to
1:511:51 - you God furthermore said to Moses thus you shall say to the sons of Israel the
1:571:57 - Lord the god of your fathers the god of Abraham the god of Isaac and the god of Jacob has sent me to you this is my name
2:042:04 - forever and this is my Memorial name to all generations and so in the Hebrew this
2:102:10 - word is actually it’s got this really jargony technical name called the tetr Graton it means four letters in Greek
2:162:16 - that’s what the Greek word taton means um but it’s this unpronouncable name of
2:232:23 - God that’s how the Hebrews viewed it the holy name of God’s real identity and uh
2:302:30 - the the translates sometimes you may see it in English as Yahweh um you know the
2:352:35 - the four letters here um but that gets to the idea of being in Hebrew as well
2:422:42 - and so that’s where this I am comes from and so this is who God says he is this
2:472:47 - is the fundamental essence of God is caught up in this idea of existence and
2:542:54 - so moving on down a bit here in the first thing we’re going to talk about if you’ve ever thought about the question
3:003:00 - of well if the universe exists because God made it that’s what the Bible says
3:053:05 - well then why does God exist did something or someone likewise make god well the answer to that is no God exists
3:123:12 - simply because God is being God is existence so unbelievers kind of scoff
3:173:17 - at this but it is more or less what the Bible actually says all right aie so you
3:233:23 - had something else you wanted to say about God being The Great I Am okay yeah um I think uh the thing I’m
3:333:33 - particularly interested in is what unbelievers say about that when you argue you know um that the there the
3:413:41 - question who created God or where did God come from or where was God and all of that is actually nonsense um
3:493:49 - the the reason that that question is nonsense is just like you said that God
3:553:55 - is being right he is the is that which just is the I am what I am I am what I
4:054:05 - will be or I will be what I am however you you you you skew it the idea is this
4:114:11 - that I I am that which just is so the main thing I want to raise about that
4:174:17 - because of my um apologetic bent whenever I engage in these matters is
4:234:23 - this that there is there is in the very existence of anything the demand for
4:294:29 - something that has always existed and never had a beginning or an end that is
4:354:35 - a fundamental requirement for anything to exist if something has not always
4:414:41 - existed then nothing should exist this is exactly why currently in
4:484:48 - physics um those who have been who who are still holding on to the theory of
4:534:53 - the Big Bang are are trying to make the word nothing mean something other than
5:005:00 - nothing they’re insisting that nothing is not nothing that nothing is a
5:055:05 - compressed very weird they they get very esoteric with the definition of nothing
5:115:11 - and they they’ve been banding it around in in the halls of physics for a few years now at least that I know of
5:195:19 - everybody knows that in order to have everything that is you have to begin with something you have to so this is
5:285:28 - another reason why for us Christians the burden of proof that God exists is never on us because everything demands that he
5:355:35 - should exist it is either you have God or you have the universe and the
5:415:41 - universe is manifestly not God because the universe experiences change it
5:485:48 - transforms and that requires that something is acting upon it that is how
5:555:55 - change happens change is is is things that are are stable in nature do not
6:016:01 - change and that is why God is the is the is that’s another aspect of God being
6:076:07 - the is it means he never changes nothing can act on him and transform him in any
6:136:13 - way and nothing can compromise the quality of his
6:196:19 - existence but God can act on everything he can Will things into existence that’s
6:246:24 - actually how he created you know everything that is and can I for a a um
6:316:31 - the point that we’re making here is great um one of the other reasons why it just makes sense for us to speak of
6:376:37 - existence qu existence for us as humans is because we exist only within you know
6:436:43 - four dimensions right space and matter and time we are bound by them and our
6:496:49 - conception of existence is fundamentally linked to these properties which God is not bound by and so this is one reason
6:576:57 - why it can be difficult for us to talk with atheists or even agnostic people about this is just we we aren’t starting
7:047:04 - from the same ideas of what existence even is because when they talk about something existing before time what does
7:117:11 - existing before time even mean like we as humans have a very bad understanding
7:177:17 - of this because we are limited by SpaceTime um another thing just bouncing off points you brought up um this comes
7:247:24 - up in philosophy some of the arguments for God’s existence I personally I’ve always been more like well God exists
7:307:30 - because the Bible says he does and we trust the Bible and we take it on faith it’s a presupposition but philosophers
7:357:35 - do argue about this um there’s one particular argument that goes something about the need for an uncaused cause
7:427:42 - right the prime mover believe that’s what Aristotle calls it um the uncaused cause it is logically necessary if
7:517:51 - everything in the universe is this chain of cause and effect something has to set it off to begin with and like Audi said
7:567:56 - it can’t be the big bang because right now I don’t want to be mean but my understanding of the physics is that
8:028:02 - right now they say that before there was time and space and matter there was like a point charge of energy and the
8:078:07 - fundamental problem with this is that the point charge of energy is still not nothing so um that’s just me riffing on
8:148:14 - all the things you brought up um very good points here yeah yeah so I I want to say finally
8:228:22 - just to wrap up that the reason I’ve actually gone into this is not because I know that a lot of Christians really
8:288:28 - generally don’t want to deal with philosophy and all of that because they feel like it it goes against faith in
8:348:34 - some way um but that’s not the point I’m not even interested in addressing that specifically the reason I’m raising it
8:408:40 - is this to show that there is a reason that the Bible says first the fool says
8:488:48 - in his heart that there is no God second that everything that exists is Testament
8:548:54 - it’s a testament of God’s existence that’s Psalm 19: 1-6 and Revelation um sorry Romans
9:019:01 - 1:20 the Bible States it as an incontrovertible fact that the bare
9:079:07 - existence of of the universe as we see it is absolute incontrovertible proof of
9:159:15 - God’s existence there is in other words you have to deny reality to deny God’s
9:219:21 - existence because however you skew It Whatever argument you make you either
9:289:28 - end up with something that always has been and therefore brought everything else that exists about or you end up
9:369:36 - where you assume that something that obviously cannot always have been is that which has always been so you can’t
9:439:43 - really get away from the core definition of what God is that which always is yeah
9:509:50 - you can’t get away from it so you either accept that that definition belongs to
9:559:55 - the god that we find in the Bible or you ascribe it to the universe that you exist in or even ascribe it to yourself
10:0110:01 - if you’re willing to go so far as to be a solipsist you will always ascribe that quality to something which means you
10:0810:08 - cannot get away from deity in any philosophy that any human being has ever come up with so I will say there a
10:1610:16 - branch of neoplatonic philosophers I wrote a paper on one of them in college there’s this guy named platinus um and
10:2210:22 - so some of the neoplatonic folks they called for all intents and purposes what they called God we believe as is the
10:2810:28 - Christian God and they they they had a similar concept again these are pagans not believing in judeo-christian God but
10:3510:35 - they had the same problems with existence and the uncaused cause and all of this they conceptualized something
10:4210:42 - and they didn’t Define it the same but it’s logically necessary is what we’re saying
10:4810:48 - um and to tie this up perhaps a little bit this is why us grasping that God is
10:5510:55 - existence God is being it is his nature is kind of a core fundamental part of us
11:0211:02 - understanding who God really is um so it’s not minor maybe it seems kind of hard to wrap our heads around and it
11:0711:07 - will be for us as finite human beings but it’s important in Understanding God’s kind of separateness from the
11:1411:14 - universe he transcends it in a way that we can’t perfectly understand but it’s really important for us to kind of get
11:2111:21 - that sense of how big God is and how separate he is from everything that has been created um he is the Creator and so
11:2911:29 - how can he possibly be bound by his own creation that’s the idea here yeah yeah okay that’s so I think
11:3811:38 - that’s where we’ll stop this point and we’ll about to pick up with the second
11:4611:46 - one okay all right so the next point that we’re going to be talking about is we
11:5211:52 - are going to be talking about the idea of the resplendence of God and this is a manifestation of his essence of his
11:5911:59 - nature um and so uh the study on ikus here I know I pulled things out into
12:0412:04 - slides but this is coming directly from the study talks about light and Glory so loosely speaking light captures the
12:1112:11 - sense that God is Sublime and unapproachable and so you might compare squinting at the Sun and being blinded
12:1712:17 - by it you can’t really see it while Glory represents this the side that shines forth visibly to mankind so we
12:2412:24 - see the glory the effects of God’s of God’s existence and his work working in the world glory is what we can see uh in
12:3212:32 - the metaphor here light is sort of what we can’t see the unapproachable of God um and so there’s this verse here in
12:3912:39 - Hebrews chapter 1 um the Bible is very clear that uh the way in which God has
12:4512:45 - manifested his glory most kind of visibly in the world is by speaking through his son so this is picking up
12:5112:51 - right at the beginning of Hebrews chapter 1 it says God after he spoke long ago to the fathers and the prophets
12:5712:57 - in many portions and in many many ways in these last days has spoken to us in his son whom he appointed heir of all
13:0413:04 - things through whom he also made the world so Jesus Christ is God’s primary
13:1013:10 - message to humankind the primary manifestation of his glory um now we’re
13:1613:16 - not going to get into verse three here uh interesting tangent perhaps but the idea is that Jesus Christ represents
13:2313:23 - God’s glory most directly revealed to mankind um so before I kick us off and
13:2813:28 - we start doing questions here um Lisa had brought up this quote here from 1
13:3413:34 - Timothy 6: 16 um and so I should probably actually go find that I think I
13:3913:39 - have it pulled up over here um so 1 Timothy 6:16 and this is a quote from or
13:4513:45 - one of the verses that Dr duil uses in the ikas study um talking about the unapproachable light it says uh God who
13:5313:53 - alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light whom no one has seen or can see to him be honor and
13:5913:59 - eternal Dominion amen so the question here was what does it mean for God Alone
14:0614:06 - to have immortality given that both Angel and human will have kind of
14:1214:12 - Eternal existence um so this is one of those places um where this is an English
14:1814:18 - problem it’s not a problem in Greek so the Greek word here um you can see the Greek is up here for 1 Timothy
14:2514:25 - 6:16 um is this one right here see the begin with an alpha and then a Theta right so athanasia is the word here and
14:3314:33 - it means more literally translated it means like not dying undying and so the
14:4114:41 - way in which God is different from us is human beings experience death God being
14:4614:46 - separate from SpaceTime God does not die God is unchanging as we’ve just talked about because God is being God is life
14:5414:54 - that’s one of the other things we’ll get to and so this word isn’t immortality in the sense of Eternal existence as it is
15:0215:02 - lack of dying if that makes sense that’s kind of a separate concept so um I don’t
15:1015:10 - know if that question and that answer makes sense but that is one place where we could start
15:1515:15 - here okay yeah um I want to see that quote again God
15:2215:22 - Alone possesses immortality okay so the first here in uh
15:2715:27 - 1 Timothy chapter 6 yeah yeah okay okay so
15:3415:34 - uh I think I think uh you you you captured it quite well we don’t possess
15:4215:42 - immortality we in the sense of owning it God owns it it’s
15:4815:48 - his and he shared it with us um when we read Ecclesiastes he says that he has
15:5415:54 - set eternity in our hearts and then in another place few verses after that he before that it actually said that um
16:0216:02 - everything that God does lasts forever which which kind of proves that he owns
16:0816:08 - immortality um there are those who might argue on the basis of this passage uh
16:1416:14 - First Timothy that this is why they believe that um unless God actually
16:2116:21 - gives you life you won’t live forever so those who will not be with God in
16:2716:27 - eternity will die and that’s it they’ll be gone from existence but that flies in the face of
16:3416:34 - what Ecclesiastes says which is that everything that God makes lasts forever and that thing that very statement from
16:4216:42 - Ecclesiastes actually explains what we are asking about how is he the only one
16:4816:48 - who possesses immortality it’s because it’s his he is that which is everything
16:5516:55 - else derives its aess from him MH so
17:0017:00 - when he makes things and imbus them by the quality of just making them that’s
17:0617:06 - just how God is the things he he he builds the things he makes are just like that they exist
17:1217:12 - Forever by D of the fact that he is the one who makes them they are Immortal in
17:2017:20 - that sense that’s one way to to appreciate the the question of who possesses immortality it’s that he
17:2617:26 - possess it’s his and uh he gives it to wh whomever he pleases now um can I cut
17:3217:32 - in with something here as well so I I kind of made the point that this word is getting at lack of death and so that
17:4017:40 - kind of begs the question of well which kind of death if you are familiar with some of ichus teachings you’ll know that
17:4617:46 - ichus generally speaks of three types of death so when the serpent tempts Eve in
17:5117:51 - Genesis chapter 3 um the serpent says if you eat of the tree you will surely die
17:5617:56 - and that verse if you don’t if you’re not careful in your hermeneutics when you interpret it well you know eve took
18:0318:03 - a bite and she didn’t immediately get struck by a bolt from heaven for example so that statement was true with regards
18:0818:08 - to physical death so there’s kind of physical death and then there’s spiritual death which we Define a
18:1418:14 - separation from God and then there’s what we call the second or Eternal death which is life in the Lake of Fire after
18:2118:21 - we die right and what a he was getting at is well when you die physically that is the destination for
18:2718:27 - those who do not believe it is an eternal state of of existence and so you
18:3218:32 - might also note that Jesus Christ died physically right but the death in view
18:3818:38 - here is more complicated than just physical death right that’s not the only thing in view when we say that God is um
18:4418:44 - you know described by this word athanasia right that God does not taste death well
18:5018:50 - God is life right Jesus Christ was never separated from the father in what we
18:5518:55 - would term a spiritual sense and of course any eternity he’s not going to the lake of fire and so it’s more than
19:0119:01 - just physical death that is in view here it’s the whole shebang the whole Spectrum all three classifications of
19:0719:07 - death because God is life fundamentally and he can’t like uh what’s the right
19:1319:13 - word like uh reject himself right how could God die of God his life right it’s
19:1819:18 - just a nonsensical concept yeah now the the reason that I
19:2319:23 - started from where I started is just to make sure that um we capture the the the
19:2919:29 - owning of immortality part the other side of things is what you’re talking about where the Death part comes in but
19:3619:36 - death was actually just like you said I think I want to put a fine point on it
19:4119:41 - in this way that death is the it is a
19:4719:47 - description of our relationship to God in a particular state so physical death
19:5419:54 - was not supposed to be a thing that was not how things were supposed to go
19:5919:59 - although of course in God’s plan he knew what would happen and had written it in
20:0520:05 - So Physical death the ending of experience in this physical
20:1320:13 - body was the consequence of going contrary to God
20:1920:19 - which of course is like well if you cease drinking from the Fountain of Life then obviously you start to die so
20:2920:29 - when Adam and Eve’s relationship with God was cut off the next thing that happened was we’re not going to allow
20:3520:35 - them access to the Tree of Life which they if they continue to eat they will exist forever right that was a very um
20:4520:45 - uh dramatic or graphic way of demonstrating what had happened spiritually which meant if they were no
20:5320:53 - longer taking their cue from God then they could no longer be
20:5920:59 - living so in that sense that that deathlessness comes into play which also
21:0721:07 - derives its meaning from the fact that God owns immortality nothing else
21:1221:12 - possesses it except that he gives it to that thing and that’s the point that because God created things they last
21:2021:20 - forever I I’ll try to demonstrate first of all we know from the scriptures that
21:2621:26 - even if you’re an unbeliever you are going to be resurrected your Resurrection is not
21:3221:32 - going to be the same as the res the resurrection of a Believer but you’re going to be resurrected in a body that
21:3821:38 - is suited for Eternal condemnation there is no going out of existence forever for anybody because
21:4521:45 - nobody was designed to go out of existence we have also in second Peter
21:5121:51 - chapter 3 that everything we see the entire universe we see is going to be
21:5621:56 - burned up and removed out of the way and yet we have cause to understand that
22:0422:04 - that is not necessarily meaning that these things will cease to exist they
22:0922:09 - simply will not exist for the purpose for which they had originally been made
22:1522:15 - this is a a a universe that is Tainted with sin and for that reason it’s going to be sort of rolled away removed from
22:2322:23 - its place and replaced with something better and that’s actually why we think
22:2822:28 - about the new universe as a resurrection of God’s creation rather than rather than like he
22:3722:37 - he deleted something entirely and put something else in its place in that sense so the what we’re getting at is
22:4422:44 - God owns immortality and by by D of the fact that
22:5022:50 - he does everything he creates is it it has it built into it in the sense that
22:5722:57 - things possess the ability to exist forever not necessarily in the way that they God
23:0423:04 - would have wanted them to but in the way that they have come to be used so um the
23:0923:09 - deathlessness side of things makes absolute sense too when we start to think of the relationship of things to
23:1523:15 - God that means he owns immortality if you turn against him then how can you
23:2223:22 - actually participate in his immortality in that sense you are cut off from his life in some way it does not mean that
23:2923:29 - you will cease to exist forever the unbeliever will still be in the Lake of Fire forever he still exists he has some
23:3623:36 - form of immortality but he is cut off from the life that is God the fullness of life that is God the beauty of life
23:4323:43 - that is God everything because all the there is nothing about goodness or or or
23:4923:49 - life or beauty that is external to God you don’t find those things outside of God it’s
23:5523:55 - like uh when people say that um it’s something that I believe Proverbs talks about that um stolen stolen bread is
24:0324:03 - sweet stolen waters are sweet and the Bible says they end up as gravel in the
24:0824:08 - mouth that’s true some people take pleasure in doing the wrong thing but
24:1424:14 - yes that’s a warping of our nature but in fact true pleasure is with God that’s
24:2224:22 - where it is so when God removes all that is actually him from a particular
24:2724:27 - situation you have a husk of an existence there’s immortality there but it isely immortality it’s like yeah so
24:3724:37 - that’s where the deathlessness side of things comes from but the reason I started from where I started is to make
24:4224:42 - sure that we understand that what what Paul is saying to Timothy here is
24:4824:48 - because God himself owns this thing that’s why we are close to him he owns
24:5624:56 - it none of us can get it from anywhere else immortality is what God is
25:0125:01 - about that’s his is to speak next thing probably I think we have covered this
25:0825:08 - one pretty well although of course if anyone wants to ask more questions to clarify things that AI not have said
25:1425:14 - feel free um the next one that we were going to talk about was the idea of the
25:1925:19 - unapproachable light and so we said light represents the unapproachable sort of in the metaphor here and glory is the
25:2625:26 - visible form of the presence of God that takes place in the world and so the question is well
25:3425:34 - what about people like Moses on Mount Si the Mount of transfiguration Paul on the
25:4025:40 - road to Damascus John in his Visions did these people see God right um there’s
25:4625:46 - another verse kind of appropo here um that talks about how no one can see God and live if you guys are recalling I
25:5425:54 - don’t remember exactly where that verse is I I know it’s somewhere in the old test Testament um but well when Moses
26:0026:00 - was receiving the tablets of the law and he came back and his face was shining
26:0526:05 - and I think that comes up in like second Corinthians somewhere Paul talks about us being MIRS reflecting Glory from
26:1226:12 - glory to glory uh it’s a Greek idiom I don’t want to get off topic but this idea of light and did these people
26:2026:20 - actually see God well if no one can see God and live well did they see God and uh if the light is truly unapproachable
26:2626:26 - did they approach the that sort of question um and I’ll see what AI thinks but to me I think this comes straight
26:3326:33 - down to the idea of christophanies um so this idea theophany uh you know it’s a
26:4126:41 - technical jargon way of saying you know the god coming uh to Earth theophany is
26:4626:46 - a seeing of of God and christophany is a seeing of Jesus Christ and so there is
26:5226:52 - the idea of the like definite article the angel of the Lord in the Old
26:5826:58 - Testament and that is actually a pre-incarnate Jesus Christ that is the second person of the Trinity the son the
27:0527:05 - agent the one who created the universe um so if the father’s the architect the son’s the agent and the spirit is the
27:1227:12 - empowerer so to speak and we’ll get to the Trinity and the roles they adopt a bit later in this study well these
27:1827:18 - instances of people seeing and interacting with God in the Old Testament were interactions with the son
27:2627:26 - christophanies um and the sort of veil of separation between the third heaven
27:3227:32 - and the universe which is presently tainted by sin uh is to keep the presence of the father distinctly
27:3927:39 - separate and there’s some symbolism in The Temple of the holy of holies also separated by a curtain that’s kind of
27:4527:45 - the idea of God’s holiness cannot be be in the presence of man without destroying the sin um so aie do you want
27:5327:53 - to Riff on anything I’ve said here about this question of what about these people who saw light or saw God but yet did not
28:0028:00 - die you’ve you’ve really captured it I’m just going to unravel it a little bit more um so uh like you said it was a
28:0828:08 - christophany and uh it’s important to remember I mean there are people who of course would argue that we we claim that
28:1428:14 - Jesus Christ is God so what does that have to do with anything because we’re still talking about seeing God and we do
28:2228:22 - know that where was that it was in John where where John said that they saw the
28:2928:29 - god of Israel and ate and drank with him you know so it’s like did they see did
28:3528:35 - they not see what which one is it and the Bible is this is where the the question of the Trinity begins to you
28:4228:42 - know creep up um exes holds and it is actually something I’m very persuaded is
28:4928:49 - actually true true as well that um uh the father presents as the face of the
28:5528:55 - trinity in other words words he plays the role of the godhead the role of God
29:0229:02 - in the Trinity so Creation in in in the way they and the
29:0929:09 - roles of course overlaps overlap with each other the way that the the Trinity self assigned roles to themselves is
29:1729:17 - that the father is actually the represent the representation of the deity of the Trinity to
29:2429:24 - Creation so the TR the the father stays aloof from sinful creation does not
29:3229:32 - interact with sinful creation and maintains a barrier of separation from
29:3829:38 - sinful creation that’s why we talk about God being in the third heaven and not being on Earth even though we know as we
29:4629:46 - will soon discuss that God is everywhere so if God is everywhere why do we say
29:5229:52 - he’s in the third heaven it’s because the the father himself who is the represent of the deity of the of the
30:0030:00 - Trinity is maintaining a perceptible separation from sinful
30:0730:07 - creation but the holy spirit is currently right here on Earth he’s living in believers who are sinful he is
30:1430:14 - working in a world that is sinful he is restraining evil in a wicked world is
30:2030:20 - that in any way violating anything the Bible says now I would I would make a
30:2630:26 - point in and say whenever we see these things we don’t think the way that a
30:3230:32 - Believer should should go about it is not to think what is wrong here and rather to think what am I not
30:3930:39 - understanding here so the holy spirit is in a sinful world the lord Jesus came
30:4730:47 - and he lived in the world died on the cross was raised from the dead and after
30:5530:55 - after he ascended into heaven heos is ended which meant his human nature and
31:0131:01 - his divine nature were perfectly United in each other so when you consider all
31:0831:08 - of that when you take all of that into consideration you we we come to understand that when the Bible says no
31:1431:14 - man may see my face and let that’s in Exodus 33:20 by the way no man may see my face and and live you cannot see my
31:2231:22 - face for no man may see me and live that’s how um the Lord said it what was
31:2831:28 - being said is you are not permitted to see the representation of the deity of
31:3431:34 - the Trinity that’s why the father is the face of the Trinity but then he told
31:3931:39 - Abraham he told Moses sorry um I will put you in a c and when I have passed by
31:4431:44 - and and place my hand on you so that you do not see my face but when I have passed by I will let I will let you see
31:5031:50 - my back right so that’s that that one was interesting because in fact
31:5731:57 - it would seem that the Lord Jesus would be this back so to speak because he is
32:0332:03 - the one who is facing creation remember that he was someone was walking in the Garden of Eden and the Bible said it was
32:1032:10 - the Lord God with Adam and Eve and just as we have what as we have said the
32:1632:16 - Bible records that they saw the god of Israel and ate and drank that’s what the Bible actually records that this was
32:2232:22 - referring to the 70 elders of Israel so all of these things tell that they saw somebody that was part of the
32:3032:30 - Trinity but there’s someone they were not permitted to get in any contact with and that was the father we will see this
32:3732:37 - playing out again when we talk about um the third heaven and uh Paradise when uh
32:4432:44 - Believers before the cross would die they couldn’t go into the third heaven but they were in some place that was
32:5032:50 - actually pleasurable that was delightful it was like a Garden of Eden of it Stone
32:5632:56 - it was Paradise Jesus called it paradise and he also called it Abraham’s bosom it’s the place from where Samuel
33:0333:03 - ascended when Saul um went to a a a uh a
33:1033:10 - medium and asked to have him raised up to speak with him that’s the same place
33:1533:15 - that um Abraham was found it’s the same place that uh Lazarus as the poor man
33:2133:21 - the poor believer was also found it’s the same place that Jesus went to after he he died on the cross and the reason
33:2933:29 - for this this separation was because sinful man may not enter the presence of
33:3533:35 - the father even though they had communion with the Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit fell on many prophets even before Jesus
33:4233:42 - went to the cross and Jesus himself came and ate and drank and interacted with
33:4933:49 - his disciples even though he was also God but the father nobody ever saw him
33:5533:55 - that’s also the testimony of John no nobody ever saw him except the son that’s what he said so when when we
34:0234:02 - think about these things that God dwells in unapproachable light and all of that we are supposed to understand the
34:0834:08 - separation that exists between the father as a representation of the deity of the Trinity and sinful creation but
34:1734:17 - this is why we look forward to Resurrection that’s why we look forward to the putting off of this body because
34:2334:23 - when we put off this body of sin there is no especially because Jesus has now died on the cross for us there is no
34:2934:29 - longer any reason we cannot enter into the presence of the father so that’s yeah I will say the the powerfulness of
34:3734:37 - us not actually being able to commune with God in the third heaven is any believers who died until after the cross
34:4434:44 - it makes sense when you think of things in terms of justification um before the
34:4934:49 - cross people were saved essentially on credit looking forward towards Christ sacrifice so all human beings from Adam
34:5534:55 - to the last person who who ever lived will be saved on account of their sin being paid for by Christ but the cross
35:0235:02 - is you know thousands of years into human history so what about all the people before the cross well they were
35:0835:08 - in this place that AI described but they could actually be in the presence of the father after Christ’s Resurrection
35:1535:15 - because the resurrection represents God’s acceptance of Christ’s payment for our sins so after that point in a manner
35:2135:21 - of speaking God didn’t see those people anymore he saw them through the blood of Jesus Christ and that’s why they could
35:2735:27 - be in the presence of the father um because no longer was their sin tainting them because they’d been covered in the
35:3435:34 - blood of Christ now also of course uh in the new heavens and the new Earth the father will come and live among us so
35:4135:41 - it’s not just going to be um the son Among Us and the Holy Spirit indwelling us but we will be in the presence of the
35:4735:47 - father but that’s only in the new heavens and the new earth once sin has be been completely
35:5335:53 - eradicated right so yeah um one other uh comment we had here on light and Glory
35:5935:59 - um to go over was uh this one here about how the visible form of Christ’s Glory
36:0536:05 - was veiled in his first Advent to make the choice for him genuine um so the glory was revealed in his works and his
36:1236:12 - words some of the signs he did definitely manifesting the glory of the almighty um but by way of contrast when
36:2036:20 - Jesus Christ comes again I believe it’s in uh let me let me check myself on this whoops um I think it’s in Revelation
36:2736:27 - chapter 19 um Revelation 19 is talking about the second coming of Christ um and
36:3436:34 - when he comes the second time uh let me see if I’m
36:4136:41 - right am I right maybe I’m not yeah here he comes coming on a horse horse right
36:4736:47 - um so when Jesus Christ comes again you know defeating the armies of the Antichrist and Armageddon um and then
36:5336:53 - judgment commences you know the the day of judgment so uh that Paradigm in scripture the day of the Lord Paradigm
37:0037:00 - if you’re familiar with how Dr lugan Bill explains this in terms of Prophecy uh well on that day um then every knee
37:0737:07 - will bow and every tongue will confess that’s a quote I believe it’s from Timothy Thessalonians I can I can look
37:1437:14 - up the exact ver every KN every knee well that’s that’s in Philippians
37:1937:19 - chapter two Philippians yeah okay you’re right Philippians 21-1 but that happens on the day of the Lord Paradigm um in
37:2637:26 - ology this is the point in which yeah the veil comes off and we behold Christ’s Glory as it is and at that
37:3337:33 - point even unbelievers will not by their own will but because it is they can’t deny it
37:4137:41 - right you know God allows human Hardness of Heart to persist but they cannot deny the glory of God when he comes in this
37:4737:47 - manner um so they too will bow and their tongues will confess the glory of God because it will be manifest it will be
37:5537:55 - something that you can’t Harden your eyes to um and that will only happen at
38:0038:00 - that point in time um until now God lets Humanity persist in Hardness of Heart
38:0638:06 - but that will not be the case at that point in time yeah in in fact I I want to point
38:1538:15 - out that okay this is an an argument I used to make a few years ago I when
38:2138:21 - people would say why doesn’t God just show me himself why do a lot of atheists would argue
38:2738:27 - why does God need me why does God need you the Christian to argue for his existence so that I can believe why
38:3438:34 - doesn’t he just show me himself so one very strong reason for
38:3938:39 - this is actually that the same thing that we started with the isness of God the God is Ultimate Reality that is to
38:4938:49 - say when you think about math for example math is um
38:5738:57 - an a way to reason abstractly about the physical world
39:0339:03 - so you can talk all you want about x’s and y’s and calculus and
39:0939:09 - whatnot it doesn’t really mean it doesn’t it doesn’t it doesn’t do much
39:1439:14 - until you actually start to bring those things to bear on physical systems that you interact with and that’s the whole
39:2239:22 - point math gives you a way of seeing those things mentally so that you can
39:2839:28 - act on them physically a lot of the things about life as we see them is similar to math
39:3539:35 - in that sense but God is the Ultimate Reality if anyone of us were to see God
39:4239:42 - with his glory unveiled that is himself naked as as it can
39:4839:48 - get we would fail to be able to resist his will that’s just how that
39:5639:56 - it’s like when the Sun rises and the Darkness recedes and all Shadows flee
40:0440:04 - that’s exactly what happens when the glory of God is unveiled this is also
40:1040:10 - something I should have mentioned when I was talking about the unapproachable light issue that God veils himself in
40:1740:17 - his interactions with with um with creation such that even even though the
40:2240:22 - people of old were largely interacting with Jesus Christ himself he’s Glory as deity was still veiled which is again to
40:2940:29 - tell to remind us that it is the father who plays the role of the deity of the representation of the deity of the
40:3540:35 - Trinity the other two the the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit Veil their own Glory
40:4140:41 - tremendously we have to understand that it’s like with the father he is the one who does not Veil it in that sense so if
40:5040:50 - we were to walk into the presence of the father in sin we we would really die but
40:5640:56 - we can interact with the son we can interact with the holy spirit because they have given us it’s like the Holy
41:0241:02 - Spirit actually living in a human being in in a Believer sorry okay so um it’s like the
41:0941:09 - Holy Spirit actually living in a Believer and um in that same believer he
41:1441:14 - would be speaking and the believer can ignore what he is saying the miracle of that is sometimes beyond our ability to
41:2141:21 - even perceive it’s impossible to resist God
41:2741:27 - when God himself has decided that he will not be resisted can I can I read this verse from Isaiah 53 I just man
41:3441:34 - this hit me when you were talking here um this is talking now Isaiah 53 is the prophecy of the suffering servant which
41:4041:40 - we now know to be Jesus Christ but just listen to this for a second in terms of the veiled Majesty of God right so this
41:4741:47 - is speaking of Jesus Christ as the suffering servant it says verse two he grew up before him like a tender shoot
41:5341:53 - and like a root out of dry ground he had no stately form or Majesty to attract us
41:5841:58 - no beauty that we should desire him he was despised and rejected by Men A Man of Sorrows acquainted with grief like
42:0542:05 - one from whom men hide their faces he was despised and we esteemed him
42:1142:11 - not just just no stately former Majesty to attract this right this is why it’s
42:1642:16 - always been about faith for us because we G it’s not like Jesus Christ came and
42:2342:23 - you know he was like a a Standing Tall among men you know with beauty outshining the rest and abilities So
42:3242:32 - Glorious that people had to fall down before him right um you get some of this in fiction when people are talking about
42:3842:38 - the Majesty of Kings you know Emperors maybe I maybe it depends on culture a bit because you know in the Far East
42:4442:44 - some of them actually worship their Emperors as Gods but you know this idea of Regal Majesty that just people find
42:5242:52 - irresistible yeah Jesus when in during the Incarnation Jesus did not have that
42:5842:58 - and so when you think about those that followed him and were willing to die for him they belied who he was in his kosis
43:0643:06 - um his Veil deity not because Jesus was so exceptional as a human being um yeah
43:1443:14 - yeah so that’s that’s the thing the the the matter of of the glory of the Lord
43:2243:22 - and this is one thing that actually struck me in uh the way that EX presented that God is light so if we
43:2943:29 - were to actually speak of God in terms of substance that is what he is made of
43:3443:34 - of course that that we should remember that that’s nonsensical language to speak there is no God is made of
43:3943:39 - anything but he would be light that would be the definition of him and think
43:4543:45 - about this when Jesus returns the Bible speaks of him as rising like the sun and
43:5143:51 - when we go to Zechariah 14 and it talks about how the moment of his of his is returned to the Earth will be it says at
43:5843:58 - that time will be neither day nor night the reason for this is that it’s actually in the middle of the day when
44:0444:04 - it should be light out it would be dark like it’s midnight and then he rises and
44:1144:11 - when he rises the Brilliance of his Rising is far brighter than anything
44:1744:17 - anyone has ever seen of the sun now think about Jesus Christ being the Morning Star too right exactly the
44:2544:25 - Morning Star yes and this this is yeah this is the glory of his deity we’re talking about
44:3244:32 - the glory we’re talking about is visibly resplendant its light beaming through
44:4044:40 - and this is actually what God is actually promising to every believer and it is the angels are already
44:4644:46 - experiencing it at the moment and departed Believers are experiencing it too he shares That Glory with
44:5244:52 - us that we too will shine like Stars this is what Daniel says or the angel
44:5744:57 - told Daniel in Daniel chapter 12 that they will shine like stars in their father’s Kingdom so we are to understand
45:0545:05 - that if we were to speak of God in terms of substance what he is made of again remembering that he is not made of
45:1245:12 - anything but the substance of his deity is light and glory is the is The Shining
45:1845:18 - forth of that light yeah and so that that is also to tell us how incredibly
45:2445:24 - amazing and and Powerful f it is that that light could walk among men and not be seen as light I mean how about how
45:3145:31 - about John chapter one right and yeah the light walked among the darkness and the Darkness did not recognize it right
45:3845:38 - um yes exactly exactly yeah yeah so that’s that’s what I would say to to
45:4545:45 - that yeah I just wanted to bring up the um the first U day of creation when
45:5145:51 - there was no sun but there was light y yeah in that case I would always be care
45:5745:57 - I would try to remind people that God God does not need to be the light himself he can create light without
46:0246:02 - actually you know um having his son shining it through and there’s a
46:0846:08 - difference between created light and the light that is actually God that’s that’s something we see creation but Lisa’s
46:1546:15 - Point’s actually very interesting too uh not to get too far a few because we could get very off topic here but why was the universe dark right what we’re
46:2246:22 - talking about is one of the strongest inferential Arguments for or uh Genesis
46:2746:27 - being Recreation you know that teaching of the Gap theory on nius is because if God is a being of light as we’re saying
46:3446:34 - it’s a substance you know waving our hand at what that means precisely but if God is light then why was the universe
46:4246:42 - dark it doesn’t make sense unless the universe had been judged before um now I
46:4746:47 - want to close this out I we’ve been on this man we have hit this one hard I am glad though this has been good stuff I
46:5346:53 - want to read this passage here from or second second Corinthians chapter 3 so we are on this topic of light and glory
47:0047:00 - and specifically this idea of bailing and what it means for us as Believers too so this is talking about the New
47:0647:06 - Covenant picking up in 2 Corinthians chapter 3 verse 7 so I’m just go ahead and read from verse 7 through Verse 18 I
47:1347:13 - think it’s all pretty relevant here as you guys will see and I think that’s where we’ll close this section so we can actually get through the third one in
47:1947:19 - this video um but all very appropo to our discussion of Glory here so 2
47:2647:26 - Corinthians chapter 3 picking up at verse 7 says now if the ministry that brought death which was engraved in
47:3247:32 - letters on Stone came with Glory so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its
47:3847:38 - Glory transitory though it was will not the ministry of the spirit be even more
47:4347:43 - glorious if the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious how much more glorious is the ministry that brings
47:4947:49 - righteousness for what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with The surpassing Glory and if what was
47:5647:56 - transitory came with Glory how much greater is the glory of that which lasts
48:0148:01 - therefore since we have such a hope we are very bold we are not like Moses who would put a veil over his face to
48:0848:08 - prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away but their minds were made dull for to this day the
48:1548:15 - same Veil remains when the old Covenant is read it has not been removed because only in Christ is it taken away even to
48:2248:22 - this day when Moses is read a veil covers their heart s but whenever anyone turns to the Lord the veil is taken away
48:3048:30 - now the Lord is the spirit and where the spirit of the Lord is there is freedom and we all who with unveiled faces
48:3748:37 - contemplate the Lord’s Glory are being transformed into his image with ever increasing Glory which comes from the
48:4348:43 - Lord who is the spirit amen right um so we are being transformed to reflect
48:5048:50 - God’s glory we are reflectors of God’s glory right through the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit now I think
48:5748:57 - there is one more thing so we’re going to pause for a second and see if there’s one more thing to talk about and then we’ll finish off this section here all
49:0449:04 - right well I think we decided that actually we talked a good bit about this topic so with this we’re going to go
49:1149:11 - ahead and move on to the next thing here talking about the essence and nature of
49:1949:19 - God all right so when we talk about some of these terms like Essence and nature
49:2549:25 - and character and if you’ve ever read any philosophy you might have also come across form and
49:3049:30 - substance um well what are these things what’s the difference between them and do we need to care about the fact that
49:3749:37 - throughout history many philosophers and theologians who dabble in philosophy like Thomas aquinus is a famous one they
49:4449:44 - argue about these things also comes up a lot in uh Catholic and Orthodox theology
49:4949:49 - where they talk about uh the son being eternally begotten of the father in this
49:5549:55 - Spirit eternally proceeding from the father and all of these other things that they talk about in terms of ontology I don’t really want us to go
50:0250:02 - there because I feel like we get a bit off topic but um we’re just going to talk a little bit about what does it
50:0850:08 - mean for something to be essential you know what is an essential characteristic of something um and so when you ask the
50:1550:15 - question about well what’s the difference between nature and Essence right uh debate that people have had for
50:2050:20 - a long time or substance or form or these other things arguments usually seem to hinge on how quote unquote
50:2750:27 - inherent something is to an object so for example a triangle must have three sides otherwise it’s no longer a
50:3350:33 - triangle so things that are essential and here this kind of blew my mind when I saw it if you compare the word essence
50:4050:40 - to essential right essential things are things that you have to have that compose the essence of something right
50:4650:46 - they have the same root coming from that Greek word here and so essential things
50:5250:52 - are things without which an object is not whatever we are saying so if you want to use a fany jargony word that
50:5850:58 - would be ontologically speaking right in terms of Something’s existence if it does not have the essential properties
51:0451:04 - the essential characteristics it is not the thing that we are talking about so there’s this blink here um I certainly
51:1151:11 - don’t know very much about this website I was just coming up with an example and I thought this page did a decent job um
51:1651:16 - you know this guy saying he’s not a philosopher Etc um but he’s using the example of circles right so if you draw
51:2351:23 - a circle over here like this one if you draw one on the other side of a page still a circle right location is what
51:3051:30 - we’re going to call an accidental trait of a circle right it’s not something that where if you change the location
51:3651:36 - something ceases to become a circle now if you draw one that’s blue right color is also not an essential trait of a
51:4251:42 - circle because you can have circles that are different colors and they’re all still circles right um so circles can have a lot of different accidental
51:4851:48 - traits but if you take this object right here this is not a circle right a circle
51:5551:55 - with four Four Corners can you have a circle with Corners no now you don’t have a circle anymore you have a square
52:0052:00 - because round is an essential trait of a circle so I don’t want to overly belabor the point I don’t want to stick it off
52:0652:06 - in the weeds of philosophy but we’re just talking a little bit about well what does it mean for something to have essential characteristics what is
52:1352:13 - Essence that sort of thing now where this kind of comes more on topic for us is when people argue about is God’s
52:2152:21 - infinity and his perfect character are these essential characteristics of God that is God not be God if he didn’t have
52:2852:28 - these characteristics now I’m mostly introducing this because people argue about this my opinion is that wandering
52:3552:35 - too far in this direction rapidly leads one to something called theosophy which is usually kind of a pejorative way of
52:4152:41 - saying you’re off in the philosophical Weeds about something in theology when you should just accept what the Bible says and move on right so God is
52:4952:49 - infinite and god is perfect in character so why are we arguing about this stuff right does it matter what does it mean
52:5652:56 - if this is an essential characteristic of God or not right I think a lot of the times people get off in the Weeds about this and it doesn’t do much productive
53:0353:03 - that’s my n equals one opinion here now if someone in this were to wh that I’m kind of question dodging and I’m not
53:0853:08 - defining my terms I’m just using things I would say that God’s nature deals with
53:1353:13 - his infinite abilities and God’s character deals with his moral perfection and both are fundamental
53:1953:19 - parts of who he is as God um I don’t know if that would uh
53:2553:25 - you know if that would satisfy all potential critics and I’m quite frankly not all that interested in satisfying
53:3153:31 - potential critics here we are talking about who God really is not whether it conforms to a specific philosophical
53:3853:38 - framework or you know a definition of terms as this philosopher this
53:4353:43 - philosopher say Plato or Kant or whoever else uses these terms we’re interested about who God really is and that is kind
53:4953:49 - of what’s governing in our conversation here so um I’m sorry that’s maybe a little bit unsatisfying I’m more raising
53:5553:55 - this to say we’re not going to go too far into some of the philosophical weeds
54:0154:01 - here we’re going to keep it at the surface level about who God really is what his abilities are what that says
54:0654:06 - about his nature and his moral perfection in his character um so nature his infinite nature and his perfect
54:1254:12 - character those are the uh the next lessons that we’re actually going to do um but I’m just kind of opening up that
54:1854:18 - that’s what we care about when we talk about the essence of God we don’t have to twist ourselves into pretzels trying
54:2454:24 - to satisfy secular philosophers because what we’re interested in is who God is not necessarily the philosophical
54:3154:31 - specifics and the technical terms and well how does this interact with Plato’s conception of the forms or whatever
54:3654:36 - right we don’t need to go there because it’s not really useful for enhancing our understanding of God does that make
54:4254:42 - sense a do you have more to say here yeah I’ll just say that um one problem
54:4854:48 - with people like aquinus and all the others was was that they were doing philosophy they weren’t you know
54:5554:55 - particularly engaging in Bible study they were trying to
55:0055:00 - understand the scriptures they were trying to philosophize about God that’s a different thing Al
55:0655:06 - together there is very much because the human mind is naturally arrogant um
55:1255:12 - there’s always so much we think we can we can we can break God we can figure him out and all of that but what we do
55:1955:19 - here is Bible study we’re trying to to you know um understand what the Bible
55:2655:26 - says about God so we will be seeking to understand what the Bible says about
55:3255:32 - God’s Essence and as far as that goes we’re not talking about essential characteristics we’re talking about what
55:4155:41 - God is and that is this we’ve already talked about a big part of that that
55:4755:47 - what God is at his core what and here’s the thing I I often like to use the term
55:5355:53 - deity to to make sure that everyone understands that I’m not talking about the identity of the person that has that
56:0156:01 - quality of deity I’m talking about the quality itself so what makes deity deity is what
56:0956:09 - we’re talking about on the one hand which we have already talked about it’s the fact that deity is the is it it
56:1656:16 - never began to exist it will never cease to exist now that very word that very I
56:2456:24 - will be what I am I am what I am I I am what I will be all of these things they
56:3256:32 - refer to the to the both the independent existence that is the self-existence of
56:3856:38 - that which possesses deity and also speaks to a lot of there there are implications that is what I
56:4456:44 - mean there are there are implications of this self-existence if something self exists
56:5156:51 - it will necessarily possess certain qualities those qualities that it possesses are
56:5756:57 - what we are going to discuss and we’re not talking about it from a philos philosophical standpoint what we’re saying um is this what it is is must it
57:0657:06 - be so couldn’t it be no what we’re talking about is what the scriptures actually say about be that’s it I agree
57:1357:13 - and I will say that as an occupational hazard I have read a fair bit of philosophy I was a Classics major I
57:1957:19 - enjoyed it for my part kept in its proper place but I have bumped into problems time starting to question
57:2657:26 - things about the mechanics of something or trying to fit it in a framework where I’ve pestered Dr lugan with questions
57:3357:33 - and eventually he more or less tells me okay this thing that you’re trying to do you’re starting with this framework over
57:4157:41 - here rather than starting with the Bible I mean he says it way nicer than that but more or less our responsibility as
57:4757:47 - Christians as Believers is we need to start with the Bible we need to strive to understand and interpret the Bible we
57:5357:53 - don’t start with a phrase fror and then try to like fit the Bible into that right like that’s going about it backwards right um this Probably sounds
58:0158:01 - like well okay Stephen of course but it’s actually a lot easier than you think to kind of fall into a pattern of
58:0758:07 - thought where you get hung up on things that you would never get from the Bible
58:1358:13 - if you just read the Bible try to understand the Bible make sense of the Bible it’s because you’re starting
58:1858:18 - somewhere else right and that’s when you get off in the Weeds about things and so I just wanted to emphasize this point up
58:2458:24 - front that what we are talking about in all of this is who God is who the Bible
58:2958:29 - says God is right and what that means and his his characteristics his abilities um speaking as deity right
58:3658:36 - that’s as Audi said rather than getting caught up in all of these pointless debates where we’re not even really
58:4258:42 - arguing about what the Bible says anymore now we’re just I don’t even know what we’re talking about right um so
58:4758:47 - yeah we’re not going to do that and according to some people that will mean that we didn’t quote unquote do a thorough job or whatever but whatever
58:5458:54 - because we’re starting with the Bible we’re going to stick with the Bible and we’re going to talk about what the Bible has to say in terms of God’s
59:0059:00 - characteristics um both in his infinity and his moral perfection and that is all
59:0559:05 - we’re going to talk about because that’s all that should matter to us
59:1159:11 - um all right so that brings to a close this first uh lesson that we’ve done
59:1759:17 - here so we started out talking about how God is being he is The Great I Am uh the
59:2359:23 - one who is or sorry who was and is and is to come the almighty right God is separate God is existence and we talked
59:3159:31 - about some of the implications of that for what it means to be a self-existing being um right God is the uncaused cause
59:3859:38 - that comes up in these things that philosoph Phil philosophers argue about but from our perspective what we care
59:4459:44 - about is that this is who God tells us he is God exists independent from the universe has always existed and his
59:5159:51 - existence is not in any way conditional upon creation and then we talked some uh
59:5659:56 - a good bit actually about light and Glory light as the idea of God being
1:00:011:00:01 - unapproachable AI articulated uh that the father is the face the the
1:00:071:00:07 - representational deity if you will in the Trinity and we talked some about christophanies in the Old Testament and
1:00:131:00:13 - how these things interact with the veiled glory of God and how there will come a time on that uh that great day of
1:00:201:00:20 - days so the day of the Lord Paradigm in interpretation when that will be removed
1:00:251:00:25 - and every knee will bow and every tongue will confess so talking about light and Glory as manifestations of God’s uh
1:00:321:00:32 - Essence his identity his deity and then finally we closed here kind of talking a little bit about how we’re going to be
1:00:381:00:38 - focusing our approach on scripture what the Bible says and so there are some terms thrown about here in terms of
1:00:451:00:45 - ontology uh that kind of get off in the weeds of philosophy um and so we are going to try to concern ourselves with
1:00:521:00:52 - what the Bible says and how the Bible Des describes God in terms of his characteristics and his Essence and only
1:00:591:00:59 - concern oursel with that and so this was how we kind of introduced oursel uh easing into this study here in Bible
1:01:061:01:06 - basics part one uh the study of God and in coming lessons we will be talking about God’s infinite nature and also
1:01:141:01:14 - God’s moral perfection uh God’s perfect character so those are the things that we will pick up with next
God’s Infinite Nature
Video
Summary
This lesson, we are going to be talking about God’s infinite nature, and what that means in terms of His abilities.
Timestamps
0:000:00 - Intro and outline
02:0102:01 - Introduction: God’s infinite nature
02:5702:57 - God is Spiritual
09:4709:47 - If mankind is at present “a little lower than the angels”, why do angels desire physical bodies like ours?
16:0516:05 - God is Eternal
23:4023:40 - Angels are subject to time
24:2824:28 - The relationship between future prophecy and the time continuum
30:0330:03 - God is Immeasurable (in a spatial sense)
35:3835:38 - God is Unique
50:1750:17 - God is Omnipotent
51:2051:20 - “Could God create a rock so big even He couldn’t lift it?”
01:08:1601:08:16 - God is Omniscient
01:08:5701:08:57 - God’s knowledge of hypotheticals
01:21:5801:21:58 - God is Omnipresent
01:26:4501:26:45 - Summary and outro
Content
(Derived from https://ichthys.com/1Theo.htm)
Introduction: God’s infinite nature
Key point: God’s nature is infinite. Infinite.
God’s infinity – infinity in every way and according to any conceivable true standard – is a clarifying concept, illuminating His abilities.
God is Spiritual
God’s being transcends the physical universe. He is not limited or bounded by material issues or concerns. God is not subject to matter in any way. God is not made of matter – God created matter and employs it however He desires.
If mankind is at present “a little lower than the angels”, why do angels desire physical bodies like ours?
This is a video-only section.
Compare Hebrews 2:6-8.
God is Eternal
God’s being transcends time. He is not limited or bounded by temporal issues or concerns. God is not subject to time in any way. God is not constrained by time – God created time and employs it however He desires.
Angels are subject to time
This is a video-only section.
The relationship between future prophecy and the time continuum
This is a video-only section.
Were prophets actually transported into the future (i.e., plucked from one point in the “river of time” and dropped at another as an observer), or did they just have visions of the future (i.e., see visions of it like a movie)?
God is Immeasurable (in a spatial sense)
God’s being transcends space. He is not limited or bounded by spatial issues or concerns. God is not subject to space in any way. God is not confined by space – God created space and employs it however He desires.
God is Unique
Uniqueness comes from God’s infinite nature. No one else in the universe can reasonably be compared to Him. He is absolutely unique within His own creation, and therefore the one Person to whom all honor is due.
From the standpoint of His transcendence of the physical universe, He is unique by virtue of His spirituality, eternity and immeasurability. From the standpoint of His supremacy within the physical universe, He is unique by virtue of His omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence.
| Essential Quality | Manifesting in creation as |
|---|---|
| Being spiritual (rather than bound by matter) | Omnipotence (God may affect material creation however he pleases) |
| Being eternal (rather than bound by time) | Omniscience (God knows everything in creation from beginning to end, and even what could have been) |
| Being immeasurable (rather than bound by space) | Omnipresence (God is ever-present in creation: as far as the East is from the West, nothing can separate us from God) |
While we may not be properly able to fully grasp God’s true nature since we are small, finite beings bound by spacetime, it should nonetheless be clearly apparent that it is not possible for any created creature to compare with the Creator. Even creatures far more powerful than ourselves—Satan and the other angels—are bound and limited in ways God is not, leaving God completely alone and unique in His transcendence of and supremacy within the physical universe.
God is Omnipotent
God is all-powerful, irrespective of matter. He can effect anything He desires in the material realm, and nothing can transpire apart from His will. Therefore there is no deed (nor was there ever, nor will there ever be) which God is unable to do, small or great.
“Could God create a rock so big even He couldn’t lift it?”
You may have come across something like “So, could God create a rock so big even He couldn’t lift it?” This is (supposedly) pitting two aspects of omnipotence against each other: God’s ability to create anything He wishes ex nihilo, and God’s strength.
People argue that the two superlatives mandated by omnipotence contradict each other. Supposedly, if God cannot create an object too heavy for Him to lift, he is not omnipotent, because an omnipotent creature would be able to create anything. And likewise, if there would exist some object that God could create but was unable to lift, then He also would not be omnipotent, because an omnipotent creature would be able to lift everything. “See!”, they say, “either way, He cannot do something; therefore, He is not omnipotent!”
We can let people who wish to not believe on account such an argument go on their merry way. We needn’t take them up on the debate. For it is obvious that God can both create whatsoever He wishes, and also manipulate His creation in whatever ways He wishes. The idea of a material object He cannot create is definitionally impossible, and so too a material object He cannot manipulate. Put differently, there is no such thing as an object He could create but not lift, or an object He could lift but not create. So the entire objection is circular by assuming such a thing can exist to begin with. That is, they’ve already put God in a box from the very beginning, and then only proceed to smugly knock down nothing but a straw man.
My counsel would be to avoid all such nonsense. God can do “it”, whatever “it” may be. Always. We follow אֵל שַׁדַּי, El Shaddai, God Almighty, He who was, and is, and is to come—He who holds the strings of the universe in His hands, and can create or annihilate galaxies in the blink of an eye. And we’d better fear that power and majesty as we ought, to keep our lives in perspective. We are tiny compared to the vastness of the Earth, much less our solar system, much less our galaxy, much less the universe. But God is even bigger (infinitely bigger), and could snuff them all out in the blink of an eye if He decided to. That is the kind of power in view when we speak of God being omnipotent. Not that He will actually snuff out the universe on a whim, but that it would be nothing for Him to do so, since He is in complete control of matter, time, and space… and things only exist because He causes them to exist.
God is Omniscient
God is all-knowing, irrespective of time. He can effect anything He desires in the temporal realm. Therefore God knows (has always known, and always will know) everything, the end from the beginning. As the Everlasting One (Ps.90:2; 90:4), His knowledge of every event that ever has or will or even could occur within His creation is comprehensive and absolute.
God’s knowledge of hypotheticals
The “could occur” bit is important. God’s knowledge of all possible hypotheticals is sometimes discussed in terms of so-called “Molinism” and “middle knowledge”. I prefer to discuss it independent from all the baggage there, however.
Here’s an example: since the Bible says that God will never test us past what we can bear (1 Corinthians 10:13), then that implies He knows what we would and would not be able to bear. He wouldn’t be able to perfectly test us to refine our faith unless He knew all information like this.
Same deal with perfectly disciplining us, and plenty of other matters besides. Put simply, God’s perfect foreordination of all things logically requires that He know everything about all potential paths in the mind-bogglingly complex decision tree that spans the history of the entire universe. It has always puzzled me why people would ever think to argue against such a notion, but alas, some people do for some reason. Perhaps it is because such a belief requires one to appreciate how truly “big” and unlike us (with our very finite perspective) God really is?
For now, you should mostly ignore the fact that some people have again put God in a box in their minds, and content yourself with the sure confidence that God knows everything—absolutely everything, inclusive of our free-will decisions before we even make them—and is so infinitely wise as to have perfectly mapped out all of creature history before the universe was even created. There is a Perfect Divine Plan being worked out around us, and God knows very well what He is doing, rest assured.
God is Omnipresent
God is ever-present, irrespective of space. He can effect anything He desires in the spatial realm (Job 26:7). Therefore God has the ability (has always had, and always will have) to be anywhere and everywhere, local and universal.
Of particular note is that this means God sees all. Nobody can sneak anything past God, and on that Great Day of Days, all will be revealed. It also means it is completely futile to try to run away from God. Like Jonah, we will find that no matter where we go, God and His purposes for us will always be there too.
Video/audio transcript
0:000:00 - all right guys so this week we are picking up and we are going to be talking about God’s infinite nature so
0:060:06 - last time we met we were talking about the essence of God in general uh so I don’t have the slides up but we did talk
0:130:13 - about how God is The Great I Am God is being uh we talked about uh light and
0:190:19 - Glory as manifestations of God’s resplendant and we also talked about kind of the difference between nature
0:260:26 - and Essence and uh kind of waved our hands a bit and said you know what but we for the purposes of this study are
0:320:32 - just going to be explaining who God is from the Bible and we’re going to not worry so much about some of the technical terms and the arguments that
0:390:39 - philosophers have about these things we’re just going to talk about God in terms of how the Bible explains him to
0:450:45 - us and so picking up on that line this week we’re going to be starting out talking about God’s infinite nature um
0:520:52 - So within the study of IUS we have God’s infinite nature and God’s perfect
0:570:57 - character are kind of the subheadings that we’re going to be going through uh next in our sequence here and this week
1:021:02 - is God’s infinite nature so here are the sub points that we’re going to be going through we’re going to start out just
1:081:08 - the general introduction that he’s infinite and what that means for us going to talk about how God is spiritual
1:141:14 - Eternal and immeasurable in a spatial sense and then we’re going to talk about how these things uh essential attributes
1:201:20 - of God make God unique um and he’s also unique because of how they manifest in
1:261:26 - creation and so that’s where the omnipotence the omniscience and the omnipresent comes from and so that’s the
1:311:31 - general structure of what we’re going to go through here today and um as we go um this middle section here about how God
1:381:38 - is unique this is the transition between these first three which are the
1:441:44 - so-called essential qualities of God um this is uh uh you know God independent
1:491:49 - from creation if you will and then the latter three are how these qualities manifest in how God relates to creation
1:561:56 - and so that’s kind of what the middle section there uh is is going
2:032:03 - through all right so that first point for us to make is simply this that God’s
2:092:09 - nature is infinite and this is actually a decidedly difficult concept for us as
2:142:14 - humans to understand because we as humans are not infinite now God’s Infinity which is infinity in every way
2:212:21 - and according to any conceivable true standard so it’s not like God’s just really big he’s not a super creature
2:282:28 - he’s not you know something that we can honestly contextualize we don’t have a reference for a being that is truly
2:352:35 - infinite but God’s Infinity for us uh is a clarifying Concept in that it
2:402:40 - illuminates his abilities so uh when we talk about God’s character which is what we’ll come next in the study we’ll talk
2:462:46 - about how God’s perfect character illuminates his motives um the reasons behind how he operates in creation but
2:532:53 - God’s Infinity illuminates his
2:582:58 - abilities so the first thing that we’re going to be talking about is about how God is
3:043:04 - spiritual and so in being spiritual God’s being transcends the physical Universe he’s not limited or bounded by
3:123:12 - material concerns or issues God is Not subject to matter in any way he’s not
3:173:17 - made of matter because God created matter and employs it however he desires
3:223:22 - and so this is the first of these essential qualities that we’re talking about so uh spiritual Eternal and
3:283:28 - immeasurable those are the three we’re going through first and this one is talking specifically about matter and so
3:343:34 - when we say matter we’re talking about the things that are created in the material universe so the world and
3:403:40 - everything in it uh the second and third Heavens if you will that’s how the Bible describes them so uh you know our solar
3:463:46 - system the galaxies everything in the universe that has substance is what
3:513:51 - we’re getting at here and when we say that God is spiritual God is separate from that he is separate from that which
3:583:58 - has been created um the stuff if you will in the universe because he is a
4:034:03 - completely spiritual being now one thing that I thought maybe it would be good for us to talk about just a little bit
4:104:10 - is how God being spiritual is different than Angels being spiritual and so aie
4:164:16 - um I know that’s a little bit jumping ahead in the Systematic Theology uh Dr L has an entire section of the study
4:214:21 - dedicated to Angels but do you have anything you want to say on regards to God’s spirituality versus uh Angels
4:284:28 - which aren’t quite the same as us and how they relate to SpaceTime yeah I do um I want to say
4:364:36 - first of all that uh if anything is created it’s made of
4:434:43 - stuff and the Lord is not created so he’s not made of stuff so when we think
4:504:50 - in terms of spirit we might be feeling like this is other than material and there is some
4:574:57 - sense to that but it is not strictly correct MH because everything that
5:045:04 - exists is made of stuff so it is all really material in a sense of speaking
5:115:11 - and that’s actually why we’re not looking forward to a smokey hazy sort of
5:185:18 - heaven or oops well we’ll see if he comes back in a sec yeah it’s it’s smok
5:245:24 - sort of heaven or the new universe a place where you know things are not
5:305:30 - Material that’s not the idea we we saw that um Angels
5:355:35 - could take in food even though the Lord could as well you know when he um came
5:425:42 - to visit with Abraham with the angels we saw that they could interact with matter and um physical matter and uh they could
5:515:51 - eat food and they could have all of these experiences we have Genesis 6 that talks about um The Rebel Angels um creat
5:595:59 - the Nephilim with human women and all of that so that suggests to us that they’re
6:056:05 - made of a different sort of material than the rest of the universe
6:116:11 - is but it is still material that’s the idea but the Lord when we say that the
6:176:17 - Lord is spiritual we’re necessarily saying that he is not
6:226:22 - Material so the his spirituality is essentially in contrast to the Universe
6:306:30 - the spirituality of the Angels is not in contrast to the universe it’s in contrast to other material things other
6:376:37 - physical things and um the way that the Bible presents it it keeps using the word that is also translatable as wind
6:466:46 - we find that kind of issue with different um modern translations instead
6:516:51 - of saying Spirit they would say wind and in some places instead of seeing not just modern translations I think even the KJV have that issue so in some
6:586:58 - places you will see spirit in some places you would see wind because the word is not really
7:047:04 - distinguishable from each other the idea here is that just as wind does have an
7:097:09 - effect on matter around it and yet you can’t see it you can’t really touch it
7:157:15 - it’s not tangible that’s how these creatures are so the spirituality of
7:217:21 - angels is in contrast to the other material Creations in the universe in
7:267:26 - fact um this is one way to look at it that unless man had been created angels
7:337:33 - would have been the only thing of their kind in the entire universe every other thing had either Flesh and Bones if they
7:407:40 - were animals or they had a physicality to them that the Angels did not have it
7:467:46 - classed them separately from everything that existed so when Man was created note what the Bible says that he was
7:527:52 - made a little lower than the Angels that’s actually speaking to the fact that man was more like all creatures of
7:587:58 - the Earth that he was like the Angels so the spirituality of the Angels
8:058:05 - was essentially to set them apart from everything else that God had made and spirituality of God is to contrast God
8:128:12 - as a thing with the universe as a and so that
8:188:18 - was the essential point that we’re trying to draw a contrast between here and I think you did a good job explaining it that God’s spirituality is
8:258:25 - completely distinct from anything that’s created so humans are creatures angels are
8:318:31 - creatures both have been created by the Creator who is external to that which is
8:378:37 - created um and maybe that sounds really technical but I think ai’s done a good job explaining uh some of the points
8:438:43 - just a couple other things to bring up in regards to this um Angels this physicality aspect is one of the reasons
8:508:50 - why Genesis 6 was a thing it’s one of the reasons why Angels um inhabit some
8:568:56 - of the creatures in the gospels you know like going into the pigs um it uh you
9:019:01 - know that that word actually gets transliterated a lot of different ways but the gines or the gines um uh at that
9:099:09 - particular instance is angels have this desire for physicality um Dr lugan Bill
9:149:14 - um uh discusses this in various parts of his studies and the other point that I
9:199:19 - wanted to bring up in regards to this is that before humans were even created in the universe uh the universe had been
9:269:26 - created and was inhabited by angels and so this is the the sons of God as they’re called I believe it’s
9:339:33 - in job somewhere you know talks about how the sons of God Sayang during creation right a angels have this
9:409:40 - materiality to them even though they are different than us but God is completely separate all right so with that I think
9:469:46 - we’re gonna take a question here and we’ll pick back up in a second all right so a good question that we just got was
9:529:52 - well if angels are already kind of of this different state than us why are
9:589:58 - they kind of uh uh looking down so to speak and if humans were created a
10:0310:03 - little lower than the Angels um aie was quoting that passage then why do angels want that um this physical experience um
10:1210:12 - and I I think my answer just to start us off and like I said I’ll certainly let others jump in is just that uh Angels
10:1910:19 - want things they don’t have and so if angels don’t have this the sensory
10:2410:24 - experience the actual physicality now um I should note that it’s a little bit
10:3010:30 - dangerous for us to get too off in the Weeds about saying well Angels did this for this and that reason you know the
10:3510:35 - Bible doesn’t talk so explicitly about some of this um Dr lell has done a good job on this explaining um hypotheses for
10:4310:43 - the motivations here um so for example uh before the universe was uh destroyed
10:4910:49 - and remade um he hypothesizes certain things about angels kind of messing with the genetic code of the creatures the
10:5710:57 - the fauna on the pre reconstruction Earth um as well as um Angels Desiring
11:0311:03 - the bodies of of you know things generally speaking as it shows up in the gospels and uh my initial answer would
11:1011:10 - just be because it’s something that they lack and sort of Grass Is Always Greener sentiment is because of that that’s why
11:1711:17 - even though uh you know having this this Mortal coil to use that phrasing that
11:2311:23 - the KJV does makes us weaker and less powerful we still have that sensory EXP
11:2911:29 - ER and that’s something that the Angels wanted to experience themselves iose aie
11:3411:34 - do you have thoughts to on top of that I think you really actually said what the
11:4011:40 - issue is every time we’re tempted the idea is that what we don’t have is better than what we do have um so why
11:4611:46 - would they want it well because they didn’t trust that God gave them what they should have that what they had was
11:5311:53 - good and that God had you know put them in the right state for
11:5811:58 - them to be and that’s why this whole fight we have is a fight of Faith a fight of trusting that what God does is
12:0512:05 - good that that he loves us and that what he gives for us gives to us is good for us it’s exactly what happened with um
12:1212:12 - Adam and Eve they had the Fountain of wisdom himself coming to walk with them
12:1812:18 - every evening they had a perfect garden everything was great but somehow they thought that the
12:2712:27 - one thing that God said that that’s not good for you was what they needed more
12:3312:33 - than anything once Satan suggested it to them so the fact that anyone wants
12:4112:41 - something no matter how wise powerful smart or whatever they might be does not
12:4612:46 - in any way indicate that that thing was actually better for them than what they had it’s not at all a way to think about
12:5412:54 - things so yeah the Angels wanted it simply because they could
12:5912:59 - not because there was anything to suggest that they what what they had was not Superior to what they were looking
13:0513:05 - for I mean to a certain extent this is the irrationality of sin I know I’ve
13:1113:11 - explained it this way I don’t want to get super philosophical about it but when the Bible calls Jesus the Divine
13:1713:17 - logos you know that word meaning reason I mean it means many things in Greek but
13:2213:22 - God’s universe is ordered and logical and fundamentally all sin is irrational
13:2713:27 - and so the question of why did the angelss seem to desire something that’s lower than the estate that they
13:3313:33 - currently possess it seems kind of like mad right well why does Satan rebel
13:3813:38 - against God why do any of us rebel against God um maybe that isn’t the most
13:4413:44 - intellectually satisfying of answers but it really does get to the heart of this I think is that just because angels are uh you know
13:5313:53 - bigger and smarter than us so to speak doesn’t mean that they don’t suffer from the same spiritual blindness than we do
13:5813:58 - and that’s spiritual blindness causes us to do things that a more objective third party Observer would say are irrational
14:0514:05 - um and in this particular case this is one such instance where by all accounts elect Angels don’t have this same uh
14:1214:12 - desire temptation to do all of this and so it’s it’s just transgression of the
14:1814:18 - created order in a matter that we would term irrational um so I think that is
14:2314:23 - kind of the the way in which we ought to approach this issue um not so much that the angels are doing it for any great
14:3014:30 - purpose like there there there isn’t more behind it in a plan as it’s something that they don’t have that they
14:3614:36 - want and uh sin is always in some sense irrationally breaking God’s natural
14:4314:43 - order yeah yeah I would say that I actually find the answer pretty intellectually satisfying myself because
14:5014:50 - all it all it says really is we always want some because we think it’s better than
14:5614:56 - what we have and that that’s just true we have that experience all the time it’s very rare for people to go I want
15:0315:03 - something and that something is a change of of the order the state in which you are and it’s not because as you don’t
15:1015:10 - think that what you want is better than what you’re what you currently have I mean it’s we have too many if we were to
15:1815:18 - to go into all the experiences that demonstrate this we probably spend the whole night from this and there is no
15:2315:23 - need for that so we could move on at I think
15:3015:30 - all right so with that I think that’s where we’re going to stop on our initial discussion of how God being spiritual
15:3615:36 - means he is set apart distinct from the universe uh he transcends it in a way
15:4215:42 - that even angels do not even though angels are above us in station for the
15:4715:47 - time being as Hebrews talks about is that God even more than that because he
15:5215:52 - is not a created being because he’s not a created creature God is completely separate from matter and that makes him
16:0016:00 - unique in this characteristic as we will see for all of the other things that we talk about
16:0716:07 - next all right so next we are going to be talking about how God is eternal and so what we just spent time covering was
16:1416:14 - how God uh is not bound by matter or the material Universe uh because God is
16:1916:19 - spiritual and now we’re talking about how God is not bound by time so God’s being transcends time he’s not limited
16:2616:26 - or bounded by temporal issues or concerns God is Not subject to time in any way God is Not constrained by time
16:3416:34 - because God created time and employs it however he desires and so this is one of
16:4016:40 - those things where again we as humans are just going to have a hard time wrapping our heads around exactly what
16:4616:46 - it means to be outside of time because it’s not a state in which we have any personal experience in uh plus when you
16:5316:53 - say something like before time even existed the concept of before is
16:5916:59 - inherently wrapped up in time right um if we view time as kind of like a line then before is like more left on the
17:0517:05 - line well for a being that’s outside of time there is no before there is no after because time is not something that
17:1317:13 - that being is bound by and this is really hard for us to wrap in our minds um I would not feel discouraged if
17:2017:20 - thinking about this sometimes causes you to get confused because it confuses me um it’s just not even something that we
17:2717:27 - honestly need to worry ourselves about to the greatest degree we just need to
17:3317:33 - understand that some of the concerns that test us and temper Us in life about
17:3817:38 - not seeing how things are going to play out about this uncertain future about not knowing how the chips are going to
17:4417:44 - fall God is Not constrained in that same way God’s plan sees from the very
17:5017:50 - beginning to the very end of of the history of the universe it sees everything uh in in an instant God
17:5617:56 - planned everything before the initial events of creation were ever set in motion and that is very foreign to our
18:0318:03 - limited way of thinking because we think on imperfect information but God does not and so this is what we mean by God
18:1018:10 - being Eternal is that he sees the beginning from or sorry the end from the beginning he is simply not bound by the
18:1718:17 - constraints of time that we are a you have points you want to bring up in reference to
18:2318:23 - this yeah sure um I think the very first thing that we want to know is what time
18:2918:29 - is uh physicists are having a hard time actually explaining what time is especially since um
18:3618:36 - Einstein basically blew everybody’s mind when he made it clear that time was not a constant when he discovered that time
18:4418:44 - was not the constant it was thought to be well time is really the measure of
18:5018:50 - change and God doesn’t change so obviously there was nothing to
18:5718:57 - measure that change if time exists for a being that does not change it is
19:0219:02 - actually a nonsensical concept it really does not mean anything you know so um
19:1119:11 - the first thing I would say is that the very meaning of time does not apply to God since it’s actually the measure of
19:1619:16 - change and um the second thing I would say is that God’s
19:2219:22 - eternality is explained entirely by the fact that he is that which is
19:2919:29 - so there is no was with God in the sense of him because if you look to God’s past
19:3819:38 - what you see is the same thing that you see now and if you look to his future
19:4319:43 - what you see is the same thing that you see now there is no transformation in the state of his existence but that does
19:5019:50 - not mean that because God is outside and and when we use that that
19:5719:57 - that word it’s it we have to construct we have to create mental constructs for trying to make sense of God so when we
20:0420:04 - say outside of time we have this feeling like there is a box in which time
20:1020:10 - operates and God exists outside of it but God is
20:1620:16 - acting he is doing things and when he does
20:2220:22 - things there’s a question um there’s a question how how does his doing things
20:3020:30 - interact with the fact that time exists outside of or that time does not
20:3720:37 - affect him is he not actually doing something create basically changing
20:4220:42 - something and uh that is where I would bring in the analogy of uh the software engineer and his and his um software
20:5020:50 - he’s he’s changing states without actually being affected in any way by those changes he might put create an an
20:5820:58 - input in a particular program he has um designed and he gets a certain output he
21:0321:03 - might make changes the state of the program and all of that but he himself is not in any way Changed by it
21:1021:10 - so we we the creatures that God made have had to have a context within which
21:1621:16 - we exist he does not need context he does not need anything in himself he is
21:2221:22 - perfectly complete so eternity in fact
21:2721:27 - is is just like um uh would I say space eternity is like
21:3521:35 - an expression of him rather than something that that he exists within
21:4221:42 - that is it it it is his own type of time no eternity is actually like this is an
21:4821:48 - aspect of myself that’s what it is so likewise for us to appreciate God’s
21:5621:56 - eternality we we first of all appreciate first that he does not change and
22:0222:02 - therefore time is meaningless to him to the quality of his existence there’s no change to measure but in order to
22:1122:11 - interact with us and to bring about the state of things that he wants he has
22:1722:17 - created time to allow us to exist exist within a certain context and to work out
22:2422:24 - what he has intended so time for us it is for our
22:3022:30 - benefit otherwise we couldn’t make sense of life right and I think fundamentally
22:3522:35 - the point is that time is created God created time right it’s not like it’s some aspect within which he works like
22:4222:42 - you said um because it is fundamentally tied up with existence like you brought up time is something that was created as
22:5022:50 - part of the creation of the universe you know bringing back up the physicist there’s this thing relativity is this
22:5522:55 - idea of space is linked to time the two things are not unrelated it is very much
23:0123:01 - part of creation and again we have a really hard time understanding exactly what that means for God not having that
23:0823:08 - but it is just very important for us to emphasize that God is not bound by it
23:1323:13 - because God created it um and really I think that is more or less the gist of
23:1923:19 - what we have to say on this matter is simply that even though it’s hard for us to understand and conceptualize God is
23:2523:25 - separate from time um and that means that how he approaches the sequence of
23:3023:30 - events that happen in the material universe is very fundamentally different from how we as fly night creatures who
23:3623:36 - don’t have that don’t have that externality to time can approach things
23:4223:42 - um all right uh good question here well observation question um so first off
23:4823:48 - angels are subject to time um we spent a good bit of the last uh point that we were discussing talking about how God’s
23:5423:54 - spirituality is fundamentally different than angels and that angels are still material they’re in the material
24:0024:00 - creation well so too with time Angels they don’t see the future um so to speak they are not outside of time they are
24:0724:07 - within time space or SpaceTime time space isn’t a word SpaceTime just how we
24:1224:12 - are and so that makes them again more similar to us than they are to God in this even though Angels uh have
24:1824:18 - different capabilities than we do um uh they are different creatures with different Natures than we have they are
24:2524:25 - nonetheless still created creatures within SpaceTime and an interesting observation also related to this idea of
24:3424:34 - how time works and and God’s externality to it is this idea of future Prophecy in the Bible um and so uh sometimes it’s
24:4224:42 - just people are told what’s are are told what’s going to happen uh God tells them
24:4724:47 - what is going to happen sorry um future events but when we have this case of Visions um so uh we might think about
24:5524:55 - John with the Book of Revelation for example was it just that John was given I don’t
25:0125:01 - know like a movie so to speak of what was going to happen in the future or was John actually transported into the
25:0725:07 - future thereby seeing the events that were going to happen uh I I I don’t want
25:1225:12 - to like punt on the question to me it sort of doesn’t seem like the answer matters um because either way in the
25:2125:21 - Book of Revelation we are being given um this description of future events
25:2625:26 - whether that is John was simply given to see the manifestation of what would
25:3225:32 - happen or whether he was actually somehow transported picked up from um if you view time as a stream picked up from
25:3925:39 - one place in the Stream and put in a futured place in the Stream and then brought back I don’t think it really
25:4425:44 - changes the the essence of the fact that the vision that Jon saw was the future
25:5125:51 - um Audie do you think that it has an impact should should we take a stand on
25:5625:56 - this yeah I I don’t I don’t think it really matters it’s it’s an interesting
26:0226:02 - question and uh there there are all sorts of interesting questions out there even with us me personally and pro
26:1126:11 - Robert has has also confessed to having questions of All Sorts that the Bible
26:1626:16 - does not actually give answers to uh I do remember how Ezekiel said that um he
26:2326:23 - the spirit lifted him by the the locks of his head and um took him to such and
26:2926:29 - such a place and he saw this and he saw that and all of that so it’s almost like they were transported forward in time to
26:3526:35 - see things happening as they unfolded now I don’t really know or particularly
26:4026:40 - care the reason for that is this we know that God has control of time whether he
26:4726:47 - can pick you up from the present and transport you to the Future so that you witness things happening or he actually
26:5426:54 - shows you things as they will happen in the future before they actually happen I
27:0027:00 - don’t think it makes that big of a difference we know that God controls
27:0627:06 - time he controls it and we have two um demonstrations in the Bible of God’s
27:1327:13 - control of time he W time back when he was uh speaking to ahaz the king who was
27:2127:21 - an unrighteous king of Judah who didn’t want to listen to reason and uh Isaiah said well this is how God will
27:2827:28 - demonstrate to you that what he has said will happen he caus the sun dial to go back 10° um then there was Joshua who
27:3627:36 - was fighting um I think it was the amalekites he was fighting I don’t remember that whom he was fighting
27:4327:43 - anymore but during that uh battle he basically paused time now how that could
27:5127:51 - possibly happen that time would pause and everything would keep going as it was I mean
27:5827:58 - go knock yourself out with the physics of it but it did happen that’s what the Bible says so all of that tells us that
28:0628:06 - God does have the power to do whatever he wants with time and as for space the
28:1328:13 - Lord Jesus could show up at any place whenever he wanted after he rose from the dead and you couldn’t keep him out
28:2028:20 - with locked doors so when you take all of that into account there is nothing too hard for the Lord he could totally
28:2828:28 - cause a profet to time travel but I’m not sure knowing that he did or didn’t do it is going to really make that of a
28:3728:37 - difference to our understanding of the scriptures or of him we do know that his power is absolute so y I think that is
28:4428:44 - probably the best answer for us on this is just either way I it does not really
28:5028:50 - affect the fact that God is in complete control of time um and it’s not bad to
28:5528:55 - ask questions what I would call questions of curiosity how how exactly does this work you know what does it
29:0129:01 - mean for XYZ if the Bible doesn’t talk about it um there are certain things
29:0729:07 - that we just can’t take hard firm positions on that doesn’t mean that they aren’t interesting in some respects but
29:1229:12 - it also kind of means that maybe it’s not something that we’re given to know and that means that usually I would say
29:1829:18 - as a rule of thumb it’s dangerous to spend lots of time on these things just because uh not that there’s anything
29:2429:24 - wrong being curious or asking questions but if it was something that we needed to know God would have given us
29:2929:29 - information on it right um simple as that so um I think it’s a very
29:3429:34 - interesting question of were prophets actually transported into the future or did they just see visions of the future
29:3929:39 - how does that work uh who knows either way God is in complete control of the flow of time
29:4729:47 - um so I think that’s a good place for us here so just how God is in complete control of matter and uh all of the
29:5329:53 - material things in the universe God is in complete control of time because he is Eternal and separate from it and next
29:5929:59 - we’ll be talking about the same deal except for
30:0530:05 - space all right so uh as we just said next we’re just going to be talking about the exact same sort of concept
30:1130:11 - that we have been with matter and time except now with regards to space so God’s being transcends space he’s not
30:1830:18 - limited or bounded by spatial issues or concerns he’s not subject to space in any way and again God is Not confined by
30:2530:25 - space because he created it and employs it however he desires so we have the
30:3030:30 - same idea of God being the Creator the one outside of creation who has the
30:3630:36 - strings uh in his hand so to speak and so the idea that God is somehow Bound by
30:4230:42 - this thing that he himself made is just completely nonsensical on the face of it um and so AI brought up an example uh
30:5030:50 - when we were just talking about Jesus uh not being bound by space after the resurrection and so uh the the gospels
30:5730:57 - are clear that the disciples were in a room with a locked door and then Jesus appeared among them um and so that’s
31:0331:03 - just an one example here um but uh you know this is what we mean by God not
31:0931:09 - being bound by space um also God uh can control things within space he can uh
31:1631:16 - you know do you know and and this is where it gets a little bit fuzzy if you squint you hard at the physics behind it
31:2231:22 - so uh matter and space and time they’re all related um in these equations that we don’t need to go into but the point
31:3031:30 - is all of it is creation and God is not bound by his creation and if you were to
31:3531:35 - summarize the three things that we’ve been talking about here matter time and space is that all of these things are
31:4131:41 - part of creation and God is not part of creation God exists before creation um
31:4831:48 - god well I I rather I should say God exists right that’s what his nature is
31:5331:53 - and God created what we now have around us and he’s not part of it and that’s really
31:5931:59 - the fundamental basis of all three of these is simply that God is not at all constrained by the things that constrain
32:0632:06 - Us in creation because he is not himself a created creature um you have anything
32:1232:12 - specifically related to space to bring up AI um I I I don’t think so but I
32:1832:18 - think you uh you make a very a very solid Point once you say look we’re
32:2632:26 - talking about that which isn’t created and I I like to make a bit of a
32:3132:31 - difference between um the deity of the Trinity and
32:3732:37 - the persons of the Trinity the reason I make that difference is this or the identity I think um the
32:4532:45 - identity of Trinity the identity of God and the deity of God the reason I like to make that difference is the thing
32:5232:52 - that makes a thing God is simply the isness of the thing the fact that
32:5732:57 - it just is there is no explanation for its existence there is no agent that
33:0633:06 - that speaks to why it exists nothing made it and nothing can affect its
33:1233:12 - existence you can’t change it in any way can’t affect it in any in any way that quality of
33:1933:19 - deity once we understand it makes everything make all the sense in the
33:2533:25 - world because then it can’t be creation creation does not possess that
33:3233:32 - quality and space does not possess that quality because black holes for
33:4033:40 - example there are weird things that happen we’ve been talking about the expans the expansion of of of the
33:4833:48 - universe because of how we are we are measuring um the red shifts I think
33:5433:54 - that’s what they call it yeah it’s red shift yeah so we’re measuring those things that tell us that something is happening
34:0134:01 - to the very fabric of the universe in which we exist everything that we see
34:0734:07 - changes it and change is a response to something external to whatever is
34:1234:12 - changing so if space itself is transforming then
34:1734:17 - space does not possess the quality of deity and that which possesses the quality of deity cannot be subject to
34:2334:23 - anything that is subject to change MH so
34:2934:29 - therefore we can we can comprehend all these arguments are essentially to say
34:3434:34 - look the Bible makes sense because when you think about it it makes sense that’s it so well consistent like you said with
34:4234:42 - drawing this distinction between deity being fundamentally distinct from creation um and creation cannot be deity
34:5134:51 - on this account um you know it’s sort of at least posted on the Forum you know I may get to that at some other point but this idea a that the universe is God is
34:5934:59 - complete garbage because the universe changes and God doesn’t change like just on the surface of it it doesn’t work
35:0535:05 - right um and that’s because God is being God is unchanging as AI has just brought
35:1135:11 - up makes it fundamentally distinct from everything that is created in creation
35:1635:16 - um including space right um so uh that’s a good that’s a good place to end our
35:2335:23 - initial introduction to these so next we’re going to be talking about how some of these attribut that we’ve discussed
35:2835:28 - here so the fact that God’s spiritual that he’s Eternal and that he’s immeasurable make God unique among
35:3435:34 - beings and so that’s what we’re going to turn to
35:4135:41 - next all right so when we say that God is unique this kind of might seem like a
35:4635:46 - no duh teaching well of course there’s only one God right you know we don’t believe in a Pantheon in fact there only
35:5335:53 - could be one God from a logical standpoint right um because if there are
35:5835:58 - more than one well were they all equally existent you have all these other sorts of issues and uh interestingly like
36:0436:04 - pantheons never seem to never seem to kind of handle that so well like do gods exist within other gods or they all kind
36:1136:11 - of if you squint hearted them enough they have what I would call uh existential logical issues with how they
36:1836:18 - work but not so for us because as we’ve just spent time discussing deity exists external to Creation God is not part of
36:2636:26 - creation God is being he’s existence he does not change and so all that to say
36:3236:32 - it should be sort of self-evident that well there’s only one being like that and that being is God and nothing that
36:3836:38 - is created is at all like him because this characteristic of deity like AI has just pointed out that is what makes God
36:4636:46 - unique um I mean among other things right it has all these consequences that we’ve been going through with the
36:5136:51 - spirituality the fact that God is eternal God is immeasurable and the manifestations of those things in
36:5736:57 - creation which is what we’ll look at next as we get through this section but the whole point is that all of these
37:0337:03 - things together mean that there is no one and nothing else like God um and
37:0837:08 - that’s what we mean when we say that God is unique um it comes from God’s infinite nature no one else in the
37:1437:14 - universe can reasonably be compared to him he’s absolutely unique within creation even though God’s not bound by
37:2137:21 - creation right uh as a person who acts within creation no one has the
37:2637:26 - properties that he has no one has his infinite nature and therefore he is the one person to whom all honor is due um
37:3437:34 - as the deao ruler of creation by existential Fiat it’s kind of a mouthful
37:4037:40 - but it’s saying that on account of who God Is His Infinite nature the fact that
37:4537:45 - he is the creator all creation owes him that honor and respect simply on account
37:5237:52 - of who he is um because of these attributes that he has right right we’re saying that God’s Infinity illuminates
37:5837:58 - his abilities that was kind of the intro slide that God is going on this they illuminate his abilities because of his
38:0438:04 - abilities because of his uniqueness he is the de facto ruler of the universe
38:0938:09 - and so from the standpoint of his Transcendence of the physical Universe uh God is unique by virtue of his
38:1538:15 - spirituality eternity and immeasurability and so this is kind of going to be the bridge here and that’s why this section at least to my
38:2238:22 - knowledge that’s why Dr lug has laid out this section as he has is because we’re now going to be going from these three
38:2938:29 - characteristics which are the essential qualities of God right God is these things um now to our minds we kind of
38:3638:36 - have a hard time thinking of them external to the universe but these are the the qualities of God who make God
38:4238:42 - who he is um kind of not in reference to the universe and now we’re going to be shifting our attention um to the
38:5038:50 - manifestations of these qualities as they relate to God’s actions within the universe within creation and so God
38:5738:57 - transcends the physical Universe because he’s spiritual um he’s Eternal and he’s
39:0239:02 - immeasurable but within how he relates to the physical Universe he is supreme
39:0839:08 - within the physical Universe in that he’s omnipotent omniscient and omnipresent and those three if you think
39:1539:15 - about them actually correspond to these other attributes that we’ve just gone over so God is omnipotent because he can
39:2239:22 - affect whatever he wants in the physical Universe with m matter because he is
39:2839:28 - external to it right he’s not bound by the laws that govern the rest of matter in the universe because God created
39:3339:33 - matter same deal with omniscience if God sees the end from the beginning well of what consequences time to God and this
39:4039:40 - is why God knows everything because from the beginning to the end and even that which was not has not been the
39:4639:46 - hypothetical so to speak God knows it all because God is external to time and
39:5139:51 - the omnipresence well if you can’t contain God in one place that’s what it means that God is everywhere because God
39:5839:58 - is simply not a created creature he’s not bound by these these rules of the universe that govern all other created
40:0440:04 - beings now I made this chart here um uh the study doesn’t have it this is just stuff directly out of the study and this
40:1140:11 - can be helpful you know visual a can be helpful for us kind of having an easier way to track some of the things that
40:1740:17 - we’re talking about here so when we say that God is unique we say he’s unique
40:2340:23 - because he’s spiritual rather than being bound by matter and how that manifests in creation is that he’s omnipotent God
40:2940:29 - may affect material creation however he pleases and when we say that he’s Eternal rather than being bound by time
40:3640:36 - that means that God’s omniscient uh God knows everything in creation from beginning to end and even that which
40:4240:42 - could have been um he’s immeasurable rather than being bound by space and that manifests is him being omnipresent
40:4940:49 - he’s ever present in creation as far as the East is from the West so nothing can separate us from God and the the love of
40:5640:56 - God is kind of the scripture I’m paraphrasing there and so all this together means that while we may not be
41:0241:02 - properly able to fully grasp God’s true nature since we ourselves are small finite beings Bound by SpaceTime it
41:0941:09 - should nonetheless be clearly apparent to us that it’s not possible for any other created creature to compare with
41:1541:15 - the Creator um and that’s simply because no other creature is outside of these
41:2041:20 - limitations like God is so even creatures far more powerful than ourselves so Satan and the other angels
41:2641:26 - they are bound and limited in ways God is Not and so that leaves God completely alone in and unique in his Transcendence
41:3441:34 - of and Supremacy within the physical universe and this right here this is why we say that God is
41:4141:41 - unique so uh Audie do you have any points you want to say about kind of what we’ve gone through here um you know
41:4841:48 - this kind of bridge the transition between these essential qualities of God we’ve been going to and then how they
41:5441:54 - manifest within creation yeah um the first thing I want to say about that is the reason that there is
42:0242:02 - even a a question or there is any any mention of God’s uniqueness is that that
42:0842:08 - is actually the whole point of all the fighting so to speak the the war in
42:1642:16 - creation because Satan essentially went why should he have it and I don’t get to
42:2242:22 - have it and every sin that we commit
42:2842:28 - everything that um all all the issues of sin that we
42:3342:33 - have arise from a heart that says why does God get to be God and I don’t get
42:4042:40 - to be God because the idea is what makes him so special I can also make my own
42:4742:47 - choices I can also determine what I will be and we must remember that this is why
42:5442:54 - we are in the image of God that we possess the ability to self-determine we
43:0043:00 - have the ability to self-define so we can say this is what I want to be
43:0543:05 - relative to God that’s what free will really is that we possess the ability to
43:1043:10 - define or explain ourselves relative to God and because we possess that and this
43:1843:18 - is exactly why the argument he just made for how there cannot be more than one God makes all the sense in the world
43:2443:24 - creature Rebellion is AB proof that there can only be one God because if there are more than one creation would
43:3143:31 - not exist there would be at loggerheads all the time and they would essentially
43:3743:37 - either want to create multiple universes and if as long as they’re in Conflict they cannot have this they can’t let
43:4543:45 - anything else exist they would be locked in Eternal conflict forever but we know
43:5143:51 - that there are three Persons Of God and these three Persons Of God are in perfect Unity and that is also proof for
43:5843:58 - why there is one God because if they if they are all in perfect Unity they cannot be multiple gods in the sense of
44:0744:07 - possessing multiple Wills multiple desires multiple projections
44:1444:14 - and expectations and whatnot the very essence of godhead of of deity is that I
44:2144:21 - am that which is not affected by anything outside of myself and
44:2644:26 - more than one God exists they would have issues with affecting each other yeah I
44:3244:32 - mean I almost don’t think to a certain extent that we have to go worry ourselves with uh arguing against the
44:3844:38 - concept because to some extent scripture is clear that there is one God right um
44:4344:43 - you know even Old Testament got that so I I’m not saying we can’t talk about it it’s just to us that’s the important
44:4944:49 - part yeah we’re not going into that the reason that this is actually raised is to explain the matter of the uniqueen of
44:5644:56 - God while we’re even talking about it that uniqueness is the point of all the
45:0245:02 - fighting we are having because as long as a creature can say I can be God too
45:1045:10 - then what’s special about God and that’s why that’s why the Bible is shaped the
45:1545:15 - way it is um I think I had a conversation yes I had a conversation with someone on my way back from church
45:2145:21 - today and I had to tell her I don’t present and I don’t believe that the Bible is a manual of in instruction so I
45:2845:28 - don’t teach you what to do and what not to do and what is right and what is not right I teach you who God is so that you
45:3545:35 - see how different he is from you and from everybody else you get to know his plan so that you know exactly what he
45:4245:42 - aiming to accomplish as a thing that’s different from what you are aiming to accomplish and what everybody else is
45:4745:47 - aiming to accomplish in other words I’m showing you the uniqueness of God and
45:5245:52 - that’s the point that’s the point Satan could say I will Ascend to and I will
45:5945:59 - make my own place I will be like the most high as if you can be like him you
46:0746:07 - are not like him not even remotely so and that’s the point so like you said um
46:1346:13 - all of these uh other qualities that came into play um they they essentially demonstrate his uniqueness and all sorts
46:1946:19 - of ways that is absolutely true they show his Transcendence over creation but more importantly they show his
46:2646:26 - Transcendence over us that is me personally this is the difference
46:3146:31 - between me and God and this is why he gets to say what should be and I get to
46:3846:38 - say I’d like to go with you I agree with you I submit to what you want I will
46:4346:43 - work with you to accomplish it because I don’t know half the things you know you know everything and I don’t have half
46:4946:49 - the power you have you you have all the power whatever you don’t do doesn’t get done I I can’t
46:5646:56 - um be everywhere at once to accomplish my this and and again look when he
47:0247:02 - tested job these things are what he brought to bear he showed him look at the difference between me and you you
47:0847:08 - think you’re so wise you think you’re so smart that you can even judge me now would you can you do this can you do
47:1447:14 - that do you understand this do you know that have you been here have you been there do you know where the the snow
47:2147:21 - comes from and all of that stuff he was essentially saying look at the the gulf the wide go between who you are and who
47:2747:27 - I am and when you see that for what it is do you really think you can judge me
47:3347:33 - can you sit in Judgment of God so this is why we’re interested at all in the
47:4047:40 - talk about God’s uniqueness we’re essentially saying it is impossible for
47:4647:46 - there to be more than one God we are certainly not candidates for that other God that be and Satan is most definitely
47:5447:54 - not a candidate for the other God that ought to be there is only one every other claim to deity to godhood is a
48:0348:03 - lie that’s what this is about because they can never have these attributes
48:0848:08 - that we’re talking about only a being who created what currently exists who’s
48:1348:13 - outside of it can have these attributes nothing that exists within creation can be spiritual truly like separate from
48:2148:21 - creation right nothing that exists within time can be separate from time it just it doesn’t make sense right it’s
48:2748:27 - impossible and so this is the madness the existential futility of Satan’s
48:3348:33 - rebellion and uh you know as uh the satanic rebelling series on ichus talks
48:3848:38 - about this this idea that humans have about you know I am like God God needs
48:4448:44 - me that progression of self- delusion again the insanity of this as
48:5048:50 - Audi is pointing out the reason why we talk about the uniqueness of God is because this this uniqueness that we’re
48:5648:56 - talking about it means that we we owe God God is the one who controls the
49:0149:01 - universe and because of that he’s the one with all the authority in the universe not us um we don’t control the
49:0849:08 - things like God does and for that reason God’s uniqueness gives him de facto
49:1449:14 - rulership and Supremacy within the universe because among other things no one can oppose him not really uh even
49:2049:20 - Satan’s plan Satan’s only dancing in the palm of God’s hand because Satan can do nothing that God does not allow to
49:2749:27 - happen um there is no battle between good and evil where you have Stakes that
49:3349:33 - you’re not sure who wins God won from the time that history first started there is no competition so to speak and
49:4049:40 - that’s because God is unique within the universe no one can compare to him no one has these attributes except for him
49:4849:48 - so um I think that’s where we’ll conclude this I mean obviously uh this bridge that we’ve spent talking about
49:5449:54 - here going from these essential qualities of God to how they manifest in creation as omnipotence omniscience and
49:5949:59 - omnipresence but we’re going to be talking about those things next but that’s kind of how this section Works in taking us from the one to the other
50:0650:06 - talking about how these things make God unique by nature and no one can compare to him on that account so I think that’s
50:1350:13 - where we’re going to stop here and we will be picking up next talking about
50:2050:20 - omnipotence all right so having just talked about how God is unique and he’s
50:2550:25 - unique on account of his spirituality giving him complete dominion over material things in creation his
50:3250:32 - externality to time his eternity giving him complete knowledge of things in creation and his immeasurability uh
50:4050:40 - giving him the ability to be present at all places in etern or in creation um
50:4550:45 - those latter three things that’s what we’re going to be focusing on now starting with uh omnipotence this idea
50:5250:52 - that because God is outside of SpaceTime he can control everything within SpaceTime it’s his right um his ability
50:5950:59 - to do this is because he can affect whatever changes he wants within the material realm nothing can transpire
51:0751:07 - except that which God happens or allows to happen based on the Free Will decisions of others therefore there is
51:1451:14 - no deed nor was there ever nor will there ever be which God is unable to do small or great within material creation
51:2251:22 - um and so I wanted to uh start off a bit of the discussion that we have here
51:2751:27 - talking about this question that you may have heard posed um something like so could God create a rock so big even he
51:3451:34 - couldn’t lift it um sometimes this comes up somewhat tongue and cheek sometimes people are actually serious in raising
51:4051:40 - this as an objection and so this is supposedly pitting two aspects of omnipotence against each other so on the
51:4751:47 - one side God’s ability to create anything he wishes ex nilo that’s Latin it means out of nothing so for for God’s
51:5451:54 - ability to create um versus God’s strength his ability to do things to manipulate material creation um and so
52:0252:02 - the people who make this argument they argue that the two superlatives mandated by omnipotence contradict each other so
52:0852:08 - supposedly if God cannot create an object too heavy for him to lift he’s not omnipotent because an omnipotent
52:1452:14 - creature would be able to create anything and likewise if there would exist some object that God could create
52:1952:19 - but he was unable to lift then he also would not be omnipotent because an omnipotent creature would be able to lift everything so people who make this
52:2652:26 - argument they kind of say something like see either way he can’t do something therefore he’s not omnipotent now of
52:3152:31 - course we don’t agree with this argument as Christians and I’m about to explain why and this is one reason why
52:3652:36 - apologetics um just as a side tangent is best engaged in with those who have the
52:4152:41 - gifts the requisite um gifting from God empowerment of the Holy Spirit and uh proper preparation to handle things like
52:4852:48 - this appropriately because it’s easy to get confused and tripped up and maybe not give as convincing an answer as we
52:5452:54 - ought as Christians when confronted with objections to the truth because this
52:5952:59 - truth that we’re talking about this is an objection to the idea of God’s omnipotence that’s kind of why I’m bringing it up just to highlight no
53:0653:06 - really God is omnipotent what we mean by that okay so how do we handle this this supposed situation of contradiction that
53:1253:12 - people bring up so we can let people who don’t want to believe or we can kind of
53:1853:18 - let them go on their way and this is kind of what I mean by we don’t always have to take up this debate especially
53:2353:23 - if maybe it’s not the right thing for you to do in a second but also and more to the point here it’s not our job to
53:3053:30 - convince people if people are going to not believe in God because of this there’s almost nothing we can do their
53:3753:37 - hearts are already closed off to the truth and you’ll see what I mean in a second here and so to answer this it’s
53:4253:42 - obvious I’m GNA emphasize it again obvious that God can both create whatsoever he wishes and also manipulate
53:4953:49 - Creation in whatever way he wishes that’s what we mean when we say that God’s omnipotent so the idea of a
53:5553:55 - material object that he cannot create is definitionally impossible right it just
54:0154:01 - it cannot happen and so to is a material object he cannot manipulate that he cannot change he cannot affect within
54:0854:08 - creation so lifting The Rock in this case so put differently there is no such thing as an object he could create but
54:1454:14 - not lift or an object he could lift but not create that thing just doesn’t exist the entire objection here is circular by
54:2254:22 - assuming that such a thing can exist to begin with and so when we say that that means that people who they raise this
54:2954:29 - point they think they’re they’re so clever for this they’ve already put God in a box from the very beginning they’re
54:3554:35 - already limiting what he can do just by the very way they phrase this and then they only proceed to smugly knock down
54:4154:41 - nothing but a straw man so they’re not even addressing the real points in hand and again that’s because anything that
54:4754:47 - God could create he could lift by definition there is no such thing as an object where he can do one but not the
54:5354:53 - other and so I might say Okay step why are we why are we talking about this right I’m not that interested I don’t
54:5854:58 - raise that objection so the reason is because it kind of helps throw into relief what God can do right this is not
55:0655:06 - what we have in our heads we we don’t have these logic puzzles when we say that God’s omnipotent we know that God can do
55:1355:13 - anything whatever anything might be um God can do it whatever it may be and so
55:1855:18 - with that we follow El Shai God Almighty the the leader of Angel hosts he who was
55:2455:24 - an is and is to come the person who holds the very strings of the universe in his hands and can create or
55:3055:30 - annihilate galaxies in the blink of an eye that’s what we mean when we are talking about omnipotence not not this
55:3655:36 - this hypothetical creature who might be able to create a rock right we’re talking about the king of the universe the creator of everything that exists
55:4455:44 - and we’ better fear that power and Majesty as we ought to uh to keep our own lives in perspective and so uh just
55:5155:51 - to use a progression here to emphasize the point so as human beings we are tiny
55:5755:57 - compared to the vastness of just Earth much less our solar system much less our galaxy much less the universe itself but
56:0456:04 - God is even bigger infinitely bigger in fact because he’s not bound by it than the universe itself and God could snuff
56:1156:11 - out everything that exists in the blink of an eye if he decided to and so that is the kind of power in view when we
56:1756:17 - speak of God being omnipotent not that he actually will snop out the Universe on a whim but that it would be
56:2256:22 - absolutely nothing for him to do so because he is in complete control of matter time and space and things only
56:2956:29 - exist because he causes them to exist it’s not like they exist independent from his will and so to ties back um I I
56:3856:38 - don’t know if other people find this interesting or or satisfying on an intellectual level to knock down
56:4356:43 - arguments like this but when we say God’s omnipotent God really can do anything within material creation
56:5056:50 - because he controls it and so this idea that uh he couldn’t do something uh
56:5656:56 - whatever skepticism or doubt that people might Express on this is just misplaced
57:0157:01 - because God is not in any way Bound by material creation and so as in this example it simply means that people come
57:0857:08 - in already thinking of God as a limited creature um as something Bound by the
57:1357:13 - rules in which we operate and that’s just the wrong way to go about it because God is completely separate from
57:1957:19 - the rules that govern all of creation so sorry I rambled a bit there but um this was something that I just
57:2557:25 - thought it was worth us talking about as we examine this idea of omnipotence so a do you have anything you want to rip on
57:3257:32 - from what I’ve said or or other points you want to make on omnipotence itself uh yeah um let me say first of
57:4057:40 - all that regarding the question you addressed the first time I heard in 2012 I’d never heard anything of that sort
57:4757:47 - and my fellow apologist then and I we used
57:5357:53 - to kind of people used to mistake us for each other on nirand then um I used to
57:5957:59 - call him my twin because it seemed like we thought exactly the same his answer to that question was that’s a word salad
58:0758:07 - it means exactly nothing like you can’t explain you can’t Define what you’re talking about what’s a rck that God
58:1358:13 - can’t lift so something so um I know I know what is
58:1958:19 - behind it the idea is it’s it’s exactly like saying can God create a square circle because well God can do anything
58:2658:26 - can do everything so he must be able to do something completely nonsensical so um the answer that I find
58:3758:37 - in the scriptures for such things first of all is um there is nothing that God can’t do
58:4458:44 - and the first person to find out how wrong he was about what God can do and
58:5058:50 - can’t do was the wisest creature that God ever
58:5658:56 - made the one who should have been telling everybody just don’t mess with him he knows he knows things you you
59:0359:03 - don’t even begin to imagine like he’s already thought about what you you have not yet begun to imagine or conceive in
59:0959:09 - your in your heart that’s the person who first thought I can box God into a
59:1559:15 - corner I can I can put him in a catch 22 where he his his hands are tied he
59:2159:21 - thought well I can’t beat God in an actual fight I can’t go to war with God and win he’s too powerful but I could
59:2859:28 - outsmart him that was Satan and uh how did that turn out for
59:3459:34 - him well you see this is where things get a little uh annoying for people like
59:3959:39 - me we we live in in Trivial times that means Jesus has come and died on the
59:4559:45 - cross the miracle has happened so it’s it’s it’s easy to trivialize we don’t
59:5059:50 - see the the Marvel of this thing we don’t see the enmity of this miracle
59:5759:57 - that God can forgive a sinner that God can forgive a sinner That’s what Satan said was
1:00:041:00:04 - impossible that he could put in a position where if he forgave a sinner he would be acting
1:00:091:00:09 - unjustly and if he punished The Sinner he would be acting he would be negating his character of
1:00:161:00:16 - love he thought he had won and then God did this Jesus thing and all of a sudden
1:00:221:00:22 - Satan is looking like a complete idiot now those who say he could he create a a
1:00:271:00:27 - rock that he can’t live they sound real smart and after all they’re speaking English most of us who speak English can
1:00:331:00:33 - make sense of the words that they just used and it sounds like yeah yeah I mean could he could he I mean he right if he
1:00:411:00:41 - creates a rock then and he can’t lift it well he can create a rock but now he
1:00:491:00:49 - can’t lift it where is it’s like oh why and your head is blown right like you’ve
1:00:541:00:54 - said you’ve just made so much sense you’ve boxed God into a corner now he can’t exist precisely what Satan thought
1:01:021:01:02 - like I can put him in a situation where he will be forced to abandon creation and I get to rule over
1:01:091:01:09 - it we really can’t win there’s something that God said that Paul said through the
1:01:141:01:14 - spirit in second Timothy Chapter 2 he said If you deny him he won’t deny
1:01:201:01:20 - himself so are there things God can do absolutely he won’t lie he can’t lie he
1:01:261:01:26 - can’t deny himself there are all sorts of things God can do none of them is a reflection on his power all of them are
1:01:341:01:34 - reflection on his character there are lots of things God can do but if we’re
1:01:401:01:40 - talking about what his omnipotence actually means it doesn’t mean he can he can create a rock that he can’t lift his
1:01:471:01:47 - omnipotence means there is absolutely nothing that God could want to do that he want he can’t do nothing
1:01:551:01:55 - like if God decided right now I want to create a sare circle he can create a
1:02:001:02:00 - square circle it doesn’t make any kind of sense to us but I wouldn’t bet against him so I don’t even want to I
1:02:061:02:06 - don’t even want to go there a roong that I can’t lift yeah that’s it’s another nonsensical thing to imagine but I
1:02:121:02:12 - wouldn’t bet against him if he decided that he wanted to do that that’s the well but the whole point of why I framed
1:02:191:02:19 - this how I did was that the question itself is circular that there is no such
1:02:241:02:24 - object right AB so so that’s the whole thing in this is that now I will say you
1:02:301:02:30 - know scripture that comes to mind when we deal with this again is this idea of answering fools according to their Folly
1:02:351:02:35 - I wouldn’t even give people who make this argument the time of day most of the time they’re not interested right no
1:02:411:02:41 - matter what you say they’re not going to listen to you but the whole point of this is that the point that I was trying
1:02:471:02:47 - to make when I brought this up was simply that we cannot in our thinking put God in a box and then speak of his
1:02:531:02:53 - power in terms of the boxed version of God um we need to appreciate how big God
1:02:591:02:59 - is right yeah that’s precisely right there is there is nothing wrong with the
1:03:051:03:05 - answer that you gave it’s actually where I’m starting from which is essentially this you don’t know what God can or
1:03:121:03:12 - cannot do so shut it that’s where you start then what is God’s omnipotence the
1:03:201:03:20 - Bible is very clear there is nothing that God could possibly want to do that
1:03:251:03:25 - he can’t do nothing can stop him in all of creation and this is what Satan keeps
1:03:301:03:30 - learning time and time again and everybody that wants to oppose God I mean right now they’re going bunkers
1:03:361:03:36 - because of Technology because of science for the past 500 years we’ve been doing Miracles that they didn’t think was
1:03:421:03:42 - possible now we’ve gone to the Moon we have launched all sorts of machines into
1:03:481:03:48 - space we exploring things that our great-grandfathers didn’t even know existed all sorts of things are
1:03:531:03:53 - happening in the the world today and people have lost their freaking minds they think now I’m God right because can God do all
1:04:031:04:03 - this stuff I mean they’re forgetting that all those things existed before they even learned how to you know put
1:04:091:04:09 - anything together and send it to the Moon the Moon was already there how did it get there oh it was Evolution right
1:04:151:04:15 - the nothing that exploded and became everything right so but for us who
1:04:211:04:21 - believe what we know from the scriptures is this there is nothing that God cannot do if
1:04:281:04:28 - he wants to do it so if you create a logical impossibility I wouldn’t bet on you
1:04:361:04:36 - winning against God assuming of course and what I’m assuming is that there is
1:04:411:04:41 - any kind of sense in what you’re saying now when Satan made his bet against the
1:04:461:04:46 - Lord and encouraged his fellow angels to to join him in that bed I’m absolutely
1:04:521:04:52 - sure that while he was persuaded he he would win and those the third of the angels that agreed with him thought that
1:04:571:04:57 - they would win was that they were persuaded that this was an actual logical
1:05:021:05:02 - impossibility if God is just and if God is loving well we can get away with sin
1:05:081:05:08 - because you can’t reconcile those two things well God did he did so again I
1:05:151:05:15 - would say I have no idea the limits and this is the most important thing I have
1:05:201:05:20 - no idea what the limits are to God’s power I have no idea so if you create
1:05:261:05:26 - something that sounds absolutely idiotic and you think this is where I’ve caught God I’ve put him in a box he can’t win
1:05:321:05:32 - in this one I’m not betting on you against the Lord I’m simply not now if you said well I I I bet you the Lord
1:05:391:05:39 - cannot lie yeah he said so I won’t fight you on that one he can’t lie if you say
1:05:461:05:46 - that um God God cannot um deny himself sure I’m with you on that I’ll bet I’ll
1:05:541:05:54 - bet on you any day of the week every day of the week everything I’ve got God cannot deny himself but you see if there
1:06:021:06:02 - is anything the Bible does not say God can do and that we can’t reason from the Bible that he can’t do and you think
1:06:081:06:08 - it’s some kind of logical impossibility yeah I’m not going with you on that
1:06:141:06:14 - I’m we have plenty of counter examples of that going real poorly like you said
1:06:191:06:19 - now I will say that these arguments that I’ve been that you’ve been bringing up like can God can God lie can God deny
1:06:251:06:25 - himself those are have a little bit different character um so the particular logical trap here this this whole Rock
1:06:321:06:32 - business I brought up as an example of one of those arguments that we don’t even have to wave our hand at like the
1:06:381:06:38 - argument is literally it assumes things and it’s circular in that regard that’s the point I tried to make some of the
1:06:441:06:44 - other things um this idea of well if God can’t sin turn into an all powerful
1:06:491:06:49 - being sin therefore God can’t exist sort of thing the problem with those is just
1:06:551:06:55 - that their definition of what all powerful is like where are they getting it from right this is always why
1:07:011:07:01 - defining terms is important now I don’t want to go down the Apologetics Rabbit Trail I didn’t want to get a super
1:07:061:07:06 - sidetracked again I was bringing this up sort of as as a point to examine this idea of boxing God and whenever we think
1:07:141:07:14 - that God is limited in some way we better revise our thinking and I think we’ve talked about it well right we’ve
1:07:201:07:20 - used good examples your example of Satan thinking that he he caught God in this in this way to uh that God couldn’t
1:07:271:07:27 - somehow reconcile Sinners to himself that was Satan’s PR campaign if you will it’s a great example of what not to do
1:07:351:07:35 - right of trusting somehow that God can’t do something uh whatever you’re thinking
1:07:411:07:41 - you’re probably wrong because God is in complete control he knows way better than we do about everything that happens
1:07:481:07:48 - in the universe so um with that maybe we’ll see if anyone has any questions
1:07:531:07:53 - questions on this before we move on to the next one so this again is on the idea of
1:08:001:08:00 - omnipotence all right so that’s probably where we’ll we’ll pivot from talking about God’s omnipotence to his
1:08:081:08:08 - omniscience and so we spent all this time talking about well what can God do and now we’re going to talk about what
1:08:131:08:13 - does God know that’s going to be the next thing that we focus
1:08:191:08:19 - on all right so as to omniscience uh here’s the text coming straight out of the study uh we have the idea that God
1:08:261:08:26 - is all knowing irrespective of time so again this is how this corresponds to
1:08:321:08:32 - God being Eternal and outside of time is that God knows everything irrespective of time he knows the end from the
1:08:391:08:39 - beginning he can affect anything he desires in the temporal realm therefore
1:08:441:08:44 - God knows always has known and always will know everything the end from the beginning as the Everlasting one his
1:08:511:08:51 - knowledge of every event that has or will or even could occur within his creation is comprehensive and absolute
1:08:591:08:59 - so specific phrase that I wanted to pick out here is this this could occur business so it’s not just knowing
1:09:061:09:06 - everything that has and is and will occur but everything that could have occurred as well so I do not want to get
1:09:141:09:14 - too off in the weeds of the the theological thing people give this a label the so-called molinism with a
1:09:211:09:21 - capital m m o l i n ISM um and this idea of middle knowledge um I that’s just the
1:09:291:09:29 - theological jargon here um I actually don’t particularly like bogging ourselves down in the theological
1:09:361:09:36 - arguments that have happened over this um uh there’s a a reasonably famous apologist in our day his name is William
1:09:421:09:42 - Lane Craig um he is a prominent proponent of this particular Doctrine um
1:09:481:09:48 - I kind of like to talk about independent from that so the example that I thought we’d bring up to talk about this idea of
1:09:551:09:55 - God knowing uh things that didn’t just happen or or that that like happened in
1:10:011:10:01 - the past or will happen in the future but things uh kind of that this would have could have hypothetical sort of thing is uh when the Bible says that God
1:10:091:10:09 - will never test us past what we can bear so that’s 1 Corinthians 10:13 you know I could actually read full reference here
1:10:141:10:14 - no temptation is overtaken you but such as is common to man and God is faithful who will not allow you to be tempted
1:10:201:10:20 - beyond what you are able but with the Temptation will provide the way of Escape also so that you will be able to
1:10:251:10:25 - endure it now the Greek word here that is translated as Temptation in the nasb is also translated as testing um
1:10:331:10:33 - depending on context is how you know whether it’s Temptation or testing um so this one can actually kind of go either
1:10:381:10:38 - way that God will not test us past what we were able to bear um but the idea is well how does God know what we’re able
1:10:451:10:45 - to bear and the verse here implicitly requires that God knows where our limits
1:10:511:10:51 - are how does God know that if it happens before we have actually done something and this is where you get into
1:10:581:10:58 - this idea of this knowledge that God has is so complete that it even covers these
1:11:041:11:04 - situations past that which actually has or will occur hence middle knowledge
1:11:091:11:09 - again I don’t particularly like bogging ourselves down in uh some of the history so to speak here but it’s necessary for
1:11:171:11:17 - God to know what what test we are and are not able to Bear he has to know
1:11:221:11:22 - whether we would or would not pass a test were he to give it to us right um seems kind of like common sense um another example you can use is divine
1:11:291:11:29 - discipline um how does God know what discipline is necessary for us right he
1:11:341:11:34 - has to know what discipline will best lead to Turning us back to him right to
1:11:411:11:41 - uh basically corresponding to the Free Will decisions we make in life well since we’re all different we have these
1:11:471:11:47 - different um uh you know makeups talents aptitudes opinions everything thing uh
1:11:541:11:54 - so the discipline with which now anyone who’s had kids can probably relate to this uh the way in which you discipline
1:12:001:12:00 - one child may need to be different than the way in which you discipline another so very encourageable little boys for
1:12:051:12:05 - example may need a much Sterner talking to than uh their more sensitive younger sisters for example um just not to
1:12:121:12:12 - generalize based on gender too much but uh you know sometimes people need a good bit more discipline uh because they’re a
1:12:191:12:19 - little bit more resistant to it so God knows all of this perfectly he knows exactly what we need and what would and
1:12:251:12:25 - would not work with each of us specifically um all of this knowledge that we’re getting at here this is God’s
1:12:311:12:31 - knowledge of that which could be of the hypothetical and uh I for whatever
1:12:371:12:37 - reason some of this is controversial theologically um so to me these examples
1:12:431:12:43 - I’ve raised 1 Corinthians 10:13 God will not test us past what I can bear seems just kind of like it makes sense for God
1:12:491:12:49 - to have this knowledge it’s necessary for him to uh act in this way way that everything is perfectly mapped out right
1:12:551:12:55 - we believe in the for ordination of all events before the beginning of human history and so uh God’s perfect for
1:13:021:13:02 - ordination logically requires that he know everything about all potential paths in the mind-bogglingly complex
1:13:081:13:08 - decision tree that spans the history of the entire universe so that’s a really jargony way of saying that all of these
1:13:141:13:14 - potentials that we’re talking about for God’s plan to be perfect he has to have already taken all of that into account
1:13:191:13:19 - so it’s kind of always puzzled me why people would ever think to argue against this um it’s just this is just how big
1:13:261:13:26 - God’s knowledge is this is what it means when we say he’s omnicient but alas some people do argue against this right and
1:13:331:13:33 - uh hypothesis Theory I don’t know I cannot look into the hearts of people but perhaps it’s because believing that
1:13:391:13:39 - God knows even these things requires us to appreciate how truly big and unlike us uh who with our very finite
1:13:461:13:46 - perspective that we have here within SpaceTime how unlike us God really is
1:13:521:13:52 - because for us this sort of knowledge is completely impossible for us to have we can’t know what would or could happen
1:13:581:13:58 - were this to you know were this event or that event to happen in our lives we can’t predict that we have no idea but
1:14:041:14:04 - God does because he’s God because he’s external to creation and so for now
1:14:091:14:09 - again another thing that I’m raising here you should just mostly ignore the fact in my opinion that some people have
1:14:151:14:15 - again tried to put God into a box in their minds right so we talked about this with omnipotence we’re now we’re
1:14:211:14:21 - talking about it with omniscience uh people who say well God can’t know that that’s you know it doesn’t make sense it’s not logical etc etc um uh well you
1:14:291:14:29 - should kind of ignore the fact that some people do put God In A Box in their minds and content yourself with the sure
1:14:341:14:34 - confidence that God knows everything when we say everything that is unbounded we mean everything absolutely everything
1:14:401:14:40 - inclusive of our Free Will decisions before we even make them it’s for knowledge and so and God is also so
1:14:471:14:47 - infinitely wise as to have perfectly mapped out all of creature history before the universe was even created
1:14:521:14:52 - God’s plan perfectly captures everything from beginning to end there are no mistakes there is nothing that could
1:14:591:14:59 - happen that would be better than that which has already been foreordained and so this divine plan being worked out
1:15:051:15:05 - around us God knows what he’s doing he’s not going to make mistakes and we need to have faith and trust in that so again
1:15:121:15:12 - kind of introducing a way in which people box God in which they’re not willing to accept that God knows everything and when we say everything we
1:15:191:15:19 - mean it everything um so a you want to bounce anything off of what I’ve said
1:15:251:15:25 - here yeah I think I think uh the real sum of it um is is really God’s
1:15:311:15:31 - knowledge is perfect the Bible bears that out and um whenever we go into a
1:15:371:15:37 - lot of the philosophy uh I know why molinism exists it’s one of the answers
1:15:451:15:45 - to trying to reconcile how God knows everything and
1:15:511:15:51 - yet we have free will it’s one of those um theologies like you said we there’s
1:15:571:15:57 - quite a bit of getting into for that but I think I can say rather simply here
1:16:031:16:03 - that first of all the Bible is absolutely clear that God’s knowledge is perfect there is no um need to
1:16:121:16:12 - accommodate some imperfection in God’s knowledge if he has imperfect knowledge he’s not God we should remember again
1:16:191:16:19 - that what God is by nature is that which
1:16:251:16:25 - is and that is why the Bible tells us that his name is I will be what I am or
1:16:321:16:32 - I I I I am what I will be he’s unaffected by time if his knowledge is
1:16:391:16:39 - affected by time then that definition becomes untrue if he has to learn things
1:16:461:16:46 - that definition becomes untrue if his knowledge depreciates loses value or
1:16:521:16:52 - quality over time that definition becomes untrue so he either has perfect
1:16:591:16:59 - knowledge or he is not God and this is actually how we can tell when something is not the true God it’s one of the ways
1:17:051:17:05 - we can tell that that thing does not have perfect knowledge that’s why we can know for example that even a suser who
1:17:121:17:12 - who can predict like it was happening with uh the slave girl who had the spirit of divination right we could
1:17:191:17:19 - still say even with that demon rtion of power that is beyond human ability that
1:17:261:17:26 - was still not God we can tell that because like God said through one of the prophets bring
1:17:331:17:33 - your divers find bring your Gods let’s see who can predict the end from the
1:17:401:17:40 - beginning like I can so God’s knowledge is perfect that’s not a question
1:17:451:17:45 - molinism and questions of hypothesis what could be what would be and all of that stuff my answer to that is still
1:17:531:17:53 - God knows everything and Jesus did demonstrate that matter of what could be when he talked about Sodom and Gomorrah
1:18:001:18:00 - and yeah that is one of the proof text and this is why I didn’t want to get into people argue about this very long
1:18:061:18:06 - and audite but the idea that we’re introducing here like Audi said is just that when we say God’s knowledge is
1:18:131:18:13 - perfect we we mean it every every down to the last drgs of the logical
1:18:181:18:18 - implication of that so to speak and yeah and here’s need we just need to speak as
1:18:241:18:24 - if we actually believe that because people people in their heads again they try to put God in a box they try to say
1:18:301:18:30 - well but but but and the answer is no like Audi said God’s knowledge is perfect and complete from the beginning
1:18:381:18:38 - to the end so I would say this a lot of times in in matters of discussing the
1:18:441:18:44 - Bible people don’t discuss the Bible they want to talk philosophy and here’s
1:18:511:18:51 - the thing we have to be look philosophy is good if it is good philosophy as a
1:18:591:18:59 - matter of fact what we consider good philosophy is the Bible so if the Bible
1:19:041:19:04 - says it it’s true the Bible doesn’t say it’s suspect at at best it’s suspect
1:19:101:19:10 - best so if someone shows up and starts going into the ins and outs about why
1:19:151:19:15 - this or that is logical I’m listening for yeah the Bible actually does say or doesn’t say if I don’t hear that I don’t
1:19:211:19:21 - really care what you’re saying so if you’re insisting that if he knew then this if he didn’t know then that
1:19:291:19:29 - what I I I really don’t care the question I want to hear or what I want to hear from you is the Bible says this
1:19:361:19:36 - or doesn’t say that that’s all so as far as I’m concerned the Bible is clear
1:19:421:19:42 - about God’s perfect knowledge and and complete knowledge there is no question
1:19:481:19:48 - about whether God knows everything or doesn’t know Peter himself said it to
1:19:531:19:53 - Jesus Christ you know all things you know that I love you so when God is asking us questions he’s not seeking
1:19:591:19:59 - information that’s very obvious so um having said that all questions that
1:20:061:20:06 - arise from if God knows we have to understand the answer
1:20:121:20:12 - is not in he probably doesn’t that’s not where the answer to
1:20:171:20:17 - that question is if the question is how do I reconcile the fact that God has perfect knowledge to this is then
1:20:231:20:23 - there’s a third piece that you’re missing you need to find that you cannot
1:20:291:20:29 - solve that problem by reducing what God knows because then you would make him less than God that’s the end that I can
1:20:361:20:36 - you know yeah no I mean and like I said not going to go down the full Rabbit
1:20:421:20:42 - Trail there um you you brought up the Sodom and gomorah passage there’s other arguments I mean I made mine using the
1:20:481:20:48 - testing passage here from 1 Corinthians chapter 10 uh more of the point is is
1:20:541:20:54 - that the people who want to limit God to say that God can’t know these things
1:21:001:21:00 - somehow that it’s logically impossible where are they getting that from right it’s it’s the same issue with the the
1:21:061:21:06 - whole thing that we talked about about the limits people place upon God’s omnipotence is that the limits that
1:21:111:21:11 - people who argue against I’m not even So Pro all the arguments that people use for this particular teaching in so far
1:21:171:21:17 - as it just means that when we say God knows everything we really do mean everything um everything that has and is
1:21:241:21:24 - and will or could or could have or everything in between right because he’s
1:21:291:21:29 - God um and we just have to respect that that’s all and so that is omniscience um
1:21:351:21:35 - God knows the end from the beginning God is in uh complete control of everything
1:21:401:21:40 - that that has and is and will happen in the universe because God’s plan is
1:21:451:21:45 - perfect it spans time from beginning to end because God knows all um that’s
1:21:511:21:51 - omniscience I think that’s where we’ll cut for omniscience and next we’re going to talk about
1:22:001:22:00 - omnipresence all right so now that we finished our discussion here of omniscience uh talking about how just
1:22:071:22:07 - like with omnipotent some people kind of put God In A Box in their minds they
1:22:121:22:12 - right from the outset don’t view him kind of as this being separate from
1:22:171:22:17 - SpaceTime but they try to contextualize him in terms of the way we might understand very powerful creatures that
1:22:251:22:25 - are still part of our universe well in the same way people might not always appreciate that God is absolutely
1:22:321:22:32 - everywhere within creation so God is ever present irrespective of space he
1:22:371:22:37 - can affect anything he desires in the spatial realm therefore God has the ability has always had and always will
1:22:441:22:44 - have to be anywhere and everywhere local and Universal and this is within creation within the universe uh now this
1:22:511:22:51 - note is me this isn’t directly from the study this is something I wrote I just say a particular note is that this means
1:22:561:22:56 - that God sees all he sees everything that happens within creation nobody can sneak anything past God and on that
1:23:031:23:03 - great day of days on Judgment Day be Before the Throne all will be revealed
1:23:091:23:09 - um this also means uh as a practical note that it’s completely futile to try to run away from God so like Jonah from
1:23:161:23:16 - the Book of Jonah we will find that no matter where we go God and His purposes for us will always be there too
1:23:231:23:23 - so because God is ever presentent in the world uh no matter where we might try to
1:23:291:23:29 - escape uh to run to hide from the things that God has for us we will never be
1:23:341:23:34 - able to because God is at all places at all times because he’s God so aie do you
1:23:401:23:40 - have any points you want to make um I think maybe this is among the more straightforward of the characteristics
1:23:451:23:45 - of God that we’ve gone over here um but interested to hear if you have things to
1:23:511:23:51 - say um I don’t think there is a much more to
1:23:581:23:58 - say there it’s just that God is not limited by space he created it he exists
1:24:061:24:06 - without it or he existed without it until he made it and he absolutely
1:24:111:24:11 - controls it so he can do whatever he wants with it and he’s not limited by it
1:24:181:24:18 - I think that’s um uh I wouldn’t say a more correct way to
1:24:241:24:24 - put it but a more um uh all embracing way to put it uh in the
1:24:321:24:32 - sense that God is not limited by space so one might be thinking in terms of if
1:24:391:24:39 - he’s everywhere is he in Hell uh but then we talk about the Lake of Fire
1:24:441:24:44 - being um uh God casting people away from his presence so what does that mean what
1:24:521:24:52 - we mean the Bible never uses the word omnipresent but it does say things like
1:24:581:24:58 - where can I go away from you if I if I make my bed in hell there you are as
1:25:041:25:04 - well but of course hell in that sense is show the place of the Dead um regardless
1:25:111:25:11 - the point is there is no place in the universe in all of creation that is
1:25:181:25:18 - outside of God’s reach MH so that’s what I would say I I think bringing up the
1:25:231:25:23 - point of so-called biblical geography um you know ichus has a chart I don’t remember exactly which study but of like
1:25:301:25:30 - the third heaven separated by the universe from like the waters above and
1:25:361:25:36 - then we have the universe and then um hell and the Lake of Fire you know uh
1:25:421:25:42 - Jesus went into sha like you said the grave um when he descended uh before he
1:25:481:25:48 - ascended on the third day and that’s different than the Lake of Fire where the devil and fallen angels and
1:25:531:25:53 - unbelievers will go at the end of time um so-called again biblical geography
1:25:591:25:59 - here um but regardless like you said the point is God’s not limited by space or
1:26:051:26:05 - spatial concerns and so uh for us practically as human beings well we don’t have to worry about any of that
1:26:111:26:11 - stuff that happens after we die at the moment in how we we in how we live our lives um it is just true that God is
1:26:171:26:17 - always before us um and we should actually view this more as a comfort than as a a bad thing is is someone
1:26:231:26:23 - snooping on us because this means that nothing can separate us from God we have this verse I I know Paul wrote maybe
1:26:311:26:31 - it’s Philippians I don’t remember like nothing can separate us from the love of God As far as the East is from the West
1:26:361:26:36 - that sort of thing uh God is always with us and that should be a supreme Comfort
1:26:421:26:42 - to us uh probably more than anything
1:26:471:26:47 - else all right so just to run through the things that we’ve talked about here in this lesson examining the nature of
1:26:551:26:55 - God so we have talked first about God’s essential characteristics how he is
1:27:001:27:00 - spiritual Eternal and immeasurable in a spatial sense um and then how that
1:27:061:27:06 - manifests within creation is him being omnipotent omniscience and omnipresent um and we spent a good bit
1:27:131:27:13 - of our time in the study talking about how God is unique and because no other
1:27:181:27:18 - being in all of creation um uh you know or outside of creation right because we
1:27:241:27:24 - believe there’s one God and that God made SpaceTime uh no one is like God no
1:27:301:27:30 - one in the universe can reasonably be compared to him he’s absolutely unique and therefore the person to whom all
1:27:361:27:36 - honor is due um and so he transcends the physical Universe um through these
1:27:411:27:41 - characteristics and within the physical Universe he is supreme within it because
1:27:471:27:47 - he is omnipotent omniscient and omnipresent and so this is how we view God
1:27:521:27:52 - with respect to his infinite nature and if you remember at the beginning of this lesson we had been emphasizing that
1:27:591:27:59 - God’s infinite nature illuminates his abilities what things God can do how he
1:28:041:28:04 - interacts with creation and in the next lesson we are going to pick up talking about God’s perfect character and what
1:28:101:28:10 - that says about his motives
God’s Perfect Character
Video
Summary
This lesson, we are going to be talking about God’s perfect character, and what that means in terms of His motives.
Timestamps
0:000:00 - Intro and outline
01:4001:40 - Introduction: God’s perfect character
08:0708:07 - Q: Why are we told to be perfect like God in Matthew 5:48 if we can never live up to that standard?
11:5711:57 - Q: What does it mean for Noah to be called “perfect in his generations”?
15:5415:54 - God is Good
29:5629:56 - God is Holy
43:2243:22 - God is Faithful and True
56:5156:51 - God is Sovereign
01:18:4201:18:42 - God is Love
01:34:0001:34:00 - God is Just
01:53:1201:53:12 - “How is it just for unbelievers to face infinite, eternal punishment for finite sins?”
02:17:1802:17:18 - God is Life
02:23:4302:23:43 - Contrasting eternal life and eternal death
02:32:5002:32:50 - Summary and outro
Content
(Derived from https://ichthys.com/1Theo.htm)
Introduction: God’s perfect character
God is perfect in His character, irreproachable and blameless in every possible way.
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
So be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
When firmly grasped, God’s perfection—perfection in every way and according to any conceivable true standard—is a clarifying concept, illuminating His motives. God’s perfect character will never be less than the highest, the best, and the purest that the human mind can comprehend.
Why are we told to be perfect like God in Matthew 5:48 if we can never live up to that standard?
This is a video-only section.
What does it mean for Noah to be called “perfect in his generations”?
This is a video-only section.
As in Genesis 6:9—if you’d like, here’s an interlinear for the verse.
God is Good
God’s character is good (Hebrew tov: טוב); it is the antithesis of evil. So how does goodness respond to sinful man? In His goodness, God always has our best interests at heart. Therefore His desire for us to be free from evil and devoted to good is genuine. Even though we are sinful and by nature unworthy of His blessing, in His goodness God has nevertheless found a gracious way to redeem us from sin without compromising His character, namely, by giving us the gift of His Son, Jesus Christ.
God is Holy
God’s character is holy (Hebrew qadosh: קדוש); it is completely separate from evil. So how does holiness respond to sinful man? In His holiness, God can never compromise His perfect standards for any reason. Therefore His commitment to condemning evil and rewarding good is inviolable. But even though we are sinful and by nature deserving of His judgment, in His holiness God has nevertheless found a merciful way to justify us in spite of our sin without violating His character, namely, by judging His Son, Jesus Christ in our place.
God is Faithful and True
God’s character is faithful and true (Hebrew: omen, emeth: אמת ,אמון); it is actively opposed to evil. So how do truth and faithfulness respond to sinful man? In His faithfulness and truth, God is entirely reliable and trustworthy in all that He promises to us and does for us. Therefore His veracity and dependability in offering us a way through Jesus Christ to escape the evil of death and embrace the good of eternal life are beyond reproach. So even though we are sinful and by nature objects of His wrath, in His faithfulness and truth God has nevertheless found a way to make peace between Himself and us and to remove the enmity between Himself and us, caused by our sins, without corrupting His character, namely, by reconciling us to Himself through the death of His Son, Jesus Christ.
God is Sovereign
Sovereignty comes from God’s perfect character. No one else has a legitimate right to rule over the universe. He is the absolute sovereign within His own creation, and therefore the one Person to whom all honor is due. Sovereignty thus speaks to God’s moral authority and right to order the universe however He chooses.
From the standpoint of His transcendence of the moral universe, He is sovereign by virtue of His goodness, holiness and truth (essential qualities independent of His creation). From the standpoint of His supremacy within the moral universe, He is sovereign by virtue of His love, justice, and life (qualities applying to His creation which correspond to goodness, holiness and truth).
Only God is qualified to be the ultimate judge of the morally accountable creatures He has created, and thus to hold them responsible for their actions. As de facto ruler of the universe (through His infinite nature) and de jure ruler of the universe (through His perfect character):
God possesses the sovereign authority to demonstrate love to His sinful creatures out of His own goodness
Not ignoring their sins, as evil suggests He should, but paying for them Himself by the death on the cross of His Son, Jesus Christ, in their place (redemption). We call the result of this act of His sovereignty grace (Hebrew chen: חן; Greek charis: χάρις).
God possesses the sovereign authority to administer justice to His sinful creatures out of His holiness
Not abandoning them to their sins, as evil suggests He must, but forgiving them Himself on the basis of the death on the cross of His Son, Jesus Christ, in their place (justification). We call the result of this act of His sovereignty mercy (Hebrew chesed: חסד; Greek eleos: ἔλεος).
God possesses the sovereign authority to give life to His sinful creatures out of His truth and faithfulness
Not allowing them to die in their sins, as evil suggests He will, but reconciling them to Himself through the death on the cross of His Son, Jesus Christ, in their place (reconciliation). We call the result of this act of His sovereignty peace (Hebrew shalom: שלום; Greek eirene: εἰρήνη).
Summary: God’s sovereignty in action
| Essential Quality | Manifesting in creation as | Action God takes | God’s sovereign attitude towards us | Result |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Goodness | Love | Paying for sin | Grace | Redemption |
| Holiness | Justice | Forgiving sin | Mercy | Justification |
| Truth | Life | Reconciling sinful man to Himself | Peace | Reconciliation |
In this—God’s full plan for saving sinful man—absolutely everything relies upon the cross, the blood of Jesus Christ. One particularly memorable way I have heard it described is that “God’s Mercy and Justice intersect in the cross.”
God is Love
Having love for His creatures, is a natural consequence of God’s goodness. Out of the intrinsic goodness of His character, God loves us with a perfect love, desiring to help us in our sinful state. However, He does not overlook His holiness and justice in the process and forgive our sin without consequence (as evil suggests He should). Therefore God had to find a way to reach out to us in love without compromising His character, and did so through the gift and sacrifice of His only Son on our behalf. Grace is the biblical name for God’s policy of lovingly redeeming us from our sins through Jesus Christ. We accept and receive God’s gracious offer of love and redemption by accepting and receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior.
God is Just
Demanding justice for His creatures is a natural consequence of God’s holiness. Out of the intrinsic holiness of His character, God must deal with us in perfect justice, righteously condemning us in our sinful state. However, He does not overlook His goodness and love in the process and abandon us to our sins (as evil suggests He will). For God found a way to treat us as righteous without compromising His character, and did so through the gift and sacrifice of His only Son on our behalf. Mercy is the biblical name for God’s policy of justly forgiving us on the basis of the death of Jesus Christ. We accept and receive God’s merciful offer of justification by accepting and receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior.
“How is it just for unbelievers to face infinite, eternal punishment for finite sins?”
This is a video-only section.
This question’s wording presupposes something that is simply not true: that unbelievers face eternal punishment in hell for personal sins they commit in this life.
As we go over in the video, hell exists not to punish unbelievers for their sins—as if they could somehow pay for or atone for them—but only because of unbelief (“blasphemy against the Holy Spirit”). That hell is not punishment for sins but the consequence of unbelief—of wanting to spend eternity apart from God—is a rather fundamental point about the nature of hell, but is nonetheless widely misunderstood.
Jesus paid for all human sin upon the cross, and, moreover, imperfect human beings are not even worthy sacrifices. That is, we could not pay for our sin even if we wanted to; we are not qualified since we are tainted and marred by sin. Only Christ—the true, blameless Lamb of God—can take away the sins of the world with His blood, and He already did so upon the cross some 2,000 years ago.
If God punished unbelievers for their sins in hell after Christ already took the judgement for said sins, the sins would be judged twice (“double jeopardy”)—obviously incompatible with justice. Therefore, it is no exaggeration to say that falsely believing that human beings are punished for their sins in hell is no less than a rejection of the efficacy of Jesus’ payment for all human sin upon the cross (or perhaps the Father’s acceptance of Jesus’ work). If you believe in unlimited atonement and so-called penal substitutionary atonement (both true things that are clearly taught in scripture), then the purpose (telos) of hell cannot be the punishment of human sins. It is simply theologically unworkable.
To pull us back to the present question:
The grace of the cross is positively scandalous:
That God would judge His own Son for human sin,
Even for the most gross and reprehensible sins of humanity.
That unbelievers refuse to accept Christ’s payment for them is tragic:
That God’s love will go unreciprocated,
Despite Him laying down His life for their salvation.
But that unbelievers accuse God of injustice is ironic:
That they scorn the God that loves them so much,
Who has already saved them from their punishment,
By taking it upon His own shoulders.
When unbelievers say it is not just for them to face infinite, eternal punishment for finite sins, they miss the fact that God already judged Jesus for all their sins upon the cross, and that people in hell are not there to punish them for their sins, but because they chose unbelief and separation from God. God has, out of His unfathomable grace, spared them the true consequences of their sins—Jesus bore these consequences instead, even for the most vile and unrepentant of unbelievers. Nevertheless, He will let all those creatures who choose of their own will to live apart from Him have their wish. And an eternity apart from God—who is everything good—will be utterly miserable.
The point is that hell is not miserable on account of punishment for sins committed, but miserable on account of separation from God.
All of this should make it clear why the idea of “levels of hell” (cf. the “Nine Circles of Hell” in Dante’s Inferno) is so problematic theologically.
Because all people in hell are there for the same reason (unbelief)—not to punish them for their personal sins—there can be no levels of hell.
That people find this unpalatable (“What do you mean Hitler will be no worse off in hell than my ’nice’ unbelieving neighbor?!”) does not make it any less true. As I have said before, the cross is truly scandalous grace—and what is even more scandalous is that God gives a real offer of salvation to every single human being who has ever lived… even those who—in our opinion—actually deserve a healthy dose of eternal suffering (e.g., those who rape and murder children). That is how far God has gone in offering a genuine choice to all mankind.
For people who still balk at this teaching (viewing it as too lenient upon the truly evil), consider Paul. If God made Paul (who—prior to his conversion in Acts 9—was a fierce persecutor of the Early Church) the Apostle to the Gentiles, then when you find fault with God for showing grace to sinners who you think are too evil, are you saying God made a mistake with Paul?
God is Life
Saving the lives of His creatures is a natural consequence of God’s truth and faithfulness. Out of the intrinsic veracity and trustworthiness of His character, God honors His gracious and merciful promise to restore us to Himself and thereby to eternal life, delivering us from the condemnation of death accruing to us in our sinful state. In doing so, however, He has not failed to resolve the competing demands of His goodness and love on the one hand, with those of His holiness and justice on the other (as evil suggests He must). For God has found a way in accordance with His character to eliminate the wall of sin and consequent wrath which separates us from Him, and has done so through the gift and sacrifice of His only Son on our behalf (He died that we might have life). Peace is the biblical name for God’s life-giving policy of reconciling us to Himself on the basis of the work of Jesus Christ. We accept and receive God’s offer of life, peace, and reconciliation by accepting and receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior.
Contrasting eternal life and eternal death
This is a video-only section.
Video/audio transcript
0:000:00 - all right so right now we are going to be picking up with the next lesson in our series here on Bible basics part one
0:070:07 - theology proper talking about God’s perfect character so in the last lesson
0:120:12 - we were examining God’s infinite nature and what that tells us about his abilities and now we’re going to be
0:170:17 - picking up examining God’s perfect character and how that can help us understand his motives and so here are
0:250:25 - the things that we are going to be going through in this lesson we’re going to start out with an introduction of what
0:300:30 - it means for God to have perfect character kind of talking a little bit about the word perfect uh the Greek word
0:360:36 - as it shows up in Matthew 548 then we’re going to be talking about how God is good and holy and faithful and true um
0:440:44 - these uh very similar to when we were talking about God’s nature being essential characteristics of God that
0:490:49 - then manifest in the universe as love Justice and life um and so in the same
0:560:56 - way that we kind of had the section in the last lesson uh talking about how God is unique serving as a bridge between
1:031:03 - the essential characteristics of God and how they manifest in creation we’re going to have that same sort of
1:081:08 - structure here with this section on how God is Sovereign um in fact this is even a bit more fleshed out than the God is
1:151:15 - unique section from the last one and so you’ll see what I mean when we get there this will probably be one of the larger
1:201:20 - subsections in our examination of things in this study talking about um how God’s
1:271:27 - goodness Holiness and faithfulness and Truth manifest in terms of Love Justice and life and what that means in terms of
1:331:33 - God’s Sovereign control of all creation so these are the things that we are going to be talking about here in this
1:421:42 - lesson all right so the first thing that we are going to be doing here to introduce the topic of this lesson is
1:491:49 - talking about God’s perfect character which is irreplaceable and blameless and every way and so this is the verse here
1:571:57 - uh that we pull up uh to kind of introduce the topic Matthew 5: 48 says
2:032:03 - that you therefore must be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect and the
2:082:08 - vocabulary here is the Greek word toos um so this is an adjective um and a
2:142:14 - little bit more than an English perhaps this word has the sense of completion of fullness of lacking nothing and so when
2:212:21 - we think of perfect in English um I don’t know if we necessarily have all those same connotations that go along
2:272:27 - with it but toos in Greek has this idea of something that has been uh fully
2:332:33 - accomplished something that has been done realized it’s at its end so to
2:382:38 - speak it is brought to completion and that is the quotative sense of this of
2:432:43 - this word meaning perfect here in Greek and so that is what God is um so when
2:492:49 - grasped God’s Perfection is perfection in every way and according to any conceivable true standard um and as we
2:562:56 - say this is going to help us understand God’s motives um as a moral agent God’s
3:023:02 - perfect character will never be less than the highest the best and the purest that the human mind can comprehend um to
3:083:08 - the nth degree and so just as God’s nature is infinite so too is his
3:133:13 - character uh unimpeachable he is perfect in the superlative sense of every
3:193:19 - positive moral characteristic and that is what we are going to be examining as we move forward uh talking about some of
3:263:26 - his characteristics of of goodness uh wow I’m forgetting them off the top of
3:323:32 - my head of goodness and then his Justice faithfulness and Truth moving into the
3:373:37 - applied characteristics as well so a do you have anything you want to say just about the idea of perfection in general
3:443:44 - as it applies to God um I would say uh as a sort of uh
3:523:52 - contextualization uh of of this discussion so far it is this um that uh
4:004:00 - uh in in discussing theology we’re asking the
4:054:05 - question why should we trust
4:104:10 - God that is um that is that is a okay let me see if
4:174:17 - I can get into it just a little bit hopefully you won’t see the minute um the subject of the Bible is really God
4:244:24 - and his plan which of course is centered around the Lord Jesus Christ so so uh
4:314:31 - what we are seeking to do is to is to get to know why we we are right to place
4:394:39 - our trust in God at least the one that’s revealed in the
4:444:44 - Bible and why that one is the right God because just like Paul says there are gods and Lords many but we know that
4:524:52 - there is only one God the father and the Lord Jesus Christ so when we are looking
5:005:00 - at um theology the study of God we’re looking at who first of all what is he
5:075:07 - and in fact those two components what is he and who is he are really um two parts
5:165:16 - of one whole what is a thing made of and what does a thing do so what is God’s
5:235:23 - nature what what is he at his core and what does he do as a rule these
5:335:33 - are the two things that tell us what a thing is and who who a person is so when
5:405:40 - we studied God is unique we were learning how he is deity how he is that which is that
5:505:50 - thing that separate from everything else that exists now when we’re looking at his character we’re coming to
5:575:57 - see this is also why he does different things than every
6:036:03 - everything else that exists so we discovering God as a person in his own
6:106:10 - right and his Perfection is a necessary part of that discussion because it tells
6:156:15 - us this is why we can trust him we know his abilities now we know his
6:256:25 - character so that’s um that’s what I would say about that
6:306:30 - it’s a it’s it’s a question of keeping our eyes on what on what the context is what we’re trying to uh um get to know
6:396:39 - so that we are confirmed in trusting the Lord as we come to discover what his
6:466:46 - plan is and are plac in that plan right and I think that’s why the
6:516:51 - focus on this section um as the study mentions is Illuminating God’s motives
6:576:57 - why does God operate in the way which he does and what is the reason behind it um
7:037:03 - you know what are his plans as it regards us as moral creatures in the universe um so again not so much what
7:117:11 - can he do because as we’ve established God can do anything within material creation but why God does the things he
7:197:19 - does especially as we’ll see in coming slides here as we go through this lesson
7:257:25 - especially as it relates to redeeming mankind um God’s relationship to us as Humanity the ways in which he has saved
7:327:32 - us from the just consequences of our sins through the sacrifice of his son on the cross um that is what we get at it
7:407:40 - when we talk about well why does God do what he does um what is his plan for
7:457:45 - Redemptive human history of mankind um so we will elaborate on all of this more
7:517:51 - as we go but for the first several slides we will be focusing on um God’s essential characteristics of goodness
7:587:58 - holy Hess and faithfulness and truth so I misspoke early it was Holiness not justice justice is the applied one but
8:048:04 - that is where we will pick up to begin this discussion in this lesson all right so we had a question here about
8:128:12 - basically why does this verse in Matthew Chapter 5 tell us to be perfect like god
8:178:17 - is perfect if we have absolutely no ability to live up to that standard um
8:238:23 - we cannot be perfect in the same way that God is right we said God is unique in his abilities he’s also unique in his
8:308:30 - moral perfection uh so I always view this as a standard um so we are supposed
8:368:36 - to be dead to sin as Christians that doesn’t mean that we are completely free from the grip of sin um so when we say
8:448:44 - uh when the Bible says that we are to be perfect this is what our goal should be
8:508:50 - um we shouldn’t make excuses for oursel we should not try to draw a line in the
8:558:55 - sand and say uh you know no further God this is as far as I will go this is as
9:009:00 - much as I’m willing to sacrifice but we need to press forward towards the standard that is complete Perfection
9:069:06 - because that is what God is um that is what we should strive to be um so um I
9:149:14 - don’t see a contradiction inherently in that being the standard that’s set for us even though we’ll never meet it
9:209:20 - because God knows that that’s why he sent his only son to die for us to make up that distance between us um the
9:279:27 - distance that just to be clear is there inherently we could not even if we were
9:329:32 - perfect which no human being can be because of the sin nature um uh this gets into a false Doctrine called
9:399:39 - pelagianism uh even one of us you know were we to quote unquote live a perfect
9:449:44 - life which is impossible we still have this distance between us and God a do you want to uh clarify this verse at all
9:539:53 - if you were talking you muted can you hear me yeah I can hear you now
10:0010:00 - okay um I don’t know if if it’s just a network issues on my end you keep
10:0710:07 - breaking up um but if you can hear me let me say this like you said and
10:1410:14 - another way that Prof Robert actually puts this matter of Matthew 5:48 is that
10:2110:21 - um it’s a job description so it’s like this is what you should be
10:2610:26 - doing and if you’re not doing it right then you try to do it better you know
10:3110:31 - it’s your job description it it doesn’t mean that we could possibly be that perfect uh Perfection is a gift that the
10:3910:39 - Lord is going to give to us but our responsibility is
10:4610:46 - to push toward it so it’s like working out just how the scripture say work out
10:5110:51 - your salvation with fear and trembling so we are we we we are like him in in
10:5910:59 - the sense since we have been born again we have the seed of God in us we are his
11:0811:08 - children carrying his DNA so to speak so we should act like it is what this place
11:1411:14 - is saying so we’re not supposed to um think in terms of first of all that we
11:2011:20 - can be be that perfect by our efforts no that’s not what it’s saying at all and
11:2711:27 - second of all that um we are somehow because there are people who hold that view too we are
11:3411:34 - perfect simply because we are children of God no we will be made perfect we’re
11:4011:40 - looking forward to that but the lord requires us to live like people who are
11:4711:47 - aiming to be perfect so um in other words as long as we are not perfect we
11:5411:54 - have work to do that’s it that’s the way we should be thinking about our lives um
11:5911:59 - then regarding Noah exactly as uh Lisa said
12:0812:08 - um that was that was speaking to his Humanity he was not an
12:1512:15 - Neel he was perfect a perfect human being like a true human being not
12:2112:21 - tainted in any way by the uh manipulations and uh what not of um the
12:3012:30 - uh the rebel Angels at the time that’s what that was speaking to it wasn’t speaking to his character
12:3712:37 - or well yeah it wasn’t speaking to his character where it spoke to his character was where it said that um he
12:4312:43 - was upright or something of that sort I don’t remember the exact phrase used um
12:5012:50 - so uh that was speaking to his Humanity we have evidence of the fact that he
12:5612:56 - certainly was not perfect in character with the wine thing you know of course
13:0113:01 - not that he was a drunk but then we should remember that Perfection is not that you do everything right when you’re
13:0713:07 - cognizant of it it is that even when you’re not cognizant of it you’re doing the right thing so you can’t be wrong
13:1613:16 - you can’t do the wrong thing unconscious of that the Perfection of Jesus Christ
13:2213:22 - is how that was the Perfection of God is like is how that was so the fact that you didn’t know that something was wrong
13:2813:28 - does not absolve you of guilt so likewise the fact that he did not know that he was
13:3613:36 - about to get drunk when he planted a vineard and you know made juice from it
13:4213:42 - and and had the juice and didn’t know it was going to do all of that to him his
13:4813:48 - only proof that he was just like us like every other human being flawed in his
13:5513:55 - character because he was flawed in his knowledge so um I just it wasn’t speaking this
14:0114:01 - character not that we want to get too caught up in the grammar and things this is the Hebrew here my Hebrew is a lot
14:0714:07 - rer than my Greek is um I did have a year of it in college but my Greek was much better because I had four years of that um so we have a prepositional
14:1414:14 - phrase here um this is this word here in Hebrew Hebrew is read right to left of
14:1914:19 - course so uh this is a masculine plural form uh that means over here if you want
14:2414:24 - to look at the Lexicon uh I think you could get away translating either of
14:3014:30 - like sort of times he was a man perfect in his times or his Generations um that
14:3614:36 - KJV is quite literal um over here we see that KJV and KJV translate this as
14:4214:42 - perfect in his generations and like aie has been clarifying this is with regards
14:4714:47 - to the fact that he was uh not of one of the Bloodlines of the Nephilim um he had
14:5514:55 - uh he and his forefathers you know to be fair it’s not just him had kept themselves uh set apart and pure in the
15:0315:03 - corruption that was racing through the world at his time and that is more or less what we should take this uh to be
15:1015:10 - what the text is getting at blameless or perfect in his Generations is getting at that sense not that Noah was an immoral
15:1815:18 - person but that it wasn’t drawing some sort of distinction between his perfect morality versus US normal humans but
15:2515:25 - that it was specifically getting towards that um I don’t know if that helps at all or
15:3015:30 - just makes it more confusing but uh anything to add there Audi or is that how we can close off these questions oh
15:3915:39 - no I think uh that’s that’s the wrap on that I think we can move on to the discussion now okay great well we will
15:4615:46 - pick up then um moving on towards those characteristics like we said we’re gonna do the first time picking up with God is
15:5615:56 - good so on the first first of these characteristics of God describing his
16:0116:01 - perfect character we’re going to be talking about how God is good now before I pick up here I’m going to note that uh
16:0816:08 - Dr lugan buil in the study since these paragraphs are coming out of the study has a few key vocabulary words that will
16:1416:14 - keep coming back up so we talked about goodness Holiness faithful and true
16:1916:19 - right those are essential characteristics of God part of his perfect character that will come to
16:2416:24 - manifest in creation um as love Justice and let me see love Justice and life um
16:3416:34 - and alongside those things we know that um the kind of mindset that God has
16:4016:40 - towards us corresponding to his goodness is Grace corresponding to his Justice is
16:4616:46 - Mercy and corresponding to his life the life that he has through reconcil
16:5116:51 - reconciling us to him is peace and so uh before we get too far ahead of ourselves
16:5716:57 - I do have a table uh that we’ll get through partway through this lesson that kind of maps all this out to kind of
17:0217:02 - help keep it straight but you’ll notice that certain words here are kind of bolded or sorry uh italicized uh in the
17:0917:09 - text of these and this again is done so on the study itself uh you know I just made the slides pulling from the study
17:1517:15 - and that’s because Dr Lil is trying to get us to follow these patterns um of how these words relate to each other uh
17:2217:22 - as as to how they relate towards uh God’s character and his uh sort of his
17:2917:29 - um attitude towards us as sinful humanity and so uh starting out here um
17:3417:34 - I know that was a bit of a a rambly introduction uh here specifically we’re talking about how God is good and so the
17:4117:41 - Hebrew word for good is Tove here Tove and it is the antithesis of evil um so
17:4717:47 - I’m GNA go ahead and just read this paragraph um uh this part of the study I will say has almost a very poetic bent
17:5317:53 - to it I think part of that is just Dr Lille has taken care to arrange the paragraph
17:5917:59 - so such that they’re very parallel to each other um so they they share a similar sentence structure in terms of
18:0518:05 - how he organizes the terms and the concepts and you’ll certainly see that when we get to uh the summary section of
18:1118:11 - this there’s a uh a grouping of how he he words it that really comes off very poetic um but in these paragraphs even
18:1818:18 - here you’ll get this sense of The Wider scale behind the characteristics of God
18:2418:24 - that we’re talking about um and this is why I kind of made the point that we’re specifically looking at God’s character
18:3018:30 - to help illuminate why he takes the actions he does with respect to us as Humanity um God’s attitude towards us as
18:3618:36 - sinful man um so I’m gonna go ahead and I will probably just read these uh as the way as we go through again uh keep
18:4318:43 - in mind that the italicized words we will link those back up as important vocabulary here um as we make sense of
18:5118:51 - the sovereignty of God and how he uh acts in the universe but going to go ahead and read this paragraph here so so
18:5818:58 - it says so how does goodness respond to sinful man in his goodness God always
19:0419:04 - has our best interests his heart therefore his desire for us to be free from Evil and devoted to good is genuine
19:1219:12 - even though we are sinful and by Nature Unworthy of his Blessing in his goodness God has nevertheless found a gracious
19:1819:18 - way to redeem us from sin without compromising his character namely by giving us the gift of his son Jesus
19:2619:26 - Christ now as we go and we look at the other characteristics of God you’ll keep seeing uh kind of this closing remark
19:3419:34 - come up over and over again God has resolved all of the sort of uh the
19:4219:42 - manifestations of his character what his character demands of him in terms of love and Justice uh through the cross of
19:4819:48 - Jesus Christ it was the move that the devil never saw coming uh the the move
19:5319:53 - that completely won the game in a victory that cannot be turned back so Jesus Christ defeated sin and death once
20:0020:00 - for all on the cross I mean it is the central turning point of human history where God won the battle not that there
20:0720:07 - was any chance that he would ever lose but it was the action that God took that
20:1320:13 - completely changed everything uh for his relationship with humankind and so that
20:1920:19 - is how uh you know for this slide specifically that is how we are seeing God’s goodness uh this action that he
20:2620:26 - took on our behalf a gracious way to redeem us but as you’ll see um as I’ve kind of been harping on here this will
20:3220:32 - come up over and over again the cross is the action uh through which we can see
20:3720:37 - God’s character working in his plan to redeem Humanity so opening this discussion aie
20:4420:44 - do you have more things you want to say on the goodness of God I I just thought of uh James one
20:5220:52 - where it said God is light and um uh there is
20:5920:59 - no not there is no shadow of turning with him I think there’s um there’s no
21:0421:04 - Darkness at all in him so I think that uh that is one of the things that
21:1021:10 - Professor Robert is trying is is looking to get at with that section um so I I
21:1621:16 - will say also that um yeah let me see if if I will find that that
21:2321:23 - is I think it’s earlier in the chapter yes okay there there is no shifting
21:3021:30 - Shadow mhm okay with him there is no shifting Shadow but there’s another place where
21:3521:35 - it says God is light and uh you might be thinking of John the Gospel of John is
21:4121:41 - that possible oh yeah you’re right first John one right or first
21:4721:47 - John John the Gospel of John chapter one talks about how the light came into the world I think I know what you’re talking
21:5221:52 - about have to I’ll have to look for the passage um I was thinking it was James chapter one
21:5921:59 - um God is light and uh there is no Darkness at all in him is first John it
22:0522:05 - is first John one picking up at verse five yeah yeah correct so in him there
22:1122:11 - is no Darkness at all so I think I see where Professor Robert is going or
22:1722:17 - looking to you know get to with uh what he’s saying there but every time that
22:2622:26 - I’ve thought of discussing um the character of God I find
22:3122:31 - myself uh wanting to speak from the perspective that God is love and then
22:3722:37 - unfolding the characteristics of love you know um first uh 1 Corinthians 13
22:4422:44 - where it says Love Is This Love is that and all of that because I I feel like um in exploring
22:5122:51 - that we will come to probably when I say Fuller appreciation
22:5822:58 - of what Professor Robert is trying to say there uh I I think um Lisa captured
23:0423:04 - it correctly when she said that um theology is a bit dense because it it
23:1023:10 - packs so much into so uh little really and if you come at God’s character from
23:1923:19 - from the fact that he is love a lot of things will begin get to unfold I will say we will we will get
23:2523:25 - there um that is one of the the applied goodness in creation um yeah it is a
23:3123:31 - slide in this lesson but uh it is five or six in the future at this point yeah I the
23:3923:39 - uh how he structured it basically is what I would change is what I’m saying I
23:4523:45 - find myself wanting to do that but I’ve not explored it as fully as I want to yet suffice to say that when he’s
23:5223:52 - talking about God’s goodness and talking about the antithesis the fact that it is
23:5723:57 - the antithesis of evil um this this uh uh reading in 1 John 1 um is very very
24:0824:08 - much what it reminds me of the idea that we’re still we’re still saying this that
24:1524:15 - God is different than um Satan
24:2124:21 - than I wouldn’t say just the universe because he made the universe to be good and then it got corrupted because of the
24:2724:27 - reion of Satan and uh all other creatures that agreed to um join him in
24:3324:33 - his Rebellion but the idea here is God is not just good in that um he he
24:4524:45 - is not evil he is good in the sense that he cannot be
24:5124:51 - evil that he is good so that you define good by him and
25:0025:00 - everything that is not him everything that does not derive
25:0525:05 - from him is evil so something of that sort is what we’re looking at when when
25:1125:11 - when um Professor Robert matches good and evil in this way that he actually
25:1725:17 - says God God is good and he says it is that is the antithesis of evil he’s
25:2425:24 - saying that there is no way to find evil in God which is something that is
25:2925:29 - speaking to the satanic Rebellion when Satan imputed God’s character with the
25:3625:36 - accusations he made and he did the same thing with Adam and Eve when he said you
25:4225:42 - will not surely die God is just trying to prevent you from becoming like him he’s trying to keep something from you
25:4925:49 - he wants it all for himself so to speak now this is essentially
25:5625:56 - attacking God’s character and saying it is not what it is but God cannot be
26:0226:02 - corrupted at all in any way he it’s impossible to corrupt him is
26:0826:08 - the idea of his being the antithesis of evil it is not possible at any point to
26:1526:15 - find evil in God so when when that question has arisen in in apologetics um is something
26:2326:23 - good because God decreed it or did God decree something because it is good
26:2826:28 - the answer to that really is if God says it or if God does it then
26:3626:36 - it is good that’s it yeah well because this to
26:4126:41 - me he is all good I I think it’s another one of those things where we what Audi
26:4726:47 - is is getting into is one of those apologetics questions um I is this not ether froze dilemma is that what it’s
26:5426:54 - called um I think you hard named youth
26:5926:59 - fro am I right or right yeah look at that um well we
27:0727:07 - don’t need to get into this I I’ve heard this before um you know is uh whatever um it looks like it came
27:1527:15 - up initially with Socrates or you know Socrates via Plato um but the whole
27:2027:20 - point is uh God is UN Alena good right good by definition uh the metric upon
27:2727:27 - which evil is defined comes through God’s goodness um so for us in
27:3327:33 - practice uh this is another one of those things where uh sometimes we might be tempted to put God in a box again and
27:4027:40 - say well how can we say God is good when there is suffering in the world or given
27:4627:46 - this this kind of very obviously horrific thing on the face of it well how can we have a good loving God you
27:5327:53 - know and we’ll get into this more as we unpack uh other aspects of God’s charactera character but how can we
27:5927:59 - believe that if this happens um that is a very common doubt um that people have
28:0628:06 - when it comes to the character of God um I don’t see the purpose in this suffering or in this evil in the world
28:1328:13 - um and so how can we say God is good you know that is the sort of challenge that comes up but it it kind of we are once
28:2128:21 - again when we do that we aren’t appreciating how big God is and how
28:2628:26 - small our own perspective is in this um you know it’s sort of like uh a a child
28:3128:31 - will say that um you know letting them eat lots of candy is good right it makes them happy but we know as adults that
28:3928:39 - the thing that comes after eating an entire bag full of candies and upset stomach um that is the sort of shift in
28:4628:46 - perspective that I’m getting at here um so we could very easily get off topic of talking about a whole bunch of aspects
28:5328:53 - of of all of this but you know I think as we go we will continue to clarify more about some of the aspects of God’s
29:0029:00 - character um and how we have to keep that perspective always in our heads about how much bigger God is than our
29:0729:07 - own perspective um and some of that just involves the faith on our part to trust
29:1229:12 - that even at the times when we don’t understand our default position needs to be to trust in God’s character rather
29:1929:19 - than doubting it or feeling that it can’t possibly be so um because no
29:2529:25 - matter what sometimes we may be pressured to feel by our emotions leading us astray we need to have that
29:3129:31 - sure confidence that God’s character is perfect uh the Bible tells us so right
29:3629:36 - right here Matthew 548 what we talked about and if the Bible tells us that then we need to trust that even when we
29:4229:42 - have a hard time understanding it um that could be a tricky lesson for us but that is certainly the standard to which we are called so I think that’s where
29:5029:50 - we’ll wrap our initial discussion here on God being good and we will pick up next with God being holy
30:0030:00 - all right so the next aspect of God’s perfect character that we are going to be discussing is God’s holiness and so
30:0730:07 - just as before Dr Lugo gives us the Hebrew word here uh Holiness here is
30:1330:13 - kados um again Hebrew readed right to left um so when we say God is Holy he is
30:1930:19 - completely separate from Evil he set apart so what this Hebrew word means the Greek word equivalent is hos I don’t
30:2730:27 - have that up on the oops I don’t have that up on the screen here but uh equivalent word in Greek as well and so
30:3330:33 - holiness means being completely set apart and separate from Evil so again I said I was going to be reading these
30:3830:38 - paragraphs getting that kind of poetic tilt to it and again notice the italicized word here here being merciful
30:4530:45 - and that’s what corresponds to God’s holiness So reading this paragraph we say so how does holiness respond to
30:5230:52 - sinful man in his Holiness God can never compromise his perfect standard for any
30:5730:57 - reason therefore his commitment to condemning evil and rewarding good is inviolable but even though we are sinful
31:0431:04 - and by Nature deserving of his judgment in his Holiness God has nevertheless found a merciful way to justify us in
31:1131:11 - spite of our sin without violating his character namely by judging his son Jesus Christ in our place so I said that
31:2031:20 - this uh ending refrain was going to come up time and again that the solution to
31:2531:25 - all of these apparent contradictions how God relates to sinful man are solved uh through the cross through his Judgment
31:3231:32 - of his son Jesus Christ to take the place uh for the uh payment of our sins
31:3831:38 - um and so this uh with regards to his Holiness God could not let sin go unpunished but in his Mercy Jesus Christ
31:4631:46 - stood in the gap between us and he took the punishment on our behalf on that is
31:5231:52 - Mercy uh satisfying the Holiness that’s part of God’s character um also his
31:5831:58 - goodness um his love for us so um do you
32:0332:03 - have thoughts you want to say on Holiness yeah sure
32:0832:08 - um so when I don’t know if anyone else has thought about this but the feeling I
32:1532:15 - had um the first time that I was going through Bible basics and I came to God
32:2132:21 - is good and then God is Holy was I’m not sure I see the difference I mean
32:2732:27 - God is good God is Holy and then you go on to say first of all the the statement
32:3432:34 - he made with God is good is um it is the God’s character is good it is the
32:4032:40 - antithesis of evil and then he says God’s character is Holy it is completely
32:4732:47 - separate from Evil so it’s like I mean didn’t you just say the same thing
32:5332:53 - in two different ways right so why why do you need to talk about God’s holiness
32:5832:58 - as a separate thing from God’s goodness in the first instance we’re
33:0333:03 - talking about how nothing that is evil comes from God
33:1033:10 - at all like this evil by by very by by
33:1633:16 - its very definition is an opposition to God so God cannot do evil there is no
33:2333:23 - possibility that if anything is evil it has its roots or origins in God this is
33:2933:29 - very important in our walk with the Lord because I mean when you get to a
33:3633:36 - certain stage and not too far into your walk with the Lord you do you do start to see that it makes no sense to ascribe
33:4433:44 - certain things to the Lord because they simply can’t be him he simply can’t be
33:5033:50 - like that um but Holiness is that there’s a
33:5733:57 - subtle difference here and the subtle difference is not just that nothing evil
34:0234:02 - can come from the Lord but that if it is
34:1034:10 - evil it has nothing to do with God so
34:1534:15 - it’s not just that it does not come from him but he is utterly separated from it
34:2234:22 - and the separation is not is not a small one it’s a wide
34:2834:28 - golf so when you see
34:3334:33 - goodness or something that looks good but does not derive from God and it is
34:4034:40 - actually evil the better you know the Lord the easier it is for you to tell that that thing is not it has nothing to
34:4734:47 - do with god so let’s talk about that in job it says that
34:5334:53 - he he found fault with his holy ones now that’s a very big
35:0135:01 - statement to make because Satan was so smart that it felt like his evil looked
35:0735:07 - like good he could get away with what he was doing because God couldn’t condemn it but God still found fault with it and
35:1535:15 - a lot of times in our own minds this is how sin actually seduces us we come to
35:2135:21 - think that we can we can understand a certain thing as being well not so bad
35:2735:27 - or well even good it’s we don’t have a
35:3435:34 - problem as we are right now people who have been training in the scriptures for
35:4035:40 - so long now in in Discerning that certain things
35:4735:47 - are just not God we don’t have a problem Discerning
35:5335:53 - that but look at the world around us there are those who are you might think
36:0036:00 - of them as being mischievous when they say certain
36:0636:06 - things but you you you might not actually see that they really do believe the things they’re
36:1236:12 - saying some people really do believe that one of the most popular
36:1836:18 - issues in the world today the LGBT thing is approved by God and they have
36:2436:24 - intricate involved arguments to persuade themselves and other people that this is
36:3136:31 - not really separate from God’s holy standard they they find it in consonance
36:3836:38 - with God himself and yet there’s a wide Gulf that
36:4436:44 - cannot be bridged between where they stand and where God is and the reason they can’t
36:5236:52 - see that is because they don’t know God’s character to be holy
36:5836:58 - okay so that’s one aspect of it that there is this massive separation between God and all that is evil the other thing
37:0537:05 - about it too is because God is Holy there is no reconciliation between God
37:1237:12 - and all that is evil so as we said with his goodness everything that is evil
37:1737:17 - stands in opposition to who God is and what God is about everything that God
37:2237:22 - does stands in opposition to all that is evil now we see that everything that God
37:2937:29 - does or is about is separate like it you cannot find it in any agreement with
37:3637:36 - things that are evil okay now this also means that every time there is evil
37:4437:44 - being done it there is a condemnation already a Divine condemnation on that thing
37:5237:52 - there is no possibility of reconciling it to God this is also why um
37:5837:58 - those well in Psalm it actually says evil shall not dwell with God there is no possibility of God coexisting with
38:0638:06 - that so that might raise a question for us which we have actually touched on uh
38:1238:12 - in our discussions at some point how then does God interact with the world filled as it is with evil
38:2038:20 - there’s such a separation between him and evil that there cannot be any
38:2638:26 - reconciliation right up to the point that even before evil existed there was
38:3238:32 - something there was a need for a cherub that covered a cherub that made a
38:3838:38 - difference between who God is and what God is about and all that is not what God is about and even after the fall
38:4638:46 - after Satan’s rebellion and after uh well after after Satan’s Rebellion after
38:5238:52 - man’s fall we still see that there was a cherub or cherubim now that guarded the
38:5938:59 - way to God and said essentially now that you are stained you cannot come close to
39:0439:04 - me so how then is God operating in an
39:0939:09 - evil world today so this this is a question we will
39:1639:16 - explore a little bit but we get we get a clue in what
39:2139:21 - um Roberts says when he says in his Holiness God has nevertheless found a merciful way to justify us now if you go
39:2939:29 - to First John again chapter one it says that he that he he is faithful and just
39:3539:35 - to forgive us so there is Justice a righteousness a
39:4239:42 - goodness in the Lord actually forgiving Sinners when remember again there is no
39:4839:48 - reconciliation between God and anything that is evil so now we are getting a
39:5439:54 - hint at a mass mive miracle in God that
39:5939:59 - makes it possible for him to forgive sin us so again I will say that the way that Professor Robert actually structure this
40:0540:05 - discussion of theology is to make this point of the miracle of Jesus Christ for
40:1140:11 - us I would structure it differently but I but the point here is he’s he’s
40:1640:16 - driving at telling us Jesus is the point and Jesus is the miracle that would make
40:2240:22 - it possible for a God who is utterly holy completely sep from everything that
40:2740:27 - is evil to reconcile Sinners to himself that’s the miracle sure I mean I
40:3440:34 - I definitely pointed that out that is the theme that is continually cycled back to in how he structures these
40:4140:41 - statements on God’s character it’s all about turning us back to see how the cross is the thing that reconciles all
40:4840:48 - these aspects of God’s character now I will say uh we probably don’t need to spend too much more time talking about
40:5440:54 - how can a holy God dwell among uh you know sin because we definitely spent time talking about that with
41:0041:00 - regards to light and Glory that was a couple uh a couple lessons back at this
41:0541:05 - point but um one other thing to mention AI kind of brought up this idea of uh
41:1041:10 - well if God is the antithesis of evil and we say his Holiness means he’s completely separate from Evil what’s the
41:1641:16 - distinction um at risk of oversimplifying uh I think it would go something like God cannot sin because he
41:2341:23 - is good but God cannot tolerate sin because he is Holy um so not so much his
41:3041:30 - sin but the sin of other beings um Holiness has an intolerance for the sin
41:3641:36 - the presence of sin in a way that simply not sinning oneself is somewhat different um so that’s how I view God’s
41:4341:43 - holiness bril and that’s also what ties us all the way back to like Audi said
41:4941:49 - the cross of Jesus Christ being a miracle right how we reconcile God’s
41:5441:54 - holiness with sinful creatures is nothing short of miraculous it is the
41:5941:59 - very thing that saves us uh that gives us our life here in the world is that
42:0542:05 - God condemned Jesus Christ in our place and we need to view that and again I certainly there are you know there’s
42:1142:11 - almost an infinite uh degree of ways to structure things to go about talking about who God is what his character is
42:1842:18 - but like Audi said the way in which this particular structure is structured this particular study is structured is trying
42:2542:25 - to draw emphasis that uh the cross of Jesus Christ is what reconciles these
42:3142:31 - aspects of God’s character um so uh I don’t have too much more to say
42:3642:36 - I think we have covered this one well um that is what makes Holiness um you know a distinct characteristic of God and I
42:4342:43 - would say almost arguably the characteristic of God that poses the greatest challenge to us as sinful human
42:4942:49 - beings right um you know yeah we we we have this huge Gulf like you’ve been
42:5542:55 - saying between between us and God um this is the aspect of God’s character that challenges our right to Salvation
43:0343:03 - um and that’s why the cross of Jesus Christ is such blessed good news for us
43:0943:09 - um that God is the one who bridged that Gulf through his son yeah all right well I think that is
43:1643:16 - where we will wrap on Holiness and next we will be picking up with how God is
43:2143:21 - faithful and true all right so picking up with the
43:2843:28 - next aspect of God’s character God being faithful and true so we have two Hebrew
43:3443:34 - words here remember Hebrews right to left but this here is Omen and Emet
43:3943:39 - these are other fundamental aspects of God’s character so God’s character is
43:4543:45 - faithful and true it is actively opposed to evil um so God cannot sin God cannot
43:5143:51 - tolerate sin God actively opposes sin and evil um God being faithful and true
43:5843:58 - uh you know truth and lies um aie brought this up when uh he he brought up first John chapter 1 talking about light
44:0444:04 - and darkness uh good and evil light and darkness truth and lies these are all
44:1044:10 - binary distinctions and God is uh good and light and Truth as opposed to evil
44:1644:16 - and darkness and lies um and so all of these are just ways in which we can
44:2244:22 - conceptualize God’s character and his relationship to the world so uh just as for the last two going to go ahead and
44:2844:28 - read this paragraph and note again how it always turns back to thinking in
44:3344:33 - terms of Jesus Christ and the cross as the solution to reconciling us to God um
44:3944:39 - so this paragraph says so how do truth and faithfulness respond to sinful man
44:4444:44 - in his faithfulness and Truth God is entirely reliable and trustworthy in all that he promises to us and does for us
44:5244:52 - therefore his veracity and dependability in offering us a way through Jesus Jesus Christ to escape the evil of death and
44:5844:58 - embrace the good of eternal life are Beyond reproach so even though we are sinful and by nature objects of his
45:0545:05 - wrath in his faithfulness and Truth God has nevertheless found a way to make peace between himself and us and to
45:1245:12 - remove the enity between himself and US caused by our sins without corrupting
45:1745:17 - his character namely by reconciling us to himself through the death of his son Jesus Christ so um God and and this kind
45:2645:26 - of gets also to what AI said last time uh 1 John chter 1:9 says that God is
45:3245:32 - faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and all unrighteousness right um it’s on the
45:3845:38 - basis of the blood of Christ that God can do that but he has promised us
45:4445:44 - Redemption he promised Adam and Eve Redemption right after the fall Genesis chapter 3 um I can’t remember if it’s
45:5145:51 - verse 15 I think it’s verse 17 let me see how good my memory is the Proto evangelium
45:5745:57 - um no yeah no okay not 17 my memory is not
46:0346:03 - that great definitely Genesis chapter 3 though after the curse probably it’s
46:0946:09 - it’s 21 it’s 21 um and the Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife
46:1446:14 - and clothes and this so-called Proto evangelium the First Gospel that we have here God promises Adam and Eve
46:2146:21 - Redemption salvation right the shedding of blood for the Forgiveness of sins as symbolized by the animals um you know
46:2846:28 - this uh the the blood sacrifice necessary to fulfill his justice as
46:3446:34 - we’ll get to his applied Holiness in creation but this is what we mean by God
46:3946:39 - being faithful and true to forgive us of our sins and all un righteousness is that through Jesus Christ God is Not
46:4546:45 - only able to but it is just it is uh you know according to his faithfulness and
46:5146:51 - truth that he can forgive us of our sins because Jesus Christ has TR truly paid for it all um and again this is just
46:5846:58 - where we get a sense of the scale of the Cross of what it represents as the solution to our problems as Humanity to
47:0547:05 - the sin and death problem to our that yawning Chasm between us and God is that
47:1247:12 - God has actually done so much already in sending his son to die for us that it is
47:1947:19 - the right thing to do to forgive us it is in line with his character it is in
47:2547:25 - line with truth to forgive us of our sins because Jesus Christ paid for them that should blow our minds a little bit
47:3247:32 - right because we know that we sin every day and yet the Bible tells us that God
47:3847:38 - is just in forgiving us on the basis of his cross it is in character with you
47:4347:43 - know him being the god of Truth to forgive us of our sins um that blows my
47:4947:49 - mind um so are there things you want to say on these aspects of God’s character
47:5547:55 - Audi yeah I I really like the way you’re putting it I think it’s very simple and
48:0148:01 - very succinct um I I want to stretch the bit the faithful and true thing is
48:0948:09 - specifically addressing the satanic Rebellion so uh like I said the approach
48:1648:16 - that I would have taken or that I still want to explore for myself is more from
48:2348:23 - you know God’s character independent of the satanic Rebellion but
48:2848:28 - this is in the context of our experience as sinful creatures who need Redemption and all of that which is very critical
48:3648:36 - because the Cross of Christ is really the whole point okay so when he speaks
48:4248:42 - to faithful and true this is actually a challenge to the satanic Rebellion which
48:4848:48 - essentially said God is Not faithful and he is not true he clearly is keeping
48:5448:54 - things from us things that are good for us he doesn’t want any competition so he’s keeping the best things for himself
49:0249:02 - um so this this is what um Satan essentially did imping God’s character
49:0949:09 - and this this is the nature of sin so if anyone has a question what is sin sin is
49:1549:15 - always imping God’s character and seeking to take things from him that he
49:2249:22 - has not given because we believe we have a right to them and God is denying us of
49:2949:29 - them so um when it speaks to faithful when we when we talk of God’s
49:3649:36 - character being faithful and true it is that he can be relied
49:4449:44 - on he can be trusted and this is critical to our walk
49:4949:49 - with the Lord especially in a world such as ours remembering again that the whole
49:5449:54 - point of sin is is that God cannot be relied on so in a world where we are
50:0050:00 - facing the pressures that essentially tell us why listen to him why don’t you
50:0650:06 - do what you what you want because after all you can’t trust him to be seeking
50:1250:12 - out what is best for you now the response of the Bible to that is he gave
50:1750:17 - his son for your sin and think about
50:2350:23 - it um when we take into account what you’ve just said Stephen how God delivered us through the
50:3050:30 - sacrifice of Jesus Christ it’s amazing it’s amazing
50:3750:37 - how someone who cannot tolerate sin someone who has no truck with sin he
50:4450:44 - himself cannot do anything evil and cannot tolerate it can still forgive
50:5150:51 - people who do in order for him to forgive people who do he has to do something
50:5950:59 - incredible something that Satan could not have known about because there was no occasion for that thing to ever arise
51:0551:05 - that God would create a
51:1151:11 - sacrifice in order to make it possible for the one who cannot tolerate
51:1751:17 - evil to restore to friendship with himself people who are
51:2351:23 - evil that’s a tri if we have any question as to God’s faithfulness and to
51:2951:29 - his truth that is the answer to it and that’s how we can get through the
51:3451:34 - hardships of this life and the tribulations that will come always thinking just like Paul said if he gave
51:4151:41 - us his son how will how how will he not together with him give us all things so
51:4851:48 - that is the Touchstone of think think of this contrast you brought this up I think this is a good
51:5451:54 - example uh contrast the Serpent’s accusation imputing the character of God
51:5951:59 - you must not eat from any tree in the garden right up here with God’s promise
52:0552:05 - of redemption right verse 21 yes God promises them salvation through the
52:1052:10 - animal skins Satan says God’s not trustworthy why would God tell you you can’t eat from that tree right he
52:1752:17 - implies something with that that’s not a neutral question that is a leading question saying yeah you know God doing
52:2552:25 - this is in some way making him not looking out for your best for your ultimate good whereas in fact God
52:3252:32 - promises Redemption and you have to just keep in mind think about the thousands of years in between Adam and Christ
52:3952:39 - right 4,000 gber take right um and and when you think about that 4,000 years
52:4752:47 - was this promise there I mean you think about Abraham right we’re talking about God’s faithfulness and Truth God tells
52:5352:53 - Abraham he will have an heir and through that air you know the his descendants would be like the grains of sand upon
53:0053:00 - the beach shore right Abraham had to wait decades for that son of promise
53:0753:07 - right for the son of the Covenant and this idea that we have here
53:1253:12 - of God demonstrating his faithfulness despite the odds how about Noah too while we’re on the topic of waiting um
53:1953:19 - what hundreds of years right Noah built the ark 120 Am I Wrong um I don’t know I
53:2553:25 - have to go look but decades upon decades Noah was trusting God and God
53:3153:31 - was faithful right um but notice in all these instances people many people the
53:3853:38 - world in fact says that God is not um Satan says God is not scoffers in the
53:4353:43 - world say God is Not faithful um and sometimes like Abraham and Sarah having
53:4953:49 - doubt sometimes we doubt it as well we doubt that God is really faithful um that he’ll really come through for us us
53:5753:57 - so you know just as with the other things if we doubt that God is good on account of evil well if we doubt that
54:0354:03 - God is faithful because we haven’t seen Deliverance up until this day like AI said just think about what that will
54:0954:09 - mean uh when the tribulation comes Upon Us in the world if God has already given us his son while we were yet
54:1654:16 - sinners what are we afraid of you know why why don’t we trust God a little bit more than we do um this is not to say
54:2454:24 - that this is easy stuff we’re talking about here uh trusting that God is faithful and true even in the face of
54:3054:30 - immense suffering that is no easy thing that takes you know an immense amount of
54:3654:36 - spiritual growth and character to Bear up under those tests and trust that even when we don’t see the point of Escape
54:4354:43 - that like 1 Corinthians 10:13 tells us um you know he will not test us past what we can bear but he will always
54:5054:50 - provide an out a way for us to uh never never be put pushed past what we can
54:5654:56 - actually handle um so it all comes down to Faith um it all comes down to our
55:0155:01 - trust in the character of God that when the Bible teaches that God is faithful and true and we can trust his promises
55:0755:07 - that we actually believe that um and uh you know this is um I’m trying to think
55:1455:14 - about the best way to phrase it maybe one of those things where uh especially if you grew up in church you kind of know the church answer to this question
55:2055:20 - uh yeah yeah God is good God is holy God is faithful
55:2555:25 - but if you believe that it changes how you live your life it changes your relationship and you
55:3255:32 - don’t doubt God because why would you doubt God if you actually believe that he was completely faithful um and so I
55:3855:38 - this I’m saying this as a challenge to myself as a challenge to all of us as we think about this is that when we say
55:4455:44 - that we believe that God is good that God is Holy that God is faithful and true if we believe those things
55:5155:51 - shouldn’t it change how we act shouldn’t it change how we view God in our heads um
55:5755:57 - we should give him the benefit of the doubt every single time there’s no instance in which we have just occasion
56:0556:05 - to actually doubt god um so obviously kind of harping on the obvious here boy
56:1056:10 - that was bit repetitious should say that what I’m saying should not be controversial we all know this but
56:1756:17 - living it is a lot harder than just knowing it um so I won’t ramble more
56:2356:23 - there um very important concept for us here to trust God’s faithfulness because
56:2956:29 - he was faithful in delivering us from our sin as he promised how much more so will he not Del Deliver Us from
56:3456:34 - everything else all the obstacles that come before us in life so uh I think
56:4156:41 - that’s where we’ll end this one and we will pick up in the next section talking about God’s sovereignty um as it applies
56:4856:48 - to his moral rulership of the
56:5356:53 - universe so now we’re going to talk kind of about the bridge section here in our study of God’s character so just like
57:0057:00 - when how we were studying God’s infinite nature uh we kind of tied um God’s essential characteristics to how they
57:0757:07 - manifest in creation uh through his uniqueness no one is like God in the universe we’re going to do a very
57:1457:14 - similar thing here with respect to God’s perfect character discussing how all of
57:1957:19 - how all of the characteristics that we’ve been talking about in terms of his goodness his Holiness his faithfulness and Truth manifest in the universe um
57:2757:27 - and so we are going to in so doing that be talking about God’s sovereignty um
57:3357:33 - and so I’ll read from the slide here a little bit we’re going to go through several slides here in this one um
57:3857:38 - talking about how all of these things kind of Link together and give us that uh that full picture of God’s Redemptive
57:4557:45 - plan for human history which as we’ve noted a couple times here has been the way that Dr Lil has structured um this
57:5257:52 - study of God theology proper at least this initial section on God’s nature and
57:5757:57 - character so sovereignty um kind of a long word here sovereignty comes from
58:0358:03 - God’s perfect character so just how on account of his uniqueness we said that no one else God is Du all the honor and
58:1058:10 - the glory because no one else is like him in the universe well no one else has a legitimate right to rule over the
58:1658:16 - universe and that’s what we mean by God being Sovereign he is the absolute Sovereign within his own creation and
58:2258:22 - therefore the one person to whom all honor is due sovereignty thus speaks to God’s moral Authority and right to order
58:2958:29 - the universe however he chooses so if God is the defao ruler of the Universe on account of his abilities that no one
58:3758:37 - uh no one else is omnipotent and omniscient and omnipresent well it’s
58:4258:42 - because of his moral Authority that God is the deure ruler of the universe
58:4758:47 - because no one else has the right to judge moral creatures in the way that God does from the standpoint of his
58:5458:54 - Transcendence of the moral Universe God is Sovereign by virtue of his goodness his Holiness and his truth essential
59:0059:00 - qualities independent of his creation those are the things we’ve just talked about and here’s where we get the bridge
59:0659:06 - uh to the next things that we’re going to be discussing so those were the things that were his essential qualities
59:1259:12 - independent of his creation but from the standpoint of his Supremacy within the moral Universe God is Sovereign by
59:1959:19 - virtue of his love his Justice and life qualities applying to his creation which
59:2459:24 - Corr respond to goodness Holiness and Truth um so this is very similar to how we had discussion in the first series
59:3259:32 - how these things were linked together except now we’re talking about God’s sovereignty his moral Authority and right to order the universe from a moral
59:4059:40 - standpoint only God is qualified to be the ultimate judge of the morally accountable creatures he has created so
59:4759:47 - that’s us that’s Angels creatures with Free Will and thus to hold them responsible for their actions as day
59:5459:54 - fact of the riverse the de facto ruler of the universe through his perfect
59:5959:59 - nature and dejur ruler of the universe through his perfect character God can do
1:00:051:00:05 - these things and so that’s the next several slides that we’re going to talk about this is why I said all of this stuff all part of one cohesive whole so
1:00:121:00:12 - because God is the de facto and deur ruler of the universe through his perfect nature and his perfect character
1:00:181:00:18 - God can God possesses The Sovereign authority to demonstrate love to his
1:00:231:00:23 - sinful creatures out of his own goodness and so these slides are going to be showing you that relationship between
1:00:291:00:29 - these essential qualities of God and these qualities working themselves out in creation so here we have um God
1:00:371:00:37 - demonstrating love out of his goodness next we’re GNA have Justice coming from Holiness and after that life coming from
1:00:431:00:43 - truth and faithfulness but this first one God possesses The Sovereign authority to demonstrate love to his
1:00:491:00:49 - sinful creatures out of his goodness not ignoring their sins as evil
1:00:551:00:55 - suggests he should but paying for them himself by the death on the cross of his son Jesus Christ in their place this
1:01:021:01:02 - process what we just said there paying for the sins through the death of his son on the cross that’s called
1:01:081:01:08 - Redemption so we call the result of this act of his sovereignty Grace we are
1:01:131:01:13 - saved by grace through faith that’s commonly how you’ll hear it uh Hebrew word for this word is so that’s a a very
1:01:211:01:21 - difficult character for us as English speakers to pronounce um and the Hebrew true word here is Cardis um starting
1:01:271:01:27 - with a Kai um so Grace is the God’s
1:01:321:01:32 - attitude God’s Sovereign attitude towards man as a demonstration of his goodness and his love for us next one
1:01:401:01:40 - God possesses you know again God being the de facto deur ruler of the Universe
1:01:461:01:46 - um as the deao deur ruler of the universe God possesses The Sovereign authority to administer Justice to his
1:01:531:01:53 - sinful creatures out of his Holiness so not abandoning them to their sins as evil suggests he must but forgiving them
1:02:011:02:01 - himself on the basis of the death on the cross of his son Jesus Christ in their place so uh before we said that paying
1:02:091:02:09 - for our sins on the cross through the death of Christ was Redemption here we’re saying that forgiving our sins
1:02:161:02:16 - based on the death of Christ on the cross is called justification um these are important words in terms of what we
1:02:231:02:23 - would call atonement theory in terms of this progression of how God Saves
1:02:281:02:28 - mankind um so we call the result of this act of his sovereignty Mercy um again
1:02:341:02:34 - Hebrew word here and Greek is alos um important sort of technical theological
1:02:411:02:41 - vocabulary all over the place here um God forgives us and that is
1:02:471:02:47 - justification forgiving us on the basis of the blood of his son and God doesn’t
1:02:531:02:53 - have to forgive us that’s what makes this Mercy is that in no way did God have to send his son to forgive us out
1:02:581:02:58 - of our sins uh to get us out of our sins he did that because of his Mercy right
1:03:041:03:04 - he paid for our sins uh as an act of Grace he forgives of forgives us of our
1:03:091:03:09 - sins as an act of mercy and that leads us to this third one that as de facto and de Jer a ruler of the universe God
1:03:171:03:17 - possesses The Sovereign authority to give life to his sinful creatures out of his truth and his
1:03:231:03:23 - faithfulness not allowing his creatures to die in their sins as evil suggests he
1:03:281:03:28 - will but reconciling them to himself through the the death on the cross of his son Jesus Christ in their place this
1:03:351:03:35 - is what we call reconciliation we are reconciled to the father through the blood of Christ we call the result of
1:03:421:03:42 - this act of his sovereignty peace again Hebrew word and Greek word probably heard this one before Hebrew word is
1:03:491:03:49 - Shalom peace and the Greek word is a um and so these are all of these things
1:03:581:03:58 - speak of God’s Redemptive purpose in human history redeeming us to himself despite what evil says so if you compare
1:04:051:04:05 - across um these three slides making all of these points in sequential order here
1:04:101:04:10 - evil suggests that God should ignore their sins but instead God paid for them
1:04:161:04:16 - evil suggests that God should abandon us to our sins but God forgave us instead
1:04:221:04:22 - and evil suggests that God should allow us to die in our sins but instead God
1:04:271:04:27 - reconciled us to him um and so this is the powerful story of redemption that
1:04:321:04:32 - God has wrought throughout history this is why the cross of Jesus Christ was
1:04:371:04:37 - that winning move that we’ve been talking about in fact this is the very reason why human history is playing out
1:04:431:04:43 - as it is and that point that I just made is where a lot of Bible teaching on the subject they fail to make that
1:04:491:04:49 - connection they fail to realize that human history is a response resp to Satan’s Rebellion that God has created
1:04:571:04:57 - us in order to demonstrate that in fact sinful creatures can be reconciled to
1:05:021:05:02 - him despite what the angel said despite Satan’s PR platform saying God wouldn’t be able to do this that is exactly what
1:05:091:05:09 - God is doing and that is the reason why humans were created along with being created to demonstrate the glory of God
1:05:151:05:15 - but you know that’s sort of the the normal catechism answer but this is the wider meaning to human history all right
1:05:231:05:23 - so obious a lot to unpack there a lot to keep straight in our heads hence handy table right so we have been talking
1:05:301:05:30 - about God’s essential qualities manifesting in creation as certain things right so I’ve kind of titled this
1:05:361:05:36 - slide as God’s sovereignty in action um lots of technical terms here so God’s
1:05:421:05:42 - goodness manifests in his creation as love for us and through that love for us
1:05:481:05:48 - God has paid for human sin uh this is coming out of his sovereign attitude of
1:05:551:05:55 - Grace and results in our Redemption right so a lot there going to go ahead and go through this table and
1:06:011:06:01 - we may spend some time unpacking this as we go but God’s essential quality of Holiness manifests in Creation in his
1:06:081:06:08 - perfect Justice and the action God takes based on his Justice is Forgiven human
1:06:131:06:13 - sin um based on his attitude towards us of Mercy leading to our
1:06:201:06:20 - justification um so that is scratching out our sin in the legal record as it
1:06:251:06:25 - were that’s what justification is as to his essential quality of Truth this
1:06:311:06:31 - manifests in creation through god-given life um the action God takes is
1:06:361:06:36 - reconciling sinful man to himself out of his Sovereign attitude towards us of
1:06:421:06:42 - Peace resulting in our reconciliation with him so in all of these things you can
1:06:481:06:48 - see that God’s full plan for saving sinful man absolutely everything in this plan relies upon the cross the blood of
1:06:561:06:56 - Jesus Christ um so I actually really like this way phrasing it I don’t even remember where I came across this I
1:07:011:07:01 - think it was like when I was younger a kid maybe 10 12 um I’ve heard it phrased this way that God’s mercy and Justice
1:07:081:07:08 - intersect in the cross right the cross is everything as it relates to saving
1:07:141:07:14 - mankind out of our sins um so uh we may need to go through this a couple times I
1:07:191:07:19 - mean I sure had to uh make sure that I squinted at it and and got it all straight in the words in our head um and
1:07:271:07:27 - you know obviously these things that we’re talking about Redemption justification reconciliation um these are parts of
1:07:331:07:33 - that process that we go through as Christian and how we relate to God what God has done for us in a theological
1:07:391:07:39 - sense so um all sorts of places where we could take this but I know I’ve talked
1:07:451:07:45 - for a good few minutes here this is how we see God’s
1:07:501:07:50 - sovereignty uh play out in the universe God in sovereign in control of all events that happen but in particular we
1:07:571:07:57 - see God working uh for us for our Salvation uh through the sacrificing of
1:08:031:08:03 - his son Jesus Christ that we might be saved that we might be uh redeemed
1:08:091:08:09 - Justified um and reconciled to him not only now in time but also eternally
1:08:151:08:15 - forever more um so uh aie uh I’ll turn it over to you um
1:08:221:08:22 - what do you want to say um about all of this that we’ve gone through is there anything that jumps out at you uh that
1:08:271:08:27 - we kind of haven’t already covered here so um the satanic rebellion was a
1:08:331:08:33 - challenge to God’s right to rule that was what it was it was Satan
1:08:391:08:39 - saying I get why why don’t I get to be God too why don’t I get to rule over
1:08:451:08:45 - creation myself as well and um what Professor Robert presents is is an
1:08:511:08:51 - argument for Why God has has the right to rule he says that that right is a
1:08:571:08:57 - moral one and that it is rooted in God’s character and he goes on to explain how
1:09:031:09:03 - God’s how to argue how God’s character qualifies him to
1:09:081:09:08 - rule so that is a very solid argument and it actually is just as you said and
1:09:161:09:16 - as exis continues to unfold um in all of its studies
1:09:211:09:21 - that it it it is the point of human
1:09:271:09:27 - history human history is God’s argument for his right to
1:09:341:09:34 - rule in fact that is what First Corinthians 15 essentially says and then
1:09:401:09:40 - comes the end when he will hand over the kingdom to the father so the idea here is in the
1:09:471:09:47 - end all Rebellion is squashed all enemies are removed and God gets to
1:09:531:09:53 - exercise his full rights without any opposition to rule over the creation
1:09:591:09:59 - that he made I tend to think about God’s sovereignty in a in a
1:10:061:10:06 - multi-dimensional way on the one hand he has the right to rule creation because he made it I mean even if he was even if
1:10:151:10:15 - it were possible and it is not even if it were possible that to think of God’s character as anything but good he has
1:10:221:10:22 - the right to rule because made it well just almost think of it like intellectual property rights right you
1:10:291:10:29 - know exact we have that God can remix and modify because he’s the one who created it yes yeah so there is that
1:10:371:10:37 - right of ownership on the one half but the Bible goes beyond that which is
1:10:431:10:43 - actually you know it’s like when when God said to Israel in
1:10:481:10:48 - Mali um how did he put it that it’s in Malachi 1 but I’ll paraphrase the idea
1:10:551:10:55 - is this that even a donkey knows its master and will give due respect to his
1:11:011:11:01 - to its master and um a father has uh
1:11:071:11:07 - respect that is due to him so does a governor if I’m a father where is my
1:11:121:11:12 - respect I don’t get anything you you don’t treat me with any respect given my
1:11:181:11:18 - role my place in your life you wouldn’t be a nation unless I made you one that’s
1:11:241:11:24 - what he was saying to them and more than once in the prophets he told them your
1:11:291:11:29 - father was an araman was a Syrian and I I made him I took him out
1:11:351:11:35 - of Syria and made him into a great nation so basically I have the right to
1:11:421:11:42 - make demands of you because you exist because of me that’s the right of
1:11:481:11:48 - ownership and if anything were God that thing would have that right over the
1:11:531:11:53 - creation that it makes but beyond that the argument that um exus is particular focused on is the
1:12:001:12:00 - moral argument which is essentially this that God’s character is
1:12:061:12:06 - good and that he is he is loving he is perfect he does not do any wrong so
1:12:141:12:14 - everything that Satan has accused him up has been proven to be false see God
1:12:231:12:23 - cannot abide evil and he does not do evil and he reconciles the the evil
1:12:301:12:30 - person to himself if the if the evil person is willing to repent all of that is to say what better can you get who
1:12:381:12:38 - has your best interest at heart other than me in other words you are safest
1:12:441:12:44 - and Most Blessed under my wings this is the second argument on the
1:12:501:12:50 - one hand I have the right to rule over you because I made you on the other hand I have the right to
1:12:561:12:56 - rule over you because nobody wants better things for you than I do and nobody can provide those things better
1:13:021:13:02 - than I can like I am it for you if you’re ever going to have anything good
1:13:091:13:09 - it’s going to come from me that’s the second argument now that second argument is more important from the excess point
1:13:171:13:17 - of you because this is a fight um of free will we have to make a willing
1:13:231:13:23 - choice if we reject God’s right of ownership that’s fine he doesn’t rule
1:13:281:13:28 - over us for eternity but then we don’t end up in anything good for all eternity we are stuck in the Lake of Fire in the
1:13:341:13:34 - place of misery but that for that reason the main focus here is the moral
1:13:411:13:41 - right given the chance to make an existence for yourself rather than to
1:13:481:13:48 - accept one that I make for you do you do any better and we live in a world where
1:13:541:13:54 - again and again the answer to that is no that we don’t do better by ourselves we don’t do better away from God’s mercies
1:14:011:14:01 - and his Graces so we see that God’s right to
1:14:061:14:06 - rule is rooted in the Perfection of his character the true sacrificial nature of
1:14:121:14:12 - his love for us that he is willing to give the most to give
1:14:181:14:18 - everything even when we are in a position of enmity against him
1:14:231:14:23 - that is the Seal of his sovereignty the right he has to rule over us and that
1:14:291:14:29 - ends all of the satanic Rebellion it puts paid to all of Satan’s arguments because it
1:14:351:14:35 - says if you rule over yourself you don’t make anything better I can’t make bad
1:14:411:14:41 - things I can’t make an evil world I cannot and I can’t tolerate one and on
1:14:471:14:47 - top of that even if you have made an evil world I can reconcile you to myself
1:14:521:14:52 - and give you a perfect world I don’t think anything in the satanic rebellion
1:14:581:14:58 - in all the lies that we have b as human beings can stand up to this that’s the argument that exis is actually making
1:15:041:15:04 - now when we think of this in terms of sovereignty um in terms of the uh what we call de facto deur uh Authority that
1:15:141:15:14 - God has you might also sort of think of it like this if you view God’s abilities
1:15:191:15:19 - um in the same way you might view like an apex predator like a tiger right a tiger has might might makes right sort
1:15:261:15:26 - of thing right a tiger is the ruler of the Jungle simply because there is no one stronger than him right but a king
1:15:341:15:34 - is not necessarily a king because he’s the strongest right there might be
1:15:391:15:39 - Warriors or military leaders who have more military mind right or Scholars who
1:15:451:15:45 - have more intellectual Cloud a king is a the leader of a country at least
1:15:521:15:52 - throughout history right not that we have King so much anymore but you know let me let me go with my parallel okay
1:15:571:15:57 - um so a king is the king of a country not maybe because he is the strongest or the smartest but because he carries the
1:16:051:16:05 - scepter of rulership right um and when we think of in the Bible Jesus you know
1:16:111:16:11 - uh subduing the nations with a rod of iron making them the foot stol of
1:16:161:16:16 - God God is King of the universe by existential Fiat because he is the one
1:16:221:16:22 - with ownership right as we’ve talked about the one who has this uh not just
1:16:281:16:28 - because of strength but because of moral Authority um that is a level above just
1:16:351:16:35 - being the strongest that is having what we would call the moral right to control
1:16:421:16:42 - what goes on in his Universe in the same way that a homeowner for example might have the moral right to control what
1:16:481:16:48 - goes on in his home right or the citizens of a country
1:16:531:16:53 - having the right to self-determine what goes on in their country you see where I’m going with this right the universe
1:17:001:17:00 - is Gods to control by moral right um not just because he’s the strongest and he
1:17:051:17:05 - can impose his will upon others but because he has the right to do it um
1:17:111:17:11 - that’s God’s sovereignty yeah all right well uh you know
1:17:161:17:16 - obviously more to talk about in all of this um we will as you’ll see again uh as we turn to some of the uh what we
1:17:221:17:22 - would call as the characteristics of God manifesting in creation his love his Justice and his life here um we will
1:17:291:17:29 - once again uh see the essential qualities his goodness his Holiness and his truth as well as his Sovereign
1:17:351:17:35 - attitude towards us in grace mercy and peace all these things will recur as we talk about um how God manifests his
1:17:421:17:42 - goodness and his Holiness and his truth in creation um so those will be the
1:17:471:17:47 - topics that we turn to um in the next slides here um but this will kind of conclude the discussion that we’ve had
1:17:541:17:54 - here about God’s sovereignty so God is unique um on account of his infinite nature um his abilities that no other
1:18:021:18:02 - can match and God is Sovereign on account of his moral perfection he has the right by existential Fiat to order
1:18:081:18:08 - the universe as he sees fit because he is The Sovereign deure ruler of it these
1:18:141:18:14 - things together explain why God is due all obedience and honor and Glory
1:18:201:18:20 - because he is the ruler of the universe um both by nature and by character um he
1:18:271:18:27 - is the one that is in complete control of everything so we will pick up more as I say with these aspects of Love Justice
1:18:351:18:35 - and life on these parts of God’s characters they manifest in creation uh as we keep on going through the next
1:18:411:18:41 - slides in this lesson here all right so the first point that
1:18:481:18:48 - we are going to be going over now is how God is love and so this is kind of the
1:18:531:18:53 - manifestation of his essential quality of goodness as it relates to Creation
1:18:581:18:58 - for us in the universe and in the next couple sections we’ll also be talking about how his Holiness manifests Justice
1:19:051:19:05 - and his truth manifest his life uh but here talking first about how his goodness manifests his love I’m going to
1:19:121:19:12 - kind of read the paragraph This is again straight from the study on ichus here and then uh kind of go from there to
1:19:171:19:17 - elaborate on that so ikus says having love for his creatures is natural
1:19:231:19:23 - consequence of God’s goodness out of the intrinsic goodness of his character God loves us with a perfect love Desiring to
1:19:301:19:30 - help us in our sinful State however he does not Overlook his Holiness and Justice in the process and forgive our
1:19:361:19:36 - sin without consequence as evil suggests he should therefore God had to find a
1:19:411:19:41 - way to reach out to us in Love Without compromising his character and did so through the gift and sacrifice of his
1:19:471:19:47 - only son on our behalf um so this is very parallel to what we had been talking about uh in the last section uh
1:19:561:19:56 - talking uh kind of in this summary of God’s sovereignty and his Sovereign plan for human history as he redeems Humanity
1:20:041:20:04 - out of our sinfulness we talked about this this was this slide talking about how uh God possesses The Sovereign
1:20:101:20:10 - authority to demonstrate love out of his goodness uh so this should sound familiar is what I’m saying um because
1:20:161:20:16 - we just talked about that actually but um this is the same thing that we’ve been saying is that everything for us
1:20:231:20:23 - centers on the cross uh it is the inflection point in all of human history
1:20:281:20:28 - that that single winning move where death Was Defeated once for all and God does this out of his love for us so not
1:20:351:20:35 - contradicting his Justice he reached out to us in love through the sacrifice of his son that we might be saved um also
1:20:421:20:42 - building on that theological vocabulary we say that Grace is the biblical name for God’s policy of lovingly redeeming
1:20:491:20:49 - us from our sins through Jesus Christ um so this is his his loving kindness you
1:20:541:20:54 - may also see older translations like the KJV use that a bit wordy for us perhaps
1:20:591:20:59 - in Modern English but this idea of God’s good will his grace his attitude of
1:21:051:21:05 - Grace towards humanity is shown in this so we accept and receive God’s gracious offer of love and Redemption by
1:21:121:21:12 - accepting and receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as our savior um so for Evangelical Christians this is nothing
1:21:181:21:18 - new right we have salvation by grace through faith not by works um but we accept God’s love in fact we reciprocate
1:21:261:21:26 - God’s love only by accepting Jesus Christ as our savior U by believing in
1:21:311:21:31 - him that is uh our act as Christians by which we demonstrate to God that we love him back um so that’s where we’ll start
1:21:391:21:39 - here um I should also say that there’s an interesting verse uh I think it’s in 1 John chapter 4 it talks about how God
1:21:461:21:46 - is love like uh I don’t know we don’t want to get bogged down in the philosophy of this but um you know that
1:21:531:21:53 - basically because God is love we need to love one another just how God loves us so there’s a lot of uh what I would call
1:22:011:22:01 - practical application that comes across from this point um the Bible in a couple places uh uses God’s sacrifice for us is
1:22:091:22:09 - this ought to be defining motivation for us to lay down our lives for each other uh the Brethren our brothers and sisters
1:22:161:22:16 - in the church uh because we ought to follow God’s example um so that’s where
1:22:221:22:22 - all open us I mean we could certainly go through more of this passage here in 1 John chapter 4 but because God is love
1:22:281:22:28 - so also we must love one another um uh you know in fact this is basically
1:22:331:22:33 - verbatim word for word what we just went over in that paragraph from the study was that in this love God was made
1:22:381:22:38 - manifest among us through his kind of through his attitude of Grace that he sent his only son that we might live
1:22:441:22:44 - through him um uh very traditional formulation of the Gospel itself so
1:22:491:22:49 - Audie do you have anything you want to pick up uh based on what we’re talking about here specifically with regard to
1:22:551:22:55 - how God is love um yeah uh I I want to
1:23:021:23:02 - say that first of all um like you said everything is
1:23:091:23:09 - centered around the cross of Jesus Christ and uh thought that that has uh
1:23:151:23:15 - caused me to um try to make sense of is why like what does what does that mean
1:23:231:23:23 - um we know from First Corinthians 15 that the goal of everything that’s happening in the universe in creation is
1:23:301:23:30 - that ultimately the kingdom will be turned over to the father we also know that what started all the rock the the
1:23:381:23:38 - rockus in in creation was that Satan aspired to God’s throne and wanted
1:23:451:23:45 - to well commit a to take over the universe from the Lord we know that that
1:23:511:23:51 - was happening so the whole thing really is about the fact that God is the rightful King of the universe and um I I
1:23:581:23:58 - believe I mentioned last Saturday that um um God has the right to rule by by
1:24:051:24:05 - right of creation he owns creation but Satan essentially did not challenge that
1:24:101:24:10 - R he did not challenge that r on the basis of like well um You Don’t Own
1:24:171:24:17 - creation because you made it he challenged it more on the on the basis
1:24:231:24:23 - of you don’t love creation enough to Merit ruling over it because after all
1:24:311:24:31 - creation um comprises as well creatures that have a free will that is they have
1:24:381:24:38 - the ability to respond to God’s Authority either in submission or in
1:24:441:24:44 - Rebellion um so basically was like just because you made me does not give you
1:24:511:24:51 - the right to rule over me was essentially what he was saying and when he went on his um on his uh uh campaign
1:25:011:25:01 - to win the hearts and minds of his fellow angels of course we know that he
1:25:061:25:06 - made Arguments for Why God was not really acting in their best interest he
1:25:111:25:11 - had denied them of an actual physical body and probably restricted them in some other ways who knows what arguments
1:25:181:25:18 - he made but the ex disposition of course is that he was particularly driving at the fact that Angels lacked physical
1:25:241:25:24 - bodies that makes sense judging by what we saw in Jesus’s Ministry how he often
1:25:311:25:31 - had to deal with throwing demons out of the bodies of human beings
1:25:371:25:37 - so the the what is at the root of creature Rebellion is this this feeling
1:25:431:25:43 - like God is not acting in my best interest he doesn’t love me enough to
1:25:481:25:48 - give me what I need to have or what is right for me to have he is denying me of
1:25:561:25:56 - things that are good for me to have so it is actually the love of God that is being called into
1:26:021:26:02 - question if I am being denied something I want then God’s love is
1:26:091:26:09 - either not there or it is insufficient and if God does not love me as I need to
1:26:161:26:16 - be loved why should I obey him why should I submit to him because I will just live in
1:26:221:26:22 - misery so why Jesus’s cross is at the
1:26:281:26:28 - center of everything is that it is the perfect the ultimate demonstration of
1:26:331:26:33 - God’s love for his creation because here is the thing there is no greater love that it
1:26:391:26:39 - is possible for any creature to show than just as you have just pointed
1:26:451:26:45 - out laying down your life for those who are your
1:26:501:26:50 - friends no no man can do better than that but God want went miles better than
1:26:591:26:59 - that Jesus laid down his life for his enemies for his father’s
1:27:041:27:04 - enemies for those who if if they had the ability to do it they would drive God
1:27:111:27:11 - out of his creation they would even kill God if that were a thing that was was even possible that’s what they tried to
1:27:161:27:16 - do with Jesus Christ anyway we can’t do it we are God’s
1:27:231:27:23 - avowed enemies and his response to our enmity against him is to offer a
1:27:311:27:31 - sacrifice to reconcile us back to him to forgive his enemies that’s the
1:27:381:27:38 - biggest thing in the universe nobody can do it and that put the light to
1:27:441:27:44 - everything Satan has said about God whether to his fellow to his fellow Angels or to or to human
1:27:501:27:50 - beings at the root of everything sin is God is denying me of something that is good for me to have so he cannot truly
1:27:571:27:57 - love me or his love for me is insufficient now we have seen that he has gone well beyond anything we could
1:28:051:28:05 - possibly ask for by saying even though you have spited me and wronged me and
1:28:121:28:12 - destroyed my creation and even though you deserve the worst from
1:28:171:28:17 - me I am offering you an opportunity to come back into my family and here’s the
1:28:221:28:22 - thing Jesus gave us an excellent example of this an excellent demonstration of this when he talked about the parable of
1:28:291:28:29 - the of the prodal son The Prodigal Son returned recognizing that he had no
1:28:351:28:35 - rights anymore in his father’s house he did not ask to be restored to sunship he
1:28:411:28:41 - said make me one of your servants one of these slaves of yours because after all they they their tummies are always full
1:28:481:28:48 - they may not be looking forward to any um inheritance anymore more but at least I will have a full tummy and I will have
1:28:561:28:56 - gainful work that is worth doing this is the position that
1:29:011:29:01 - we could hope for we had no right to even hope for that much and yet what God
1:29:071:29:07 - did was not just bring us back as
1:29:121:29:12 - creatures in his Universe he brought us back as his sons not just his sons but
1:29:201:29:20 - coair with Christ so the cross of Jesus Christ is very well and truly the point
1:29:261:29:26 - because it demonstrates exactly the love that God has for his creation so that
1:29:321:29:32 - now the argument for God’s right to rule is both that yes he made the universe
1:29:371:29:37 - and is entitled to it because it is his creation but now for the Free Will
1:29:431:29:43 - creatures in it who have the right to respond to him either willingly or to
1:29:501:29:50 - reject him now he tells them I have the moral right to rule over you because nobody wants
1:29:571:29:57 - better for you than I do that’s uh I know when we uh talked
1:30:031:30:03 - about this in the last section we brought up I think maybe we didn’t I don’t know if we didn’t we should I’ll
1:30:091:30:09 - bring up the the parallel of parents um so we know that the Bible speaks of how we are to honor and obey our parents and
1:30:171:30:17 - part of that is because our parents want what’s best for us they have this right
1:30:221:30:22 - to govern so long as we live under their roof uh to govern our actions as their children because of their care for us
1:30:291:30:29 - they have been entrusted uh with our well-being and of course nobody is uh
1:30:371:30:37 - more in control of the universe in God you know who who holds the lives of all
1:30:421:30:42 - of his creatures in his hands you know so while human parents may have the lives of their children in their hands
1:30:481:30:48 - so to speak I you know up to a certain extent and uh perhaps even public servants so we might think elected
1:30:541:30:54 - officials uh perhaps fancy themselves as having the lives of their constituents in their hands well God has the lives of
1:31:021:31:02 - everyone in the universe and his right Angel and and uh human being alike um so
1:31:081:31:08 - one other thing I I just thought this verse in Romans is always such a powerful verse you know talking about how God died for us while we were yet
1:31:151:31:15 - sinners right um this is love you know I I was thinking there’s a verse in the gospels too uh Echoes this about uh you
1:31:231:31:23 - know for a good person someone might possibly Dare To Die maybe or maybe it’s only here in Romans anyway point being
1:31:291:31:29 - um this is self-sacrificing love and Par Parable The Prodigal son’s actually really interesting in context when we
1:31:351:31:35 - talk about love as well because part of love the love that we’re supposed to have as Christians is we’re supposed to
1:31:411:31:41 - celebrate like how God celebrates when Sinners repent um and I think very often our tendency as humans is not to throw
1:31:481:31:48 - the party for the repentant sinner but be like the older brothers that says but look at me I have sacrificed so much why
1:31:541:31:54 - are we celebrating for him look at look at all I’ve done right what about me
1:32:001:32:00 - that pride and ego get in the way right so even though what we’re celebrating is someone coming from Death to life we say
1:32:061:32:06 - but what about all my hard work where’s my recognition um but God’s love wants
1:32:121:32:12 - what is actually best for all of us um and I don’t want to get too off too off
1:32:171:32:17 - topic here because I’m sure we could ramble for a while but you know Greek has all these different words for love you may have come across a teaching that
1:32:241:32:24 - that hits on this a bit too uh so the form of divine love typically in view when we talk about how God is love this
1:32:311:32:31 - love we’re supposed to show to one another within the body of Christ and even show to the world is is the Greek
1:32:361:32:36 - word for it is agape um and it’s typically described as divine unconditional love um Love without
1:32:431:32:43 - strings attached so to speak and that is the sort of love whereby we love our enemies um there’s also sto that’s kind
1:32:511:32:51 - kind of like the love between parents and children familial love um filia it’s
1:32:571:32:57 - not actually used directly in the New Testament like the Greek word for that isn’t a fet which is a a verb that comes
1:33:051:33:05 - up a bit more um and then there’s also AOS which is the um uh you know sexual
1:33:111:33:11 - passion um and so these are all translated in English with the same word but specifically what we’re talking
1:33:171:33:17 - about when we say God is love is that God is a he is this unconditional Divine
1:33:231:33:23 - love that wants the best for everyone and that’s why he sent his son to die for us and take our sins upon his
1:33:311:33:31 - shoulders um to save us uh again out of this policy of Grace that he has towards
1:33:361:33:36 - us acting in what is actually our best interest um redeeming us right that’s
1:33:411:33:41 - the theological term here buying uh us out of sin that’s what redeeming is we
1:33:471:33:47 - have been redeemed as slaves to sin um so all very good points anything else
1:33:531:33:53 - you want to say before we go on to the next one no I I think we can go on okay
1:34:021:34:02 - great so now we’re going to be talking about how God is just and so uh God
1:34:081:34:08 - lovingly redeemed us out of our bondage to sin uh but God is also just and the
1:34:141:34:14 - thing that should blow our minds about this a little bit is that when God forgives us on the basis of his Mercy
1:34:201:34:20 - because he sent his son to die Justice is being rendered this isn’t
1:34:251:34:25 - like God is somehow overlooking our sin is that Jesus paid for it um the debt
1:34:311:34:31 - has been paid the accounts have been settled uh I think sometimes maybe we get uh I don’t know quite how the right
1:34:381:34:38 - way to describe this might be but maybe we don’t we don’t feel that as impactfully as we ought that when when
1:34:461:34:46 - Jesus was on the cross he paid for that sin uh this uh in other words our forgiveness had a price that came with
1:34:521:34:52 - it it wasn’t uh just with an arbitrary wave of the hand that God forgives the far forgives forgives us of our sin boy
1:35:011:35:01 - hard hard to say I guess um and so that’s kind of what we’re getting at here when we talk about God’s justice so
1:35:071:35:07 - I’m gonna go ahead and read again coming right out of the study here on ikus so it says demanding Justice for his
1:35:131:35:13 - creatures is a natural consequence of God’s holiness so holiness is that essential characteristic of God we’ve
1:35:191:35:19 - been talking about before his need to be separate from sin um so out of the
1:35:241:35:24 - intrinsic Holiness of his character God must must that’s a mandatory must deal
1:35:301:35:30 - with us in perfect Justice righteously condemning us in our sinful State however he does not Overlook his
1:35:361:35:36 - goodness and his love in the process and abandon us to our sins as evil suggests he will for God found a way to treat us
1:35:431:35:43 - as righteous without compromising his character and did so through the gift and sacrifice of his only son on our
1:35:491:35:49 - behalf there’s that turning everything back to the cross again that’s been that central theme here as it should be right
1:35:551:35:55 - when we discuss everything in the plan of God um so God didn’t compromise his goodness and his love here because he
1:36:021:36:02 - forgave us but he did so justly he did so uh in concordance with Justice
1:36:091:36:09 - because Jesus actually paid the cost for our sins so again with the technical
1:36:141:36:14 - vocabulary Mercy is the biblical name for God’s policy of justly I going to
1:36:201:36:20 - keep emphasizing that just forgiving us on the basis of the death of Jesus Christ we accept and receive God’s
1:36:261:36:26 - merciful offer of justification by accepting and receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as our savior um so uh this kind
1:36:331:36:33 - of pulls to mind a a kind of a reasonably famous verse here in 1 John
1:36:381:36:38 - chapter one that talks about um how God is actually just to forgive us our sins
1:36:431:36:43 - when we confess here if we confess our sins he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from
1:36:491:36:49 - all unrighteousness um I don’t want to just keep harping on the same thing but what we’re talking about
1:36:551:36:55 - is important um because uh I I think sometimes uh it’s easy in uh our modern
1:37:031:37:03 - times where we talk about how God is love um God is forgiveness we think
1:37:081:37:08 - about all these things as maybe God just doesn’t take sin seriously uh you know maybe he can just kind of wave his hand
1:37:141:37:14 - and make it go away or whatever but that really isn’t how we ought to think about it because sin is a deadly sin leads to
1:37:211:37:21 - death it’s what the Bible says the wages of sin are death and it is really serious stuff because sin separates us
1:37:271:37:27 - from God and absent the blood of Christ that we know redeems us we would be dead in our sins eternally dead in our sins
1:37:351:37:35 - and so it’s only because Jesus paid for that that God is able to justly forgive us of our sins um and so uh you know we
1:37:441:37:44 - might think of this as paying our debt on our behalf if sin puts us in debt then a just judge wouldn’t let that debt
1:37:521:37:52 - be forgiven without cause and Jesus uh the his payment for our sins upon the
1:37:581:37:58 - cross is that just cause that allows for the Forgiveness of our sins um that’s kind of the emphasis here on God’s
1:38:051:38:05 - justice and this is why we should keep emphasizing uh how almost
1:38:121:38:12 - um word’s escaping me here it’s just kind of how astounding the crosses in terms of what it reconciles what it
1:38:181:38:18 - means for God’s love and his Mercy um and his justice to all be upheld by the
1:38:251:38:25 - sacrifice that Jesus made on our behalf um is because God did all of this acting out of love but it also doesn’t violate
1:38:321:38:32 - his his Justice it does not violate the need for uh sin to be paid for uh in
1:38:391:38:39 - order to be uh kind of the record set straight uh the the books balanced so to
1:38:451:38:45 - speak um and again just to reemphasize that point that the only way in which
1:38:511:38:51 - our personal Ledger of sins and failures can be reset is to be washed personally
1:38:571:38:57 - in the blood of Christ and that only happens by us accepting and receiving Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior um
1:39:041:39:04 - so uh that’s how uh you know we accept God’s Redemption his payment on our behalf that is how we are forgiven God
1:39:111:39:11 - can only forgive us his Justice only allows him to forgive us if we are
1:39:171:39:17 - covered in the blood of Christ if we have accepted his payment otherwise he cannot pay for our sin um he cannot
1:39:241:39:24 - save those who are unwilling to be saved because his Justice simply doesn’t allow it um so this is what we kind of are
1:39:311:39:31 - talking about when we say that God is just um and his Justice will not be denied um you know that’s something we
1:39:371:39:37 - also get coming into uh the accounts of Revelation when Jesus returns in glory I
1:39:431:39:43 - think this is like Revelation chapter 19 picking up at like verses 11 see how good my memory is revelation
1:39:501:39:50 - 19 uh yeah so Heaven opens Jesus returns
1:39:571:39:57 - and then hap then Armageddon happens right he completely Slaughters the enemies of wickedness so um that is the
1:40:041:40:04 - Just Desserts of sinful unrepentant sinfulness and so we can be thankful to
1:40:101:40:10 - God that through the cross he’s given us this way to avoid that fate um and that
1:40:151:40:15 - is by submitting ourselves to God receiving his forgiveness on the basis of the death of his son
1:40:221:40:22 - so a you have things to add here yeah
1:40:281:40:28 - um do I really have much to add is just his Justice is
1:40:331:40:33 - um um that’s one of the things that Satan uh attacked as well we we will
1:40:391:40:39 - notice that Satan was not interested in attacking God’s nature that is what he
1:40:471:40:47 - is in terms of his abilities in terms terms of his power uh as God he was he
1:40:561:40:56 - was attacking God on the basis of his character that is what he attacked was
1:41:011:41:01 - God’s character he doesn’t love us enough to give us the things that are
1:41:061:41:06 - right for us to have he’s denying us of things that are good for us to have and
1:41:121:41:12 - um if we do something about it he is not
1:41:181:41:18 - just because if he acts Injustice he’s going to violate something in his
1:41:251:41:25 - character so he has to either tolerate sin which means he is not just or else
1:41:321:41:32 - he will be forced to do something that is actually uh in violation of that love
1:41:391:41:39 - which will sort sort of um prove his point that God didn’t love them all that
1:41:441:41:44 - much so if God tolerates sin he’s not just if he um go goes after them and
1:41:521:41:52 - punishes them for what they have done then he demonstrates that he really didn’t love them he didn’t want them to
1:41:581:41:58 - have what was good for them to have um so God’s justice is important and I
1:42:051:42:05 - think the the most important thing to note about Justice when we’re talking in
1:42:101:42:10 - reference to kingship and in reference to rulership is that Justice underpins
1:42:171:42:17 - security if you don’t if imagine in the home for example if children start to
1:42:231:42:23 - feel like um their parents don’t they play
1:42:301:42:30 - favorites if so and so does this he doesn’t get the same thing that
1:42:371:42:37 - everybody else gets so if he’s mischievous the parents ignore the Mischief but if someone else is
1:42:431:42:43 - mischievous the person gets the weight of all punishment dropped on them um
1:42:511:42:51 - this person gets all the nice things the other person so we know what that does in the home it creates resentment and
1:42:571:42:57 - and stuff this is where Justice actually matters because it it underpins the
1:43:041:43:04 - peace the harmony the security in a system so if God is Not Just then God
1:43:121:43:12 - does not have the right to rule over moral creatures that’s it and we feel the same
1:43:181:43:18 - way about the Kings we have right now wherever whether it’s a president or it’s a governor or it’s a mayor or like
1:43:251:43:25 - we have here local government chairman or whatever it is we expect fairness because without it we live in constant
1:43:341:43:34 - misery so if God is not going to address
1:43:391:43:39 - himself to sin rightly that means if sin is committed it has to be
1:43:461:43:46 - punished and if someone does right the person should be rewarded if he does not
1:43:511:43:51 - do that that’s a moral argument for his loss of the right to rule over moral
1:43:581:43:58 - creatures yeah so of course where where I I I come at
1:44:041:44:04 - the argument a bit differently is that I don’t really make a difference between Justice and love I I I see God’s justice
1:44:101:44:10 - as a demonstration of his love because if you love the people over whom
1:44:161:44:16 - you rule you want to make sure they’re at peace with each other and at peace
1:44:211:44:21 - with you which means everyone gets what is their their due what is right right
1:44:271:44:27 - for them to have what is rightful for them to have so um the sense in which I
1:44:331:44:33 - would come at it is is something along the lines of
1:44:401:44:40 - because God is just he does not deny us
1:44:451:44:45 - of anything that is right for us to have he is absolutely fair to to all his
1:44:501:44:50 - moral creatures you might have heard in fact um earlier today I was watching a
1:44:571:44:57 - video um a discussion a debate between Alex o Conor uh also called The Cosmic
1:45:051:45:05 - skeptic um uh on YouTube and Twitter uh
1:45:101:45:10 - with Dr Jonathan M maachi or something I don’t remember his son his soname too
1:45:171:45:17 - well so part of that debate was along the lines this was this was the argument
1:45:221:45:22 - that Alex made Alex is an atheist it was like it seems that where you born
1:45:301:45:30 - determines exactly what your disposition to God will be because this country is
1:45:371:45:37 - skewed this way that country is skewed that way and it’s like well so it means I’m predisposed to be a Christian just
1:45:431:45:43 - because of where I born and that seems to be a mark on God you just you gave me
1:45:491:45:49 - a raw deal and if you gave me a raw deal exactly how are you worthy of my
1:45:561:45:56 - submitting to your Authority so again the question of justice is still addressing the fact that God um either
1:46:041:46:04 - has or does not have the right to rule over us as moral creatures this is exactly the nature of the relationship
1:46:121:46:12 - we have with God it’s always a question of what we think of his right to rule over us some people come at that
1:46:191:46:19 - argument from thep Ive of wisdom as well um well uh if we are smart enough to do
1:46:251:46:25 - this and that and that and we don’t need God to do it for us then why do we need him to rule over us you know but in this
1:46:311:46:31 - particular case we’re focused on Justice and the perspective of the Bible on that
1:46:381:46:38 - is everybody gets their due which which is when you read Ecclesiastes which is
1:46:441:46:44 - probably the one book of the Bible that addresses the unbeliever although it’s
1:46:501:46:50 - it’s actually more focused everything in the Bible is focused on the believer really and um even even Ecclesiastes is
1:46:571:46:57 - telling the believer this is what life really is about so don’t waste your time pursuing this and that and the other but
1:47:041:47:04 - the unbeliever should be able to relate very strongly with what um Ecclesiastes
1:47:091:47:09 - says and at the end of it it says that God will reward everything that’s done so that’s also speaking to the justice
1:47:171:47:17 - of God and we see the same thing in Revelation and even in the gospels where
1:47:221:47:22 - Jesus keeps promising that he is returning with his reward in his hand so
1:47:271:47:27 - the whole idea here is God saying look what you get is what is fair to you this
1:47:351:47:35 - is the truth whether it is a matter of the experiences we are having in this life the way our own tests have been
1:47:421:47:42 - structured I don’t get tested the way anybody else is tested and nobody else
1:47:471:47:47 - other people get tested in the way that I would will never be tested because I’m
1:47:521:47:52 - different and God addresses me as me he doesn’t address me as if I was someone
1:47:581:47:58 - else that’s Justice and how does he deal with sin same thing across the board
1:48:061:48:06 - Satan wanted to you know have his cake and eat it too we can do this and get
1:48:121:48:12 - away with it because God is not going to violate his love for us by carrying out
1:48:181:48:18 - his Justice against us but in fact love demands Justice that’s
1:48:241:48:24 - the thing and and like like the Bible says he corrupted his wisdom with his
1:48:291:48:29 - own wickedness so when his heart was um grew arrogant against God he became
1:48:341:48:34 - incapable of seeing precisely how his wisdom had become foolishness if God
1:48:421:48:42 - loves he’s going to be just now um when we sin there has to be Justice against
1:48:491:48:49 - that sin but because God loves us he provides a way for us to be rescued from that
1:48:561:48:56 - judgment but that means he has to place something between his Justice and us so
1:49:031:49:03 - that his Justice is s is satisfied and we are spared and that
1:49:101:49:10 - again is where the Cross of Christ comes in so we see that in all every time we
1:49:161:49:16 - talk about God’s character for us believers of course for the Angels by
1:49:231:49:23 - extension we see that God’s character is fully fully expressed and fully taught
1:49:311:49:31 - to us through the sacrifice of Jesus because without that sacrifice God could
1:49:381:49:38 - not carry out his Justice against sin and still Save The Sinner so yeah yes I
1:49:461:49:46 - think one thing to just elaborate on here a couple points is that first of all God’s justice is in stark contrast
1:49:531:49:53 - to what the world calls Justice Audi brought up a couple examples here of how God uh judges us perfectly at the
1:49:591:49:59 - individual level which is something that human Justice systems cannot do at least completely properly I mean we can do our
1:50:051:50:05 - best um but even if our rulers are imperfect in their application of
1:50:101:50:10 - justice so for example they might favor the rich and Powerful uh that has been a characterization of so-called Justice
1:50:181:50:18 - systems throughout all history is well if you enough money and power you can kind of wiggle your way out of
1:50:241:50:24 - consequences under the law right not so with God though um so that’s one point in God’s justice when we say God is just
1:50:311:50:31 - we mean it um in all circumstances part of this comes with God being all
1:50:371:50:37 - powerful is that God has the capability to enforce Justice um so uh you might
1:50:431:50:43 - have heard of of people called enforcers in gains right uh this is not a label we
1:50:491:50:49 - would apply to God per se but um God has the ab the ability he has the power to
1:50:561:50:56 - carry that sword to ensure that Justice is Meed out effectively um and this is
1:51:031:51:03 - no small thing because um if the other guy has a bigger stick than you how are
1:51:081:51:08 - you going to hold him to Justice right um but God will God wins in the end you know we’ve mentioned this Revelation
1:51:141:51:14 - chapter 19 when Jesus returns the world will face God’s righteous judgment and
1:51:191:51:19 - no one will able to stand against God um so that’s one important Point another thing so AI had mentioned kind of about
1:51:251:51:25 - how a lot of the satanic rebellion was the skepticism that God really loves uh
1:51:301:51:30 - because if God loved us why wouldn’t he give us these things that we think we want right that are good for us in our
1:51:351:51:35 - opinion um well people doubt God too you know another reason why people uh have
1:51:421:51:42 - shall we say less than uh uh happy thoughts about God or you know Desiring
1:51:481:51:48 - to go after him is that they view God as fundamentally unfair um so you brought up that point about well what happens if
1:51:551:51:55 - you’re born in such and such culture such and such life circumstances doesn’t that put you to disadvantage right I
1:52:001:52:00 - brought up on the screen when you’re talking about that I brought up Romans 1 famous passage about natural Revelation
1:52:061:52:06 - which we’ve talked about says that everybody knows that God exists from that which has been created so truly people are without excuse to begin with
1:52:121:52:12 - but even in those circumstances in which people are born uh maybe into a
1:52:181:52:18 - household with less money less education less opportunity God knows all these
1:52:231:52:23 - things and because he perfectly knows our circumstances Justice will be perfect um so I all of this I you know
1:52:311:52:31 - kind of preaching into the choir I’m assuming but when we say God is just we are talking from a kind of divine
1:52:371:52:37 - theological point of view in a way that human Justice systems cannot match um
1:52:431:52:43 - and uh this is kind of what we mean when this entire lesson we’re going through is about God’s perfect character um
1:52:501:52:50 - human systems that are you know some sort of attempted mirror on uh uh God’s
1:52:561:52:56 - moral Divine Law God’s justice are only imperfect representations um but God’s
1:53:021:53:02 - justice is actually complete so uh any any more thoughts there or shall we go
1:53:091:53:09 - on to the next one yeah I believe we can I actually I have a something to bring
1:53:151:53:15 - up regarding that so I recently um was speaking to a
1:53:221:53:22 - friend of mine and W witnessing to her and um she’s an unbeliever so she
1:53:281:53:28 - brought up God’s justice and basically what she said was
1:53:341:53:34 - um she didn’t under she didn’t understand and she’s being perfectly honest like I believe I believe in her
1:53:401:53:40 - when she said that she’s like I really don’t understand when people say Jesus died on the cross for my sins I don’t
1:53:471:53:47 - she says I don’t understand what that means so I tried to explain it to her um but she basically her argument
1:53:551:53:55 - was why should I even be punished eternally for sins that I commit when
1:54:011:54:01 - I’m like I only live to be like 80 years old or 90 years old why should I be condemned eternally for like when my
1:54:091:54:09 - lifespan is only you know tiny compared to Eternity so her
1:54:151:54:15 - her so she said from the very get-go God is unjust because I because I
1:54:211:54:21 - deserve hell why should I accept Christ’s sacrifice why should even accept God’s offer of forgiveness
1:54:281:54:28 - for a punish that I don’t deserve in the first place it’s not necessarily I’m good enough to get into heaven it’s like
1:54:351:54:35 - I’m not bad enough to go H the idea kind of different the idea here being that
1:54:411:54:41 - temporal actions have eternal consequences and that is the the point of attack is that correct yes correct
1:54:491:54:49 - all all right aie you want to you want to take a step at this one first I mean I certainly have thoughts but uh you can go first I’ll follow okay so
1:54:581:54:58 - I mean fundamentally with regards to this one of the things to understand is that God is eternal perfect right that’s
1:55:051:55:05 - one of the things we understand about God’s perfect character so to take that Romans one passage that we brought up um
1:55:121:55:12 - you know basically we the reason why um and I think probably the root of this
1:55:181:55:18 - misunderstanding is that hell is not to punish us right unfortunately this has
1:55:231:55:23 - permeated cultural understanding of hell for a very long time you know I I’d say even among Evangelical Christians among
1:55:291:55:29 - people who take the Bible seriously take inherency inspiration seriously a lot of people still think that God sends people
1:55:351:55:35 - to hell to punish them the only reason you are sent to hell um Jesus paid for
1:55:421:55:42 - the sin of all on the cross right there’s this teaching in theology uh so-called Double Jeopardy right if God
1:55:481:55:48 - judged Jesus for sins then if God judges people for those sins in Hell well the
1:55:541:55:54 - sins are being judged twice you see um and the misunderstanding here is that
1:55:591:55:59 - human beings are not qualified to pay for sin um this is why the Bible goes on and on about Jesus being the lamb
1:56:061:56:06 - without blemish a perfect sacrifice that’s why he had to be fully God yet fully man to pay for our sin Jesus is
1:56:131:56:13 - the only person who has ever lived and ever will live who could pay for sin who was qualified to pay for sin human
1:56:201:56:20 - beings are not qualified to pay for sin because we are ourselves stained we are
1:56:251:56:25 - in like unworthy sacrifices but more to this question specifically if you don’t
1:56:311:56:31 - view hell any longer as a way to punish human beings hell is simply the lack of
1:56:381:56:38 - acceptance of Jesus Christ the lack of this Redemption for sin then um I just I
1:56:451:56:45 - I feel like pun the punishment angle really gets in a gets in the way of people appreciating this point right when the Bible says that the only sin
1:56:521:56:52 - that cannot be forgiven is unbelief or blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which of course I this takes to be unbelief um
1:57:001:57:00 - that is people end up in hell because of that right because they choose not to accept God’s uh God’s offering his olive
1:57:081:57:08 - branch of forgiveness um so I don’t know if maybe if I’m not
1:57:141:57:14 - getting to the underlying root cause of temporal versus eternity but this kind of explains why human beings can’t pay
1:57:201:57:20 - for their sin aside from Jesus Christ um I mean you want to clarify it all I
1:57:261:57:26 - mean ises that help or do we need to talk more about well I think the whole okay so like she’s coming from a very
1:57:331:57:33 - just to give you a background on her she’s um really ended Theos gnosticism where she she like when she I
1:57:401:57:40 - was explained to her about Adam and Eve and how like death came into the world from sin and her perspective is well
1:57:471:57:47 - Adam and Eve were were perfect and they needed to sin in order to grow and become like God so she’s got this like
1:57:551:57:55 - like not like this view where sin is not you need sin to grow like she will never
1:58:001:58:00 - grow or be Sanctified unless well unless she makes mistakes and learns from them
1:58:051:58:05 - yeah and don’t agree but right I know like I know but like I think she’s
1:58:111:58:11 - viewing like I can see her perspective like if you’re a like a regular human
1:58:161:58:16 - being and you’ve never raped someone murdered someone like if I mean you sin but you’ve never really really hurt
1:58:231:58:23 - someone I can see where someone is like why you know other than like maybe Cara like oh I kind of like I was mean to
1:58:301:58:30 - this person today so then maybe someone’s mean to me three days later why should I why do I need someone to
1:58:361:58:36 - die for me that that that’s like why how are my sins so bad that I commit on this
1:58:421:58:42 - you know on this planet while I’m here so bad that I need someone to actually like be put to death for me that I think
1:58:491:58:49 - that’s where she’s coming from yeah I I when my niece um one of my
1:58:571:58:57 - nieces my brother’s children when they were here with with us uh we were having
1:59:021:59:02 - prayer session um one of our um morning prayer sessions and
1:59:081:59:08 - I I was trying to make a point and I asked whether I was asking each of them um do
1:59:161:59:16 - you have you ever sinned have you ever done anything wrong because I wanted to explain something about the cross and my
1:59:241:59:24 - niece my brother’s oldest daughter actually said no she’ never done anything wrong and I was like I mean
1:59:311:59:31 - she’s six so but I was so I mean I don’t I don’t think I had heard that in a long
1:59:381:59:38 - time that there was anyone who actually thought I’ve never done anything wrong I thought that was quite amazing to hear
1:59:451:59:45 - from anybody right but um some some people really just don’t count the big
1:59:521:59:52 - things like as long as I’m not doing yeah the Small Things They don’t count the small things so as long as I’m not
1:59:581:59:58 - doing some of those big things I’ve never raped never killed basically never murdered anyone
2:00:042:00:04 - and I’ve never um committed robbery if I pilfered it’s just pilfering it’s not
2:00:102:00:10 - that big of a deal if I told a white lie was just telling a white light it’s not like I actually went out there and and
2:00:172:00:17 - defamed someone or sland someone or something like that so if it’s all these
2:00:222:00:22 - small things well everybody does it can’t be that bad it’s not bad it’s just it’s just part of life and I mean I can
2:00:302:00:30 - imagine someone thinking that way but I don’t think I have come across anyone recently that has actually said it
2:00:382:00:38 - except for my six-year-old niece which was pretty interesting and when people
2:00:432:00:43 - say that if they would ever say it to my face I would tell them
2:00:512:00:51 - yeah if you were the one judging like if you were the lawgiver the law maker then
2:00:592:00:59 - I would say you have a point because you define what is right and wrong but since
2:01:042:01:04 - you’re not the one defining it and you’re the one responding to the definition yeah I don’t think I’m going
2:01:102:01:10 - to take your word for it that’s just the fact of it the Bible is actually pretty clear that God
2:01:162:01:16 - himself this is job that God found fault
2:01:212:01:21 - with his holy ones referring to the angels and that some that was something that didn’t register very well with me
2:01:262:01:26 - until I think it was even probably within the past few weeks that the thing that the import of that statement hit me
2:01:332:01:33 - which was essentially this Satan was smart enough that what he crafted seemed
2:01:392:01:39 - to be full proof that no one could find fault with it not even God that was the
2:01:452:01:45 - idea that God could not accuse him of sin in what he had just done he had
2:01:502:01:50 - basically essentially trapped God in a logical contradiction so how was God going to
2:01:562:01:56 - accuse him of sin that’s what he thought he had accomplished and that’s the arrogance of
2:02:032:02:03 - sin I I think one thing I want to Pivot to when we talk about this too is there’s the implicit assumption here
2:02:092:02:09 - that this punishment for like basically punishment fitting the crime is unjust
2:02:142:02:14 - um if you view that as a presupposition um this kind of comes into the Audie and I had briefly touched on this I don’t
2:02:202:02:20 - remember exactly when in our discussion of these things basically something good because God said it’s good or is does
2:02:282:02:28 - God just happen to conform to I don’t know goodness and Justice floating about there this in philosophy this is called
2:02:342:02:34 - the uer a dilemma um basically is it good and just because God wills it or does God will it because it’s good and
2:02:392:02:39 - just I I don’t you know for a lot of the time I think this is a pedantic distinction uh in practice however with
2:02:462:02:46 - regards to this question basically the Bible is pretty clear I pulled up this
2:02:512:02:51 - this verse here Romans chapter 6 saying that the wages of sin is death that’s very clear in Genesis chapter uh the
2:02:582:02:58 - early chapters of Genesis that um the the price for sin is death right um
2:03:032:03:03 - through through sin death came into the world sort of thing Romans chapter 5 talks about this as well contrasting how
2:03:092:03:09 - death came into the world through Adam with how reconciliation and uh I I can
2:03:152:03:15 - go pull up the context in Romans chapter 5 but how basically Jesus does what came through Adam right and and uh the many
2:03:222:03:22 - are saved through the actions of the one in Jesus um so where I’m going with all of this is that the Bible pretty clearly
2:03:292:03:29 - and unequivocally teaches that you know the the consequences of sin is death and
2:03:362:03:36 - separation from God um and so if someone comes to us and says well that’s
2:03:422:03:42 - unjust on where are they getting their their standard of Justice from right um
2:03:492:03:49 - you know basically because of the Bible teaches this and see this is one of those things where um it can be tricky
2:03:552:03:55 - to be convincing in an apologetic fashion in an intellectual fashion to someone who doesn’t want to believe um
2:04:012:04:01 - so if you say how this argument would work for us as a Christian probably goes something like the Bible clearly teaches
2:04:072:04:07 - that uh the consequences of sin is death um so not just physical death but spiritual death separation from God
2:04:132:04:13 - leading to Eternal and or second death is what we would call it um that’s the consequence of sin right and we all sin
2:04:202:04:20 - Romans 3:23 says that James 3:2 says that therefore absent uh accepting Jesus
2:04:262:04:26 - Christ as our Lord and savior that is the Eternal Destiny of all of us because all of us sin that’s the consequences of
2:04:322:04:32 - sin um where people get hung up is they say well murder is a quote unquote worse sin than white lies or something like
2:04:402:04:40 - that but fundamentally the the sin that we speak of here all of that has this
2:04:452:04:45 - consequence of separating us from God um and so for people who believe the Bible
2:04:522:04:52 - the verses I just quoted get you right there right but for people who don’t believe the Bible it’s going to seem
2:04:582:04:58 - like so much nonsense because they’re not looking with eyes of Faith they don’t have that spiritual perspective um
2:05:062:05:06 - so a rejection of God and it’s it’s kind of like if if you want to eat at my
2:05:112:05:11 - dinner table you’re going to have to take your shoes off and come into my house and sit down and if you don’t
2:05:172:05:17 - choose to do that take your shoes off you oh that’s not fair I want to eat with my shoes on then you know I’m not
2:05:242:05:24 - going to let you at my dinner table and it’s the same thing it’s a just rejection of the person of God it and
2:05:312:05:31 - them deciding know I’m going to do it my way which is fun with me go eat wherever you want but you’re not gonna eat a my
2:05:362:05:36 - tape that’s how God is looking at that’s an amazing analogy actually that’s like a really good
2:05:422:05:42 - analogy well if you want no part in God if you say you want no part in God and everything good comes through God I mean
2:05:492:05:49 - we believe that as Christians it’s self- selected right but where I’m going with
2:05:542:05:54 - this sometimes is it’s really tricky this is why it’s a spiritual gift apologetics is a spiritual gift how do
2:06:002:06:00 - we craft these things in a way that’s Winsome for the gospel without alienating our audience but we yet we’re
2:06:072:06:07 - not compromising on the truth and I don’t know I like I will confess you know even though I think Dr lugan Bill
2:06:142:06:14 - is actually rather Adept at it when he does engage in what I would term apolog and I don’t consider myself completely
2:06:202:06:20 - terrible at it either it’s just not where my strength is so I can give you the biblical argument I I laid out kind
2:06:272:06:27 - just back of the napkin sort of argument that I just gave you but when it comes to someone who will just reject that out
2:06:332:06:33 - of hand and say well I I just I don’t like I don’t believe that right I don’t
2:06:392:06:39 - have your assumptions I I I’m not willing to just listen to what the Bible says how do you convince them that what
2:06:452:06:45 - we’re talking about is just uh that God has the moral Authority that’s what we’ve been talking about in his
2:06:512:06:51 - sovereignty that this is how he structured the Justice in the universe
2:06:562:06:56 - that sinning against an infinitely uh just and holy God leads to Eternal
2:07:012:07:01 - consequences if someone doubts the justice of that what can you say to them
2:07:072:07:07 - in an apologetics context I mean good question off the top of my head I can’t give you an answer that I that I would
2:07:132:07:13 - assume they would find convincing and I think it’s important to note that they might not find anything convincing this
2:07:182:07:18 - point right right you know because something that I thought of too like like and I thought I kind of thought of
2:07:242:07:24 - this after the fact after I talked to her like maybe if I talk to her again I’ll bring it up but you know we we do
2:07:302:07:30 - live forever too like God doesn’t destroy us we don’t go to Oblivion we do
2:07:352:07:35 - like God created us to be forever so yeah so when we do sin it’s not yeah we
2:07:422:07:42 - we sinned while we were on this Earth but it’s still like kind of like an ET
2:07:472:07:47 - not eternal being sinning but I mean I mean I could see that part of it and then also like
2:07:542:07:54 - you see all the evil in the world and you see where sin leads like the wickedness of men and then I don’t know
2:08:002:08:00 - about you guys but when I sin like when I like yell at my mom and dad or lose my temper or something I can see like I can
2:08:072:08:07 - feel that emotion in me and I can see how like if it wasn’t checked how it
2:08:132:08:13 - could eventually turn into that wickedness and yeah and all of us too like you have no idea how much Holy
2:08:202:08:20 - Spirit restraint is on our lives like like the difference between a person who you know grew up in a loving family who
2:08:272:08:27 - like maybe when they get angry at their parents like you know nothing bad happens whereas maybe a difference
2:08:322:08:32 - between a person who had abusive parents like really abusive parents they get angry at their parents they might end up
2:08:382:08:38 - killing or hurting their parents like something like that where so yeah like
2:08:442:08:44 - even though we like it seems like we make we do small sins that don’t have a big consequence like those small sins
2:08:502:08:50 - and just that act of sinning the evilness is like in there you know what I’m saying like it’s yeah well and this
2:08:572:08:57 - is why this is why I was trying to emphasize that when you take the punishment equation out of hell because
2:09:032:09:03 - fundamentally the only reason why people go to hell is not because of sin it’s because right they reject Christ’s uh
2:09:102:09:10 - off you know God’s offer of Salvation suddenly this my sins are less bad than
2:09:152:09:15 - that other person’s sins goes completely out the window because that’s not why anyone Goes to Hell right yeah now I
2:09:202:09:20 - will say that I can’t speak for other Christians it’s uncomfortable when you
2:09:262:09:26 - when we teach about the scandalousness of Grace right the whole if Hitler repented would he have gone to heaven
2:09:312:09:31 - sort of thing biblically speaking salvation comes by grace through faith in Jesus Christ look at Paul who
2:09:372:09:37 - persecuted the early church I’m sure there were people in the early church who were not happy with God in God’s uh
2:09:432:09:43 - justice you know they probably put Justice in scare quotes who were offended by by the fact that God chose
2:09:492:09:49 - to use Paul as the Apostle of the Gentiles right the one who had persecuted the church um but you know
2:09:582:09:58 - we’re getting right back to you know every single person is uh worthy of that
2:10:052:10:05 - condemnation right and so this idea that we want people who uh you know committed
2:10:122:10:12 - all these really terrible things in life to be punished more I mean people that computes in
2:10:182:10:18 - terms of people’s justice but this is this is when we say Jesus died for the sins of the world it is what makes that
2:10:252:10:25 - so scandalous um is that absolutely no one deserves that that sort of redemption um go
2:10:332:10:33 - ahead yeah I I mean um what you said uh
2:10:392:10:39 - there was something you said I wanted to get in on but I think something else was overtaken it if anyone is really
2:10:452:10:45 - measuring themselves against other people I would okay yeah it was what you said about
2:10:512:10:51 - Paul um that was it and I think that was a very very good uh point to make even
2:11:002:11:00 - ananas who was sent by the Lord to give Paul the gospel was reluctant to go
2:11:072:11:07 - because of how unfair he felt it was this is the man who’s been murdering us
2:11:132:11:13 - and you want me to go and preach life to him so that he will be saved yeah that
2:11:212:11:21 - doesn’t seem fair and we might remember was the same position that Jona
2:11:272:11:27 - took so um but you see each of these
2:11:332:11:33 - things whether it’s the it’s the question of how we think our own sins stack up against what what really
2:11:402:11:40 - matters in terms of what must be called sin and how we stack up against other
2:11:462:11:46 - people it’s still missing the point point we’re making ourselves the definition of the law we are saying if I
2:11:542:11:54 - think it’s bad then it’s bad if I don’t think it’s bad then it’s not bad what
2:12:012:12:01 - how how does that compute in our minds in the eyes of the Lord the
2:12:072:12:07 - smallest sin is no different than the greatest sin that’s it and the reason we don’t
2:12:142:12:14 - get that is that we don’t know what sin is where God is
2:12:212:12:21 - concerned sin is a rejection of his right to rule and exist as
2:12:292:12:29 - God it’s a rejection of him of his own very self if he were a creature like us sin
2:12:362:12:36 - would be murdering him because it it denies the essence of his
2:12:422:12:42 - being sin is not just something that um like it’s not not cosmetic at all it’s a
2:12:492:12:49 - cosmic failure we look at it as a small thing but it is actually an infraction of an
2:12:572:12:57 - infinite Justice we have violated the justice of an infinite God which means
2:13:032:13:03 - we have done something that is infinite in its very nature but because we are confined in this state where we know our
2:13:102:13:10 - lives are measured in days that take by and we are we are the the the effect of
2:13:182:13:18 - the things we do don’t seem to Ripple that far it’s like why is it that big of a deal but it’s not about us it’s about
2:13:262:13:26 - the person that says do not do or that said do that’s the person that’s the
2:13:332:13:33 - that’s the standard of Justice that’s the person we are measuring against and when we did something that violated his
2:13:412:13:41 - Justice that thing is measured by his Justice not by us so there is no small
2:13:472:13:47 - sin in the the eyes of the Lord if the only sin that was ever committed in
2:13:522:13:52 - human history was one small white lie it would have still taken the cross of
2:13:592:13:59 - Jesus Christ to save the person who committed it even if that’s the only thing they ever
2:14:052:14:05 - did so there is there is no small sin in the eyes of the Lord whether it’s big or
2:14:112:14:11 - small is only measured by us in terms of how it affects those around us and that
2:14:172:14:17 - is a very small measure really it’s about consequences you know this is why this is such a tricky I pulled up uh on
2:14:242:14:24 - the screen by the way the ichus has a we will get to it if we continue doing um
2:14:302:14:30 - Bible basics you know hom mariology the study of sin there’s a lot to it right I’m not saying oh you have to go read
2:14:362:14:36 - 500 pages otherwise you don’t really understand sin but the point we’re making here is that this is a worthy
2:14:432:14:43 - conversation to have um about what is sin um what are the effects of it how does it separate us from God how does
2:14:502:14:50 - God forgive sin the mechanics of it um all of that um but I will say and again
2:14:562:14:56 - I I tried to emphasize this earlier even if what we’re saying doesn’t come off as
2:15:012:15:01 - uh convincing to people that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t say it um you know so
2:15:072:15:07 - uh there there may be this tendency to feel like we have to win arguments it’s not about winning arguments it’s about sharing the truth right and when we say
2:15:162:15:16 - that uh when we sin against a a perfect infinite just God it
2:15:212:15:21 - has infinite consequences and someone scoffs and said well why I don’t
2:15:262:15:26 - understand that I don’t get that that doesn’t seem fair to me it’s not our job to change their mind per se we present
2:15:332:15:33 - what the Bible teaches and then we let the chips fall where they may I mean obviously some people are called to
2:15:392:15:39 - engage more or less than others but um I I I think we’ve covered a good bit
2:15:442:15:44 - of ground here I don’t know you tell us Abby are there more facets to this you want to go over or um not right now I
2:15:512:15:51 - mean there’s there’s a lot we talked about so many things we talked a long time but um I’ll bring up
2:15:582:15:58 - more things later okay great yeah you guys did a good job on this so this is one of those challenges to God’s justice
2:16:052:16:05 - that we think about um people I mean people have a hard time with it you know the problem of evil just generally
2:16:102:16:10 - speaking not even talking about uh the the this justice of sin or people’s perceived lack thereof but just you know
2:16:182:16:18 - why aren’t evil people punished more um you know how how can evil exist in the world if God is just Etc um people
2:16:272:16:27 - question God’s justice they have they doubt it and they because of that they say I can’t follow such a God right if
2:16:342:16:34 - God’s really like that then he’s not for me um it’s a very real issue in the
2:16:392:16:39 - church but again fundamentally we can only do our best presenting the truth as the Bible teaches it but we can’t force
2:16:462:16:46 - people to believe it um and so if people are determined in their minds to have such a low opinion of God and his
2:16:532:16:53 - Justice that they won’t even consider how some of these things might work or or how what the Bible says is actually
2:16:592:16:59 - true there’s not a lot we can do to make them do that um all right well good conversation so I
2:17:072:17:07 - think this is where we’ll cut our discussion of God being just and we’ll pick up with the last one in this
2:17:132:17:13 - particular lesson talking how God is life in just a moment here
2:17:212:17:21 - so finishing off uh kind of how God’s qualities manifest in creation we’re going to be talking about life now um
2:17:282:17:28 - this perhaps is one of the more abstract consequences here when we say that God’s
2:17:342:17:34 - truth leads to life sometimes people are like well I would seems like even people
2:17:412:17:41 - who are you know buying into lies are still alive right I think um part of
2:17:462:17:46 - what might help understand understand this is when we talk about uh spiritual truth right the truth about who Jesus is
2:17:522:17:52 - and what he did um Jesus says um you know he talking about uh the bread that
2:17:592:17:59 - comes down from heaven this is John chapter 6 Jesus as the bread of life this is what sustains us as Christians
2:18:062:18:06 - not even physical food I mean it’s a metaphor of course but you know the idea being that uh we man you know also when
2:18:142:18:14 - Jesus is tested uh Jesus quotes scripture saying man does not live on uh bread alone but upon every worth that
2:18:202:18:20 - comes from God um not paraphrasing but happens during the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness um this is what we
2:18:272:18:27 - mean by truth is what gives us life um you might also think of uh John chapter
2:18:322:18:32 - 4 uh with the woman at the Samaritan woman at the well I’m talking about living water that’s the truth that
2:18:392:18:39 - Springs up within us giving us life um this is all over the place in the Bible
2:18:462:18:46 - so as I say maybe it’s a little bit harder to wrap our heads around this one in particular when we say well how does
2:18:522:18:52 - truth give us life um in fact by just going from the Gospel of John here in John chapter 8 um uh truth will set you
2:19:002:19:00 - free there’s another another verse that talks about how um you will be free indeed right if you believe in the truth
2:19:062:19:06 - if you abide in the word of God the truth will set you free and uh truly how
2:19:122:19:12 - we think about this is that are we really living if our lives are in shackles and bondage right we don’t have
2:19:202:19:20 - real life we don’t have uh an actual appreciation for what living means until
2:19:252:19:25 - we submit ourselves to God and we do the things that he would have of us because that’s the only time when we are actually truly free as humans um so all
2:19:332:19:33 - of this to say this idea of uh the God is life and the life that he gives us
2:19:402:19:40 - being firmly cemented in uh God being truth right God being uh uh filled by uh
2:19:472:19:47 - truth and faithfulness this is God’s aspect of his character manifesting in
2:19:532:19:53 - True Life in this world right Freedom leaving on the words that come from God
2:19:592:19:59 - that speak to the life the Salvation that we have in Christ Jesus um as we talked about in John chapter 6 John
2:20:052:20:05 - chapter 4 um and other passages besides in the New Testament this is kind of what we’re talking about here so again
2:20:112:20:11 - going to read some of the ichus passages here um so uh I’ll read some of the
2:20:172:20:17 - paragraph and then we’ll go from there as we have the last couple of times so when we talk about God’s life we say
2:20:232:20:23 - saving the lives of his creatures is a natural consequence of God’s truth and faithfulness so out of the intrinsic
2:20:292:20:29 - veracity and trustworthiness of his character God honors his gracious and merciful promise to restore us to
2:20:352:20:35 - himself and thereby to eternal life delivering us from the condemnation of death accre to us in our sinful state so
2:20:422:20:42 - we say that he is faithful to that promise he made right recognize these words gracious corresponding to love and
2:20:492:20:49 - merciful corresponding to Justice when God promised to restore us to himself as
2:20:542:20:54 - he did Adam and Eve in the Proto evangelium that giving of animal skins
2:20:592:20:59 - to Adam and Eve in the garden at the end of Genesis chapter 3 God kept that promise he redeemed them from Death the
2:21:062:21:06 - consequence of their sin um right the condemnation of death occuring to us in
2:21:112:21:11 - our sinful State we just talked about this we spent a long time talking about how the consequences of sin or death
2:21:172:21:17 - even Eternal death and separation from God so in doing so he has not failed to
2:21:232:21:23 - resolve the competing demands of his goodness and love on the one hand with those of his Holiness and Justice on the
2:21:292:21:29 - other as evil suggests he must and again tying it back to the Cross we say that
2:21:342:21:34 - this is because God has found a way in accordance with his character to eliminate the wall of sin and consequent
2:21:412:21:41 - wrath which separates us from him he has taken down the barrier of Separation
2:21:472:21:47 - that separates Humanity from himself and he’s done so through the gift and sacrifice of his only son on our behalf
2:21:542:21:54 - meaning that Jesus died and was judged in our place that we might have life um
2:22:002:22:00 - and so peace that other technical term here Shalom IR in Greek peace is the
2:22:062:22:06 - biblical name for God’s life-giving policy of reconciling us to himself on the basis of the work of Jesus Christ we
2:22:132:22:13 - accept and receive God’s offer of Life peace and Reconciliation by accepting and receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as
2:22:192:22:19 - our savior so no different than um how we receive forgiveness how we are
2:22:262:22:26 - justified by accepting Jesus Christ and how we receive God’s Redemption by
2:22:312:22:31 - accepting Jesus Christ so we are reconciled to God through our belief in
2:22:362:22:36 - Jesus Christ and what he did for us um so uh hopefully that’s a good enough
2:22:432:22:43 - introduction here to get us talking about the subject here um but this idea of our fullness of life that we have um
2:22:512:22:51 - I think you might uh consider the passages in Scripture that talk about peace and joy these are characteristics
2:22:572:22:57 - that we ought to possess as Christians uh that true life living in the power of
2:23:032:23:03 - the spirit that we ought to have by following Jesus Christ is that we ought to be set free from the shackles and the
2:23:092:23:09 - bondage that characterize those who are enslaved to sin because we have the Holy
2:23:152:23:15 - Spirit living within us that that springing up to us as a well of living water based upon the truth in the word
2:23:212:23:21 - of God that is what we mean by the life that God gives us that peace and
2:23:262:23:26 - Reconciliation to him that we have through his truth um so uh a you want to
2:23:332:23:33 - pick up from there yeah um get cut off yeah I think I
2:23:402:23:40 - started talking but I don’t hearing H yeah uh how about could you contrast
2:23:462:23:46 - life eternal life life with eternal death hear everyone but it doesn’t seem like you can hear can you hear me okay I
2:23:522:23:52 - can hear you now yeah so Lisa just asked a question uh didn’t mean it cut off what you were saying but it’s a good
2:23:582:23:58 - question so you want to say something and then we handle it or you want to just jump straight into the question
2:24:032:24:03 - uh well okay he seems to be having connection problems here Soh I tell you
2:24:102:24:10 - what aie um I’m G to go ahead and talk and answer Lisa’s question and uh if you
2:24:162:24:16 - can sort out the ction problems will certainly give you the mic at the earliest convenience so Lisa’s question
2:24:232:24:23 - here was um can we contrast life with spiritual life with spiritual death um I
2:24:292:24:29 - think kind of as it relates to what we’ve been talking about here uh fundamentally spiritual death
2:24:352:24:35 - corresponds with with lies it corresponds with not believing the truth
2:24:412:24:41 - of what Jesus has done for the world um and um I think this kind of gets back
2:24:462:24:46 - into what we were talking about with uh God’s forgiveness of our sins uh being just uh is that when God gives us life
2:24:552:24:55 - he does so um out of out of Truth out of his faithful promise to restore us to
2:25:012:25:01 - himself um he he he doesn’t do it just because he arbitrarily promises things but there’s weight behind the promises
2:25:082:25:08 - of God because of his character because he’s perfect and so when he promises to do something that thing is sure and
2:25:152:25:15 - certain it’s not like humans who can be kind of flaky sometimes when God says he’s going to do something God will do
2:25:212:25:21 - it and he does it not arbitrarily you know it’s not like he promised to do it and therefore he did it even though it’s
2:25:272:25:27 - not fair he did it on the basis of his sacrifice so okay Lisa’s question about
2:25:322:25:32 - contrasting this to spiritual death when we live um a life kind of infected by
2:25:382:25:38 - death infected by sin um you know our sin nature within us we are separate
2:25:442:25:44 - from God and part of this life that we’re talking about here is not uh people would take this and this is I
2:25:502:25:50 - don’t want to say just an English thing I I bet the connotation very across language but we are really talking about
2:25:562:25:56 - fullness of Life on that Hebrew word that we’re talking about here Shalom is more than just being alive it’s more
2:26:032:26:03 - than just consuming air in your lungs and eating food and sleeping and our bodily functions as humans it is like
2:26:102:26:10 - the idea of truly living of having that peace that reconciliation between us and
2:26:152:26:15 - God and when you think about it unbelievers who are dead in their sins are dead men walking they don’t have the
2:26:232:26:23 - quickening of the Holy Spirit to give meaning to their lives um I know I talked about this I have that other
2:26:292:26:29 - series up on my site going through uh sr4 Satan’s World System talking about
2:26:342:26:34 - the vanity of the world one of the benefits we have as Christians is that everything we do has Eternal meaning and
2:26:412:26:41 - purpose behind it we are working out the kingdom of God here in the world we are
2:26:472:26:47 - being used as instruments in the hands of the almighty and so everything we do has meaning and purpose um as contrasted
2:26:542:26:54 - to those who do not put their faith in Jesus Christ where for them they are
2:27:002:27:00 - already dead in their sins the things that they do are not contributing to God’s kingdom they don’t have peace with
2:27:062:27:06 - God they don’t have reconciliation they don’t have freedom in the truth I don’t know if I need to keep
2:27:122:27:12 - going on and elaborating at least that you can tell me if that’s good enough but um it is night and day difference um
2:27:192:27:19 - and I think It ultimately boils down to what we are talking about is not just
2:27:252:27:25 - you know breathing air and eating food we are talking about the spiritual aspect of this we are talking about
2:27:312:27:31 - truly being alive being connected and one with God through our belief do you
2:27:362:27:36 - do you see it I mean everybody talks about this but that that Matrix movie and the right peel I can’t remember if
2:27:422:27:42 - it’s the red peel or the blue peel or whatever you to see things more realistically
2:27:472:27:47 - you think it’s more something like that well uh so even Matrix aside this has been a thing in Philosophy for a long
2:27:532:27:53 - time and yes aie I could hear you um when you asked just now um uh there
2:27:592:27:59 - Plato’s allegory the cave talks about this um and the metaphor used there is actually light and darkness um also
2:28:062:28:06 - commonly comes up in scripture um the the binary contrasts here but
2:28:122:28:12 - um so is is that what we’re getting at yeah I mean you could view it that way for sure um like we are alive because of
2:28:212:28:21 - the truth we have right um so in Plato’s allegory of the cave this corresponds to
2:28:262:28:26 - not being chained in place looking at a cave wall but actually being out in the world where the there is actually light
2:28:332:28:33 - for us as Christians to use that metaphor that is us actually believing spiritual truth having our eyes opened
2:28:392:28:39 - and living in it as opposed to being chained in place in Satan’s World System
2:28:442:28:44 - um and that’s getting kind of back to the John 8 verse talking about how the truth sets us free is that we won’t live
2:28:522:28:52 - fully we will not have complete fullness of life without belief in Jesus Christ
2:28:582:28:58 - um can you guys hear me now yeah I can hear you so I don’t know how much you caught
2:29:052:29:05 - of what we were just talking about leis had asked a question uh comparing Spirit like the life we have spiritually with
2:29:122:29:12 - spiritual death um and so we were talking about that a little bit um okay so spiritual life and spiritual death um
2:29:202:29:20 - we know that uh that no we lost him again ah how sad
2:29:292:29:29 - um you can’t hear me well we couldn’t for a second um I mean you said
2:29:352:29:35 - spiritual life and spiritual death and then kind of cut off after that um and we can’t hear you now either um I I tell
2:29:432:29:43 - you what having connection issues um maybe maybe we’ll just keep going here
2:29:502:29:50 - sort this out Lisa have we have we addressed uh what you were asking more again yeah I do want to give Audi a
2:29:562:29:56 - chance to talk but it’s hard if it keeps cutting out um all right well I tell you
2:30:022:30:02 - what I’ll finish this off here it’s unfortunate that we’re having connection issues um but hello hello yeah we can we
2:30:102:30:10 - can hear you but I mean the last times you’ve you’ve been talking and then you’ve just cut out um yeah can’t hear
2:30:172:30:17 - you now if you’re talking yeah yeah something is wrong I don’t know okay um
2:30:222:30:22 - well we’ll finish off here um I think we have been through uh the greater part of
2:30:282:30:28 - what there is to say on this particular matter um so uh because of our
2:30:342:30:34 - understanding of the importance of spiritual truth to give meaning to our lives uh to truly let us walk as we
2:30:412:30:41 - ought in Freedom as Christians um again passages I like to support the concept of what we’re talking about John chapter
2:30:472:30:47 - 6 where Jesus talks about him being the bread of life John chapter 4 where we talk about uh the truth of the word of
2:30:542:30:54 - God being this this spring welling up to Living Water within us right I mean empowered by the indwelling Holy Spirit
2:31:002:31:00 - of course um these are the things this is what we mean by life when we’re talking about life we’re talking about
2:31:062:31:06 - spiritual life about being made alive spiritually with God as opposed to spiritually Dead uh through our sin and
2:31:142:31:14 - not being uh kind of connected to god um so that is the concept of of what we
2:31:212:31:21 - have been talking about here with this idea of God is life because God wants that for all of his creatures even those
2:31:282:31:28 - right now who are not willing to turn to him he has given them that option to
2:31:332:31:33 - turn to him receive forgiveness for their sins on the basis of the blood of Christ and live these full lives doing
2:31:412:31:41 - that which he has prepared for them um you know something else uh comes to mind here is uh in Ephesians chapter 2 uh
2:31:482:31:48 - after right after the very famous verses to talk about us being saved by grace through faith we have verse 10 that says
2:31:552:31:55 - that we’ve been created in Christ Jesus to do good works uh which God prepared in advance for us to do we have jobs as
2:32:012:32:01 - Christians again this is getting back to that whole meaning we have a place that we fill in the body of Christ and that
2:32:082:32:08 - gives everything we do spiritual value um that’s kind of what we’re talking about by being alive and all of this um
2:32:162:32:16 - from top to bottom is it’s all about the truth of God um as contained in the Bible in Jesus The Living Word of God
2:32:232:32:23 - like John chapter 1 talks about um talks about how Jesus is the Divine logos um
2:32:292:32:29 - the word who became flesh and dwelt Among Us um
2:32:352:32:35 - so all right well certainly more we could say there but I think that’s where we will uh that’s where we will close
2:32:412:32:41 - out discussion on this section and uh we’ll return with the summary of what
2:32:462:32:46 - we’ve been talking about in this lesson in just a sec
2:32:522:32:52 - here all right so that’s where we are going to wrap up now uh this discussion that we’ve been in in this lesson
2:32:572:32:57 - talking about God’s perfect character so we started out by uh talking about this
2:33:032:33:03 - introduction uh or sorry in the introduction talking about God’s idea uh God’s moral perfection the idea that he
2:33:112:33:11 - is without flaw he is the greatest that human Minds can possibly comprehend he
2:33:162:33:16 - has moral perfection um in in a way that we’re supposed to emulate as Christians so Matthew 548 says that we’re supposed
2:33:232:33:23 - to be perfect just how our father in Heaven is perfect we talked about uh the Greek word teos there is the adjective
2:33:292:33:29 - meaning perfect and it has this sense of completion that maybe doesn’t come through as much in that English uh
2:33:362:33:36 - English word here that is the sense of perfect as being full and complete um
2:33:412:33:41 - and that is what God is in every moral uh sense um he is completely morally
2:33:472:33:47 - perfect um and in that that naturally leads into uh essential characteristics
2:33:522:33:52 - of God God is good um the antithesis of evil God is Holy he has to be must be
2:33:592:33:59 - separate from Evil we talked a little bit about how these things are actually kind of subtly different is that God
2:34:042:34:04 - being good in like an ontological sense is a bit different than him needing to be separate from Evil um you know having
2:34:112:34:11 - to condemn evil um we also talked about how God is faithful and true his promises are sure and certain and then
2:34:192:34:19 - we spent a good bit of time uh in the bridge section talking about how all of these things translate into God’s
2:34:242:34:24 - sovereignty as de jur ruler of the Universe um the one who on account of
2:34:302:34:30 - his moral perfection has the authority to judge moral creatures so that’s
2:34:352:34:35 - humans and angels in the universe for their actions so we made all these sub
2:34:402:34:40 - points here that God possesses The Sovereign authority to demonstrate love to his sinful creatures out of of his
2:34:462:34:46 - own goodness to administer Justice out of his Holiness and to give life out of
2:34:512:34:51 - his truth and faithfulness um and you know we had this a chart that went through all of these things mapped the
2:34:572:34:57 - essential characteristics of God to their manifestations and creation that process of redemption justification and
2:35:042:35:04 - Reconciliation that happens uh through the working out of his love Justice and life for us as sinful Humanity um and
2:35:132:35:13 - then we closed by elaborating a bit more uh on on these on these aspects of God’s
2:35:182:35:18 - character working themselves out in the universe how God is love God is just and God is life and what that means for us
2:35:252:35:25 - as Believers um and as time and again we’ve emphasized all of this hinges on
2:35:302:35:30 - centers around the cross of Jesus Christ so we accept God’s offer of Life peace
2:35:362:35:36 - and Reconciliation that’s here this last Slide by accepting receiving the Lord Jesus Christ in just the same way that
2:35:422:35:42 - we are Justified we receive forgiveness for our sins through accept acting Jesus as our Lord and savior and we are
2:35:482:35:48 - redeemed uh out of God’s gracious love for us by accepting him um by believing
2:35:542:35:54 - in him and so that’s where we’re going to end this lesson here um so talking
2:35:592:35:59 - here about God’s perfect character after we have already come and discussed God’s
2:36:042:36:04 - infinite nature and in the next lesson we’re going to just be summarizing uh all of the things we’ve talked about
2:36:102:36:10 - here uh in reference to God’s Divine Essence um and so that would include his
2:36:162:36:16 - infinite nature and his perfect character as we’ve gone over just kind of pulling it all together uh maybe in a
2:36:222:36:22 - more easily digestible summary uh that can be referenced later as kind of shorthand for all of the things that
2:36:282:36:28 - we’ve gone here that we’ve gone through here so that’s what we will pick up with uh next time
Conclusions - The Essence of God
Video
Summary
In this lesson, we are going to be summarizing what we’ve done in the last several lessons, sort of pulling it all together. This will then conclude our discussion of the Essence of God: both His infinite nature, and His perfect character.
Timestamps
0:000:00 - Intro and outline
00:5100:51 - A reminder of what we’ve been going over
05:5005:50 - An overview in words
08:0308:03 - An overview in picture form
Content
(Derived from https://ichthys.com/1Theo.htm)
A reminder of what we’ve been going over
We have been talking about the essence of God: His infinite nature and His perfect character.
An overview in words
God’s goodness overflows with love, providing grace for sinful Man:
though evil says a loving God can’t condemn,
He did condemn His Son that we might live,
redeeming us in love with the blood of Christ.
God’s holiness overflows in justice, offering mercy to sinful Man:
though evil says a just God can’t forgive,
He did forgive us, by condemning His own Son,
making us righteous through the blood of Christ.
God’s faithfulness and truth overflow in life, producing peace with God for sinful Man:
though evil says that a God of integrity can’t restore us,
He did make peace between us through His Son,
reconciling us to Himself and granting us eternal life on the basis of the blood of Christ.
An overview in picture form
Video/audio transcript
0:000:00 - all right guys so this lesson we are
0:020:02 - going to be summarizing much of what
0:050:05 - we’ve talked about here with reference
0:060:06 - to the essence of God going back through
0:090:09 - the various lessons that we have made so
0:120:12 - the introduction and then talking about
0:140:14 - the infinite nature of God and then
0:150:15 - talking about the perfect character of
0:170:17 - God and pulling it all together in
0:200:20 - perhaps a more digestible summary form
0:230:23 - here in this last lesson for this
0:240:24 - section on the essence of God so this is
0:280:28 - going to be the structure of what we
0:310:31 - talk about in this lesson first we’re
0:330:33 - going to go back over some of what we’ve
0:340:34 - already talked about then we’re going to
0:370:37 - kind of P all together in an overview in
0:400:40 - words almost coming out poetically here
0:420:42 - and then we’re going to have a picture
0:440:44 - form this more less a chart that kind of
0:470:47 - pulls together all of the various
0:480:48 - characteristics that we’ve been talking
0:530:53 - about so to go over what we have been
0:560:56 - talking about the last little bit we’re
0:580:58 - just going to go ahead and review the
0:590:59 - out lines for the lessons that we’ve
1:011:01 - already done in discussion of the
1:031:03 - essence of God so the very first thing
1:061:06 - that we talked about with the essence of
1:071:07 - God was we were just introducing the
1:091:09 - concept we were talking about how the
1:121:12 - essence of God is being he is The Great
1:141:14 - I Am it is in God’s very nature to exist
1:181:18 - and then we talked about the respondence
1:201:20 - of God so God is light and that light
1:241:24 - gets at the sense of his unapproachable
1:261:26 - ility uh just how you can’t stare
1:281:28 - directly at the Sun and how glory is
1:311:31 - that manifestation of his of his glory
1:341:34 - in the world um so sorry the glory is
1:361:36 - the manifestation kind of of that light
1:391:39 - in the world so God operating through
1:421:42 - christophanies that came up a bit um and
1:451:45 - how we see God’s glory manifested in the
1:471:47 - world uh very much as uh we can see
1:511:51 - sunlight um so this these as kind of
1:531:53 - metaphors to explain the resplendence of
1:561:56 - God and then we talked a little bit at
1:581:58 - the end about how there are are various
2:012:01 - philosophical positions that people
2:022:02 - debate in regards to things like Essence
2:052:05 - and nature and substance and forms and
2:082:08 - philosophers have these words and how we
2:112:11 - are going to mostly be limiting
2:122:12 - ourselves to discussing the essence of
2:142:14 - God in terms of what the Bible itself
2:162:16 - actually says and so we’re not going to
2:182:18 - necessarily get into the weeds of all
2:192:19 - that um so this was the introduction of
2:232:23 - some of the things we talked about in uh
2:252:25 - this first lesson in this particular
2:262:26 - part of the study and then next we moved
2:282:28 - on to talking about God’s infinite
2:302:30 - nature and so in this we talked about
2:332:33 - God’s abilities uh kind of what he can
2:362:36 - do and what uh his status as this unique
2:402:40 - being in the universe is so we started
2:422:42 - out uh talking about how God is
2:452:45 - spiritual God is eternal and God is
2:472:47 - immeasurable in a spatial sense and all
2:492:49 - of these things which are what we would
2:522:52 - call Essential characteristics of God
2:542:54 - independent from creation make God
2:562:56 - unique um and so this was the kind of
2:592:59 - bridging quality uh that takes us from
3:023:02 - these initial three to omnipotence
3:053:05 - omniscience and omnipresence which are
3:073:07 - how these things end up kind of
3:093:09 - manifesting in creation itself so
3:123:12 - because God is spiritual he’s omnipotent
3:143:14 - he can do whatever he pleases in the
3:163:16 - material realm because he’s Eternal God
3:193:19 - knows everything the end from the
3:213:21 - beginning and because he’s immeasurable
3:233:23 - he cannot be bound in a spatial sense he
3:253:25 - is omnipresent he is everywhere in the
3:283:28 - universe so again
3:303:30 - this uh this particular section uh this
3:333:33 - lesson in the study going over God’s
3:353:35 - infinite nature and how that kind of
3:373:37 - sheds light on his abilities and then
3:403:40 - finally we looked at God’s perfect
3:423:42 - character and how that kind of helps
3:443:44 - illuminate his motives and so for his
3:463:46 - perfect character we were looking at the
3:493:49 - essential qualities of God that God is
3:513:51 - good God is Holy and God is faithful and
3:533:53 - true and then our kind of bridge
3:563:56 - characteristic here was how God is
3:583:58 - Sovereign and so this was probably the
3:593:59 - longest section that we went over in
4:024:02 - these few lessons here talking about how
4:044:04 - God is deure a ruler of the Universe on
4:084:08 - account of being the Creator um so God
4:114:11 - possesses The Sovereign authority to
4:134:13 - demonstrate love out of his goodness to
4:164:16 - to administer Justice out of his
4:174:17 - Holiness and to give life out of his
4:204:20 - truth and faithfulness um and so we had
4:224:22 - a a handy chart um in this set of slides
4:254:25 - that kind of like pulled together um how
4:284:28 - all of this works in terms of what we
4:304:30 - might call a theological vocabulary of
4:334:33 - redemption um so these these words here
4:364:36 - Redemption justification and
4:384:38 - Reconciliation kind of describing this
4:404:40 - process of God’s saving sinful man and
4:434:43 - as we emphasize time and again
4:454:45 - absolutely everything in the plan of God
4:474:47 - for saving us hinges upon the cross in
4:494:49 - the blood of Jesus Christ um so this is
4:524:52 - what we were talking about with uh God’s
4:544:54 - perfect character and then uh we closed
4:574:57 - off talking about how these aspects
4:594:59 - manif EST in Creation in how God uh
5:025:02 - approaches sinful mankind so God’s
5:055:05 - goodness is worked out in love God’s
5:075:07 - holiness is worked out in Justice and
5:095:09 - God’s faithfulness and Truth is what
5:115:11 - gives us life in this world uh just as
5:145:14 - we have the metaphor of the water of the
5:165:16 - word in John chapter 4 um as well as
5:195:19 - Jesus saying that uh we must eat his
5:225:22 - flesh and drink his blood uh in John
5:245:24 - chapter 6 that’s what gives us life um
5:275:27 - so this is what we have been going over
5:295:29 - um the last several lessons here and all
5:325:32 - this is to help us describe God’s
5:355:35 - essence of who God is what it means for
5:385:38 - him to be God so this is what we have
5:405:40 - been talking about and now we’re going
5:425:42 - to turn to kind of pulling it all
5:445:44 - together uh maybe in a paragraph or two
5:465:46 - as well as in a chart to help us
5:485:48 - summarize everything that we have been
5:495:49 - talking
5:535:53 - about so this is the part of the study
5:565:56 - that ichus has that kind of pulls
5:585:58 - together all of these qualities of God
6:006:00 - that we have been talking about um
6:026:02 - especially this as it relates to kind of
6:046:04 - redeeming us as sinful man uh from our
6:076:07 - sins and so as I read this here you’ll
6:106:10 - notice that uh the paragraphs have kind
6:126:12 - of been set as start almost in verse
6:146:14 - form and that’s because the way that Dr
6:166:16 - lug M arranged this it sounds very much
6:186:18 - it has the parallelism uh so to speak of
6:216:21 - poetry I mean it sounds kind of like
6:246:24 - what you would slip into in some of the
6:256:25 - Psalms that sort of thing and it really
6:276:27 - is a very good description of how God
6:306:30 - has worked out our Redemption um so I’m
6:336:33 - just going to go ahead and read this um
6:356:35 - and then we’ll go look at after this
6:376:37 - we’ll go look at the chart the picture
6:406:40 - that kind of represents the same
6:416:41 - information but more in a table format
6:436:43 - but first we’re going to go ahead and
6:446:44 - read uh kind of the verbal
6:466:46 - representation of God’s Redemptive plan
6:496:49 - for us so God’s goodness overflows with
6:536:53 - love providing Grace for sinful man
6:566:56 - though evil says a loving God can’t
6:586:58 - condemn he did condemn his son that we
7:007:00 - might live redeeming Us in love with the
7:037:03 - blood of Christ God’s holiness overflows
7:067:06 - Injustice offering Mercy to sinful man
7:097:09 - though evil says a just God can’t
7:117:11 - forgive he did forgive us by condemning
7:137:13 - his own son making us righteous through
7:167:16 - the blood of Christ God’s faithfulness
7:187:18 - and Truth overflow in life producing
7:217:21 - peace with God for sinful man though
7:237:23 - evil says that a god of Integrity can’t
7:257:25 - restore us he did make peace between us
7:287:28 - through his son reconciling us to
7:307:30 - himself and granting us eternal life on
7:337:33 - the basis of the blood of Christ and so
7:357:35 - you’ll notice that just as before when
7:377:37 - we were going through uh all the
7:397:39 - mechanics of this in the character of
7:417:41 - God that absolutely everything here ties
7:447:44 - back to the blood of Christ um so his
7:477:47 - goodness overflowing in love Holiness
7:497:49 - overflows in Justice and faithfulness
7:517:51 - and Truth overflow in life and all of
7:537:53 - this happens um that Redemption the
7:557:55 - justification and the reconciliation all
7:587:58 - of that happens on the basis of the
8:008:00 - blood of Christ just as we have been
8:028:02 - talking about
8:068:06 - before all right so now that we’ve gone
8:098:09 - through the text representation of the
8:118:11 - summary here now we’re just going to go
8:138:13 - ahead and we’re going to try to pull it
8:148:14 - all together in the table here now
8:178:17 - you’ll note that this very much
8:198:19 - corresponds with how ichus has organized
8:218:21 - this initial part of the study talking
8:238:23 - about the essence of God and that this
8:258:25 - left column here uh organizes everything
8:288:28 - about God’s infinite nature and this
8:308:30 - right column organizes everything about
8:328:32 - his perfect character and you can see
8:348:34 - that the columns are split um into
8:378:37 - independent and applied and what we’re
8:398:39 - talking about here uh these are
8:418:41 - characteristics of God independent from
8:438:43 - creation and these are how those
8:458:45 - characteristics manifest within creation
8:488:48 - and even more specifically in regards to
8:518:51 - God’s relationship with Humanity uh here
8:538:53 - talking about his character um so the
8:568:56 - independent characteristics his
8:588:58 - spirituality his eternity and his
9:009:00 - immeasurability manifest as omnipotence
9:039:03 - omniscience and omnipresence and these
9:059:05 - things together make God completely
9:079:07 - unique uh there’s no one like him in the
9:109:10 - universe and his goodness and his
9:139:13 - Holiness and his truth manifest
9:149:14 - respectively as love Justice and life
9:179:17 - here in the universe and these things
9:199:19 - together make God Sovereign uh he holds
9:229:22 - the scepter of authority by existential
9:249:24 - Fiat he is the one to whom all honor and
9:279:27 - glory is due in the universe
9:299:29 - not just because he’s the biggest and
9:319:31 - the most powerful on account of his
9:339:33 - abilities but also because he is the
9:359:35 - creator he is the one who has the right
9:389:38 - to judge the Free Will decisions of his
9:419:41 - creatures and so all of these things
9:439:43 - together describe God’s Essence as we’ve
9:459:45 - been discussing it his infinite nature
9:479:47 - his perfect character which makes him
9:499:49 - unique and Sovereign and he is the one
9:519:51 - to whom all honor and glory is due uh
9:559:55 - kind of both dejur by his uniqueness by
9:589:58 - his his his power and his abilities and
10:0010:00 - also or sorry that was de facto by his
10:0310:03 - uniqueness and and his abilities and
10:0510:05 - also dejur on account of his status as
10:0810:08 - the Creator the one who has made us and
10:1010:10 - the one who has the actual authority to
10:1310:13 - rule over us as the moral Sovereign of
10:1610:16 - the universe so this is as I say a
10:1910:19 - summary of all that we have been talking
10:2110:21 - about here in this first section uh of
10:2310:23 - the study going over God’s Essence so in
10:2710:27 - closing us out aie do you have anything
10:2810:28 - else you want to say about anything
10:3010:30 - we’ve talked about any other points to
10:3210:32 - make to keep in mind uh before we move
10:3410:34 - on to the other things in the
10:3610:36 - study uh not really I think you’ve
10:3910:39 - covered everything quite
10:4110:41 - nicely yeah all right well with that we
10:4510:45 - will kind of wrap up this section and so
10:4710:47 - hopefully this this video here has just
10:4910:49 - been a bit of a review of all that’s
10:5110:51 - gone before maybe this is a good one to
10:5310:53 - come back to and review uh moving in the
10:5510:55 - future uh you know just kind of pulling
10:5710:57 - it all together but now we’re going to
10:5910:59 - turn our attention to the next section
11:0011:00 - in the study uh going over the doctrine
11:0311:03 - of the Trinity so that is where we will
11:0511:05 - pick up in our next lesson
Introduction - The Trinity
Video
Summary
In this lesson, we are going to be starting an examination of a new topic in our study of God: the Trinity. God existing in three persons yet with one shared essence is about as core a concept as any we have in Christianity, which is one of the reasons that heresies related to the Trinity have been among the most existential of all threats to truth in the Church. This being the case, it is very important for us to understand the ins and outs of this keystone doctrine, so that we may stand firm in the truth of the Bible and its teaching.
Timestamps
0:000:00 - Intro and outline
02:2302:23 - The core definition of the Trinity: God is One in Essence, Three in Person
09:4209:42 - Is the terminology itself important in considering the development of this doctrine?
36:3936:39 - Even at the time the Bible was written, there were already incipient challenges to the Trinity
38:3038:30 - Not being able to fully understand the Trinity this side of heaven is a human universal equally applying to all
39:3739:37 - Progressive revelation: The Trinity was veiled from believers in the Old Testament
42:1242:12 - Spelling it out a bit more
44:0344:03 - Summary and outro
Content
(Derived from https://ichthys.com/1Theo.htm)
The core definition of the Trinity: God is One in Essence, Three in Person
We will examine exactly what this statement means as we continue in our study, but suffice it to say that this idea of “one essence / three persons” (or “three persons / one essence” if you prefer that order to the phrasing instead) is the central point, and what you should always keep in mind when thinking about the Trinity. These two statements together sum up all that is important about the triune nature of God.
Is the terminology itself important in considering the development of this doctrine?
In short, no. The Trinity has always been there in the Bible, for those willing to open their eyes and ears to the truth. How later people came to label the idea is in no way related to the fact that this concept has been there in scripture from day one.
Holy, Holy, Holy, the Lord, God, the Almighty
He who was, and He who is,
and He who is coming.
No specific term for the triune nature of God occurs in the Bible. The inspired writers of the New Testament clearly felt that the existence of one God in three distinct persons, the doctrine which we now call “the Trinity”, was a relatively straight-forward concept and accessible enough (even with a cursory reading of the scripture) from passages such as the one quoted above.
To flesh out a bit more why we might make the claim that Revelation 4:8 supports the doctrine of the Trinity, consider:
- The threefold repetition of the adjective Holy (Greek: ἅγιος, hagios)
- The three titles used: κύριος ὁ θεὸς ὁ παντοκράτωρ.
- κύριος, kurios, means “Lord”
- θεός, theos, means “God”
- παντοκράτωρ, pantokrater, means “the almighty”. It is a compound noun formed from the combination of πᾶς and κράτος.
- The three aspects of God’s eternal existence: He who was (ὁ ἦν), and He who is (ὁ ὢν), and He who is to come (ὁ ἐρχόμενος). The first two are, respectively, the imperfect active and present active participles of εἰμί (Greek’s “to be” verb), and the third is a present middle participle, from ἔρχομαι.
Perhaps someone might say that it is not impossible or even particularly uncommon for multiple adjectives and titles to be applied to the same person. Fair enough. But one might also point out this verse’s structure of threefold repetition of threes would be somewhat odd unless it were intentional, right? That is, why is it that we have three groups of threes (three Holy’s, three titles, and three aspects of God’s eternality) rather than some other structure like one/four (two non-three groups), or two/one/three/one (four groups, only one of which is a group of three), and so on?
The explanation that makes the most sense is simply that John, inspired by the Holy Spirit, put things this way intentionally. And therefore it ought not be ignored. QED.
The Apostolic Fathers, the generation that followed the men who actually penned the New Testament, also felt that merely quoting scriptures was an entirely adequate way of discussing the relationship between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Not until the late second and early third centuries did the term “Trinity” itself come into general use as a way of defending (against a variety of heresies which sought to deny various aspects of the unique triune nature of God) what earlier generations of Christians had taken completely for granted based upon their common-sense approach to reading the Bible: that God the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are all God, and that at the same time they are—in what we may call a “personal” way—also distinct from each other.
God is one. God is also three. And there is no contradiction between these statements.
Even at the time the Bible was written, there were already incipient challenges to the Trinity
This is a video-only section.
Not being able to fully understand the Trinity this side of heaven is a human universal equally applying to all
This is a video-only section.
Progressive revelation: The Trinity was veiled from believers in the Old Testament
This is a video-only section.
Spelling it out a bit more
As we have said, the core definition of the Trinity is that God is one in essence, and three in person.
To put the doctrine in complete terms, the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; yet at the same time the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit, the Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.
Video/audio transcript
0:000:00 - all right so now that we have uh fully discussed the essence of God that’s what
0:050:05 - we’ve spent the last few lessons talking about we’re going to move on to this other section in uh Bible basics part
0:120:12 - one theology on ichus talking about the uh study of God and now we’re going to
0:180:18 - move into discussing the Trinity and so this is obviously an important topic for
0:230:23 - us um in fact it’s about as core a concept as any we have in Christianity and that is one of the reasons why it
0:300:30 - has kind of presented an existential threat to truth in the church um it came under attack early on in Christian
0:360:36 - history um several different uh flavors of attack you know people who would
0:420:42 - question the humanity of Christ or the deity of Christ especially in regards to the Trinity saying that Jesus Christ was
0:480:48 - just a human that he wasn’t actually god um and obviously that is a existential
0:540:54 - threat to our belief as Christians uh we believe that we are saved uh through Jesus Christ who is both full fully man
1:001:00 - and fully God and died for us on the cross to pay for our sins that is the essence of the gospel and so um attacks
1:071:07 - on the Trinity very very uh dangerous towards our understanding of the truth
1:121:12 - and so this being the case it’s important for us to kind of understand the ins and outs of this one um it’s not
1:181:18 - something maybe that we should gloss over so much uh because we need to be firm on this so that we can stand firm
1:241:24 - in the truth of the Bible and its teaching and so here in this lesson uh this is just going to be the introdu
1:291:29 - trory lesson for talking about the Trinity so we’re going to talk about the core definition of the Trinity how God
1:361:36 - is one in essence and three in person that is the the definition uh the
1:421:42 - simplest and most best way to formulate the doctrine of the Trinity then we’re going to talk about uh the terminology
1:481:48 - here and is the terminology itself important in considering the development of this Doctrine um or is it really not
1:561:56 - that relevant um so that’s a question we’ll be considering and then finally we’re going to kind of spell it out a
2:012:01 - little bit more kind of make more explicit what this statement here one in essence three in person means in terms
2:072:07 - of uh all three members of the Trinity are God yet all three members of the Trinity are not each other um and so
2:142:14 - you’ll see what I mean when we get there U but these are the introductory topics that we’re going to be talking about
2:192:19 - here as we dive into the doctrine of the
2:252:25 - Trinity so the core definition of the Trinity as we said is that God is one in
2:312:31 - essence and three in person and so you can’t leave off either one of those statements when you formulate the
2:372:37 - Trinity otherwise you run into heresy and so we’re going to be examining exactly what the statement means as we
2:432:43 - continue in the study but suffice it to say that this idea of one Essence and three persons or three persons and one
2:492:49 - Essence if you prefer to order it that way this is the central point and what you should always keep in mind when
2:542:54 - thinking about the Trinity these two statements together sum up all that is important about the Triune nature of God
3:023:02 - and so uh in talking about this in how we formulate it this is where we always
3:073:07 - want to start when we talk about the Trinity and I will say that obviously we
3:123:12 - could jump off from here and get into all sorts of discussions but just because we’re introducing things um you
3:193:19 - know any questions that come up um kind of my thought for what we talk about here is uh just maybe people have a hard
3:263:26 - time understanding like what this means and if we get too off in the weeds I’ll
3:313:31 - kind of pull us back and and just be like you know we have plenty more lessons in the study of the Trinity to cover what it means and so we don’t want
3:383:38 - to load everything up front here but Audi do you have initial thoughts on just this presentation of how we talk
3:443:44 - about it uh this simple definition uh that ichus presents as the starting point for discussing the doctrine I
3:513:51 - think that um the reason that uh that that
3:573:57 - statement is used is that it’s really very hard to describe what the Trinity is it’s it’s really hard even when you
4:054:05 - have a certain degree of understanding of it discussing it is very tough um
4:124:12 - because we’re talking about one God and we’re talking about three persons in in in our experience of uh of
4:204:20 - life as human beings it’s very hard to to to conceive of something of that sort
4:274:27 - it’s not in our experience at all so so that use of one Essence and three person
4:334:33 - is is a sort of Genius it’s a way of saying we’re still talking about one
4:394:39 - thing even when we’re talking about three persons um but if you don’t use
4:464:46 - that terminology in my experience when you try to explain it in any other way you keep running into all sorts of difficulties you end up trying to
4:544:54 - explain that you’re not talking about three gods or you try to explain that you’re not talking about one person you
4:594:59 - know um I’ve tried to make the analogy for example that there are if you were
5:055:05 - to compare it to being human beings You’ say that um well not just human beings but dogs anything that has a particular
5:135:13 - nature you’d say well all three persons have this same nature but the trouble
5:205:20 - with saying that is well they each have their own copy of that nature so to
5:265:26 - speak just like um I’m human Ste is human Lisa is human Abby is human these
5:335:33 - are all human beings right and we share
5:395:39 - Humanity it’s something we have in common but I have my Humanity Stephen
5:445:44 - has his humanity and Abby has high humanity and Lisa has her humanity and
5:505:50 - JD has his humanity and so on and so forth so when you when you look at it that way
5:575:57 - you see it doesn’t quite describe describe the Trinity because when it comes to the Trinity they all have the
6:036:03 - same Essence they don’t have similar Essence in that what the father has is
6:086:08 - similar to what the son has which is similar to what the spirit has it’s that they all have the same thing they have
6:156:15 - one thing that they share in common so in the end it just makes it’s easiest
6:226:22 - and and um probably most accurate to say that they have one essence even though
6:296:29 - they’re three person so that’s uh I I I think it’s it’s really the the only way
6:366:36 - to describe it without ending up in some really tough places sure and I think the
6:416:41 - way that ikas phrases it um I I actually kind of reward it a little bit just because of how I structure the slides
6:466:46 - but AAS calls it the simplest and best way to describe it um and I think that’s really getting to the heart of this of
6:536:53 - if you start here then it’s a matter of clarifying what exactly we mean by this
6:586:58 - right um that’s that’s a good place to start right not so much that that people are off in the weeds because if you
7:057:05 - start to try to explain it by analogy perhaps not that ichus does present several analogies as we’ll see so for
7:117:11 - example visible light the light spectrum right it’s all light yet it’s of different wavelengths for example um if
7:187:18 - you start with the analogies it just it’s harder to be there because then you have to explain
7:247:24 - all these things how it’s not really quite the same it’s just an analogy and so on and so forth and so agree um in
7:307:30 - terms of how we formulate this the reason why we start here um even though usually it will require some explanation
7:367:36 - because for example what does Essence mean exactly U we’ll get into that as we as we continue going on Lesson by lesson
7:437:43 - in our study of the Trinity here but the reason why we start with this formulation um and and we’ll get a
7:487:48 - little bit more to the end about another way to restate this right that uh sort of more full accounting of what this
7:557:55 - statement translates to in terms of logic but why we start here is just because it’s the best way for us to dive
8:008:00 - into this topic which as AI said is just kind of hard to explain um it’s just kind of a fact that we have to deal with
8:078:07 - here that it’s hard for us as humans to wrap our heads around this uh one particular thing maybe you might have
8:138:13 - more thoughts on this too is just understanding the unity that’s involved in this is not something that humans
8:208:20 - have a direct analog to in our experience and so um we we we can
8:258:25 - understand you know being united like as a team perhaps is humans or you know we’re in agreement as a group but it’s
8:328:32 - not the unity that you know the the members of the Trinity have it’s of a
8:388:38 - completely different nature than that and that’s why the one Essence bit is important here because uh if you don’t
8:448:44 - somehow convey that uh the unity uh you know the the sharedness if you will that
8:528:52 - the Trinity members possess then you end up with basically hand waving your way of well we have three people who are
8:598:59 - really somehow one person and then you become unconvincing um and so uh Unity is a big big part of what we need to
9:069:06 - focus on when we explain what the Trinity is and how uh the three members of the godhead function together is that
9:139:13 - they have a Unity completely unlike anything that we can conceptualize as humans at least Unity between human
9:199:19 - beings simply because they are all God um so I I don’t know if you want to rip
9:269:26 - on any of that as I say we’ll get into all of this much more as we explain uh in the coming lessons exactly what the
9:329:32 - Trinity is and what it is not um but anything more to say or shall we move on to the next Point yeah we can move on
9:409:40 - yeah okay great so now kind of having covered this
9:479:47 - initial definition of the Trinity that is that God is one in essence but three in person we’re going to be talking
9:549:54 - about the terminology here and kind of asking the question if the terminology itself is important when we uh consider
10:0110:01 - the development of this Doctrine and what we mean by that is sort of how people talk about it um if it was
10:0610:06 - formalized to kind of help argue against various heresies in the early church well what does that mean in regards to
10:1310:13 - uh whether the doctrine existed in scripture before that you know it didn’t just come to exist when we made a label
10:2010:20 - for it right um it existed before that and that’s going to kind of be what we emphasize here and so in answering this
10:2710:27 - question uh is the terminy itself important in considering the development of the doctrine uh the general answer to
10:3310:33 - that question is no uh because the Trinity has always been there in the Bible for those who are willing to open
10:3810:38 - their eyes and ears to the truth um the Bible writes of this you might think um on the road to emus uh you know when
10:4610:46 - Jesus explains uh to those he was walking with you know how the Old Testament spoke of him um a very
10:5110:51 - fascinating conversation that we kind of wish we had right what passages exactly did Jesus use uh to talk about about
10:5910:59 - himself right as displayed in the Old Testament you know we we might think maybe Isaiah 53 the suffering servant
11:0511:05 - that’s a possibility um other plenty of there’s plenty of other references in
11:1011:10 - the Old Testament uh that are christological in nature that’s the jargony way to say they point to Jesus
11:1611:16 - Christ um and specifically Jesus Christ as God um but in any case how later
11:2211:22 - people came to label the idea of the Trinity kind of isn’t really related to
11:2811:28 - the fact that the concept of the Trinity has been there in scripture from day one in fact not just in the New Testament
11:3411:34 - it’s been there even in the Old Testament from day one and so that’s kind of the important point for us to
11:3911:39 - recognize here is that the Trinity is it’s an aspect of God’s existence right we talked about how God is existence God
11:4511:45 - exists external to SpaceTime uh so he exists Before Time so to speak and God
11:5011:50 - has always been Triune in nature so the Trinity is inherent to God it is in fact
11:5511:55 - in no way conditional upon creation and in understanding that the fact that
12:0112:01 - people kind of developed terminology to talk about it more doesn’t mean that no one believed in the Trinity before they
12:0712:07 - started using these words um and you might kind of laugh and say well why are we even bothering to say that that’s
12:1212:12 - kind of common sense right but you know there is this idea and I I couldn’t tell you why it seems like nonsense to me but
12:1912:19 - it it’s there in um biblical studies Academia a bit um people talk about the development of doctrine that may be how
12:2612:26 - they phrase it but the development of the Trinity like it just seems to me
12:3212:32 - very silly and ich this is very clear um you’ll see in the formulation so this paragraph up here this was me but this
12:3712:37 - is uh ichus specifically I’ll actually read this now it says uh that no specific term for the Triune nature of
12:4412:44 - God exists in the Bible and this is where Dr Lugo kind of throws down his Gauntlet and says you know this is what
12:5012:50 - we need to believe regardless of what other people say he says the inspired writers of the New Testament clearly
12:5512:55 - felt that the existence of one God in three distinct persons the doctrine which we now call the Trinity was a
13:0113:01 - relatively straightforward concept and accessible enough even with a cursory reading of the scripture from passages
13:0713:07 - such as the one quoted above and then he quotes Revelation 4:8 which we’ll get to in a second but the point is is that
13:1413:14 - it’s there in the Bible you know and so the fact that some people started talking about it in a certain way in the
13:1913:19 - late second and early 3 Century doesn’t mean that no one before that actually believed in the Trinity it’s complete
13:2513:25 - nonsense um but for whatever reason we actually have to make this because some people apparently think that uh quote
13:3213:32 - unquote Doctrine was developed and I guess that people before that didn’t properly understand the Trinity or something like that which I just think
13:3813:38 - is complete nonsense um so that’s why we’re spending the time here to kind of go over this point and so Dr lugan Bill
13:4513:45 - uses uh this verse here in Revelation chapter 4:8 so I’ll go ahead and read it and then on the next slide we’re going
13:5113:51 - to kind of go over well if we say this as a kind of evidence be it direct or
13:5613:56 - indirect for the Trinity well kind of how does that work right I had this question when I first saw the verse and
14:0114:01 - that Dr luging was using it as okay so if we’re using this verse um as one of those passages in the Bible uh that
14:0814:08 - makes the Trinity a straightforward and accessible concept as we’ve been just arguing well how does it do that so the
14:1414:14 - verse here uh Revelation chapter 4:8 says this holy holy holy the Lord God
14:2214:22 - the almighty he who was and he who is and he who is coming so we’re going to
14:2714:27 - split this down break it down to kind of go into a bit more detail how this verse
14:3214:32 - which maybe doesn’t look on the face of it to have all that much relationship to the Trinity how does this support uh
14:3914:39 - kind of a trinitarian understanding of God and so to flush all this out a bit more um I don’t want to get too bogged
14:4514:45 - down in the Greek here but you know I just I included the Greek words uh just for people who know it who might be
14:5014:50 - interested um the kind of the the core reason why we say this verse supports
14:5614:56 - the Trinity and gives us that kind kind of the feeling of the trium nature of God is that in this verse we have we
15:0315:03 - have three sets of Threes right so you know the Trinity obviously composed of three people but we have a three-fold
15:1015:10 - repetition first off of the adjective holy in Greek so in Greek that’s the word hagios um we have a three-fold
15:1715:17 - repetition of the adjective holy so rather than just holy we have holy holy holy the Lord God the almighty now of
15:2415:24 - course repetition uh is used across languages for emphasis but we have three
15:3015:30 - holies here uh next we have three titles used um so cuos Theos and Ponto right
15:3815:38 - those are the Greek words cuos is the normal word for Lord Theos of course means God and this is the more
15:4415:44 - interesting one Ponto is literally translates as the Almighty we kind of have an English word that translate this
15:5115:51 - um but this is made from the Greek word for all and the Greek word for power so the all powerful one the almighty um
15:5915:59 - three titles right so we said uh three repetitions of the adjective holy three titles here and then after that we have
16:0616:06 - the three aspects of God’s Eternal existence right he who was this is the imperfect participle he who is the
16:1316:13 - present participle and then he who is to come this one’s a middle participle so
16:1816:18 - most people probably won’t be that interested in this but the point is you know God existed in the past he exists
16:2316:23 - now and he is to exist in the future past present and future three aspects of Eternal existence so you’ll notice here
16:3116:31 - we have three sets of thre and so someone kind of might say well it’s not impossible or even particularly uncommon
16:3816:38 - for multiple adjectives and titles to be applied to the same person right so you might think of kings and Emperors
16:4316:43 - throughout history were given epithets or if you’re familiar with uh like the
16:4916:49 - Greek epics for example like Homer various heroes in The Iliad were given
16:5416:54 - epithets you know that it’s a title um so different people can have multiple titles multiple adjectives appli to them and
17:0017:00 - that doesn’t like break grammatical rules or anything so that’s fair enough point but you might also point out here
17:0617:06 - that this versus structure of three-fold repetition of Threes would be somewhat
17:1117:11 - odd unless it were intentional so why would we have three sets of Threes in this verse rather than for example uh
17:1917:19 - you know two sets of things that weren’t threes so right what what what if we had like one adjective and four titles or
17:2717:27 - what if we had two adjectives one title the three aspects of God’s existence and then one other thing right so having
17:3417:34 - something that’s like 2131 rather than 3 three three so four groups only one of which is a group of
17:4017:40 - three and so on you know you can come up with other examples here but the very fact that we have three sets of Threes
17:4617:46 - in this verse it just means that the explanation that makes the most sense is simply that John inspired by the Holy
17:5217:52 - Spirit put things this way intentionally and therefore we ought not to ignore it uh QED that’s how the general argument
17:5917:59 - here goes is that why would this verse be structured uh in this very specific way with three sets of Threes all of
18:0618:06 - which Echo the three-fold nature of God if we’re not supposed to read something into it um so uh hopefully that’s a
18:1318:13 - little bit helpful in understanding why this verse here in Revelation chap 4:8 kind of helps point us to the idea of
18:1918:19 - the Trinity Now by no means is this the verse on which the doctrine of the Trinity Rises and Falls this is just an
18:2518:25 - example of where we get it in scripture there are plenty of other verses uh that are relevant in this discussion many of
18:3218:32 - which we will get to as we continue studying this topic but I just to give you an example of Trinity in the Bible
18:3818:38 - well this is one place where we can look as a passage that references it so kind of to turn our attention here back to uh
18:4618:46 - you know the usage of terminology in the early church and what we should make of that uh so the apostolic fathers which
18:5218:52 - is the generation that followed the men who actually Penn the New Testament so the apostles the apostolic fathers
18:5818:58 - that’s what they’re called um also felt that merely quoting scriptures was an entirely adequate way of discussing the
19:0419:04 - relationship between the father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and so to translate translate that into more plain
19:0919:09 - English they didn’t get very doctrinal and start building up all these systems and and argumentation about all this
19:1619:16 - because they were just like yeah the Bible you know the Bible talks about the father and the Bible talks about the Son and the Bible talks about the Holy
19:2219:22 - Spirit and they just kind of shrugged and they didn’t make a big deal out of it and so it’s not until the late second and early thirr centuries that the term
19:2819:28 - Trinity came into General use as a way of Defending against a variety of heresies which sought to deny various
19:3419:34 - aspects of what we now call the Trinity uh again one of the most prominent ones being that Jesus Christ wasn’t actually
19:4119:41 - god um well they kind of developed this as a way to talk about these things to
19:4619:46 - defend against people who were saying that things were not so um so they they
19:5119:51 - came into all of this uh for what early Generations had taken completely for granted based upon their common approach
19:5819:58 - to reading the Bible well now they kind of developed a system to talk about these things but as I emphasized from
20:0420:04 - the beginning here that doesn’t mean that people before this point didn’t believe in the Trinity or didn’t
20:1020:10 - understand the Trinity this just came about in a specific time and place in human history as a result largely uh to
20:1620:16 - help argue against various heresies that were challenging aspects of the Trinity and so that is uh what we are talking
20:2320:23 - about here this system came into place to make clear the fact that God the
20:2920:29 - Father the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are all actually God while at the same time uh in what we might
20:3420:34 - call a personal way they’re all distinct from each other right that is the Trinity um and the challenge of this and
20:4020:40 - also of course why there have been so many challenges to this is because in saying this we are saying that God is
20:4620:46 - one and yet God is also three and that there’s no contradiction between these statements but people always want to see
20:5120:51 - a contradiction there and that’s why the heresies arose and that’s why people started kind of um that’s right way to
20:5820:58 - put this uh making a system in order to debate these matters to defend the
21:0421:04 - doctrine against challenges to it and it got a little bit more formalized but that doesn’t mean that even before that
21:0921:09 - point that people weren’t talking about it or believing in it and things like that so that was introduction here to
21:1721:17 - this idea of terminology as it relates to the development of the doctrine of the Trinity so Audie do you have initial
21:2321:23 - thoughts about what we’ve been talking about here in this section um yeah I I
21:2821:28 - think just to strengthen what you already said that um Trinity is a is a
21:3421:34 - word that was invented to capture what was actually in the Bible matter of fact
21:4021:40 - is um it it it seems as if the Bible is less interested in telling you about the
21:4921:49 - Trinity and More in just telling you you know about the persons that it’s talking
21:5521:55 - about so it just starts talking about Jesus Christ Christ and just out of the blue starts talking about him as God
22:0222:02 - same thing with the father same thing with the Holy Spirit it doesn’t seem to um be particularly concerned about the
22:0922:09 - fact that someone reading that might go wait wait what’s happening the Bible just takes for
22:1522:15 - granted that well Jesus is God the father is God the holy spirit is God
22:2222:22 - there is one God get with the program you know so but people started to make
22:2822:28 - an issue of that and that’s why just like you said they the word was eventually invented just to make sure
22:3522:35 - that we could talk about these things and make clear what we are saying um we could also conceive of it as a try Unity
22:4322:43 - that’s a the perfect Unity of three persons that the unity so perfect and so
22:5122:51 - complete that it means that they are one God they’re not three Gods they’re in perfect unity in everything that really
22:5722:57 - counts but they are three three separate individuals so um uh the the term itself
23:0323:03 - the word itself is a word of convenience the Bible presents the whole thing as a
23:1023:10 - matter of fact and does not really go into how and why and all of that just
23:1723:17 - tells you well um like uh in Zechariah I
23:2323:23 - believe chapter 12 where it said um uh they will look upon me whom they have
23:2923:29 - pierced and you know the Lord God said to me the Lord God has sent me and so on
23:3723:37 - and so forth you know it’s like it just says it like it’s the most natural thing in the world why does it confuse you you
23:4523:45 - know so but the term itself is just for convenience yeah yeah I mean and I think
23:5123:51 - to bounce off what you said a bit this is the problem that people have when they kind of approach the Bible with a
23:5723:57 - precon notion of what it ought to say right so if you are and your faith is
24:0224:02 - being attacked by this very convinced guy over here who says you’re wrong and you wish you could just find ammunition
24:0924:09 - that directly proved him wrong in the Bible you might throw up your hands and say well why didn’t the Bible you know
24:1424:14 - phrase you know very systematic uh you know basically a systematic study of the nature of God in the Trinity so that
24:2124:21 - like with Point 1 B2 I might prove my interlocutor wrong well that’s just not
24:2824:28 - the purpose of the Bible right and I mean we don’t want to get too hand waving talking about quote unquote the purpose of the Bible right but
24:3424:34 - essentially God gives us everything we need to know but there’s a reason why he doesn’t give us more you know and some
24:4024:40 - of that as the gospels make clear is that uh we are supposed to as Christians exercise our free will to want to dig if
24:4724:47 - we do not dig to understand if we do not try we do not search we do not find
24:5224:52 - teachers who can help explain things to us we will not grow part of this whole process of the reason why we have
24:5824:58 - imperfect information so to speak is because it gives us the opportunity to choose um and so uh in this particular
25:0625:06 - instance we would say that the Bible it’s not that the Bible doesn’t support the Trinity it’s that people who want to
25:1425:14 - deny Christianity on account of the Trinity specifically are given enough room to do so right um and anyone who
25:2225:22 - cares enough to actually read the Bible with an open mind and think and ask questions will come to the understanding
25:2825:28 - that the Trinity is true and that the Bible teaches it and that it’s not like the Bible is vague or nebulous about it
25:3425:34 - and you know we’ll go over some of the passages that maybe we’re just waving our hand now but we will be more convincing about this I promise but the
25:4025:40 - whole point is is that the Bible is not systematic in its its outlining of these things right maybe perhaps not how an
25:4725:47 - apologist would desire to May to go use his ammunition against people arguing against his position right and so we
25:5325:53 - need to not read in our preconceived notions of what the Bible ought to say you know another example that comes
25:5825:58 - directly to mind here is people want the Bible to talk about uh you know the creation of the universe as if it’s a
26:0426:04 - science textbook right um and For Better or Worse a common argument trotted out
26:1026:10 - in defense of that was that the Bible is you know it’s not a science textbook which is true but we don’t need to be
26:1726:17 - like ashamed or feel dirty when we say that because the Bible is everything that God saw fit to give to us and if he
26:2326:23 - thought we needed more information he would have given it to us so uh you know just basically like AI said and and like
26:3026:30 - the early people said we can just shrug and be like well the Bible says this and the Bible says this and the Bible says this and and you know basically why are
26:3726:37 - you getting so upset about uh you know you set up this system of Doctrine and you’re like well I see points a and
26:4326:43 - points B and point C this doesn’t mean that we can’t be systematic and rigorous when we study things but we just need to
26:4826:48 - understand what the purpose of the text that has been given us is right we need to study it in the in the manner and the
26:5526:55 - way in which God intends for us to use it um am I being too vague AI do you want to bounce off anything I’m saying
27:0127:01 - or you think the point is sufficient into itself I I think it is I think it is
27:0927:09 - okay great well I don’t have too much more to say here um I do think this is an important point it’s why Dr lugan
27:1527:15 - bille I mean I made me chuckle a bit when I was reading it you know the strongness that he comes you know about the here let me some specific words here
27:2327:23 - right the straightforward and accessible nature of this Doctrine right because
27:2827:28 - the reason why this makes me chuckle is because I can think of people specifically atheists or agnostics who
27:3427:34 - would think that these statements are not true right that the Bible is not clear on this matter or at least it
27:4027:40 - could be a whole lot more clear and therefore uh they find fault with God on account of this but this is one of those
27:4727:47 - things where people who look with eyes of Faith it’s there you know um uh in in
27:5327:53 - the same way that all of these other beliefs that we carry as Christians maybe even beliefs that kind of cut against the common grain well God gives
28:0128:01 - us minds and he empowers us with his holy spirit to interpret his truth and if we believe we will see the things
28:0828:08 - that are behind uh the material things in this world right we’ll see the spiritual realities behind them um and
28:1628:16 - so in our particular example here all we’re saying is that the Trinity is in the Bible and that is sufficient unto
28:2228:22 - itself um if people don’t like that if they if they say that we’re just a that
28:2828:28 - and that uh I don’t know that we need to somehow prove it it’s kind of their problem um and and you know there it’s
28:3428:34 - not to say that people who are gifted in apologetics cannot engage on this matter or that nothing more could be said or
28:4028:40 - that we can’t even defend it from critics right because obviously our forbears uh you know one of the points we made was that they they came up with
28:4628:46 - this terminology uh and ways of outlining and expressing the doctrine and our belief and and I mean not that
28:5328:53 - they were perfect or anything but this isn’t something that we need to censure them for for right we’re defending the
28:5828:58 - truth we’re standing up for the truth that’s a good thing however between us as Christians when we’re when we’re
29:0429:04 - trying to explain this to other believers the point is is that the Bible talks about it it’s sufficient if you
29:1029:10 - look for it and with eyes of Faith understanding that this is something that we need to believe about God it’s
29:1729:17 - there you know you don’t have to go into mental gymnastic to do it but if you try to convince someone who’s skeptical who
29:2329:23 - is set not to believe you’re probably never going to convince them no matter what verses you show right
29:2929:29 - um all right so anything more to say on this topic before we move on to the next
29:3529:35 - you’re quite right I I don’t think that um there is uh much in the way of like I
29:4229:42 - I said before I I I think that it’s very deliberate on the part of the Bible that
29:4729:47 - it just presents a lot of these things as statements of fact it’s more like
29:5329:53 - um why are you confused it’s this it’s that it’s that end of story you know just take it take
30:0030:00 - it as it is so if anyone needs to be persuaded that the Trinity is a thing
30:0630:06 - that it is what the Bible teaches well let’s let’s just say you will never succeed at actually convincing them of
30:1330:13 - it it’s one of those things the Bible says that we will know when we um uh
30:2030:20 - when when we put off this body when we are we eventually come to be with the Lord because at that time we will have
30:2830:28 - faculties that are better able to make sense of um spiritual realities of this
30:3530:35 - sort but it’s sufficient to say he is God he is not a man he is not a creature
30:4230:42 - he’s not like the universe he made so we should not expect him to be like the
30:4830:48 - universe that we made we already talked about um the matter of his existence the
30:5430:54 - fact that the way that God exists is different than the way way that the Universe exists we have no concept of
31:0031:00 - how something could possibly self- exist it’s not in our experience things don’t
31:0531:05 - just exist we we Trace things to their beginning and then we say before they
31:1331:13 - came to exist something happened to bring them to exist we can’t make sense of God like that likewise we cannot
31:2031:20 - really make sense of how he is in the composition of his presence so to speak
31:2831:28 - we know that Jesus is God the holy spirit is God the father is God how do
31:3431:34 - we know Bible says it we also know that the father is not
31:4031:40 - Jesus that Jesus is not the Holy Spirit and that there is only one God we know that because the Bible says that we call
31:4731:47 - it the Trinity because it’s a big thing to it’s a mouthful if you want to you know
31:5431:54 - describe the whole thing what we just said now is something you would want to capture in um a few syllables to be able
32:0332:03 - to use it when you have to speak of it and that’s why Trinity as a word exists
32:0832:08 - so if people are not persuaded by that and I’ve had so many debates so many debates with atheists with agnostics
32:1632:16 - with even fellow Believers about this that I’ve just realized it’s it’s really pointless to debate it because the
32:2132:21 - statements are just obvious right on the bare face of it I I
32:2732:27 - I think one of the ones that I just pointed out is that one was pretty mind-blowing when I when I eventually
32:3232:32 - saw it where um Zariah was saying that the Lord God said to him that the Lord
32:3832:38 - God had sent him and you know so it was a pretty interesting thing to say and
32:4532:45 - there are people I think the the biggest experience of this that I had in my life
32:5132:51 - was with um the Jehovah’s Witnesses who are adamant about the fact that Jesus is
32:5732:57 - not God and they hate the very concept of the Trinity they believe that it’s a idea that was imported into Christianity
33:0533:05 - so um when when you talk with such people you come to realize it’s like
33:1133:11 - trying to convince an atheist that God exists my experience of such a thing is
33:1633:16 - that it’s too obvious to argue and when this is one of the the things I have
33:2333:23 - problems with the oldtimers for I mean the so-called Church fathers and church
33:3033:30 - doctors and whatnot I have this issue with them that because they were trying to make sense of the obvious they ended
33:3833:38 - up inventing philosophies that were actually alien to the Bible just to make
33:4433:44 - sense of something the Bible says it is sufficient that the Bible said it if the person is not willing to accept the
33:5133:51 - testimony of the Bible well what more can we say we have nothing more to say at that point there are doctrines in the
33:5733:57 - Bible that require some work and that where you can say this is how and this is why but in the scriptures we don’t
34:0434:04 - have the how and the why um uh the father is not Jesus and Jesus is not the
34:1034:10 - Holy Spirit and and the three are individually God and yet there is one
34:1634:16 - God we we don’t know how that is we don’t really know why that is but we we do know that it is because the Bible
34:2434:24 - says that it is and I think that’s what we should be very satisfied within every conversation we have with people yep I
34:3134:31 - mean I will say specifically if people are unfamiliar with kind of the debates that Audi reference shorthand there’s
34:3734:37 - this concept of Eternal beginning you may have heard this it’s even in the Nan Creed right it gets formalized people
34:4434:44 - say this I don’t think many people think about it but there’s also this idea that the spirit proceeds from the father and
34:4934:49 - the son um you’ll hear this this come up from the mouths especially of perhaps
34:5434:54 - Catholic folks or Orthodox folks where they try to explain the Trinity a lot more than what’s really there in the
35:0035:00 - text right um that’s some of what we’re getting at here um and these systems of
35:0535:05 - philosophy where you’re you’re trying to you’re trying to explain something that human beings can’t explain right this is
35:1235:12 - a very very important concept I don’t want us to get super off topic but very important concept for us as Christians
35:1835:18 - is basically learning when we need to like stop pushing on something and demanding an explanation from God right
35:2535:25 - um this is one of those areas in fact I will say that many of the areas that we need to be kind of
35:5535:55 - gunshy31 but then we will see clearly Right This Side of Heaven we have no
36:0036:00 - chance of understanding certain things now that doesn’t mean we should throw up our hands in cases where we really can
36:0736:07 - explain but we just need to be humble enough to say well the Bible said it in
36:1236:12 - this case and I’m gonna stick with that even if the system you’ve invented you know it’s it’s a
36:1936:19 - self-rationalizing
36:2636:26 - I think that’s where we’ll cut this section and and the next we will pick up just kind of fleshing out a little bit
36:3336:33 - more what that statement means and then that’s where we will close out uh this week here our introduction of the
36:3936:39 - concept of the Trinity so right before we move on to the next bit we actually paused had a couple good good points
36:4536:45 - brought up uh uh good things discussed so uh one thing to start with initially
36:5036:50 - is just that um even in the Bible the time that uh the apostles Paul and John
36:5736:57 - were writing parts of the New Testament we actually already had some of these challenges cropping up so you got to be
37:0237:02 - careful exactly which corners of scholarship you lean into and so on but uh the Apostle John was writing about
37:1037:10 - the Incarnation of Christ and emphasizing how Jesus Christ was actually a human being and it might seem
37:1537:15 - kind of weird to us especially when we’re talking about the Trinity but this is combating an early form of what is
37:2037:20 - typically called gnosticism this idea that Jesus was just somehow spiritual or something like that um and of course
37:2737:27 - Paul is uh he does reason with people various places in his Epistles but he too is arguing against incipient
37:3337:33 - challenges to a proper understanding of God and the thing to keep in mind in all
37:3837:38 - this so for example when Paul upgrades the Corinthians and uh First Corinthians and so on is that he really got down on
37:4537:45 - them for kind of their over intellectualization uh you know I say that that’s a really big word in my intellectual on their over
37:5237:52 - intellectualization of certain aspects of of uh the beliefs that we have as Christians and so um you know if they
37:5937:59 - try to make things conform to platonism neoplatonism Aristotelian logic you know
38:0438:04 - are are they getting wrapped up in all of this uh intellectual sounding mumbo jumbo rather than understanding what has
38:1238:12 - been passed down to us in the Bible um and so already at that point we kind of
38:1738:17 - run into this idea that um it’s not that you know our understanding of the Trinity for example is illogical is
38:2438:24 - simply that we can only go up to a certain point and because of that we
38:2938:29 - just need to acknowledge our own limits as human beings and these limits another Point brought up during discussion these
38:3438:34 - limits apply to all human beings it’s not like uh it is allowable for certain
38:4038:40 - people who might consider themselves wise teachers or whatever to be like ah well you don’t really understand the
38:4538:45 - Trinity just because you’re not wise enough unwashed masses of Believers that’s not how it works um all of us as
38:5338:53 - human beings are limited in our perspective uh simply because we are bound by space and time and we don’t
39:0039:00 - truly understand what all this means in the in the same way that we will in eternity when things are clear for us um
39:0539:05 - but that applies to everybody and we just need to acknowledge uh in humility that we will only understand up to a
39:1139:11 - certain point and again this doesn’t mean that this Doctrine is illogical it just means it’s super logical it exceeds
39:1939:19 - the bounds of what we can know um and so those are just a couple a couple points to bring up here in closing out this
39:2639:26 - discussion the early doctrine of the Trinity maybe how it was discussed so even at the time
39:3139:31 - of the the Bible was being written there were already kind of incipient challenges to proper understanding of
39:3839:38 - God and what he meant um I guess one other thing I kind of did this out of order relative to our discussion but we
39:4339:43 - kind of talked about uh Believers in the Old Testament as well how some of these things um even though they’re there in
39:4939:49 - the Old Testament you know we we argued that that these things have always been there in the Bible uh this was one of
39:5439:54 - those things that was arguably kind of veiled so Judaism cons always considered
40:0040:00 - to this day even to be a monotheistic religion a one God not Triune God just one God period um but people who read
40:0840:08 - the new the Old Testament honestly AI brought up this example in Zechariah there’s also the Messianic Psalm Audi
40:1440:14 - also brought this up in our discussion uh well I guess off the recording but a Messianic Psalm where uh David’s saying
40:2040:20 - and uh the Lord said to my Lord right what does that even mean if it’s not trinitarian right um there would have
40:2740:27 - been people in the Old Testament who were looking at the text and were wondering what does the say about God
40:3340:33 - you know is there more here um but it was actually hidden from them um the so-called Divine Mysteries right this
40:3940:39 - one of the benefits we have living in the time that we do is that those things which were once veiled are no longer
40:4540:45 - veiled um and all this to say we don’t necessarily get to look down our noses
40:5040:50 - at uh such great Believers as Abraham and David and uh you know maybe Isaac and Jacob and so on um because oh well
40:5840:58 - they didn’t understand the Trinity so maybe I’m such a great person now or whatever is because they lived in this time in which they had the same defining
41:0641:06 - faith that we have as Christians in their place and time and God had not yet unveiled all of these things uh perhaps
41:1341:13 - even to the angels there’s this verse in First Peter that talks about how even the angels want to look into these things and so part of that obviously is
41:1941:19 - the Incarnation of Jesus Christ and his death to redeem us on the cross but uh you know aspects of God nature and how
41:2641:26 - it interacts with creation all of this we don’t know exactly but obviously for Old Testament Believers the fact that
41:3241:32 - maybe there was a progressive revelation that’s the jargony theological term for this stuff that there was progressive
41:3941:39 - revelation here as it came to manifes in God’s nature and character and the fact
41:4441:44 - that he’s a Triune God doesn’t mean that the Old Testament Believers didn’t believe so uh that is some of what we
41:5241:52 - discussed here uh to conclude this section good thoughts here and now we’re going to turn kind of to wrapping up uh
41:5941:59 - this particular introduction to the doctrine of the Trinity before we jump into in future lessons uh some of the
42:0442:04 - specifics of it or we’re just going to go ahead and restate the doctrine kind of with a little bit more specificity
42:0942:09 - and that’s what we’re going to do in the next bit
42:1442:14 - here so just one last thing to talk about here in our introduction to the topic of the Trinity we’ve said that the
42:2142:21 - core definition of the Trinity is that God is one in essence yet three in person
42:2642:26 - and so I kind of said that we’ we’d kind of wind our way back to this and aie actually he said this almost word for
42:3342:33 - word uh in one of the things that he was talking about earlier in regards to the middle portion but to kind of put this
42:3942:39 - in complete terms when we say that God is one in essence and three in person what that actually means is that the
42:4642:46 - father is God the son is God and the Holy Spirit is God yet at the same time the father is not the son or the Holy
42:5242:52 - Spirit the son is not the father of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is not the father the sun um so um I tell you
42:5942:59 - what actually let me go find this I will we’ll we’ll we’ll get to this picture later on um so I’m going to go find the
43:0643:06 - uh section in the study here on ichus where we have the picture of the Trinity
43:1143:11 - um I know it’s somewhere here I mean like we’ll get to it some point here right this is exactly what we’re saying
43:1843:18 - um that the father of the Son and the Holy Spirit are all God but they are not each other that is what three persons
43:2443:24 - one Essence essentially needs um so that is all there is to it this introduction
43:3143:31 - of the doctrine that is what we say we believe when we say that God is one in essence and three in person so Audi any
43:3643:36 - clarifications to make here um anything else to say about what it is we say we believe um and like I said we’ll get
43:4243:42 - into all the specifics of this um as we move forward in the lessons but yeah I don’t think I have anything
43:4943:49 - further to see it’s okay great so that is our introduction here um introduction
43:5543:55 - to the the doctrine of the Trinity and we will be going through um more specifics as we move on in the further
44:0144:01 - lessons in this study here so these are the things that we
44:0844:08 - covered here in our introduction to the doctrine of the Trinity uh first we talked about the core definition of the
44:1444:14 - Trinity that God is one in essence and three in person uh then we spent some time talking about uh the terminology
44:2144:21 - itself how the Bible itself speaks to the Trinity and even before people came
44:2644:26 - up with some of the terminology that we now employ um people believed this and they believed it because it’s Common
44:3244:32 - Sense from the Bible because the Bible says things like Jesus Is God despite
44:3744:37 - what groups like the Jehovah’s Witnesses might say you know it’s what it’s what John chapter 1 says and so because of
44:4344:43 - this um we have these statements the scripture just presents as fact it doesn’t it doesn’t try to convince us of
44:4944:49 - them or logic um logic them into something we ought to believe it just asserts them it just States them and so
44:5444:54 - because of that people even before uh some of the so-called trinitarian
45:0045:00 - controversies happened people believe the Trinity because that’s what the Bible teaches um and that is not
45:0545:05 - entirely an uncont uncontroversial position for us to take but it is the position we should take because it’s in
45:1145:11 - the Bible is what the Bible says it’s what people believed because the Bible clearly states it and so we’ll go into
45:1745:17 - more of those places where the Bible clearly states it we did use as an example here Revelation 4:8 this verse
45:2445:24 - here saying holy holy holy the Lord God or sorry the Lord God the almighty he who was and he who is and he who is
45:3045:30 - coming this three-fold repetition of Threes that if you’re being kind of honest uh must be intentional and what
45:3845:38 - that points to us uh uh John the writer of Revelation uh you know writing under
45:4345:43 - the inspiration of the Holy Spirit included this and this is one such passage that we use that points us towards the Trinity um and then after
45:4945:49 - all of that discussion of terminology and how people kind of believe it and understand it because it’s there in the
45:5545:55 - Bible and so so we don’t need to get all worked up about uh you know did people only start believing it in the third
46:0046:00 - Century or whatever after all that we talked about um just how what this
46:0646:06 - statement of one in essence and three in person means is that uh the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are all God yet
46:1246:12 - they are separate and distinct from each other you know we’ll come back to this picture uh in the future lesson where it’s actually referenced but um the
46:1846:18 - three uh persons of the godhead the Father the Son and the spirit are all God and yet they are not each other
46:2446:24 - that’s what one in essence three in person actually means and so this is where we’re going to this is where we’re
46:2946:29 - going to stop our introductory video here and in the next videos we’ll actually be picking up uh first off by
46:3546:35 - by stating some things that the Trinity is not um so we’re going to be kind of defining what it is um by showing some
46:4246:42 - some things U uh also commonly debated uh in what we’d call historical theology
46:4846:48 - things that came up um some things that the Trinity is not and that will help us understand better what it actually is
46:5346:53 - and so that’s where we will be picking up in coming lessons here
All Members of the Trinity Are Deity
Video
Summary
In this lesson we kick off a series of discussions we will be having about what the Trinity is not, to help throw into starker relief what it actually is. This lesson’s main focus is examining the point that God is one in essence, but that does not mean that only one person of the Trinity is deity.
Timestamps
0:000:00 - Intro and outline
01:3801:38 - Our next several discussions: understanding the Trinity in terms of what it is not
03:1903:19 - Key point: God is one in essence, but that does not mean that only one person of the Trinity is deity
30:1430:14 - What does it mean for God to be Spirit, if the Holy Spirit is just one member of the Trinity?
43:4443:44 - Why wasn’t the Spirit sent to indwell believers before He actually was (i.e., only after Christ’s ascension)?
56:2956:29 - Revelation 1:4 - What is going on with the mention of seven Spirits?
01:02:4201:02:42 - What exactly does being baptized into God (becoming united with Him, as part of the body of Christ) actually mean?
01:17:2901:17:29 - The Father is God
01:27:5101:27:51 - A deeper dive into the interpretation of Ephesians 3:14-15
01:42:1701:42:17 - The Son is God
02:18:3102:18:31 - The Holy Spirit is God
02:51:5502:51:55 - Summary and outro
Content
(Derived from https://ichthys.com/1Theo.htm)
Our next several discussions: understanding the Trinity in terms of what it is not
Last lesson we gave the basic definition of the Trinity: “three in person / one in essence” or “one in essence / three in person.”
We can better understand what the Trinity is by first considering what it is not in terms of the definition given above, so that will be our focus for the next several discussions.
Key point: God is one in essence, but that does not mean that only one person of the Trinity is deity
God is three in person, and all three persons of the Trinity (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) are divine. Heresies of the past which have challenged the divinity of members of the Trinity include adoptionism (asserting that Christ is the Son of God only in the sense of adoption), the Ebionite heresy (teaching that Christ had only a human nature empowered by God’s Spirit), and Unitarianism (which asserts the uni-personality of God, denying the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit).
But the Bible teaches that all three members of the Trinity are deity. Compare: Is.63:9-14; Matt. 3:16-17; 28:19; Jn.14:16-17; 1Cor.12:4-6; 2Cor.13:14; Eph.4:4-6; 1Pet.1:1-2; Rev.1:4-6.
What does it mean for God to be Spirit, if the Holy Spirit is just one member of the Trinity?
This is a video-only section.
Why wasn’t the Spirit sent to indwell believers before He actually was (i.e., only after Christ’s ascension)?
This is a video-only section.
Revelation 1:4 - What is going on with the mention of seven Spirits?
This is a video-only section.
Things mentioned in video:
[T]he seven eyes are said to be “the Seven Spirits”, and the Seven Spirits are described in Revelation 1:4-5 as the Holy Spirit, occurring as they do in-between the Father and the Son (please see the link: in CT 2B, “The Seven Lamps of Fire”). Although it is true in scripture that angels are sometimes described as spirits, these seven angels are said to be stars, but not spirits, whereas in the context the term seven-spirits is a synonym used for the Holy Spirit, demonstrating His perfection. The seven eyes on the stone I take to be the Spirit’s anointed of the Messiah (the Rock), as in Is.11 (where the Spirit is likewise described in seven-fold fashion):
(2) And the Spirit of the Lord will rest upon Him (i.e., the Messiah), the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.
In Revelation 5:6, the seven-spirits are said to be 1) “of God” (an odd representation for angels who of course belong to Him, but an important identifier for this otherwise potentially confusing designation for the Spirit), and 2) to be “sent out into the entire earth”; only God can be omnipresent; seven angels, no matter how energetic, would be hard pressed to keep track of all that is going on in the world at all times, even with large a group of subordinates.
Finally, and perhaps decisively, Revelation 3:1 states: “These are the words of Him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars”. This verse distinguished carefully between the two, so that ipso facto they cannot be the same.
What exactly does being baptized into God (becoming united with Him, as part of the body of Christ) actually mean?
This is a video-only section.
The Father is God
See: Matt.6:9; 1Cor.8:6; Eph.3:14-15.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord who is God, “He who is and was and is coming, the Almighty.”
A deeper dive into the interpretation of Ephesians 3:14-15
This is a video-only section.
Interpreting Ephesians 3:15 correctly depends upon translating the phrase πᾶσα πατριὰ as “whole family” rather than “every family”. (Within its normal usage as an adjective generally, πᾶσα can mean either “whole” or “every.” But when interpreting Ephesians 3:15 correctly, it is “whole” not “every” in this specific usage). And so it is that we understand that our global family of believers (i.e., the universal Church—the bride of Christ) “derives its name” from the authority of the Father, just how human families carry the names of their earthly fathers.
The Son is God
See: Jn.5:18; 10:30; 10:33; Rom.9:5; 1Cor.8:6; Col.2:9; Heb.1:3.
The Word existed in the beginning: the Word was both present with the [Father] God [before creation] and the Word was God [in His own right]. This same One was present with the [Father] God in the beginning.
The Holy Spirit is God
See: Gen.1:2; Ps.139:7; Acts 5:3-4; 1Cor.12:11; and compare Heb.3:7-11 with Ps.95:7-11 where the LORD is speaking.
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Lord’s Spirit is, there is freedom.
Video/audio transcript
00:0000:00 - hey guys so this lesson we are going to be talking about how all members of the Trinity are deity they are all Divine uh
00:0900:09 - partaking of the shared Divine Essence and so uh in the last lesson we had finished our kind of introduction to the
00:1800:18 - doctrine of the Trinity uh you know that God is three in person one in essence or one in essence and three in person
00:2400:24 - whichever order you want to take it those two things together are the fundamental definition of the Trinity
00:3100:31 - and so while the father is God and the son is God and the spirit is God the father is not the son or the spirit the
00:3800:38 - son is not the father or the spirit and the spirit is not the father or the son that is the definition of the Trinity um
00:4400:44 - and to help us kind of flesh out our understanding of it what we’re going to be doing here um is kind of
00:5200:52 - going through some things uh discussing about what the Trinity is not um so we’re going to be talking about what it
00:5800:58 - is not and that will help throw into sharper relief what the Trinity actually is at least that’s the idea so this week
01:0501:05 - here we’re just going to talk a little bit about that about why we’re doing that and then we’re going to hit the
01:0901:09 - first point here about you know how the Trinity does not function and so that is that God is one in essence but that does
01:1601:16 - not mean that there’s only one person in the Trinity um or sorry that only one person in the Trinity is deity or Divine
01:2401:24 - in essence um so we’re going to be talking about as sub points here that the father is God the son is God and the
01:2901:29 - Holy Spirit is God um so they are all Divine um they all share in that essence of deity and so that’s going to be
01:3601:36 - mostly what we talk about this time all right so before we get any further we’re just going to talk a
01:4401:44 - little bit more about this idea here um so as we kind of started with in the introduction here last lesson we did
01:5101:51 - give the basic definition of the Trinity that three in person one in essence or one in essence and three in person and
01:5701:57 - we shared the illustration of kind of the triangle Le here explaining how the Trinity Works in terms of its mechanics
02:0402:04 - and so in discussing it uh later on we’ll get to some of the analogies that Dr luginbill uses um imperfect as they
02:1202:12 - are um you know we will be examining the Trinity from multiple different facets but here to start uh having gone over
02:1802:18 - the basic definition what we’re going to do next is try to understand the Trinity better by first considering what it is
02:2502:25 - not in terms of the definition given above and so hopefully this will kind of help us Flex out what we mean when we
02:3102:31 - say that God is three in person and one in essence um rather than just stating that and like I don’t know that’s great
02:3802:38 - maybe we can say you know repeat those words but we kind of have to understand what it means for us to believe it
02:4302:43 - properly and so that’s going to kind of be what our focuses in the next several discussions flushing out this
02:4902:49 - understanding of what three in person one in essence means um in terms of uh particularly some false beliefs in the
02:5602:56 - past or or heresies that have come up to challenge uh the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity um and so that’s kind of
03:0303:03 - what we are going to be focusing on in the next little bit here um a do you have any thoughts on this approach or
03:1003:10 - shall we just go on and get right into it I think we can go on and get into it all right
03:2103:21 - great so the first one of these uh things that the Trinity is not or how the Trinity does not function um so the
03:2903:29 - of the first Counterpoint that we’re going to be arguing against to help us illuminate what the Trinity actually is
03:3503:35 - is this one here uh the key point being that God is one in essence but that does not mean that only one person of the
03:4203:42 - Trinity is deity um or has a divine nature um so God is three in person and all three persons of the Trinity so that
03:5003:50 - is the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are Divine heresies of the past which have challenged the Divinity of
03:5603:56 - the members of the Trinity include adoptionism this is a a past uh teaching or false belief of certain people and
04:0404:04 - adoptionism asserts that Christ is the Son of God only in the sense of adoption so just how human beings have adoption
04:1104:11 - well Christ was adopted as the Son of God rather than being God of course that is a dangerous false Doctrine because
04:1904:19 - you know our Salvation as Christians depends upon Christ being fully Divine and fully man paying for our sins upon
04:2604:26 - the cross as our substitute um and that can only happen if Christ was fully god um because um you know there’s some
04:3604:36 - mechanics in the atonement there maybe we won’t get off in the weeds but you know this is very important stuff right
04:4004:40 - you can’t you can’t get these things wrong um so that’s adoptionism um and then there was also something called the
04:4704:47 - ebionite heresy uh teaching that Christ only had only a human nature empowered by God’s spirit um so we’re not going to
04:5304:53 - get into the nitty-gritty of some of these things you’re certainly welcome to uh you know research them on the
04:5904:59 - internet find some some past teachings past a certain point they’re mostly only useful for us in terms of uh kind of
05:0705:07 - discussing what the Trinity actually is so uh Jesus was not adopted by God and Jesus didn’t have and Jesus didn’t only
05:1405:14 - have a human nature that was somehow kind of specially empowered he had a full divine nature as well um so those
05:2105:21 - are the the things that kind of help us describe what we mean by uh you know all three members of the Trinity uh share in
05:2805:28 - the divine nature or they’re all deity it’s well it’s not these things right and there’s a third one here as well
05:3405:34 - that we’re going to just briefly touch on that’s called Unitarianism which kind of asserts that
05:3905:39 - uh there’s one personality of God um denying the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit um and so uh there are probably
05:4705:47 - other heresies besides you know this is just a sampling that ikus had here to kind of make this point and emphasize
05:5405:54 - that God is one in essence but that does not mean that only one person in the Trinity is deity because they all share
06:0006:00 - in the same Divine Essence um so we’re going to go ahead and read some verses here um there is you know quite a lot of
06:0706:07 - scripture that we could probably pull in here uh we’re certainly not trying to be exhaustive and that’s going to be true
06:1206:12 - for all of the scripture we read for uh much of the support that we have in this lesson and the following ones here um
06:1806:18 - but we’re just going to go ahead and go through some uh Ai and I may discuss some of the passages if we think them
06:2306:23 - noteworthy um or maybe harder to line up with the points we’re trying to make but um it’s just good for for us to get in
06:3006:30 - that habit of just tying everything directly back to the Bible so that’s what we’re going to do here um there’s
06:3606:36 - quite a list here but you know there’s nothing wrong with us keeping the focus directly on the Bible so that’s what
06:4106:41 - we’re going to do for the next little bit here as we go through these lessons so I’ll start here with Isaiah chapter
06:4706:47 - 63 um I’ll probably open these in a separate window just so I can see the full passage here um so Isaiah chapter
06:5506:55 - 63 picking up at verse 9 UM and again this is establishing the point here that um all members of the Trinity are Divine
07:0507:05 - so Isaiah 63: 9 through 14 so says in all their Affliction he was afflicted and the angel of his presence saved them
07:1407:14 - in his love and his Mercy he redeemed them and he lifted them and carried them all the days of old but they rebelled
07:2007:20 - and grieved his holy spirit therefore he turned himself to become their enemy he fought against them then his people
07:2607:26 - remembered the days of old of Moses where is where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the Shepherds of his
07:3307:33 - flock where is he who put his holy spirit in the midst of them who caused his glorious arm to go at the right hand
07:3907:39 - of Moses who divided the waters before them to make for himself an everlasting name who led them through the depths
07:4607:46 - like the horse in the wilderness they did not stumble as the cattle which go down into the valley the spirit of the
07:5107:51 - lord gave them rest so you led your people to make for yourself a glorious name so um this is Isaiah one of the
08:0108:01 - Major Prophets um you can certainly see references in this passage to the spirit of of God and remember this is the Old
08:0808:08 - Testament um and uh we have discussed a little bit last time about how the Old Testament does speak of the Trinity you
08:1708:17 - know the Shadows are there it’s supposed to lead us to question um to maybe have a sliver in the back of our mind that
08:2408:24 - there is more to this than you know there just being uh one God you know um uh uh in terms of monotheistic religion
08:3308:33 - that there are there’s something there right Ai and I kind of expressed that last week um so aie do you have thoughts
08:4008:40 - on this passage and how we’re tying it into um the point of all three members of the Trinity sharing in Divine Essence
08:4908:49 - yeah um not not much right now because I think this one is um it’s it’s almost as if it’s focused
08:5908:59 - but particularly on the Father the angel of his presence is um not very he is there but he’s not prominent
09:0809:08 - the angel of his presence is is spoken of as you know essentially a messenger but a special messenger obviously we
09:1509:15 - know that from other scriptures um then the his holy spirit of course the angle from which I’m looking at things is
09:2409:24 - there are people who um are are very big on how there is just one person in the
09:3309:33 - godhead and he wears so many hats you know so once we are looking at such people this passage may not be all that
09:4009:40 - convincing to them um ex except for the the fact that we talked about the angel of his presence and they dismiss that
09:4509:45 - angel as being a separate person from God himself so but yes this is one very solid passage that tells you that the
09:5209:52 - Trinity was involved in what happened with the Deliverance of the um The Exodus generation
09:5909:59 - of the of Israel so definitely there is much that is said right here um but it will take a bit of getting into tying in
10:1010:10 - with other passages to demonstrate very clearly what we’re talking about I mean and it’s one of those things where you
10:1710:17 - can see the trinity in scripture but you can also see where people throw it out right if they don’t if they don’t
10:2510:25 - interpret passages so for example here in verse 11 when we say he who put his holy spirit right um does that mean that
10:3310:33 - it is you know we as Believers in the Trinity um and we’ll get other passages isn’t like it you know Rises and falls
10:4110:41 - on this passage alone but we would interpret this as you know the father sending the spirit right um and people
10:4810:48 - who believe in a more monotheistic interpretation you know one person and the godhead would say well it’s not a
10:5510:55 - separate person it’s just his Spirit we’ll get into this more um and part of the problem is it’s kind of hard to talk
11:0011:00 - about all this in terms of like right Doctrine without hitting all the facets at once this one specifically we’re
11:0511:05 - trying to argue that they’re all Divine we do have another lesson that we will be going through talking about how they
11:1011:10 - are actually all distinct persons they’re not just modes or aspect of a single person um we’ll get to that
11:1811:18 - that’s a next lesson but um you we’ll keep going I I don’t want to get blocked but I just reading lots of scripture is
11:2411:24 - the correct approach to help us kind of get that context here so this one from the New Testament Matthew chapter 3 um
11:3211:32 - so um very clear passage here for the the um uh sort of divine sunship is what we would say right this is Jesus’s
11:4111:41 - baptism by John the Baptist the spirit of God uh descending right so again this is mention of the spirit specifically
11:5011:50 - but also Jesus is described here as the Son of God and we mentioned that there is this concept
11:5611:56 - of adoptionism um but but this passage doesn’t say um you know actually I don’t want to get
12:0312:03 - too far off topic but there’s this other passage in the Bible that talks about like this day I have begotten you do you
12:0912:09 - know what I’m talking about aie um yes Bo it’s very vexing because people who get into some of the trinitarian
12:1612:16 - heresies talk about the Eternal beginning of the Sun and all that nonsense and what that passage is
12:2112:21 - talking about is the Incarnation right but you can see here in the baptism that what we’re actually getting at is that
12:2712:27 - Jesus is the son of God did become the Son of God he is the Son of God um so yeah I don’t know if there’s too much
12:3412:34 - more to say here but definitely a passage where you see the spirit of God descending like a dove uh you know very
12:4012:40 - uh strong visual imagery here but also of course that well Jesus is the son of God you know very clear proof text right
12:4812:48 - um so I believe Matthew 28:19 this next one this is the Great Commission um you know baptizing them into um I this this
12:5612:56 - will come up again in one of the other lessons ich this uh talks about this preposition here being into um and then
13:0313:03 - the idiom of the name of or the person of the father and the Son and the Holy Spirit we’re talking about spiritual
13:0713:07 - baptism here although of course many people in the church teach that this is water baptism but what we’re actually
13:1413:14 - talking about is baptizing them into the person of God um the the the Trinity uh in United um as the three persons um so
13:2413:24 - it’s stronger the trinitarian connection is stronger when you understand that actually because you’re saying that
13:3013:30 - you’re baptizing them into God as a singular person right they’re all God um and that’s different than just like it
13:3813:38 - being some magic incantation you do when you baptize people with water um indeed
13:4613:46 - indeed all right keep going so that there’s that that um equation of the father to the Son and the spirit in that
13:5513:55 - passage which is very significant if if the the if the other two as some people like to say were subordinate to the
14:0314:03 - father then why why is it the name or the person of the three rather than the name or the person of the
14:1114:11 - father that’s yeah and actually in Greek this is what we would call probably I don’t know like a Distributive
14:1814:18 - construction I don’t want to just make up words I don’t know if that’s an actual grammatical term but you can take
14:2214:22 - the name of um you know the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit the name goes kind of all three
14:2914:29 - right it’s not like you have the name of the father and then the Son and the Holy Spirit are separate it’s the name of the
14:3414:34 - father and they kind of implied the name of the son and the name of the holy spirit this is why we get that that
14:3914:39 - preposition being into is so important um from like it’s not a a wrote formula we’re talking about the mechanics of of
14:4814:48 - becoming part of the body of Christ baptism into god um and so you know like you said this passage will come back up
14:5714:57 - um it’s actually used in one of the other lessons is talking about the equality between the members of the
15:0215:02 - Trinity like you were saying but I it’s hard to discuss all this without getting to all of the bits but um we shall we
15:0815:08 - shall carry on um so John chapter 14 this time um so this is Jesus asking the father for the helper right here you
15:1715:17 - actually see again all three members of the Trinity this is one of those passages that’s really hard to explain
15:2415:24 - of if there’s obviously Jesus In this passage who we know clearly to be God in fact Jesus in my opinion is one of the
15:3115:31 - easiest members of the Trinity I think the spirit is harder to see sometimes because you know in John chapter one you
15:3815:38 - know the word being God is like it’s it’s right there right Very Yes um but here you actually see that Jesus who we
15:4515:45 - know is God from that passage and others is asking the father um obviously separate from him right to give another
15:5315:53 - helper which is the spirit right and verse 17 says it is the spirit right right and the father can’t be the Helper
16:0116:01 - because that doesn’t make any sense and Jesus can’t be the Helper because he’s asking for it right you see this is
16:0616:06 - where it comes from um and I feel like sometimes people kind of what’s the right way to say this they like they
16:1316:13 - make light of the evidence that we have right in the Bible and so if you remember last time one of the points we
16:1816:18 - made um that I said ikus makes is that ikus is very dismissive of this idea that like you can’t get the Trinity from
16:2516:25 - the Bible you know that it was like something that took for people to understand and believe or whatever like
16:3116:31 - basically like no one actually believed in the Trinity until like the Council of Na or something I think that was 325 my
16:3716:37 - days could be a little long but like that’s just nonsense because like if you read this verse and I mean like does it
16:4416:44 - help that we have church Traditions helping inform us of the doctrine of the Trinity okay fine sure but like it’s
16:5016:50 - right there in scripture you know we’re not making huge jumps in logic to get there
16:5616:56 - um this is one of those it’s right there yeah exactly as a matter of fact um I think I don’t know if it was this
17:0617:06 - passage or another but I faced off with someone some years ago who was insisting that Jesus is the father and the Holy
17:1417:14 - Spirit is is the same that you know he was going off of God is spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in
17:2217:22 - spirit and in truth so he was like well if God is Spirit the father is the Holy Spirit and Jesus is the father and so on
17:2817:28 - and so for it was I I faced off with when I was like when you look at this passage it’s pretty it’s like very
17:3417:34 - straightforward was this passage and probably another one I will ask the father you it’s not I
17:4217:42 - won’t ask myself I’m going to ask somebody outside of me and that person will give another helper that’s helper
17:4917:49 - that’s not me and very clearly if I’m asking this person for another helper I’m not asking
17:5717:57 - this person for him himself yeah I’m asking for somebody else so if if nothing else this passage should make it
18:0518:05 - very clear that there are three persons in view not one certainly not two so we have we never I think it’s like when
18:1618:16 - when Muslims would would quarrel with the fact that the Trinity is not in the Bible it’s like why does it have to be
18:2218:22 - in the Bible we did not smuggle it into the scriptures this is what you read out of the scriptures
18:3018:30 - and for ease of communication we just named it the Trinity but it is a thing that’s evident in the Bible itself it’s
18:3918:39 - hardly worth a lot of talking about and I think this is why theology as a study on EES is so short because it’s like
18:4718:47 - these things are too obvious they are manifestly obvious once you look at look into the Bible for
18:5318:53 - yourself yeah all right onwards you know what we will touch on all of this again you know
19:0019:00 - uh this first section I guess this section will be a little bit long as we go through but it it’s not bad to repeat
19:0619:06 - ourselves some in establishing the points um so right uh the parallelism here this is uh the passage in Ephesians
19:1519:15 - chapter 12 that talks about how even though we all have gifts our Ministries may be different actually important in
19:2019:20 - not shoehorning people into like for example um in the modern Church uh people think that pastors have to be a
19:2719:27 - very specific way that’s just not there in scripture um but if you look at this we have three-fold repetition here right
19:3519:35 - Same Spirit same Lord same God right who works things in all persons um you know I I would say strongest evidence is that
19:4419:44 - we have spirit and Lord here um separate Divine um yeah the second Corinthians chapter 13 verse 14 um this is one of
19:5519:55 - those uh kind of I’m not sure if this is the very end of second Corinthians but it’s kind of like one of the
20:0020:00 - benedictions here very common uh you know like I think Peter starts with one too that talks it mentions all three
20:0620:06 - people in the Trinity right um so beginnings and ends of a lot of the Epistles you’ll see this um the grace of
20:1220:12 - the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and The Fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all right all three
20:1820:18 - of them are mentioned here directly um yeah yeah and again if you just think about this in terms of the analogies are
20:2620:26 - imperfect but if you’re kind of name not name dropping what’s the right way um if you’re talking about someone in terms of
20:3420:34 - their titles and their attributes it doesn’t make sense to like mention the same person like three times like this
20:3920:39 - right um you know like it would just be like uh it just is nonsensical the only way that this sort of uh this sort of
20:4820:48 - greeting or this sort of um um it’s the opposite of greeting like I’m thinking of like the the Latin word for I can’t
20:5720:57 - think of the English one valuations valuations huh um but whatever what you say to people when you’re telling them
21:0221:02 - goodbye um uh that this formula comes up so often it just doesn’t make sense unless you have the Trinity there um
21:1221:12 - yeah yeah all right just several more um Ephesians chapter 4 verse chapter verses four through six um
21:2421:24 - so you know one body and one Spirit one Lord One Faith one baptism one God and Father of all this one’s actually
21:3221:32 - probably worthy of a bit more discussion because it seems to be emphasizing the Oneness here right um shared Divine
21:3921:39 - Essence um but just because there’s one Spirit doesn’t mean that God is one in the sense of not having three persons um
21:5221:52 - it’s it’s just one of those places where it’s stamped again like all the other passages we saw one one common
21:5821:58 - denominator of all the passages that we saw is the fact that in in one piece of text you see three persons or at least
22:0822:08 - three times The Mention Of God in several different ways so you have like in this case one Spirit one Lord one God
22:2022:20 - and Father you know you could make of that whatever you want but in the end there are three mentions here
22:2822:28 - and these three mentions follow the same largely the same formula May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and uh the love
22:3822:38 - of God and The Fellowship of the holy spirit so we when you compare that to what we just saw in Ephesians 4 it goes
22:4722:47 - um one Spirit one Lord one God and Father you you go back to Matthew 28 as well and it said in the name of the
22:5722:57 - father father and which we see in Ephesians 4 again where it says one God and
23:0423:04 - Father of the son and we see the sun replaced by Lord and of the spirit the spirit is a constant factor in all of
23:1323:13 - these so it’s like you keep seeing this it’s it’s there and it’s telling you see this and understand it it’s right in
23:2123:21 - your face it’s not hidden anymore not like it was in the in the Old Testament it’s right there glaring so yes not so
23:2923:29 - far a field yes just just a point of clarity the word Lord here in the Greek is the Greek word cuos um so I pulled it
23:3823:38 - up here here’s a concordance that shows it and of note here specifically in terms of the parallelism that ai’s
23:4323:43 - noting is that this word here definitely referring to Jesus Christ right Spirit Christ God the father right like you
23:5023:50 - said right there um now of course this word can actually be applied to God proper so for example up here uh you
23:5823:58 - know as the Angel um you know uh like you see it used it where it’s less clear that is is Christ
24:0724:07 - but um it is used very clearly of Christ and you know in context here that’s what we would understand this to be um so
24:1424:14 - yeah I mean like you said it’s right there right um yeah I believe this is First Peter I think I actually mentioned
24:2124:21 - this passage this is another one of those another one of those things in salutation mentioned all three members
24:2824:28 - of the Trinity just super clear right why would you word it this way if they were all the same person you wouldn’t um
24:3724:37 - yeah yeah it doesn’t it doesn’t make a lot of sense to word it that way especially given all the repetitions
24:4324:43 - that we keep seeing I mean this is a lot of passages and they’re all written by different people Matthew was written by
24:5224:52 - Matthew we just read Paul we now see Peter there was John as well and all of them are following largely the same
25:0025:00 - formula y there is God who is also called the father there is Jesus Christ who is every every now and then in in
25:1125:11 - different places replaced by the word Lord and then there’s the spirit that’s always the spirit so it’s like I mean if
25:1925:19 - this whole thing is puzzling to you it’s got to say well there is something being said here that you should notice that’s
25:2725:27 - one definite thing about it all right and last we’re going to pick up this is another one of those greetings here you
25:3525:35 - know mentioned the greetings and the whatever the opposite of greetings are called I think there’s a word for it in
25:3925:39 - English it’s escaped me um but um we have Grace and peace from him who is and he who was and who is to come right um
25:4825:48 - from the seven spirits before his throne from Jesus Christ and his God and Father right yeah yeah right there again
25:5825:58 - um so um yeah this has been an excellent introduction you know we’ll probably hit these passages they will come up as we
26:0526:05 - make other points about the Trinity but you can just see um by way of introduction even to these this concept
26:1226:12 - of things the Trinity is not it’s all over the place in the New Testament um for sure you know that first passage we
26:1826:18 - read that was in Isaiah too um it’s it’s more there in Shadows we talked about that right something that leaves a
26:2526:25 - question mark about how exactly what is it mean for Elohim to be plural right is it just a plural of majesty or When God
26:3126:31 - says let us make man in our image you know it’s plural you know it’s there it leaves that it leaves that tendency to
26:3926:39 - be like what exactly does this mean um and then in the New Testament boom right here everywhere we see this this talking
26:4726:47 - about God in terms of Threes it’s just all over the place um yeah yeah all right well that is our
26:5626:56 - general introduction here to pull this back maybe it seems like I don’t know that not all of these passages are so
27:0227:02 - directly hitting this one about how uh God is all you know all three members of the Trinity are uh share the the same
27:1027:10 - Divine Essence they’re all deity um one of the stronger arguments uh just to kind of close this out in summary is
27:1527:15 - probably that that the one from the Great Commission you know we mentioned they’re all mentioned uh if we expected
27:2227:22 - that one of them weren’t Divine or that there was subordination within the Trinity they’re they’re kind of like all
27:2827:28 - in the same breath here right the father and the Son and the Holy Spirit you know just you know one right after the other
27:3427:34 - not the father and then I don’t know exactly how else you would say it in the Greek if you were trying to show
27:3927:39 - subordination but not this right um I mean I think anyone who who has issues with actually seeing the equality of the
27:4827:48 - three can see that how ridiculous it would be to go baptizing them in the name of the father and of Angel Michael
27:5427:54 - and Angel Gabriel because at that point you instantly see the the Ridiculousness of what you’ve
28:0028:00 - just done you’ve equated two wellknown subordinates of the father of God to God I mean right you wouldn’t put them on
28:1028:10 - the same level as the father but here we have the Bible actually saying it’s like um when Paul says uh just like the
28:1928:19 - greeting we saw in Revelation just now um grace to you and peace from God the father and the Lord Jesus Christ like um
28:2728:27 - okay would you say that would you replace Jesus with any other name there and have that make any sense you you
28:3328:33 - know what I think reminds me of this reminds me of a little bit um in history you know like when kings knighted people
28:3928:39 - or whatever there’s kind of like this ritual the formula that goes along with it or whatever or they’re giving people
28:4428:44 - rewards so they’re like in the Name of the King you do this or in the Name of the King you do that now just imagine
28:5028:50 - there’s this dude off the street who walks in and says in the Name of the King and in my name you know well take
28:5728:57 - seriously you know it’s just like it doesn’t carry the power and the authority and you know we talked about
29:0229:02 - this when we were talking about God’s Essence as the de facto and de jur ruler of the universe he is the king the king
29:0929:09 - of kings and Lord of lords that’s what we’re talking about here right and so yeah when we have this sort of and
29:1629:16 - especially like I said the the argument we’re making here in Matthew chapter 28 hits so much harder when you understand
29:2329:23 - that what we’re talking about is spiritual baptism into the body of Christ not just a ritual it is uh yes I
29:3229:32 - want to use the word ontological that’s pretty strong philosophical Jaron but you know it’s a matter of our who we are
29:3829:38 - our being um our station how we’re connected with the body of Christ you know it’s a it’s a big powerful thing
29:4429:44 - and for that to be something that happens with all three members they have to be divine they have to be God that’s
29:5129:51 - the only way it works um yes yes all right well I think we have discussed a lot of good things here but
30:0130:01 - this is where we’ll leave this bit and uh you know the next ones is not that we haven’t already had passages here but
30:0630:06 - we’re just going to go establish that uh all three members of the Trinity are in fact Divine um that’s where we’ll turn
30:1330:13 - our Focus the next little bit all right so uh before we move on actually to the next slide in this
30:2030:20 - series uh we had some good questions about just clarifying certain aspects of the verses that we’ve just been going
30:2730:27 - through um so one of the first questions here um kind of getting at that concept that we talked about maybe people have
30:3530:35 - an easier time kind of intuitively understanding how the son is separate from the father um but the Holy
30:4130:41 - Spirit can kind of be tricky for us to wrap our heads around um you know we see these passages where he’s discussed as
30:4730:47 - you know the third person but what is it what does it mean for you know God to be spirit and yet you know we have God the
30:5630:56 - Holy Spirit and you know how exactly does that work I think one thing that will help us here is that God
31:0331:03 - fundamentally is not like us he’s not like the Angels either so when we talk about human beings we say that we have
31:0931:09 - um the Flesh and the spirit um right we at least ik this teaches as do I um that we are dichotomous beings we have flesh
31:1731:17 - and spirit um we are souls biblically speaking that word that we translate as Soul can also be translated as mind or
31:2531:25 - life um and so we are uh flesh and spirit together compose uh who we are as individuals and that is what the soul is
31:3431:34 - not to get too often the WS there but um point being when we talk about human spirits that is like the part of us that
31:4031:40 - is not physical fleshly um but human beings are composed of both flesh and spirit in fact um it’s an important
31:4831:48 - Doctrine in terms of our resurrection that we will be resurrected into bodies rather than um being
31:5431:54 - incorporeal uh boy that’s a big word um God fundamentally is God God’s not like this right Jesus actually has a human
32:0432:04 - nature it’s very one of the things that ought to blow our minds about the Incarnation and the Dual nature of
32:0932:09 - Christ being fully God and fully man is that he actually does have a human nature um but he also has the Divine
32:1632:16 - Essence of God and that’s what we’ve been talking about here um so maybe all of this doesn’t maybe it doesn’t help
32:2232:22 - right but what I’m trying to get at is that God doesn’t have like I don’t know like his his Spirit as something that’s
32:3032:30 - like separate from his being generally not in the same way that we as humans do because our beings are not composed just
32:3732:37 - of spirit um and also I’m trying to think about the right way to phrase this too we talked some
32:4432:44 - about how God isn’t part of SpaceTime um and so when we say that Angels Are Spiritual they’re also Bound by
32:5132:51 - SpaceTime and I I I think we spent some time a you might remember better than me we spent some time talking about that
32:5732:57 - right um a angels are not as constrained as we are in certain ways but they’re also like they’re not like God too um
33:0733:07 - and so Angels Are Spiritual yes but they’re also not spiritual how God is spiritual so I don’t know if I’m helping
33:1433:14 - much other than just saying God is very different than us right um and I think how we talk about it kind of conditions
33:2133:21 - maybe how hard it is for us to understand so a how about how about you go for a bit here see if you
33:2733:27 - it so I want to assure you that the way you you describe it is exactly right um the the spirituality of God the reason
33:3733:37 - John John chapter 4 talks about God being a spirit is to was specifically to tell the woman at the well of
33:4633:46 - SAA that God was not limited by location the woman had been asking are we supposed to Worship in the
33:5633:56 - temple in Jerusalem or on the mountains and Jesus was telling her it makes no difference to God where you
34:0634:06 - worship because he himself is not bound by any location that was what he was saying to
34:1334:13 - her so it wasn’t so much that God is a spirit so that you start thinking well that must mean that God is the Holy
34:2434:24 - Spirit and the father is is the holy spirit Jesus is the holy spirit because the holy spirit is spirit it’s talking
34:3234:32 - about what type of being so to speak and we have to be very careful about that word what type of being God is that’s
34:4134:41 - what it’s saying and that is to say strictly speaking the father is a spirit the son is a spir is a spirit the holy
34:5434:54 - spirit is a spirit so it’s not that that God is a spirit and somehow we have to equate the father and the son to the
35:0235:02 - holy spirit for that reason now holy spirit is a title that the Bible has given to us for the third person of the
35:1235:12 - Trinity it is not in any way a description or a definition of the type of God’s being it’s just the title given
35:2135:21 - to the third person of the Trinity as a matter of fact the only name personal name that we have for God at all in the
35:3035:30 - scriptures is Jesus Christ Jesus not well Christ Christ is the title too and think about it that name is speaking of
35:4035:40 - the fact that God is the savior of the human race we don’t have a name in the scriptures just as my name is Odie and
35:5135:51 - Steven’s name is Steven we don’t have one for God in the Bible apart from Jesus Christ we have
35:5835:58 - titles for God we have descriptive um uh names too like we the the closest you can get we have the the
36:0936:09 - you know the tetragramaton in that’s what I was just talk about we have the the I am name but that I am name is
36:1836:18 - speaking to what deity is and basically that was God saying to Moses I am the true God because I am
36:2736:27 - that which is and will always be and will never change that was he was made basically making a claim to Moses I am
36:3736:37 - the true God so when you go to the Israelites tell them that the true God sent you to them that’s the the name by
36:4436:44 - which I will be known that is I’m laying claim to deity and everything that calls itself deity is alive before me so we we
36:5436:54 - get to hear God make a claim to what it is which is self-existence that he he exists entirely on his own will that he
37:0237:02 - is not subject to any external influence he will never change has never changed will never and and is not changing
37:1037:10 - that’s what he was saying to um Moses at that point and once once you you you understand all of this you come to
37:1837:18 - appreciate for example when um Jacob asked the Lord when he was wrestling with him what is your name and he said
37:2537:25 - why do you ask him my name saying it’s too wonderful for you you you you can’t know me that intimately just yet because
37:3437:34 - that that degree of intimacy is too much for you to bear and and it’s true we can’t bear it in the flesh it will take
37:4037:40 - our actually um being removed from this body or being in the resurrection body we basically have to be outside of this
37:4837:48 - flesh to be able to experience God in that degree of intimacy but the point is that when the Bible talks about God
37:5737:57 - being a spirit it’s not saying God is the holy spirit it’s saying that that is the type of being that he is now just as
38:0838:08 - Stephen has said too there’s a difference between God’s spirituality and spirituality of everything that
38:1338:13 - exists and we have to be very clear about this apart from Flora I think that refers to plant life everything else on
38:2238:22 - Earth has a spirit that’s that’s one thing we have to pay attention to Ecclesiastes is very
38:2838:28 - clear that even animals possess a spirit so um angels are spirits human beings are spirits that live in in bodies you
38:3838:38 - know can I cut in here for a sec I think this will really help it’s because spirit in the Bible I pulled up both the
38:4438:44 - Hebrew word here ruak and the Greek word Numa both of these and this is such a such a huge thing and it’s you can’t
38:5238:52 - miss it because the same word used for Spirit in both the old test and the New Testament they have the same
38:5838:58 - connotations even across the two languages and Greek and Hebrew are very dissimilar languages right Hebrew is
39:0239:02 - Semitic Greek is indoan etc etc um but it means breath as well things that are alive have Spirits spirit and breath are
39:1339:13 - synonymous now um Audie has been talking about the title and the the you know sort of this distinction between names
39:1939:19 - and titles the Holy Spirit as we’ve said it’s a title and what it gets to um and this is one of those critical things
39:2639:26 - when we talk about the roles in the Trinity uh the adopted roles that how we relate to the Trinity um in their plan
39:3239:32 - for mankind the spirit is the Unseen empowerer right just how the wind has its effects it’s not for no reason that
39:4139:41 - this title was chosen is what we’re saying exactly exactly that’s an excellent way to to describe that I
39:4839:48 - think that actually puts P to that question so um bottom line is when we see in John chapter 4 God is a spirit
39:5539:55 - it’s not telling us in any way that we should restrict the understanding of the godhead to just the Holy Spirit um I was
40:0440:04 - going to point out too that there are different types of spirits so to speak there Angelic Spirits there are human
40:1040:10 - Spirits there are animal spirits and then there is God God is a spirit in the sense of not being part of the creation
40:1840:18 - that he made he is not anything like the universe so his spirituality and the spirituality of angels are
40:2740:27 - Worlds Apart they’re not even similar in that sense because the spirituality of of angels was created the spiritually
40:3540:35 - the spirituality of God is what he is it’s an uncreated thing I will also say that I think yeah I I think one other
40:4440:44 - point to make here um I’m just trying to put my finger on what I was trying to say earlier was that it God doesn’t have
40:5140:51 - anything other than Spirit right and I made this point with humans right but it’s not like you talk about the spirit
40:5740:57 - of God as if God exists you know as if it’s just like part of God right um you know like God has some other thing and
41:0441:04 - then God has his Spirit right God is Spirit you know in the in the Divine spirit that we’re talking about here as
41:1041:10 - distinct from the other types that Audi’s mentioned um I don’t know if that if that helps
41:1641:16 - but like you can’t disentangle it is the thing and when we talk about the capital T Holy Spirit yeah that was a very good
41:2441:24 - point particularly too because of when people say that the father sends his Spirit as if he has something other than
41:3141:31 - Spirit yeah he is spirit so if the father is sending the spirit it is Spirit sending Spirit that’s just how it
41:3941:39 - how that works there is no other but in terms of what we would call Essence or ontology or whatever to use the big
41:4541:45 - words but like but that’s not even what those pastors are getting at when we say the father sends the spirit what we’re
41:5041:50 - talking about is the father sending the third person of the Trinity as the helper exactly and that’s the point
41:5641:56 - that’s the point that is just to say that it’s not like the father is like the body something and the spirit is his
42:0542:05 - Spirit I’ve heard those arguments and what you said really gets at the heart of them which is God is not made up of
42:1242:12 - multiple parts and and one part of his is is the spirit that he sends forth or something of that sort what we are
42:1842:18 - saying essentially is that the definition of God in terms of type of being is Spirit that’s what the Bible
42:2742:27 - tells us so we should stop thinking in terms of oh because the Bible says God is a spirit there must be some way of
42:3542:35 - reconciling the fact that he is called Holy Spirit and he is called father and he’s also called Jesus Christ it must be
42:4242:42 - that the holy spirit is the spirit of the father as if the father were an empty husk that has a spirit like we
42:5142:51 - human beings we have a spirit or we are a spirit living in a body or something we are made of two comp components or
43:0043:00 - something of that sort well just to just to rip on it even more it actually makes no sense from a I want to say
43:0643:06 - philosophical point of view maybe that’s not quite the right word but if God is being and we just use this point that
43:1243:12 - things that are alive have breath you see where I’m going with this right yeah how can God not be alive you
43:1943:19 - know it doesn’t make sense that’s why God has to be spirit I hope I’m not pushing the the the words connotation
43:2443:24 - too far here but you see where going right that there’s no way in which God is somehow not Spirit you know because
43:3143:31 - that’s that’s what defines existence that’s what defines being um yes at least in the Eternal sense um so yes um
43:4043:40 - yes so that that that that makes a that makes a a great deal of sense okay um it looks like Lisa had a follow-up question
43:5143:51 - so her follow-up question here was why couldn’t the Spirit come while Jesus was here if they’re separate beings so I I
43:5843:58 - don’t think it’s a matter of couldn’t as this is more a question of why didn’t the father send the spirit until after
44:0544:05 - Jesus was ascended and that’s not a matter of could or could not that’s a matter of God’s choice in perfect timing
44:1344:13 - right because God go ahead sorry I’m sorry I’m cutting in but the Holy Spirit was actually here on Earth with Jesus at
44:2244:22 - the same time not only was he he actually I mean the Bible tells us the spirit of God came to rest upon Jesus at
44:2944:29 - at the baptism there was also the fact that the disciples were sent forth with a portion of the spirit on them there
44:3844:38 - was John the Baptist at the same time whom of whom it was recorded in Luke that the spirit of God was upon him from
44:4844:48 - the womb so I’m not sure I’m not sure we have any basis on which to say that the Holy Spirit was not here at this same
44:5644:56 - time that Jesus was they were both on Earth I know I know what the question is getting at though right why didn’t the
45:0345:03 - Holy Spirit personally indwell most humans until after Pentecost right I it’s more along the lines right because
45:1045:10 - even people in the old test like David had the Holy Spirit right um Samuel right prophets and we know that the
45:1745:17 - restraining Ministry of the Holy Spirit has always been present since the beginning and when it’s removed I think
45:2245:22 - it’s what second Thessalonians talks about it first Thessalonians maybe you know the remove
45:2745:27 - yes yeah um the removal of the Restraint of the Holy Spirit things will go south real quick and that is the impact of the
45:3445:34 - spirit being here spirit’s always been here right but I I I mean I can’t speak for Lisa but I’m guessing that the
45:3945:39 - question is more what about you know like when we have these passages that says that um Jesus is asking the father
45:4745:47 - to send the helper right um why why wasn’t the helper sent before that maybe that’s more where we’re going here um
45:5745:57 - okay can we confirm confirm that uh although we will of course discuss that question as well but yeah Lisa says Lisa
46:0546:05 - says that’s what it is yeah okay so go on then uh well more to me I think this gets into the wisdom of the plan of God
46:1546:15 - um you know uh could people have been indwelt by the holy spirit before Jesus ascended answer to that seems to be
46:2646:26 - well I mean we certainly had people who acted under the influence of the holy spirit before this point right um I I
46:3346:33 - think part of it is that you know it’s the whole Paradigm Shift of we are no longer under the law we’re we’re
46:4046:40 - dwelling under grace Christ has ascended we are positionally our sin has been blotted out in the Book of Life we are
46:4746:47 - right with the father reconciled to God and we have that Unity um I see the think I’m not sure that the phrasing
46:5546:55 - could could not is necessarily the right way to look at this so much as it’s a uh being sealed with the Holy Spirit under
47:0247:02 - the New Covenant is the sign of reconciliation with God maybe that’s too hand wavy but um I’m interested to see
47:1047:10 - what you say um okay so um there’s John chapter 7 verse 39 and it goes but this he spoke
47:2047:20 - concerning the spirit whom those believing in him would receive for the Holy Spirit was not yet given
47:2647:26 - because Jesus was not yet glorified okay so um the answer is right there might take a little bit of
47:3447:34 - unpacking to actually you know see what it’s saying but the answer is right there on the face of it Jesus was not
47:4147:41 - yet glorified therefore the spirit was not yet given we know that in fact Jesus said to the disciples um the Holy Spirit
47:4947:49 - who will be in you he is with you now but he will be in you later that’s what he said to them just before he went to
47:5747:57 - the Cross that’s in John chapter 16 I believe it’s somewhere between John 14 and John 16
48:0348:03 - so what is this um he’s not yet being glorified talking about let’s remember what’s going on in the
48:1448:14 - story We Are by Nature God’s enemies we’re Rebels and while some of us don’t quite
48:2448:24 - well not some of us General we just don’t really get what’s happening the the relationship that God’s Free Will
48:3248:32 - creatures were supposed to have with him is one of intimacy it’s symbolized by marriage the same way that a man and a
48:4048:40 - woman come together and become one flesh that is literally there’s no difference between the two of them they’re in such
48:4748:47 - Perfect Harmony that they are one thing and this is also what we see in the Trinity which is why Jesus said the
48:5548:55 - prayer he said in John 17 that they may be one as we are one that they may be one with us so the idea is that we will
49:0249:02 - have this same Unity with with with the Trinity that the Trinity has in itself that’s what God is aiming for he’s
49:1149:11 - dwelling in us and Us in him that’s what he’s pushing for now because we were his enemies on what basis then would he
49:2349:23 - grant us that Unity so when his Spirit was actually operating on uh prophets and kings and you know Believers of the
49:3349:33 - old times it was more like I’m doing that in view it’s like a uh what would you call it like a credit a credit line
49:4249:42 - or something there’s I’m giving you this because of a promise that has been made so Jesus was yet to come and die but
49:5249:52 - because that was a certain thing the Lord granted those uh uh bounds those experiences of him to those who believed
50:0450:04 - but in fact that Unity that Binding Together that relationship that was going to be found by the Holy Spirit
50:1350:13 - coming into us to live in our bodies to share Fellowship in such an intimate fashion with us essentially
50:2250:22 - saying to us you are like you are mine and I am yours that situation was never going to
50:3050:30 - be a thing in that way unless Jesus had paid the price for our sins and the the way we could know that that that um
50:4050:40 - sacrifice had been accepted was that Jesus was going to be glorified that meant he had been restored to the place
50:4650:46 - that he gave up in order to pay that price that is God saying I accepted what you’ve done and it’s wonderful come
50:5550:55 - let’s go back to the fellowship we had you know I don’t want to get off topic because we don’t we don’t want to go too
51:0251:02 - far field here anyway but um there’s this interesting idea in terms of atonement Theory um that’s the word used
51:0951:09 - when we’re discussing about what exactly is it that God did to reconcile us to himself how were our sins paid for um
51:1751:17 - there’s this interesting verse um I don’t remember exactly I think it’s somewhere in Romans that talks about how
51:2351:23 - you know if if Christ maybe it’s not right I don’t remember if Christ had not been raised we would have all believed
51:2851:28 - for nothing right well if you say well if Christ already died for our sins on the cross wouldn’t we have been saved
51:3451:34 - even if he wasn’t raised from the dead I don’t know if you’ve ever thought of that um it’s one of those things where
51:3951:39 - if you if you look at it and you aren’t careful with how you phrase your question and how you understand what it
51:4651:46 - means the glorification of Christ his the ra his raising from the dead and his Ascension to the father and and sitting
51:5451:54 - at his right hand this is God’s acceptance of the payment of the Cross right and so um you know God is just
52:0352:03 - it’s not like he couldn’t have not accepted it right um in the same way that a just judge would you know render
52:0852:08 - Justice in a case if if a crime had been paid for or whatever um or someone who holds a loan right a just person who
52:1752:17 - holds a loan once it is repaid is not going to exact more from the person and so on um but the glorification of Christ
52:2552:25 - is that stamp of approval on the work of the Cross and um just to kind of maybe round out this question a bit more the
52:3252:32 - Holy Spirit indwells us after the point of spiritual regeneration once we have become part of the body of Christ we are
52:4052:40 - you know United with God through the indwelling of the holy spirit that happens on account of what Christ did
52:4652:46 - for us on the cross um so AI mentioned the whole credit thing with the Old Testament Believers um I don’t even know
52:5252:52 - how profitable it is for us to compare the you know the ministry of the Holy Spirit
52:5752:57 - upon Believers in the New Testament with the ministry of the Holy Spirit on Believers in the Old Testament I mean we
53:0153:01 - know that it’s mentioned is having some of these folks having the spirit of God do they have it in the same way that we
53:0853:08 - have it does it does it really matter you see what I’m saying like I mean like what exactly are the differences Etc is
53:1653:16 - that important for understanding I mean like it maybe it’s interesting to speculate about but I think the key not
53:2253:22 - speculate when you look at Ephesians chapter 4 it’s actually pretty straightforward that when he um ascended
53:2953:29 - he gave gifts to men right those gifts did not exist prior I mean yes there were prophets but there were no Apostles
53:3753:37 - there were no Pastor teachers there were Levites who were supposed to interpret the law and even among those Levites
53:4353:43 - they you you saw that it was a special case that you would see that the Holy Spirit came upon someone now consider
53:5053:50 - this fact consider this that Saul first king of well not the first King but still when the when the kingdom was
53:5753:57 - established as a thing after Samuel he was the first king um Saul was a Believer right up to the end of his life
54:0654:06 - but there was a point at which the Holy Spirit was taken from him that’s a very important difference
54:1354:13 - between Believers of that time and Believers of today if you don’t have the Holy Spirit now in this dispensation in
54:2154:21 - this era you’re not a Believer any M but he was a Believer who had to
54:2854:28 - function without the Holy Spirit and remember Paul David’s very stringing cry in in Psalm 53 when he asked the Lord
54:3754:37 - not to remove his Spirit from him we have never we Believers have never seen what it is like to love the Lord and not
54:4654:46 - have his spirit in us we don’t know what that is like it’s a horrible existence it’s a very painful miserable existence
54:5254:52 - being because this world yeah I just going to say you know I I don’t want us to get we we’ve already talked a good
54:5954:59 - bit here um hopefully we’ve answered the gist of the question I mean I’m sorry to cut you off a bit here sure sure sure I
55:0455:04 - have up on the screen here the verse this is exactly what Audi just said this is how we know New Testament that if
55:0955:09 - anyone doesn’t have the spirit of Christ they’re not Believers um Romans 8 uh chapter 8 verse 9 but more what I was
55:1755:17 - getting at was it that we can’t know certain things about I my point was we don’t need to go exercise our minds
55:2255:22 - about what exactly was different you know because one difference like you pointed out is that the spirit could be
55:2755:27 - removed like it was removed from Saul and it can’t today well that’s a difference right but I mean I I don’t
55:3355:33 - know how how how how like useful it is to go compare and contrast what their version you know like how having the
55:4155:41 - Spirit uh the blessing of the spirit or the anointing of the spirit um as David had for them is different than what all
55:4855:48 - believers have now it’s just the point is is that regardless for us the spirit was given because of Christ’s
55:5555:55 - glorification because of the acceptance of his payment that’s kind of the the answer to the the underlying question I
56:0256:02 - think so let’s pause for a sec make sure we we kind of got all the uh points hit on that one so that’s where we’re going
56:1156:11 - to close out here this conversation about um uh the spirit of God and and how does God have the spirit and is that
56:1856:18 - different from the Holy Spirit and also why wasn’t the Holy Spirit sent um until the Ascension um and now we’re going to
56:2556:25 - turn to discussing the Sevenfold spirit of God as it’s mentioned in Revelation so this was kind of where we
56:3356:33 - were going to pick up next um in the verse that we were reading in Revelation which we were focusing primarily upon uh
56:4156:41 - the aspect of three persons of the Trinity mentioned in this verse but one of the questions we had here when we
56:4756:47 - paused was um we have this mention of the seven spirits who are Before the Throne and this is here in Revelation
56:5456:54 - chap 1 1 veres 4-6 um of the seven spirits who are before his throne um and so the question was we kind of had a
57:0357:03 - feeling that we recalled other places where we had these sevens come up um they come up in Zechariah Chapter 3
57:1157:11 - Verse n talking about seven eyes on the stone and then in the next chapter as well Zechariah Chapter 4 um several
57:1957:19 - places if we search for the word seven you’ll see that it shows up here um and uh as well you know we just went search
57:2557:25 - so if you’ve never done this before you can actually search for things on ikas specifically using this search parameter
57:3157:31 - you know you limit it to the site specifically and yeah verily there was a email question and answer on this and so
57:3857:38 - um Audi I don’t know if you wna you want to give some conversation before um but ichus does talk about this point you
57:4457:44 - know it talks about uh this passage here Revelation chapter one where we were um it cross references it with Isaiah 11
57:5257:52 - verse 2 um you know here seven the seven old Spirit of the Lord in Isaiah chapter 2 um and then in Revelation chapter 5 as
58:0158:01 - well um yeah um I mean you could actually go to uh
58:0958:09 - ct2b that particular uh discussion he had there because that’s where he went into the discussion but um it suffice to
58:1758:17 - say that the seven spirits are not seven spirits they it’s it’s the Holy Spirit in the seven roles you might say he
58:2958:29 - plays or the seven works that he he does so he has seven Ministries it’s like how do I you could think of it this way that
58:3958:39 - the holy spirit is doing one work one perfect work and in seven different Ministries and Ministry Services as as
58:5158:51 - we know uh he he perfects this this work it brings it to Perfection so the the you would see that Revelation starts
59:0159:01 - with talking about the seven spirits Before the Throne of God and then proceeds in chapters uh the same chapter
59:0859:08 - one it talks about the seven lamb stands and the seven spirits of the seven churches then in chapters 2 and three it
59:1659:16 - talks about the seven churches there’s a reason that it’s talking about things like this it’s referring to the
59:2259:22 - Perfection of a plan that God has that the spirit is working out so this is what the seven spirits of God is really
59:3359:33 - about it’s not that there are seven Holy Spirits we should remember what we’re talking about we’re talking about God
59:4159:41 - and God is the infinite one you don’t need seven of anything of him that’s just the fact so we’re talking about
59:5059:50 - seven things that the spirit does to bring his perfect work to fruition not seven Holy Spirits it’s not a really
59:5959:59 - difficult concept to grasp unless we get often the way Weeds about it it says seven it says seven here and it’s the
01:00:0801:00:08 - only the only place in the Bible where it actually states that explicitly and in fact in some translations you will
01:00:1501:00:15 - see um the thing written as Sevenfold spirit of God we all have a spiritual appreciation a common sense appreciation
01:00:2101:00:21 - of the fact that we’re talking about the Holy Spirit and um as we see from uh Professor Robert’s discussion of this
01:00:2901:00:29 - and I think this uh Q&A he says what I have up here we had up the Q&A here which links to the part of part 2B of
01:00:3901:00:39 - the coming tribulation which we were at here which talks about the seven lamps of fire showing up in Revelation it’s
01:00:4401:00:44 - actually also in uh here let me go let me go back it’s also also in uh part five of the Bible basic series which is
01:00:5401:00:54 - uh the study the the Holy Spirit you’ll see there’s the section of the sevens here seven spirits lamps eyes seals same
01:01:0001:01:00 - thing if we go back to this this is in that section lots of discussion about this
01:01:0601:01:06 - this concept as well so I will probably go ahead and post these links when I post the notes for this week because
01:01:1301:01:13 - these are all good places to look um yeah yeah okay so it’s bottom line we’re not
01:01:2201:01:22 - talking about multiple spirits of God we’re just talking about the um Perfection of the thing that the holy
01:01:2901:01:29 - spirit is doing to realize the plan of God that’s it the reason the seven is in view is because of what John is about to
01:01:3901:01:39 - teach that’s the the point in in Revelation 2 and three we kind of see it because uh the seven churches are
01:01:4801:01:48 - actually seven divides in time of the progression of the church how the church is not really iterating but developing
01:01:5801:01:58 - you could say and in each of these eras so to speak we see the Holy Spirit doing something specific at a specific time in
01:02:0701:02:07 - preparing this Bride for the Lord and remember that the focus of all the work that God is doing before the return of
01:02:1801:02:18 - the Lord Jesus is to replace the angels that rebelled that’s the plan he has and what the holy spirit is doing toward
01:02:2701:02:27 - that is his ministry that’s the work he is doing and it’s captured in this Sevenfold description that we find in
01:02:3501:02:35 - the Bible that’s that’s all there is to it yep I think that’s a good way so that’s where we’ll wrap up this
01:02:4401:02:44 - one so last question here from this initial set of questions we had after going through a lot of the scripture uh
01:02:5201:02:52 - to bolster the point we were making uh was this question kind of about how uh when we say that we are baptized into
01:02:5901:02:59 - the person of the father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and Matthew chapter 28 verse 19 in the Great Commission well
01:03:0601:03:06 - what does that mean exactly how can we be put into the person of God if God is divine and has all these attributes as
01:03:1301:03:13 - we talked about in God’s Essence before um we are not deity we can never be deity not in the way that God is and so
01:03:2101:03:21 - what does it mean for us to become part of the body of Christ Christ um I think let’s start off by uh the wrong way of
01:03:2901:03:29 - looking at things kind of how we were doing with the Trinity here um so there are certain branches of of uh
01:03:3601:03:36 - self-professed Christians who talk about us becoming like God being transformed to be like him there’s this word in uh
01:03:4401:03:44 - particularly Orthodox theology called theosis um you may have heard that um some of this is more or less
01:03:5101:03:51 - objectionable because we are supposed to be transformed formed uh to follow after our our you know Jesus Christ as the
01:03:5801:03:58 - firstborn of the Resurrection we’re supposed to reflect his glory so in a certain manner of speaking yes we’re
01:04:0301:04:03 - going to become like God but not in you know ontological being not in nature um we will only ever be human uh even in
01:04:1201:04:12 - eternity um now uh the book of Hebrews is very clear that uh once humans are resurrected and exalted at least Jesus
01:04:2101:04:21 - as the human Paul goes out of his way well if you take Paul to be the writer of Hebrews which I do U Paul goes out of
01:04:2701:04:27 - his way in Hebrews to show how Jesus is superior to the angels um in the resurrection State um but Jesus Is God
01:04:3501:04:35 - we won’t be God um so I don’t want to ramble um to the the main thrust of this question uh when we are baptized into
01:04:4301:04:43 - the person of the father and the Son and the Holy Spirit we are baptized into the body of Christ we become indwell by the
01:04:5001:04:50 - Holy Spirit um this metaphor for us as as acting as one body gets to the unity of the church it does not mean somehow
01:04:5901:04:59 - that we become I don’t know this sounds super technical but we don’t become like
01:05:0501:05:05 - partakers of the Divine Essence in what some people mean by that um uh by a certain way of description that is what
01:05:1301:05:13 - we do as Christians by communion we are washed clean in the blood of Christ through his body and his blood but not
01:05:2001:05:20 - in the way that people talk about that um you know it’s not like we live upon I don’t know eating the
01:05:2701:05:27 - literal Flesh and Blood of God because people have very wrong ideas about communion and that um so I know I’ve
01:05:3301:05:33 - gone a lot of different directions a you want to pick up any of the the threads I’ve introduced here and go with it yeah
01:05:3801:05:38 - um I think you’ve really hid the nail on the head because when we think about well we’re we’re going to be made one
01:05:4601:05:46 - with God but we’re not going to become deity how does that make sense well think about marriage for
01:05:5101:05:51 - example um we we become one with our spouse and if the Bible says that it doesn’t really matter what anything else
01:05:5901:05:59 - in the world says when you get married you become one with your spouse but the woman does not cease to be a woman and
01:06:0801:06:08 - become a man and the man does not cease to be a man and become a woman we don’t lose our personality we don’t lose our
01:06:1401:06:14 - makeup we just find ourselves in this very and it it doesn’t matter how perfect that relationship is even if it
01:06:2101:06:21 - was Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before the the fall we still see that in that position Eve was Eve and Adam was
01:06:3201:06:32 - Adam even though they were one flesh so it’s the same thing in our relationship with God when we are brought into this
01:06:4101:06:41 - Unity this Oneness with him we don’t become God and we should keep that we should keep in mind that it’s impossible
01:06:4901:06:49 - for anything that is not God to become God it’s it’s impossible plain and simple to be become God because God is
01:06:5601:06:56 - that which is that’s it it it does not become and it did not used to be it is so we will
01:07:0701:07:07 - never become God and God is not never going to be other than God so it’s not like God will become us he’s always
01:07:1601:07:16 - going to be God but the thing is we will enter an a perfect intimate relationship with
01:07:2401:07:24 - him where things that he has he can share very freely and fully with us that’s this is
01:07:3301:07:33 - also where something that I’ve I’ve puzzled over for a little while starts to make sense I I thought for example
01:07:4101:07:41 - how how does one how does this thing that Paul said that in that day we shall know as we ourselves are are known today
01:07:5101:07:51 - we see dimly we see darkly as in the Mir era but then we will know as we ourselves are know when you think about
01:08:0001:08:00 - that this is actually hinting very strongly as at something that sounds very much like omniscience that is crazy
01:08:1001:08:10 - how could we possibly contain that much information but this is and now I don’t want to speculate on what that might
01:08:1801:08:18 - actually mean in terms of how we possess knowledge of that sort but it will be perfect knowledge is what it is it is
01:08:2401:08:24 - actually saying that we possess perfect knowledge but I don’t know if it’s perfect knowledge of all things or
01:08:2901:08:29 - whatever but we will not have the difficulties that we are having today in understanding what God is about and what
01:08:3601:08:36 - where we are headed with the Lord so here’s the question then how do we have that only as a gift from the Lord now
01:08:4501:08:45 - imagine this that um you were adopted into a home they’re very wealthy they have loads of books and they have loads
01:08:5401:08:54 - of cars and all sorts of things it’s all there right now that you’ve been adopted into that home you have rights to all of
01:09:0201:09:02 - that you can pick up anything you want to read you can get in any car and drive you can sit at any table have any meal
01:09:1001:09:10 - you want it’s all yours now you have equal rights to it but it doesn’t mean that you have ceased to be you and
01:09:1801:09:18 - you’ve become the people that adopted you or that the people that adopted you cease to be themselves and became you so
01:09:2501:09:25 - it’s the same way we can look at this that we have been brought into an intimate relationship with the Lord such
01:09:3201:09:32 - that he shares himself with us without losing himself or us becoming something other than what we are you know I think
01:09:4101:09:41 - I think maybe the best way to get to this and this is kind of what I was trying to put my finger on when I
01:09:4601:09:46 - started was that it’s it’s a metaphor it’s not literal um and and I mean I’m laughing a bit here because this is the
01:09:5401:09:54 - same problem that people have with the communion passage in John chapter 6 about eating the flesh and blood of
01:10:0001:10:00 - Christ and they say well you see the Bible says is so therefore it must be somehow that we are consuming the
01:10:0601:10:06 - essence of God or whatever you know which we we think is complete nonsense right we are memorialists it’s a
01:10:1101:10:11 - metaphor well so to is us being the body of Christ we are not literally ontologically speaking the body of
01:10:1801:10:18 - Christ whatever but like where people get wrong is by that’s a
01:10:2701:10:27 - metaphor it’s what it’s supposed to be we are the you know we are the bride of Christ we’re also the body of Christ
01:10:3301:10:33 - these things are metaphors right um marriage is supposed to teach us about sub uh uh submitting to Christ you know
01:10:4001:10:40 - that that is a direct analogy it’s one of the reasons why the Bible uses this metaphor it’s is very helpful in
01:10:4501:10:45 - structuring our understanding but fundamentally it is a metaphor we are not ontologically speaking the body of
01:10:5101:10:51 - Christ whatever that would mean um the fact that some people go there well I mean they’re missing the point that it’s
01:10:5901:10:59 - not it’s not a technical description of God’s existence his being that we’re talking about here it’s how we function
01:11:0701:11:07 - with that Unity what our relationship to God is um collectively as a group is as a wife properly submits herself to her
01:11:1501:11:15 - husband in marriage and the husband uh that is Jesus in this analogy uh you know loves his wife in a
01:11:2101:11:21 - self-sacrificing way it’s supposed to teach us something right but it has nothing to do with about like God’s
01:11:2701:11:27 - being or us somehow becoming one with God’s essence or whatever else people kind of like get up to be right I mean I
01:11:3701:11:37 - will add I will add this to that that um today we understand that we we want as children of God as Christians
01:11:4801:11:48 - those who believe in Jesus Christ to be instruments of God’s will that’s literally what we want
01:11:5401:11:54 - to be Servants of his will and if he wants things done this way or that that’s what we want to do now if we
01:12:0201:12:02 - appreciate what that means that is precisely what it means to be the body of Christ we are agents of his will now
01:12:1101:12:11 - in in the in eternity when we have Resurrection bodies and God has filled all things just as Colossians says the
01:12:2101:12:21 - idea here is that we are in such perfect harmony with God that what we want is aligned with what he wants so that the
01:12:3201:12:32 - actions we carry out the interactions we get involved with the way we treat the universe in which we live is an
01:12:4001:12:40 - expression of himself so we are not him but we become like
01:12:4801:12:48 - um not just you could think of conscious tools you could you could think think of AI or but AI is a very bad analogy for
01:12:5701:12:57 - this well not a bad analogy it’s a good analogy but still it has limits the idea here is that we are conscious creatures
01:13:0501:13:05 - who are very happy being in ourselves the means of carrying out God’s will in the creation
01:13:1601:13:16 - that he makes that’s what we are trying to do today in our spiritual growth we’re learning to align ourselves with
01:13:2201:13:22 - the Lord and walk diligently with him every day that’s why the Bible talks about our our
01:13:2901:13:29 - being changed in the way we think so that we become like the Lord in the way we think so that he does not have to
01:13:3601:13:36 - dictate to us as external things for himself but rather that because we are in such close um connection to him the
01:13:4601:13:46 - way he thinks and the way we think are the same so what we want to do is what he wants done and we we become we become
01:13:5501:13:55 - the conduits the means through which he exercises his will in the creation that he made so this again leads us back to
01:14:0401:14:04 - what Jesus said that he will be in us and we will be in him that’s the idea this this very tight connection of
01:14:1301:14:13 - Hearts is essentially what this is how Moses and I mean there was a relationship between Moses and Aaron but
01:14:2101:14:21 - uh just going to to Moses Moses was to do what God Said and he did until yeah did until he didn’t and so that’s the
01:14:2901:14:29 - that’s the body what you’re talking about what Moses was doing in obedience and what Jesus actually was doing in
01:14:3601:14:36 - obedience is the body we we need to be no okay yeah exactly now Jesus in his kosis I would say that is a good way to
01:14:4601:14:46 - look at it um in his divine nature he was always completely United with the father in essence but in his kosis
01:14:5301:14:53 - Jesus submitting himself perfectly to the father’s will is exactly the unity that we’re getting at here um I also say
01:15:0101:15:01 - one other point if we are getting hot and bothered about this idea of uh you know us being united with the Divine
01:15:0801:15:08 - Essence of God well what about the taking it the other way you know this is perhaps an easier more falsifiable thing
01:15:1501:15:15 - if we say that we are one body meaning that we are all perfectly United with each other well like just look around a
01:15:2301:15:23 - little bit and you’ll see that what some people seem to mean by that can’t be true right um yeah because if if we take
01:15:3201:15:32 - this thing as we collectively as a church are the body of Christ whatever whenever people get into making more out
01:15:3901:15:39 - of that than the metaphor it is well in as much as we are one with Christ in that we are also one with each other and
01:15:4601:15:46 - if you just look around I mean sure we as Christians are supposed to be more united than many other people in the
01:15:5201:15:52 - world that is a trademark characteristic of the church when it is functioning properly but it is not whatever those
01:15:5801:15:58 - people mean right um so that’s very true very true that’s a very good test yeah all right well I think that’s
01:16:0801:16:08 - a good place to leave this um when we are baptized spiritually into the body of Christ you know not the ritual of
01:16:1501:16:15 - water baptism but the the meaning of spiritual baptism such that in Romans 8:9 it says that anyone who does not
01:16:2101:16:21 - have the spirit is not of God um what we are getting at is that we are made spiritually alive we have that
01:16:2801:16:28 - connection that the close relationship with God such that we submit to him and we respect his will and he loves us in
01:16:3601:16:36 - that self-sacrificing love uh that Jesus laid down his life for us but we have that tightness of connection and also
01:16:4301:16:43 - that Unity with one another in the church all submitting ourselves to Christ that is what we’re getting at for
01:16:5001:16:50 - us to be part of the body of Christ um not that we are somehow you know like becoming God or um
01:16:5801:16:58 - you know like linked to God in our being or whatever um you know past what it means for all of us to be created and
01:17:0501:17:05 - dependent upon God for existence but um it it’s just that idea of the unity we have with one another and with God
01:17:1201:17:12 - through our submission um right all right well I think that’s probably where we’ll leave this one um
01:17:2101:17:21 - good questions good discussion here on um clarifying some of the concepts that have come out in these passages as we
01:17:2801:17:28 - discuss the Trinity so having spent some time talking through some of the questions we
01:17:3701:17:37 - had after going through initial passages talking about how all the members of the Trinity are deity now we’re going to
01:17:4301:17:43 - turn and look at some specific passages for each member of the godhead so first we’re going to start with the father um
01:17:5101:17:51 - so uh obviously the point of uh this particular lesson that we’re going through is that all three members of the
01:17:5701:17:57 - Trinity are deity all of them are Divine they are all God and so starting with the father uh we’re going to look at
01:18:0401:18:04 - some passages uh that kind of establish the Divinity of the father then the Divinity of the Son and the Divinity of
01:18:1001:18:10 - the Holy Spirit I’m just to bolster that point that all three members of the Trinity are God so we’ll start here in
01:18:1901:18:19 - Matthew chapter 9 or sorry Matthew chapter 6 verse 99 um which says uh this is uh Jesus in The Lord’s Prayer
01:18:2601:18:26 - teaching us how to pray says Our Father who is in heaven Hallowed be your name um should be pretty familiar to most
01:18:3201:18:32 - Christians I’d think but the point here is that God the father is in heaven he is God right um because beings in heaven
01:18:4101:18:41 - I mean I suppose we’d say angels are in heaven too but very clearly this is an indirect support for the father being
01:18:4801:18:48 - Divine um the father being God uh so a do you have much to say there I mean I think that one is pretty straightforward
01:18:5501:18:55 - honestly um yeah like you said pretty straightforward um I think the key thing is our father yeah he is in heaven um so
01:19:0401:19:04 - are the Angels but our father and then the next thing is May your name be holy yeah or May the Holiness of your name be
01:19:1301:19:13 - preserved or something of that sort and that is particularly speaking to the uniqueness of his person right now we’ve
01:19:2201:19:22 - talked about this the last couple times but when we talk about God’s name the Holy Name Of God you know as in Exodus
01:19:2801:19:28 - chapter 3 that completely gets to God as deity AI has I think done a good job explaining this uh several times we’ve
01:19:3701:19:37 - talked about it is that God is existence right is the very thing that makes him God is that quality of isness and that’s
01:19:4601:19:46 - the name we’re saying is Holy right uh God’s God’s name God’s existence as the being that simply is um so in terms of
01:19:5501:19:55 - the characteristic or quality of deity we might say um that is in fact entirely what is in view
01:20:0201:20:02 - here yeah we we we should keep in mind too that hot speaks to the fact
01:20:1001:20:10 - that God’s name is unique that is Holiness is speaking to separateness being aart being not like other
01:20:1901:20:19 - things so this is acknowledgement of the deity of the father yep all right next verse
01:20:2701:20:27 - here that Dr lugan bille uses is in 1 Corinthians chapter 8 verse 6 says yet for us there is but one God comma the
01:20:3601:20:36 - father comma from whom all things and for from whom are all things and we exist for him and one Lord Jesus Christ
01:20:4501:20:45 - by whom are all things and we exist through him um so this is what is in grammar known as apposition um this this
01:20:5301:20:53 - this phrase with commas kind of uh giving another way of re restating the thing that comes directly before it um
01:21:0101:21:01 - so there is but one God the Father you know from whom all things are made like I you literally cannot make this verse
01:21:0901:21:09 - say anything other than the father is god um it’s what the verse directly says um this is I I should I should interject
01:21:1901:21:19 - here that of all of the members of the Trinity I think the father is the easiest to support as being God right no
01:21:2501:21:25 - one ever thinks the father isn’t god um most heresies in fact I can think of off the top of my head in the past we went
01:21:3201:21:32 - through several adoptionism for example or aryanism most of them deal with members
01:21:3701:21:37 - of the Trinity that aren’t the father I I can’t think of too many heresies off the top of my head where somehow people
01:21:4301:21:43 - think the father isn’t god um but nonetheless we’re just going through dotting our eyes crossing our tees this
01:21:5001:21:50 - is another Bible verse and I’m sure there’s others besides the ones that we’re going through that clearly
01:21:5601:21:56 - supports the idea of God the father being deity of being Divine anything to say there Audie or shall we just go
01:22:0401:22:04 - ahead and go on to the next one yeah nothing much to say either I think what you said is exactly right I don’t think
01:22:1101:22:11 - there’s there’s ever a question whether the father is God I mean you could say the father is Jesus you could say the
01:22:1801:22:18 - father is the Holy Spirit you could say the father is the god from whom whom the Holy Spirit and Jesus proceed a lot of
01:22:2601:22:26 - things have been said but I don’t know of anyone who has a question about whether the Bible teaches the father is
01:22:3201:22:32 - God it’s pretty straightforward so so like you said dotting eyes Crossing teas yeah we just say here are the places
01:22:4001:22:40 - that the Bible says the father is god well so I I remember we we made this point um introducing this uh Dr lugan
01:22:4901:22:49 - Bill stated and I agreed with him that the trinity is obvious from the Bible right um we spent some time and breath
01:22:5601:22:56 - discussing how it didn’t just come about in the thir Century you know 325 Ad Council of NAA this wasn’t like the
01:23:0301:23:03 - first time that people had like understood the Trinity from scripture um it’s right there it’s in the text it’s
01:23:0901:23:09 - the common sense understanding of of how God is discussed in the New Testament and so what we’re doing here is showing
01:23:1701:23:17 - you well here’s where you get it right these are some of those passages by which the early believers would have
01:23:2201:23:22 - understood that God is Triune in nature right from the text of the Bible uh we don’t need tradition or church councils
01:23:2901:23:29 - to get this point because the Bible itself teaches it um that just is an important thing for us to keep
01:23:3501:23:35 - emphasizing as we go here is that we believe the Trinity not because a council of old men sat and voted about
01:23:4201:23:42 - it but because the Bible teaches it um now a lot of people probably wouldn’t say they believe it because of the
01:23:4901:23:49 - church councils but I don’t know um we just need to be very careful in how we uh uh basically justify our belief in
01:23:5801:23:58 - things because we know that the only true basis for our belief as Christians is scripture itself so-called solos
01:24:0501:24:05 - scriptura right that’s a pretty fundamental Canon for us as Evangelical Protestants you know those are the
01:24:1001:24:10 - labels that people would apply to us um and that’s why we’re kind of emphasizing this point so all that said uh next one
01:24:1901:24:19 - here in Ephesians chapter 3 um so eans come on I’ll click on the more link Ephesians
01:24:2701:24:27 - chapter 3: 14- 15 um so says for this reason I bow my knees before the father from whom every family in heaven and on
01:24:3601:24:36 - Earth deres its name um so you know another pretty clear straightforward um how could every
01:24:4501:24:45 - family in heaven on Earth derive their name if the father wasn’t God it just would not make sense um this one might
01:24:5101:24:51 - be helpful to get a little bit more context to see what is in view here in Ephesians chapter 3 um so it’s Paul
01:25:0001:25:00 - beginning a prayer here um praying for the Ephesians the church in Ephesus um so uh this isn’t quite I don’t think
01:25:1101:25:11 - title is quite the right word it is a um uh Paul Paul using this phrase here um as a a description a qualifier of who
01:25:2301:25:23 - we’re talking about who God is and particularly how that affects us as humans here um so this isn’t the only
01:25:3001:25:30 - place in scripture where this comes up um reasonably common actually you know for Paul or one of the other Apostles
01:25:3601:25:36 - you know Peter John writing to be you know God uh who has done this for us or who has affected these things um that
01:25:4501:25:45 - God that’s the one we’re talking about actually I think pretty commonly comes up as God uh the god of your father’s
01:25:5101:25:51 - Abraham and Isaac and Jacob right you know that kind of set aside this is the god this is the being we’re talking
01:25:5801:25:58 - about that sort of thing but here just inferential evidence again that the father whom we are talking
01:26:0601:26:06 - about is most certainly god um I mean if if all the family in Heaven and Earth derives its name from him you
01:26:1501:26:15 - know how we have family names that’s to speak to his authority over Heaven and Earth so
01:26:2301:26:23 - that is pretty I mean it might not seem immediately apparent to people who are looking
01:26:3001:26:30 - for things to quarrel about but it’s a pretty straightforward statement if if all the family in Heaven and Earth is
01:26:3801:26:38 - deriving its name from the father then the father is the head of all this family yeah and that position is God’s
01:26:4801:26:48 - position now I will say that the English words father and family don’t seem that related right um but uh you know Lis had
01:26:5601:26:56 - mentioned this earlier when we were talking before the recording today well that is an English problem so to speak
01:27:0301:27:03 - um in Latin and Greek actually at least those are languages I’m familiar with family is intrinsically tied to the word
01:27:0901:27:09 - for father so um you know Latin P Patria right um this is what we speak these things are dead related to
01:27:1901:27:19 - each other in the text it’s right there um so if hit stronger in Latin and Greek is what I’m saying um this connection
01:27:2601:27:26 - between God the father and us as his family the family is the members belonging to the father so to speak
01:27:3301:27:33 - right that’s how it works biblically in the biblical understanding of family and when we say that God is our father the F
01:27:4101:27:41 - the family doesn’t exist apart from the father I mean I don’t want to get into like philosophy or whatever but you know
01:27:4601:27:46 - like that is the connection we have to God the Father um it’s pretty strong is what I’m saying
01:27:5201:27:52 - um can you address can you address the name part of this deres its name aie you want to you want to take that or oh yeah
01:28:0201:28:02 - okay okay um like I said it’s like having a family name um most families are identified somehow like I come from
01:28:1101:28:11 - the AR wo family in fact I come from the Isaac Car World of family so my family deres its name from my
01:28:2101:28:21 - father the larger Clan deres its name from um our patriarch uh like my grandfather and
01:28:3101:28:31 - then we have the Uki Clan which is my great-grandfather and so on and so forth so when we talk about the the derivation
01:28:4101:28:41 - of a name we’re saying who is it by whose identity a family is known that is the
01:28:4901:28:49 - head of the home the head of the clan and um that is that is God in this in this
01:28:5801:28:58 - sense we are Christians that’s what the world calls us or called us back in the days of uh Paul in
01:29:0701:29:07 - Antioch but you could call us Believers you could call us followers of Christ you could call us followers of the way
01:29:1501:29:15 - you call us whatever you will but in the end you’re saying we belong to God’s family and that is true of the angels as
01:29:2401:29:24 - well and of those who have gone before us so that identity that we possess as members of that family derives from the
01:29:3501:29:35 - father and that is actually an argument or a statement of you know presupposed fact it’s like well that’s obvious since
01:29:4501:29:45 - he is God I mean I think this gets back to what philosophers would call the uncaused cause or the prime mover you
01:29:5401:29:54 - want to use that word from philosophy you know people get their names from somewhere right and if you think of the
01:30:0201:30:02 - human uh the the tree of humanity you know starting with Adam and Eve throughout history um families derive
01:30:1001:30:10 - from you know an initial starting point again after the flood um where Noah and his family survived and repopulated the
01:30:1701:30:17 - Earth well even all of those people didn’t come from nowhere they came from God
01:30:2201:30:22 - all of existence um and I I mean I don’t want to stretch it right this passage is clearly talking about the idea of family
01:30:3101:30:31 - what does that mean for us to be the family of God right we are not literally like I I don’t you know like how uh for
01:30:3901:30:39 - example like baby deer are still deer right well even though we are God’s children we are not like baby Gods so to
01:30:4601:30:46 - speak um we we are in some ways you know we have the image of God we have choice we are Godlike in our Capac to choose
01:30:5301:30:53 - but we are not like God in nature um we spent a long time um in kind of the first core part of this series talking
01:31:0001:31:00 - about how God is completely separate from everything in creation um but where I’m going with this is that God is the
01:31:0701:31:07 - one being who doesn’t himself have a father so to speak right the one being from whom all of the other families
01:31:1501:31:15 - derve um it’s the uncaused cause now one thing I wanted to mention here I I I have a a family twist on this as well um
01:31:2201:31:22 - so you’ve probably heard of last names like Johnson or Jacobson right in my own family I have a lot of relatives from
01:31:2901:31:29 - Norway there is a group of folks on my dad’s side who still live in rural Illinois and they are the spencon and so
01:31:3701:31:37 - there was someone in my family history named Sven and then his family were Sven and his sons the sons of Sven Svenson um
01:31:4601:31:46 - and so I don’t know I I I find it funny because I know it’s like my great great grandfather or something his named Sven
01:31:5201:31:52 - spencon um anyway um that is an example here of the family name being derived from uh uh sort of the the leader of the
01:32:0201:32:02 - family um I was that is that helpful Lisa um did we kind of get to the core of what
01:32:0801:32:08 - you’re asking like why your names coming up here um yeah no I guess I’m still a little fuzzy because it’s every family
01:32:1401:32:14 - it’s not just the Believers it’s every right in heaven and in Earth and now the the Heavenly they don’t marry so they
01:32:2101:32:21 - don’t have like cousins and brothers and sisters I would be right I mean we we there’s a lot we
01:32:3101:32:31 - don’t know about for example how angels are organized um so we know that there are clans of angels um you know the 24
01:32:3701:32:37 - Elders Before the Throne um Aus talks about in its Systematic Theology part 2A of angels talks about the Angelic
01:32:4401:32:44 - hierarchies and stuff um this verse like not to I I I don’t think we need to go all that far down in the week reads
01:32:5201:32:52 - there um the verse is getting at that all groups of organizations right everything that we would call a family
01:32:5901:32:59 - and of course we have a human idea of what that means but all organizations derive back to God um he
01:33:0701:33:07 - is the one in whom everything exists everything has been created um I get that with the uh Authority structures
01:33:1601:33:16 - that he set up you know I think it’s Romans that tells us to obey authorities so I can see that that is also implied
01:33:2201:33:22 - here yeah I think I think that um this passage is actually speaking Yeah I I don’t like how the NIV puts it because
01:33:3401:33:34 - um well could you could you take a look at the Greek and tell me what it says exactly please sure let me let me first
01:33:4101:33:41 - I’ll pull up a different translation so this is nasb here says from whom every family in heaven and on Earth derives
01:33:4901:33:49 - its name I I kind of what I’m curious about is what this word is um so we are looking at Ephesians 3 verse
01:33:5701:33:57 - 15 Ephesians 35 this is uh site that easily lets you pull up intral linear there are multiple sites
01:34:0601:34:06 - um Blue Letter Bible is one free online site that quickly lets you pull up an Interlinear or reverse Interlinear here
01:34:1401:34:14 - so we are looking at this verse here so starting here this is in heaven or actually it’s in the heavens plural
01:34:2301:34:23 - stative plural and upon the Earth Earth singular um interestingly article here this
01:34:3201:34:32 - word I’m more interested in the every family part okay
01:34:3901:34:39 - so this right here that’s the every family um Passa is uh adjective here for all and Patria this is a singular noun
01:34:5101:34:51 - meaning family so from whom this is this is the relative this is the relative Clause from whom every family in the
01:35:0101:35:01 - heavens and upon the Earth and then here’s the verb um if if I wanted to say all the
01:35:1101:35:11 - family right if I wanted to say all the family in Greek how would I say it so okay this this word here pass pass upon
01:35:2201:35:22 - this is the adjective in Greek it can mean all or it can mean every depending on context here let me pull the
01:35:2901:35:29 - adjective um so individually um each every any all um so okay that’s precisely why I wanted
01:35:3601:35:36 - to find out because I don’t like those translations now I think it is defensible uh you know not to get too
01:35:4201:35:42 - far off in the interpretive weeds here it is defensible to translate this because it is family singular right it
01:35:4801:35:48 - depends if you distribute this adjective or not um you do you make it each or every or do you make it all or the whole
01:35:5501:35:55 - because if you were to translate this verse here as from whom the whole family in heaven and on Earth
01:36:0201:36:02 - drives I I actually I see where you’re going with this and I think that is probably the better translation there is
01:36:0801:36:08 - one single family of God right yeah and it’s not it’s not every every family on Earth there is just one family is it’s
01:36:1701:36:17 - the family of see nasby actually footnotes it here um the whole um so if you take it in a Distributive
01:36:2301:36:23 - sense it’s every if you take it in a uh you know emphasis of the unity sense it’s the whole um and this is why side
01:36:3101:36:31 - tangent not to get you off the weed this is why translation is tricky business right both of those things are valid
01:36:3901:36:39 - meanings for that word in Greek which one is meant well that is up for you as the
01:36:4501:36:45 - translator now this is why um there is a pretty famous quote from a guy named I think it’s tacitus in Latin basically
01:36:5301:36:53 - the translates to English is all translators are traitors um in English we don’t have a word that can mean both
01:37:0201:37:02 - every or the whole like the same word means both we don’t have a word that has that connotation both of them so we have
01:37:0801:37:08 - to pick one in English you don’t have to pick one in Greek because the same word means both things
01:37:1601:37:16 - um go ahead you were gonna say something oh yeah uh I think you’re make very solid Arguments for the idea that
01:37:2501:37:25 - um there are multiple uh meanings being held together in that one word so it doesn’t have to
01:37:3201:37:32 - be an either or the reason I actually come down pretty strongly on the um the whole or the all the uh family um
01:37:4301:37:43 - interpretation is that um this is where we get yet another
01:37:5201:37:52 - uh insight into what God is trying is doing what God is accomplishing in creation there’s
01:38:0001:38:00 - a family that he wants it’s his family and as we saw right from Genesis most people wanted their own identity
01:38:0901:38:09 - separate from him and that of course is what led him to or what led to the creation of Israel as a nation and we
01:38:1901:38:19 - know that Israel is the church and the church is Israel and ultimately we are going to be sorted into the family that
01:38:2601:38:26 - is Israel you know and so on and so forth so when Paul says this he is speaking to the God of all believers in
01:38:3601:38:36 - Jesus Christ essentially pointing out that it’s both the angels and believing humans who belong to this family who
01:38:4701:38:47 - derive their name that is their identity from this father so he’s speaking it’s it’s kind of again it’s not like he’s
01:38:5801:38:58 - arguing for this is uh this is how the father is God it’s more like he’s he’s making a forgone conclusion man he’s
01:39:0501:39:05 - obviously God because after all the the the whole family of Believers which is the point of all of creature history
01:39:1501:39:15 - right derives from him so I I agree you know I I don’t think anything we were saying before was
01:39:2201:39:22 - wrong but I would translate this if I pick one in Translation and footnote the other one see that nasb here translated
01:39:3001:39:30 - is every and footnoted the whole I would translate the whole and footnote every um that’s how I would do it because it
01:39:3601:39:36 - makes a lot clearer that point that Audi just made that we’re talking about the the definite article family of God which
01:39:4501:39:45 - is composed of both humans and Angels uh the elect you’ll hear scripture use that word as well people who chose for god um
01:39:5301:39:53 - in who we have our identity um we derive our name we derive our identity from being part of that family the Eternal
01:40:0301:40:03 - family self- selecting for god um so I really would rather we not go ahead I like it thank you you got it okay yeah
01:40:1401:40:14 - uh let’s go back to the passages we’re talking about um so that we say at least mostly on topic here um so um we here
01:40:2501:40:25 - have now covered several passages supporting um the oops wrong side of slides here supporting the Divinity of
01:40:3201:40:32 - God the father and like Audi said um you know we did a tangent a little bit there it was a good question I’m not
01:40:3801:40:38 - discouraging questions um but the reason why we were talking about this verse um uh aie said something to the fact that
01:40:4501:40:45 - Paul wasn’t using this particular thing as an argument to prove God’s deity like that’s not the point of this passage
01:40:5201:40:52 - this is completely a tangential aside I mentioned it’s kind of similar how uh people when referencing God will
01:40:5801:40:58 - reference you know God the the father of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob it’s like that it’s just in a side of this is the
01:41:0601:41:06 - God we serve and this God we serve is from whom the whole family of God deres its name um it’s just that’s who we’re
01:41:1401:41:14 - talking about here so Paul very much takes it for granted that the father is Divine and eternal and you know the the
01:41:2401:41:24 - person from whom we all self-organize into the family of God like it’s just it’s he’s not proving it he’s not
01:41:3101:41:31 - arguing for it it’s just taking as brute fact um that was ai’s point and I think that is the right way to look at this
01:41:3701:41:37 - passage all right any closing thoughts here on this idea of God the father being god um not
01:41:4601:41:46 - really I think I think you satisfied the point in the the discussion quite well and to be very clear like we said this
01:41:5401:41:54 - is the easy one so to speak um people throughout history do not get tripped up by thinking that somehow God the father
01:42:0101:42:01 - is not God um or that he’s not deity he’s not Divine um it’s the other members of the Trinity which have had
01:42:0801:42:08 - more heresy traditionally in trinitarian theology so we will now turn to talk about the sun next and then we’ll get to
01:42:1501:42:15 - the Holy Spirit after that next we’re going to be talking about the Divinity of the Sun so the
01:42:2401:42:24 - second member of the Trinity here and just like the first one going to go ahead and be uh reading uh some verses
01:42:3101:42:31 - here to support this um one uh passage that really comes to mind you see this is the uh the verse used uh you know
01:42:3801:42:38 - kind of on the slide itself or in the in the study itself is in John chapter 1 uh the word becoming flesh and dwelling
01:42:4501:42:45 - Among Us the Incarnation of the word the Divine logos who we know is the son um because through him all things were made
01:42:5401:42:54 - going back here looking at this um uh this passage from 1 Corinthians chapter 8 that we just talked about you know
01:43:0101:43:01 - where this passage does say very clearly that the father is God you know just says it straight out but also talks
01:43:0701:43:07 - about how um in you know by whom are all things all things were made through him you’ll see that used other places in
01:43:1501:43:15 - scripture well that’s what John chapter 1 says the Gospel of John the very beginning part of the go goel of John
01:43:2101:43:21 - says that the world was made through him second member of the Trinity the agent Jesus Christ um he is the Divine log us
01:43:2901:43:29 - he is the word this same one was present with the father in the beginning or was present with God in the beginning
01:43:3601:43:36 - talking about God the Father Here in context of this passage now of course there are people who they don’t
01:43:4301:43:43 - translate this passage correctly right we got into a little bit about translation in our previous discussion
01:43:4901:43:49 - just now about how um you know different words in Greek maybe we don’t have an exact English
01:43:5501:43:55 - equivalent for the word and so you have to pick translating it one way or the other way well commonly in this
01:44:0001:44:00 - particular passage in John chapter 1 uh there’s this thing called a definite article which is where we put the God so
01:44:0601:44:06 - people will say Jesus is not God as in the god definite article he is a God uh group of people who does this is the
01:44:1301:44:13 - Jehovah’s Witnesses or jws well so happens that I’m not going to get into the the specifics of GR
01:44:2101:44:21 - but obviously we’re talking about God the Father here um in context um they are a group of people who don’t think
01:44:2901:44:29 - that but they like their interpretation of this passage is heavily colored by presupposing that somehow Jesus isn’t
01:44:3501:44:35 - God this is not the only place in the Bible too um so log rambley preface aside this passage here in John chapter
01:44:4101:44:41 - 1 this is the second person of the Trinity this is who we are talking about uh through him was the world made right
01:44:4901:44:49 - I mean he was God in his own right you know obviously this translation we have up on the screen this comes from ichus
01:44:5501:44:55 - what you see in Brackets is not present in the original Greek these are words or phrases that Dr lugan bill has added
01:45:0201:45:02 - that he views as implied and this is clarifying the meaning of this passage now if you read these verses with the
01:45:0801:45:08 - added bits the things in Brackets it becomes very very clear what the text is saying um if you read the Greek without
01:45:1401:45:14 - this or the English which comes from the Greek without this it’s not maybe quite as clear but
01:45:2001:45:20 - this is what the text means when we interpret it properly so some of those other passages this is why I say it
01:45:2601:45:26 - doesn’t rest upon this one alone that talk about Jesus being god um we’ll start with uh John 5 Verse 18 here um so
01:45:3901:45:39 - this is a pretty clear assertion in the gospels in John chapter 5 the Jews were seeking to kill him because he was not
01:45:4701:45:47 - only breaking the Sabbath but was also calling God his own father making himself equal with
01:45:5301:45:53 - God now this is a report but people were seeking to kill him because Jesus was claiming God as his own father making
01:46:0301:46:03 - himself equal to God now if you read the words in the gospels you see this too but you know uh it’s what Jesus claimed
01:46:1201:46:12 - um with his own mouth and uh just as an aside from a argument for probability Jesus wouldn’t be making this argument
01:46:2001:46:20 - wouldn’t be putting himself equal to the father I don’t know to like gain followers or something um you know so if
01:46:2601:46:26 - you think about where’s the motive in it if Jesus were lying about this he got crucified essentially
01:46:3401:46:34 - because of this because he claimed to be the Son of God remember a you uh pilate put up on the gravestone you know here
01:46:4001:46:40 - lies the king of the Jews and the Pharisees got really angry and they said no he’s not he says he’s the king of the
01:46:4601:46:46 - Jews right um well this gets to that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God he claimed that you know he and the father
01:46:5401:46:54 - were one that’s another verse that we’ll get to and it made no sense for him to claim that unless he actually was
01:47:0101:47:01 - because if he was trying to claim that to get money or power or fame what it got him instead was it got him crucified
01:47:0801:47:08 - so that is not a good argument um anything to say here on this point aie um this passage in John 5 and just
01:47:1601:47:16 - generally speaking Jesus claiming to be the Son of God and equal to the father just in his words and the gospels
01:47:2301:47:23 - generally yeah this is this is actually a passage that uh most people I have run into who have debated uh me on the
01:47:3301:47:33 - matter seem to have issues believing I mean how is claiming to be the Son of God making
01:47:4201:47:42 - himself equal to God is is a person equal to his father simply because he is his father’s son but
01:47:5101:47:51 - but the point here is that the two are of a kind and then you think again about how how prophecy
01:48:0201:48:02 - Works they knew that what he was saying was that he had come from God so that meant that he was
01:48:1501:48:15 - essentially claiming to be the Savior who was I I don’t think I remember the passage well it’s in Isaiah
01:48:2401:48:24 - where he said I am God your savior your only savior something of that sort I’ll try to remember it but my brain is
01:48:3101:48:31 - glitching a bit so the idea here is if he was from God he was the Christ and the Christ was weird he was not a normal
01:48:4201:48:42 - person by their estimation that was why um the disciples I believe it was Peter who said it uh said uh well we know that
01:48:5201:48:52 - when the Christ comes oh maybe it wasn’t the disciples when the Christ comes he will remain forever that is he will
01:48:5801:48:58 - continue forever because he’s not supposed to die he’s he’s not like the rest of us who who are subject to death
01:49:0601:49:06 - they didn’t see death happening to the to the Christ the Messiah because he had to be God or something very like God and
01:49:1601:49:16 - now Jesus was claiming to be from God that’s the idea of being the Son of God he Pro he came from God just like a a
01:49:2501:49:25 - man would come from his father right well and it helps to appreciate uh the term that Dr Lugo commonly uses for this
01:49:3301:49:33 - is prophetic foreshortening the idea is the perspective like artists might have this if you have a mountain range you
01:49:4101:49:41 - only see the first mountain in the range you can’t see the ones behind it right this getting to the suffering servants
01:49:4801:49:48 - versus the Conquering King thing all of the people at the time when Jesus came were waiting for the king to come
01:49:5401:49:54 - in and kick out the Romans but instead they got the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 and so you may hear this kind of
01:50:0201:50:02 - poetically phrase stumbling over the cross when reaching for the crown right um for the Jews they didn’t want their
01:50:1001:50:10 - Messiah to get crucified they wanted their Messiah to go beat the Romans right um sorry I don’t want to get off
01:50:1601:50:16 - on a tangent but it’s very interesting point of Prophecy here um and it does characterize what Jesus was claiming um
01:50:2401:50:24 - like Audi was saying he was claiming to be the Messiah the Christ and exactly what the Jews of the first century
01:50:3001:50:30 - understood that claim to mean we are you have to understand we are culturally removed from this as well right um we
01:50:3801:50:38 - aren’t under the oppression of Rome for one thing but we are also not culturally Jewish we didn’t grow up hearing you
01:50:4601:50:46 - know stories read about the Messiah as you know the the person come to rescue our people
01:50:5301:50:53 - specifically um this is one of the things that will make the regathering of Israel so powerful during the end times
01:51:0001:51:00 - is that the the witnesses the 144,000 the Revelation mentioned are for God’s family for Israel eological Israel we
01:51:0801:51:08 - are God’s family now as Believers you know Israel and the church are one like Audi said Romans chapter 11 for example
01:51:1401:51:14 - um but it is strong stuff what Jesus was claiming when he said he was the Messiah um
01:51:2001:51:20 - and you know so that point that aie made here about how is claiming that God is his father making himself equal to God
01:51:2701:51:27 - it is as AI said it’s because he’s saying this is where I am from um God sent me um that is the claim here uh you
01:51:3701:51:37 - know and actually it’s interestingly um you may hear this phrase in the New Testament kind of like um you know is is
01:51:4301:51:43 - he of God or is he of his father the devil you know the uh Pharisees would say he was doing his Signs by the power
01:51:5201:51:52 - of Satan right um you know let me actually I I don’t I I’m trying to think of the verse right off the top about his
01:51:5901:51:59 - father there’s a very specific verse I’m thinking of um so this is Jesus talking about how Satan is a liar and the father
01:52:0701:52:07 - of Lies devil um let’s John 8:44 I I’m thinking of it people
01:52:1601:52:16 - accusing Jesus of having his power come from sat um do you know what I’m talking about
01:52:2201:52:22 - aie um or am I just yeah I do um yeah um he Stephen is it is it the one where um Jesus replies to them that Satan can’t
01:52:3501:52:35 - drive out Satan is that right right right right right well that’s not quite I want that
01:52:4501:52:45 - context here let’s try Matthew 12 so it’s Matthew 122 27 or Luke 11:15 also Mark 3 yeah 2 to 27 I believe
01:53:0001:53:00 - yeah so yeah okay maybe maybe it doesn’t have the word father there I thought it did um by Prince demons
01:53:1101:53:11 - but you know like the idea being that if Jesus were sent from Satan he would be employing Satan’s power he’d be an agent
01:53:1701:53:17 - of Satan more or less and this is the opposite of who Jesus actually is right but it was kind of it was kind of
01:53:2601:53:26 - driving home the point that to the interlocutors being sent by the person being an emissary um you know this is
01:53:3401:53:34 - another thing that boy we just have a hard time with the language here in English in our culture um you know in
01:53:4001:53:40 - the Gospel of John how how you have all this stuff about Witnesses and Jesus goes on and on about how he was sent and
01:53:4801:53:48 - the one who sent him do you know what I’m talking about and like it seems kind of strange to us reading this in English
01:53:5401:53:54 - like why is he why is he saying this why is he emphasizing this point and the reason why he is is because of what that
01:54:0101:54:01 - claim means um so in English we’d be like you know if I I don’t know like let’s say I have a you know like a a
01:54:1001:54:10 - young boy who’s running an errand for me you know I gave him money I say hey go buy me bread and milk at the grocery
01:54:1401:54:14 - store or something right he’s been sent by me that is not the sense that Jesus means when he’s sent by the father
01:54:2201:54:22 - right he’s not he’s not like an errand boy he is an emissary the very boy you know like best I I can’t think of
01:54:2901:54:29 - putting it better than Hebrews chapter one right um God’s you know like in these last days he’s spoken to us
01:54:3701:54:37 - through his son right this is the son is the radiance of God’s glory the exact representation of his being sustaining
01:54:4401:54:44 - all things through his powerful word it’s the Emissary of God’s power right it is not Jesus as Aaron boy it is Jesus
01:54:5301:54:53 - as the standing for the deity of the father um I know AI has made the point that within the Trinity which we’ll get
01:55:0001:55:00 - to a little bit further on in the study the father is seen as the representation of deity within the godhead Jesus is
01:55:0901:55:09 - that deity represented to us upon Earth as the messenger um but it is the messenger carrying the scepter of the
01:55:1601:55:16 - king so to speak not like an under um so I don’t want to ramble but this is important stuff in on on on Luke 11
01:55:2601:55:26 - verse2 it said but if I cast out demons with the Finger of God surely the kingdom of God has come upon you right
01:55:3301:55:33 - you said Luke 11:20 or 20111 1120 okay yeah I flip the references there mine’s NK nkjv on mine yeah I think that’s the
01:55:4501:55:45 - parallel passage to the one that we were we were looking at in Matthew chapter 12 right all right anything else you want
01:55:5301:55:53 - to you want to say aie um I mean I I I do think the language of sent and being sent and the one who sent me um we could
01:56:0001:56:00 - go look at some references in the Gospel of John uh to examine that concept but it’s very interesting and it gets to
01:56:0601:56:06 - this point of what Jesus is claiming when he says he was sent by the father as the Son of God um yeah I I think uh
01:56:1601:56:16 - that’s um that word was they like like we said they knew exactly what he meant to us today it would be a bit ridiculous
01:56:2401:56:24 - but they knew what he was saying because I mean while they in Jewish system they
01:56:3401:56:34 - would have understood that we ultimately come from God because he made us they also knew that the Angels could be
01:56:4201:56:42 - called sons of God in the sense of their activity on behalf of God and their power and the domains and spheres of
01:56:5101:56:51 - authori that they maintained for God but this one was not a son of God he claimed to be the Son of God the one who was the
01:57:0301:57:03 - true representation of the father’s will so like they they knew what it meant they knew we today it’s not really the
01:57:1201:57:12 - way we think but it was the way they thought and they knew the the scriptures they knew prophecy they knew exactly
01:57:1901:57:19 - what he how about the definite article Angel of the Lord from the New Testament or sorry
01:57:2401:57:24 - from the Old Testament it’s the same thing um why shall we say cultural implication what he was claiming was
01:57:3101:57:31 - clear so that to tie us back into the QED here so that when Jesus called God his father that’s why they equated it in
01:57:4101:57:41 - context in cultural context they read between the lines and know and they knew that that claim was that he was equal
01:57:4701:57:47 - with god um that’s why the things are equivalent sorry we take a little bit of a round about path to get there but
01:57:5401:57:54 - that’s this verse um all right next one we’re g to look at um John chapter 10 verse
01:58:0301:58:03 - 30 pretty straightforward I and the father are one right Jesus claims it as well it’s not like we just have to read
01:58:1201:58:12 - between the lines um so uh recall that we had just estblished that the father is God and if
01:58:2101:58:21 - Jesus says that he is one with the father then Jesus Is God too that’s how that works logic wise um so this is just
01:58:2901:58:29 - well beyond what a a typical Prophet would have said right sure I mean we would say that folks like let’s say
01:58:3701:58:37 - famous Old Testament prophets Elijah Samuel maybe they were given the words of God but what we mean by that is not
01:58:4601:58:46 - equivalent to them being God or basically they can’t act like as if they have the authority of
01:58:5201:58:52 - God they have not been delegated that Authority right so you might think about this of uh in Warfare times and places
01:59:0001:59:00 - throughout history the king might send an emissary a representative to conduct like an alliance for example with
01:59:0801:59:08 - someone that person is acting with the authority of the King right but not every messenger has the authority of the
01:59:1601:59:16 - king see what I’m saying um there’s this there’s this sense of who is the represent in fact it’s even stronger
01:59:2301:59:23 - than that in the parable of the vineyard you remember how the owner of the vineyard sends people to try to reason
01:59:3101:59:31 - with the tenants and then they they kill these people and then he sends his son saying certainly they will listen to my
01:59:3701:59:37 - son right we have this idea of the son being literally the family representative right um you know in a
01:59:4701:59:47 - way that that people who simp simply work for you or not you know God sent his one and only son to us that is
01:59:5401:59:54 - stronger than God sending a beloved servant to us right although the Bible is very clear that Jesus perfectly
02:00:0002:00:00 - followed the father’s will right that that adopted kenosis Etc um you know like the Jesus’s status as fully
02:00:0902:00:09 - submitting to the father’s will but the point is is that Jesus had this Authority he was the representative of
02:00:1702:00:17 - the father um yeah the full representation of the father’s Authority they knew they knew um um in this case I
02:00:2702:00:27 - and the father are one um whatever you think of the father is applicable to me whatever you do to me you do to the
02:00:3502:00:35 - father they knew precisely what he was saying that’s why they tried to Stone him Jesus made the the claims based on
02:00:4202:00:42 - this other places where anyone who Rejects My Testimony rejects the father’s testimony right again again
02:00:4902:00:49 - Gospel of John uses this language a lot um when Jesus says that it’s because he has been given the authority right
02:00:5702:00:57 - that’s that’s why he says this is because his words carry the very weight of
02:01:0302:01:03 - God uh you know to use a close contrast I mentioned the Old Testament prophets Lisa had asked well this is definitely
02:01:1002:01:10 - stronger than just the prophets right consider uh the John the Baptist um you know we use this phrase sent from God
02:01:1902:01:19 - you know this was something that the Pharisees went you know they were afraid that the people thought that John had
02:01:2402:01:24 - been sent by God right this comes up in the gospels and so was John the Baptist asking or operating on God’s power the
02:01:3102:01:31 - answer to that question is yes of course but he was not the Messiah you know in fact John the Baptist goes well out of
02:01:3802:01:38 - his way to make that clear I am not even worthy to untie his sandals right um that’s the difference in yeah St so to
02:01:4902:01:49 - speak of those we talking about yeah good stuff so next one um also John
02:01:5802:01:58 - chapter 10 ver 33 you know this is making it very clear that Jesus was claiming to be God um you know if they
02:02:0802:02:08 - were stoning him and he wasn’t actually saying this he would have been like wait hold up guys um well I mean I say that
02:02:1502:02:15 - but there are other places like in John chapter 6 where he talks about eating his flesh and drinking his blood where
02:02:2002:02:20 - everyone takes him completely the wrong way and he doesn’t correct them right because the idea is people who are
02:02:2602:02:26 - actually interested will ask what it means rather than just assuming and picking up Stones um but Jesus really
02:02:3302:02:33 - did claim to be God as the thing um and so you know just another verse making it very clear that that’s what everyone
02:02:4202:02:42 - understood this to be um it it it wasn’t like they got this out of nowhere right um that they were picking up stones to
02:02:5202:02:52 - Stone him for his claims of being one with the father making himself out to be equal to God just like that they like
02:02:5902:02:59 - they got them all wrong basically and that’s why they were doing this right um now of course you know we don’t want to
02:03:0502:03:05 - get too reductionistic in it but they knew this in a way that maybe like we’ve been saying isn’t as so clear to us in
02:03:1102:03:11 - our cultural context but it is very much what Jesus was claiming um yeah and they understood it as such
02:03:2002:03:20 - um yeah and so basically the testimony of the of the actions of the Jews was to
02:03:2802:03:28 - say we know what you’re saying and we reject it and those of us today who go well um he didn’t say it that’s how they
02:03:3602:03:36 - understood it and they were wrong in understanding it that way but kind of missing the point I I I don’t know if
02:03:4302:03:43 - you guys know but there are people who are making an issue that um Jesus never claimed to be God in any part of the
02:03:5102:03:51 - scriptures well uh this was one of those places where he did make that claim and when they made this accusation against
02:04:0002:04:00 - him that he was claiming to be God his response was not oh you got that wrong I wasn’t making that claim but he actually
02:04:0802:04:08 - told them well if the scriptures call those to whom the word of the Lord came Gods because you know
02:04:1702:04:17 - the scriptures say are Gods he says how much more the one whom the father has Sanctified set apart for himself the one
02:04:2602:04:26 - who is not like any other human this is I will tell you this is one of those things where it is the hardness of heart
02:04:3302:04:33 - that God gives us so much room to reject him because all these people are like like come on man just answer the
02:04:4102:04:41 - question are you God yes or no and Jesus says for the Bible says ye are gods and how much more you see what I’m saying
02:04:4802:04:48 - like he doesn’t answer yes or no um and he he does this on purpose though um this is the rhetorical strategy of Jesus
02:04:5802:04:58 - so to speak um he answers this he doesn’t say it like that because it is supposed to get us to think about what
02:05:0802:05:08 - this means to give people that opportunity to turn away um so yeah and and and even even further he did tell
02:05:1602:05:16 - them that he was God he told them I am the father or one you know this is actually it’s it’s the same the same
02:05:2402:05:24 - chapter this is the same two two verses before um yeah yeah he had told them I am the father of one and they picked up
02:05:3302:05:33 - stones to Stone him and he asked them what did I do which good work are you stoning me for not for a good work it’s
02:05:4002:05:40 - because you’re claiming to be God well why is that a problem when God calls some of you Gods to whom the word of God
02:05:4902:05:49 - came I mean if he could call some of you Gods how much more the one whom he has set apart for himself the one who is
02:05:5702:05:57 - unique among all human beings that will ever exist right this was one person of all the mass of humanity that God had
02:06:0602:06:06 - set apart for himself there was no one like Jesus Christ before him and there will never be anyone like Jesus Christ
02:06:1302:06:13 - after him this was the one person who was both God and man at the same time that’s what was actually saying it is
02:06:2002:06:20 - very clear like actually this reading this passage together right these two verses Dr lugan is citing them you know
02:06:2602:06:26 - one after the other here but this passage they were stoning him because they said that it was blasphemy that he
02:06:3202:06:32 - was claiming to be like it is that’s what that claim says Jesus said that that’s what they thought it meant that
02:06:3702:06:37 - is what it meant right exactly exactly exactly and of course I love I love the way that Jesus phrases this right um
02:06:4602:06:46 - they pick up stones to Stone him and he ask for which good thing I’ve done are you starting me um you know it is uh
02:06:5402:06:54 - yeah try but you know um anyway um John chapter 10 real clear right um next one we’re gonna look at Romans chapter 9
02:07:0602:07:06 - verse 5 right this one’s a little bit harder um I don’t know how well this comes
02:07:1402:07:14 - through in the English but um who’s are you know here let me I’m going go look at the full context
02:07:2102:07:21 - here Romans nine it’s talking about Israel yeah being yeah but this this version let’s
02:07:3102:07:31 - see this is NIV um let’s see what what version did we pick it up is nasb 95 probably a
02:07:3702:07:37 - little bit more literal here it’s probably closer to what the Greek says but NIV brings out the meaning more here
02:07:4402:07:44 - that they’re saying that the Messiah is God right um like this is is a I can actually check here if there’s a
02:07:5102:07:51 - relative pronoun in the Greek um let’s check it’s Romans but I’m just curious that’s all um yeah so it
02:08:0202:08:02 - depends what you take the antecedent of this pronoun to be right here so this is the Greek relative pronoun ha which is
02:08:0802:08:08 - we would translate in English as who it’s called a relative pronoun it starts a relative Clause right uh relative
02:08:1502:08:15 - pronouns have what are called antecedents that means they point to something that came before um and the
02:08:2202:08:22 - question here is what does it point to well this noun right here hristos this is the Messiah Christ right um so
02:08:3302:08:33 - something along the lines of um Christ you know according to the flesh right who pointing back to Christ is how you
02:08:4202:08:42 - should translate this this is where the relative pronoun points to which means this text I you know I Sor I don’t want
02:08:4902:08:49 - to get super technical there but the point is that this translation when the NIV here translates that the Messiah is
02:08:5402:08:54 - the antecedent of this relative pronoun so that s we saying that Messiah is God that is the correct way to translate
02:09:0002:09:00 - this um so yeah yeah and again that’s not the point of
02:09:1002:09:10 - this passage it’s just there um you know like a just an aside about the Messiah the Messiah who is the messiah
02:09:1802:09:18 - God overall um and Jesus claimed to be the Messiah therefore Jesus claimed to be God read yes
02:09:2702:09:27 - exactly all right 1 Corinthians chapter 8 verse 6 this is this one we saw the last time
02:09:3502:09:35 - too we said from whom all things exist and we exist for him that’s the father and one Lord Jesus Christ by whom are
02:09:4302:09:43 - all things it’s what we were talking about in John chapter 1 and we exist through through him we exist for the
02:09:5002:09:50 - father exist through Christ you know clear reference here to John chapter 1 um
02:09:5602:09:56 - yeah yeah yeah so just as all things um sorry what was that
02:10:0602:10:06 - passage again sorry uh 1 Corinthians chapter 8 verse 6 yeah just as all things all things exist for the father
02:10:1602:10:16 - and from the father all things exist by Jesus Christ and through through him so that’s that’s quite an equation to me
02:10:2702:10:27 - yeah and like I said I in my mind this is a very clear reference to the agency of the Sun in creation um right if we
02:10:3602:10:36 - say in whom when Paul says in whom all things hold together other places in in the Bible we kind of get the sense that
02:10:4202:10:42 - he has the father in mind there but we know that Jesus Christ is said to be the agent in creation it’s what John chapter
02:10:5002:10:50 - 1 says um yeah yeah yeah all right Colossians chapter 2 verse 9 I don’t
02:11:0102:11:01 - know this is why I’m chuckling I don’t know how people somehow don’t believe this right um just just read it
02:11:1002:11:10 - Colossians 2 verse 9 talking about Jesus Christ here by the way for in him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily
02:11:1702:11:17 - form I mean like that’s what we’re talking about right um yeah yeah the fullness of
02:11:2702:11:27 - deity that means he’s God yes I mean like how else let me ask you people who oppose the deity of Christ what else
02:11:3702:11:37 - does this passage mean if not that Jesus is god um you know and I’m sure they have their they have their their the
02:11:4402:11:44 - ways in which they twist scripture to make it not so right I mentioned the Jehovah’s Witnesses in John chapter one
02:11:5002:11:50 - earlier squabbling over the definite article when it’s very clear that the passage says that Jesus is god um so too
02:11:5602:11:56 - here I’m sure people have their arguments all of which are complete rubbish I’m sure but this verse says
02:12:0302:12:03 - that Jesus is god um full stop end of story um or we could look at a bit more of the context it’s not
02:12:1202:12:12 - confusing yeah I mean a lot of what we’re reading doesn’t require this is actually one Reon that the Trinity the
02:12:1902:12:19 - the the teaching of the Trinity is not really that advanced it’s not even an advanced Doctrine it’s not something we
02:12:2602:12:26 - need to you know know so much to understand it’s pretty straightforward all of these things are claims that the
02:12:3302:12:33 - Bible is making explicitly about the members of the Trinity how each of them are God in this particular case um um
02:12:4302:12:43 - sorry I I need to see that passage again uh we are in 2 Corinthians chapter 2 verse 9 it’s right here says for in
02:12:5202:12:52 - Christ all the fullness of the deity Liv for yeah that’s that’s just not the
02:13:0102:13:01 - experience anyone else has this is unique to Christ that the fullness that is everything that is deity everything
02:13:0902:13:09 - that is deity lived in a bodily form it was well not contained but it was fully expressed right well this
02:13:1902:13:19 - is theology terms which we’ll get to probably if we did if we ever get to christology we we’ll get to this it’s
02:13:2602:13:26 - called the hypostatic Union right um that’s the theological jargon for fully God yet fully man how does that work
02:13:3602:13:36 - it’s what that teaching is about yes important I heard this girl say that um one time somebody asked her about God
02:13:4502:13:45 - and she said well if you’ve seen me you’ve seen my father and she was going off the you know that the spirit of God
02:13:5302:13:53 - dwells in her as a Believer but this is very different and that was wrong for her to claim
02:14:0002:14:00 - that I mean here’s how I view it first Corinthians I think second Corinthians chapter 3 talks about us reflecting
02:14:0602:14:06 - God’s glory we mirrors right Jesus Christ was not a mirror he radiated God’s glory actively see the difference
02:14:1502:14:15 - we reflect he radiates completely different things I don’t know if that’s a helpful analogy but um yes
02:14:2202:14:22 - you know like Jesus Christ is a light source we merely reflect light those are two completely different things um like
02:14:3002:14:30 - Moon does the sun right good analogy too um but yeah you you’re we are correct when we say that the fullness of deity
02:14:4002:14:40 - living in bodily form for no one else does the fullness of De live in bodily form right that’s not what it means for
02:14:4602:14:46 - us to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit that’s not what this is getting at this is getting at the second member of the
02:14:5202:14:52 - Trinity taking on flesh becoming a human being to die for us that’s what we’re talking about here um all right one more
02:15:0202:15:02 - and good stuff yeah um Hebrews chapter 1 verse3 I think I quoted this before right this is talking about Jesus being
02:15:1002:15:10 - God’s last message to humanity I love Hebrews chapter 1 um these first few verses of Hebrews are some of my
02:15:1602:15:16 - favorite just because of how strong they are this is the epicness of human history if you will right so we’re
02:15:2202:15:22 - speaking of Jesus and why God sent him and he says he is the radiance of his glory his being God God’s glory and the
02:15:2902:15:29 - exact representation of his nature and upholds all things by the word of his power when he had made purification of
02:15:3602:15:36 - sins he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high so words here exact representation of his
02:15:4502:15:45 - nature this is another thing that is quote unquote Jesus only so to speak right we as human beings are indwelt by
02:15:5302:15:53 - the Holy Spirit but we are not the exact representation of God’s nature right um so and actually you know that that
02:16:0202:16:02 - that metaphor where we just using about Jesus radiating the glory of God and US reflecting the glory of God look at this
02:16:0902:16:09 - right here says Jesus is the radiance of his glory let me pull that passage up from 2
02:16:1602:16:16 - Corinthians chapter I think this is talking about like the veil in Moses as well
02:16:2202:16:22 - um uh you know we talked about this when we were talking about lightting Glory right
02:16:2802:16:28 - um I don’t know if this there’s another passage I think that talks about going from glory to glory maybe that’s here um
02:16:3402:16:34 - anyway point being Jesus is the radiance of the glory of God um the radiance of his glory that is different than us um
02:16:4502:16:45 - Jesus here is expressely said you know we could go look at like I said I love Hebrews chapter 1 um but he’s explicitly
02:16:5202:16:52 - said you know first off to be sent by go oops Hebrews 1 not 11 um right now actually verse two very good reference
02:17:0202:17:02 - for this too Universe was made through Jesus Christ right um yeah it doesn’t work unless he’s God uh but yeah
02:17:1402:17:14 - yeah yes there really isn’t much to say about all of all of this I agree I mean I
02:17:2102:17:21 - don’t it is not a waste of time for us to go through the passages though it’s why we’re doing also note also note
02:17:2802:17:28 - we’ve talked about this before uh compared to some of the other parts of this study in uh Bible basics theology
02:17:3502:17:35 - is kind of short and if you look it’s not like I just skipped paragraphs I like I didn’t copy into the slides for
02:17:4202:17:42 - the points that we’re doing here these are the points this is all that the study says um it just is literally a
02:17:4802:17:48 - list of Bible references right because we have talked through some of this we’re trying to explain to fill in a
02:17:5502:17:55 - little bit maybe get a little bit more picture of what these passages are saying but it’s right there in the
02:18:0302:18:03 - passages right we we aren’t we aren’t going through a complicated set of steps to no you know find evidence for that
02:18:1002:18:10 - which we are discussing um yeah all right well yeah uh I think that’s where we will wrap this one um this has been
02:18:1902:18:19 - establishing that the sun is divine the sun is god um so we started talking about how the father is God now we’ve
02:18:2602:18:26 - talked about how the son is God next thing we’ll talk about is how the spirit is God as
02:18:3402:18:34 - well so now we are going to talk about how the holy spirit is God so having talked about how the father is God and
02:18:4302:18:43 - the son is God we’ve gone through many scripture passages to help support these points we’ve made we are going to be
02:18:5002:18:50 - doing the same thing for the spirit and in some ways as I know we have noted in our past discussions this is perhaps the
02:18:5802:18:58 - one that trips people up the most that has a tendency to perhaps not seem quite as straightforward as the other two
02:19:0702:19:07 - members of the Trinity but as we’ll see there are a number of passages that make the point clear enough that we don’t
02:19:1402:19:14 - have to guess at this it just like the other two members of the Trinity is something that is right there in
02:19:2002:19:20 - scripture if we just have eyes to see so with that we’re just going to go ahead and go through the passages just how
02:19:2602:19:26 - we’ve done for the last couple starting with uh the actually the second verse of the Bible here in Genesis chapter 1 um
02:19:3502:19:35 - now for those of us who follow ikus uh this is a familiar verse because this is the primary verse uh when you interpret
02:19:4402:19:44 - the Hebrew here for uh kind of translating formless and void uh also you know shows up in the book of
02:19:5102:19:51 - Jeremiah uh the Hebrew here toou Vu can translate as ruined and despoiled and we have the the was here uh the Earth was
02:20:0202:20:02 - um if you translate it a certain way based on the disjunctive Clause that comes after you can also translate it as
02:20:0902:20:09 - became and so if you translate this as the Earth became ruined and despoiled suddenly that’s a lot
02:20:1502:20:15 - different right um so this is how ikus explains the Genesis Gap that’s what this verse comes so not to get too off
02:20:2302:20:23 - on a tangent there but the operative Point here is that the spirit of God shows up in the creation narrative here
02:20:2902:20:29 - in Genesis chapter 1 um and in fact if we go look at the rest of Genesis you know it is very clear that uh God is in
02:20:3902:20:39 - view oops Genesis one uh God is in view during the creation narrative um so in the beginning God created the heavens
02:20:4602:20:46 - and the Earth and then in the very same breath as that statement then we have the spirit of God
02:20:5302:20:53 - coming in the next verse and then in verse three we have just God again and so it would be kind of strange here
02:21:0102:21:01 - within the narrative for us to go from God to spirit of God who would somehow not be God and then God again uh you
02:21:0902:21:09 - know in terms of what we would call narrative structure even if you have like a narrator or characters in a book
02:21:1702:21:17 - not that the Bible is a novel per se but you you just don’t switch subjects like that uh especially going from one to the
02:21:2502:21:25 - other and then back to the the initial one in just a sentence later uh so this is what I would call strong inferential
02:21:3202:21:32 - evidence that the spirit of God is God that they are one and the same um now of course we know from the Gospel of John
02:21:4102:21:41 - in John chapter 1 that the agent in creation was the son um there are other passages in the Bible that talk about
02:21:4802:21:48 - how through him all things were made um or maybe that’s in John too at any rate um the son is the agent of creation but
02:21:5702:21:57 - within the context of recreation at least that’s what we would say Genesis chapter 1 is if you believe in the
02:22:0502:22:05 - Genesis Gap or the idea that we have the world has been restored after the Judgment that God rendered upon the
02:22:1202:22:12 - universe for the rebellion of Satan and the angels um that the spirit of God is involved here in this chapter within the
02:22:2202:22:22 - same breath within the same breath as God you know in verse one and verse three immediately preceding and
02:22:2902:22:29 - immediately following um so AI do you have thoughts on this verse as it supports the point of the spirit is
02:22:3902:22:39 - god um uh not not really I think it’s a pretty straightforward thing there is an
02:22:4802:22:48 - an agent so to speak someone who is actually doing something and then um we see someone else in view which seems to
02:22:5802:22:58 - suggest that just like you said uh it certainly has to be well if we don’t say the same person
02:23:0702:23:07 - well they they are of a class they’re of the same class um some God is doing the creating something happened to the
02:23:1602:23:16 - creation and God is still featuring we don’t see any other person here so if the spirit
02:23:2302:23:23 - of God is here then um it’s a pretty strong uh uh correlation being made here that’s that’s it’s pretty much what you
02:23:3302:23:33 - said so I don’t really have anything for to add and I think maybe just to riff I know we’ve talked about this before I
02:23:3802:23:38 - don’t remember in exactly which segment but how God is not some sort of husk that is inhabited by a spirit right we
02:23:4502:23:45 - talked about the differences between our makeup as humans where we have flesh and spirit combined we are dichotomous
02:23:5302:23:53 - beings uh spirit is what gives us life the word for Spirit in both Greek and Hebrew actually means breath uh we
02:24:0102:24:01 - talked about all of this for the makeup of humans and then we said God is Not B uh God does not have this second part
02:24:0802:24:08 - like how we do as humans God is Spirit but when we talk of the spirit of God it’s not as if the father is somehow the
02:24:1602:24:16 - shell that Spirit resides in or or any sort of wrong-headed idea like that so uh you know just reiterating that point
02:24:2502:24:25 - that we’ve made before when we talk of the spirit of God it is not as if we say the spirit of God is to the human spirit
02:24:3302:24:33 - in a onetoone sort of correlation um it’s not the same thing and of course Angels Are Spiritual but they are
02:24:4102:24:41 - different from both us as humans and from God so um I think we talked Over All that in the past but just making
02:24:4802:24:48 - that point again so in my opinion actually there were there’s obviously quite a few passages here this was one
02:24:5402:24:54 - of the ones that I don’t think it’s maybe quite as clear it’s inferential is what I would say um if you say somehow
02:25:0002:25:00 - that the Spirit In this passage is not God then you have some explaining to do um I don’t think it’s as logically
02:25:0502:25:05 - airtight as some of the other passages which we’ll go through in a moment here so next one we’re going to look at Psalm
02:25:1302:25:13 - 139:7 um we have established previous L that one of the characteristics of God is omnipresence we talked about how
02:25:2202:25:22 - running away from God is futile just like Jonah because no matter where you go God is there um so
02:25:2902:25:29 - omnipresence is this idea that within material creation God is everywhere um and here in Psalm 139 we see that the
02:25:4002:25:40 - spirit here of God has this quality which as we have argued in the other section is what we would call an
02:25:4902:25:49 - essential characteristic of God um at least in applied with respect to Creation you know the essential
02:25:5502:25:55 - characteristic I suppose we would say is immeasurability but within creation that manifests as omnipresence and so if that
02:26:0202:26:02 - is something that characterizes God and the spirit has that then the spirit is God QED sort of how this verse supports
02:26:1002:26:10 - the idea um anything more you want to you want to add um not really I think that’s exactly the argument um we cannot
02:26:2102:26:21 - escape from the spirit of God wherever we go his presence is there so that that is essentially saying that the spirit is
02:26:3202:26:32 - God I mean it’s not saying it explicitly but it’s right there you know
02:26:4002:26:40 - y all right good deal um this one somewhat clear right I mean that’s still a couple hops in logic to get there but
02:26:4802:26:48 - once you understand that immeasurability and omnipresence are unique characteristics of God as in God is the
02:26:5402:26:54 - only being to possess those then that’s how you get there um so that’s these two now we’re going to
02:27:0202:27:02 - get to one of the ones that I think is dead clear um you really really have to do explaining away if you try to make
02:27:0902:27:09 - the spirit not God In this passage and this is in Acts chapter 5 uh with ananas and saf withholding some of the sale of
02:27:1702:27:17 - their land now this passage uh I won’t get on a super big side tangent here but uh people sometimes interpret this one
02:27:2502:27:25 - wrong so this idea that um basically if we don’t give all our money to the church then God’s going to strike us
02:27:3202:27:32 - down dead is not quite the point of the passage um the point is lying to God uh deception uh basically and specifically
02:27:4202:27:42 - to cement the apostles Authority and this is one of the things that makes this passage kind of tricky to interpret
02:27:4802:27:48 - uh from what we might call a hermeneutic point of view is like what are we to get out of this how are we supposed to apply
02:27:5402:27:54 - to our own lives that sort of thing is that the apostles were given a good deal more Authority even than Pastor teachers
02:28:0002:28:00 - today and they did signs and uh God empowered them to cast out spirits and things like this um and here in this
02:28:0902:28:09 - context this is tied up in that to a degree so we see a little bit further on in the passage that the people are given
02:28:1602:28:16 - to fear on account of this um so ananas and his wife struck down on account of deceiving um or attempting to deceive
02:28:2602:28:26 - rather the apostles and as we see here um because fundamentally it is an affront to God himself um but doesn’t
02:28:3502:28:35 - quite apply in the same way today so we’re going to kind of leave all that aside of just a little bit of background
02:28:3902:28:39 - on this passage right so I’m going to go ahead and read this this is Acts 5: 3 to 4 says uh but Peter said in IAS why has
02:28:4702:28:47 - Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land while it remained
02:28:5302:28:53 - unsold did it not remain your own and after it was sold was it not under your control why is it that you have
02:29:0102:29:01 - conceived this deed in your heart you have not lied to men but to God so in verse three we have lying to
02:29:1002:29:10 - the Holy Spirit and then in verse four Peter said that you lied to God slam dunk right there is very little way that
02:29:1902:29:19 - you can interpret this without going to Great contortions to somehow say that you know that Peter is saying that
02:29:2602:29:26 - Anan Li to two separate people here um the by far the clearest way to interpret this text is that Anan eyes lying to the
02:29:3402:29:34 - Holy Spirit dwelling within him and that the subject or sorry the person being lied to in verse three and verse four is
02:29:4102:29:41 - the same and that the holy spirit is god um questions on how that fits fits together or aie do you have anything
02:29:4802:29:48 - more to say for this one no not nothing to say on this one right like I said in my opinion this is
02:29:5602:29:56 - one of those ones that is this is one of the slam dunk ones this is the one where even if people
02:30:0302:30:03 - don’t buy the other ones maybe you can’t get out of this um this is very very clear yeah all right Acts chapter 5
02:30:1302:30:13 - verses three to four um this one is a little bit a little bit less clear in my opinion this is another one where we we
02:30:1902:30:19 - have some work to do here um so this is 1 Corinthians chapter 12 um now well it opens up in not a very pretty view here
02:30:2902:30:29 - let me this is logos um Bible study software um so uh picking up at verse 11 we are talking about the distribution of
02:30:3802:30:38 - spiritual gifts within the body so 1 Corinthians 12 uh one of the primary passages in the Bible talking about the
02:30:4702:30:47 - analogy of the church as one body and uh you know Ephesians 4 mentions gifts distributed to different people in the
02:30:5502:30:55 - church but Ephesians 12 also heavily hits that uh Verses 4 through six actually hit all three members of the
02:31:0302:31:03 - Trinity I’m not sure if we actually went over this bit but it’s another one of those places where all three show up and
02:31:0902:31:09 - Audi and I previously made the argument that once you start seeing the threes all over the New Testament the the only
02:31:1702:31:17 - good way to explain it is that the three members are God that they are the Trinity you know this is why we’ve
02:31:2402:31:24 - continue to argue all all during our discussion here that the Trinity is is in the Bible we don’t have to rely on
02:31:3102:31:31 - church councils or later people to uh somehow say that we didn’t understand intell then or whatever because uh
02:31:3802:31:38 - scripture itself obviously speaks of this Doctrine um so Verses 4 through six talk about how there’s a variety gifts
02:31:4602:31:46 - but the Same Spirit variety of Ministries and the same Lord and a variety of effects but the same God who
02:31:5102:31:51 - works all things and all persons so we take God there to be the father um so once we hop down you know in the context
02:31:5802:31:58 - of this passage um you know I’ll just read actually picking up at verse 7 just so we get the context right before verse
02:32:0502:32:05 - 11 so it says but to each one is given the manifestation of the spirit for the common good so we’re talking about
02:32:1102:32:11 - spiritual gifts here for to one is given the word of wisdom through the spirit and two another the word of knowledge
02:32:1702:32:17 - according to the same spirit and to another Faith by The Same Spirit and to another Gifts of healing by the one
02:32:2202:32:22 - spirit and to another the effecting of Miracles into another prophecy and to another the distinguishing of spirits to
02:32:2902:32:29 - another various kinds of tongues and to another the interpretation of tongues now some of these spiritual gifts that
02:32:3502:32:35 - we just went through those verses 7 through 10 uh were what we would call the transitional gifts During the period
02:32:4302:32:43 - of Acts uh this is what ichus teaches that during that time before the close of the Canon and before widespread
02:32:5002:32:50 - copies of scripture were available uh certain gifts prophecy tongues and the interpretation of tongues were used sort
02:32:5802:32:58 - of in an overtly Supernatural way to communicate God’s truth in the absence of the closed Cannon or the availability
02:33:0402:33:04 - of the closed Cannon um okay so leaving that aside that’s when we get to our verse here that Dr
02:33:1102:33:11 - lugan Bill’s reference verse 11 which says but one in the same Spirit works all these things Distributing to each
02:33:1802:33:18 - one individually just as he Wills um so I am not exactly in Dr lug Bill’s head um you know it took me a little bit
02:33:2702:33:27 - to try to figure out why is he using this verse to support uh you know the spirit’s
02:33:3202:33:32 - Divinity here um I think one of the clearer things is that um the spirit has agency here um and I know we’ve talked
02:33:4202:33:42 - about uh the spirit sort of being the impersonal member of of the Trinity the one who is in the background empowering
02:33:5002:33:50 - things but he’s the direct subject in the sentence as in um he has a verb coming I’m trying to think about the way
02:34:0002:34:00 - that doesn’t sound super grammatical here um like like he’s the agent you know he’s doing something here actively
02:34:0602:34:06 - um and uh a do you do you have thoughts um you know I I don’t want to sound unconvincing but this was one of those
02:34:1202:34:12 - verses where I mean I think the entire passage in context supports the Trinity but on this one supporting the spirit
02:34:2002:34:20 - being God directly I was kind of curious why Dr luganville pick first 11 um oh okay um I think you just if if you take
02:34:3002:34:30 - the whole thing together you know it makes sense that um 11 would be would stand out the way that it
02:34:3802:34:38 - does the we have we have um where does it talk about the father
02:34:4702:34:47 - Yes varieties of effects the same God varieties of Ministries same Lord Rises of gifts Same Spirit this is this is a
02:35:0002:35:00 - it’s like a how do how do we express it it’s more like these three are are of a Kind they’re of a
02:35:0802:35:08 - class if if there are no varieties of gifts there will be no Ministries and there will be no effects so the this is
02:35:1602:35:16 - a connection of equals and then in verse 11 one and the Same Spirit works all these things Distributing to each one
02:35:2402:35:24 - individually just as he himself Wills that’s the sort of language that you would actually apply to God you know so
02:35:3102:35:31 - I think I would actually look at it a bit more obliquely instead of um thinking in terms of these passages
02:35:3802:35:38 - support the the Trinity it would be more like this pass these passages essentially you know they they they
02:35:4602:35:46 - assume the Trinity that’s essentially the point but because um is is the spirit you know Distributing to each one
02:35:5602:35:56 - individually as God Wills as the father Wills as you know as basically he is not doing so on his own authority as God but
02:36:0702:36:07 - he does it on his authority as God he distributes to each one exactly as he pleases it’s it’s not as if he needs to
02:36:1402:36:14 - be told who to give what so he distributes the gifts according to his own will that’s a very significant
02:36:2202:36:22 - statement to make about the spirit of God you know so for those who struggle with um I I don’t think it needs to be
02:36:3002:36:30 - exactly clinical you know to speak to what we’re saying the Bible just assumes it
02:36:3802:36:38 - does not actually you know profer um what would I call it it doesn’t profer an explicit teaching of
02:36:4602:36:46 - the Trinity just as it does a lot of things it’s more like well here it is it’s it’s just it’s just something it
02:36:5302:36:53 - assumes and and presents in so many different ways that it essentially says don’t you see it I mean it’s kind of the
02:37:0002:37:00 - point I mean don’t you see it it’s it frames the entire thing it’s trying to say or it is saying it’s it doesn’t
02:37:0902:37:09 - focus on it as a thing so um yeah that’s what I would say about this verse 11 I think it’s actually a pretty it’s a it’s
02:37:1902:37:19 - a it’s each one that that we mention is even even when it seems to be a bit uh obscure is
02:37:2902:37:29 - actually by itself so enough because how would you say that the one and the Same Spirit works all these
02:37:3802:37:38 - things and it distributes to each one individually as he Wills I mean we’re talking about
02:37:4602:37:46 - um what God is looking to accomplish in the church and the spirit is acting on his own will you know that’s a very
02:37:5202:37:52 - significant thing to say so you know I guess you know how we had one of the other ones basically obliquely
02:37:5902:37:59 - referencing omnipresence right yeah you remember I I made the argument when we were talking about omniscience uh when
02:38:0702:38:07 - it comes to molinism and this idea of how does God know best before things have happened that requires for
02:38:1302:38:13 - knowledge and omniscience I I suppose you could you could say that this verse is very much getting at omniscience
02:38:2002:38:20 - right how could the spirit possibly know what gifts to distribute perfectly according to God’s plan if he was not
02:38:2702:38:27 - God um I I don’t know necessarily if that’s exactly what Dr lug and kind but you
02:38:3502:38:35 - know you can get there you know as you say um it if the spirit is not God what does this verse mean that is a fair
02:38:4402:38:44 - question yeah you know I mean I I I really and you know that’s one of the things where
02:38:5002:38:50 - um we are not necessarily teaching this Doctrine from the perspective of what I might call an apologetic fashion um as
02:38:5802:38:58 - in if I were talking to a skeptical crowd and I was like and they want me to show a verse where like it’s logically
02:39:0602:39:06 - inescapable that the spirit is God I would lead with Acts chapter 5 that passage because in that particular one
02:39:1202:39:12 - it’s like I said it’s more of a slam dunk Passage in this particular one it’s it’s more evidence right
02:39:1902:39:19 - because the most clear straightforward way to interpret this is that the spirit is God because he’s taking this action
02:39:2602:39:26 - in this way which would have to perfectly align with the plan of the other members of the Trinity for it to
02:39:3102:39:31 - make any sense and that just if he’s not God why does it happen like this right suppose you could make an argument that
02:39:3902:39:39 - he was just doing as he commanded but then why does it say as he Wills rather than as the father Wills for example you
02:39:4502:39:45 - know I mean you can get there it’s just you know yeah I I get it I get it I suppose
02:39:5202:39:52 - I just um I I don’t particularly uh uh you know frame it with respect
02:40:0002:40:00 - to um people who want to see it literally stated it’s it’s more like we much as we are looking at each passage
02:40:0902:40:09 - in isolation in the end we’re really looking at the Bible as a whole so each passage is part of you know the context
02:40:1602:40:16 - it’s part of the um whole thing so it’s essentially saying look here it’s mentioned again here is it’s imp passing
02:40:2302:40:23 - you know it may not be in your face or or explicit as you might expect but all of these passages only make sense when
02:40:3202:40:32 - you assume the Trinity once you don’t assume the Trinity meaning is lost the thing does not make sense anymore so
02:40:4202:40:42 - what would it mean if you say that the spirit one one and and the same spirit is is is giving these gifts and
02:40:5102:40:51 - distributing them entirely as he pleases as he himself Wills what does that mean for those who
02:41:0002:41:00 - say oh to make sense of the spirit of God you have to think of him as a force well what force is willing anything what
02:41:0702:41:07 - force is having a pleasing a a sense of this pleases me this is what I would like to do that an impersonal Force have
02:41:1502:41:15 - that sort of thing okay so let’s not talk about an impersonal Force this is the spirit of the father well you still
02:41:2202:41:22 - have have to deal with the context of this particular statement one and the Same Spirit Works in all of these things
02:41:2702:41:27 - well yeah that’s like saying um uh Aima um there are there are varieties of gifts but the same Aima and there are
02:41:4002:41:40 - varieties of Ministries but the same here noi basically it’s the same person is referencing just using different
02:41:4702:41:47 - words for emphasis okay great let’s work with that then when when you make these arguments and you put in the rest of the
02:41:5602:41:56 - of of of the statements from the scriptures does it make sense no you find yourself still having to deal with
02:42:0402:42:04 - things that don’t fit together but once you just when you’ve taken all of these things together you you you come down to
02:42:1302:42:13 - there are three persons here and one of them is the spirit you it’s just a natural Fallout of the reading y I mean
02:42:2202:42:22 - specifically this passage uh you know we’ll get to the other thing uh soon enough talking about how there are three
02:42:2802:42:28 - distinct persons in the Trinity right we are not Mists as Christians we don’t believe there’s one God with three modes
02:42:3402:42:34 - or aspects this is a good passage for that actually because the passage makes no sense interpretation wise if you say
02:42:4102:42:41 - it’s all just the same being right um yeah well you know sufficient there too is our discussion I think um one more of
02:42:5102:42:51 - what I would call the slam dunk references that we’re going to go through here um this involves a passage
02:42:5602:42:56 - from the Old Testament being quoted in the New Testament and you’ll see why this is important in its reference
02:43:0502:43:05 - so this is Hebrews chapter 3 so the writer of Hebrews says therefore just as the holy spirit says today if you hear
02:43:1302:43:13 - his voice do not Harden your hearts as when they provoked me in the day of trial in the
02:43:1702:43:17 - wilderness uh and then so on talking about the hardness of Hearts of the generation that wandered in the
02:43:2402:43:24 - wilderness for 40 years so this is Hebrews chapter 3: 7 through 11 says therefore just as the holy spirit says
02:43:3002:43:30 - and then this is quoting Psalm chapter 95 and uh you know verse seven in Psalm
02:43:3802:43:38 - chapter 95 says for he is our God and we are the people of his pasture and the Sheep of his hand today if you would
02:43:4402:43:44 - hear his voice his being uh definite having the antecedent of God here um do not Harden your hearts as in marah as in
02:43:5302:43:53 - the day of mass in the wilderness so here his voice is said to be God and then when Paul quotes it or the writer
02:44:0002:44:00 - of Hebrews if you don’t take HEB to be Paul um says that the holy spirit says this the holy spirit is directly equated
02:44:0802:44:08 - with god um because it’s directly quoting uh this Psalm here like the wording that you see
02:44:1502:44:15 - here is like it it is I mean so Hebrews the book of Hebrews is written in Greek um Psalm 95 would have been written in
02:44:2302:44:23 - Hebrew whether it’s a direct quote from the seant or whether the writer of Hebrews paraphrased from the Hebrew
02:44:2902:44:29 - directly um either way I actually don’t know off the top of my head for this one which one it is um but either way this
02:44:3602:44:36 - is a very clear quotation of Psalm 95 and so that’s where we get the direct equivalence made between uh God’s voice
02:44:4402:44:44 - here uh in verse 7 of Psalm 95 and the Holy Spirit being the one speaking in verse chapter 7 of Hebrews chapter 3 or
02:44:5402:44:54 - sorry verse seven of Hebrews chapter 3 so uh this is actually one of my favorite passages for defending the
02:45:0302:45:03 - Trinity whenever I’ve had to engage with uh atheists and others about the Trinity I would always say especially those who
02:45:1202:45:12 - insist that the holy spirit is not a person and like well makesense you know right Mak sense of this and
02:45:2102:45:21 - again we we are not even close to exhausting all the references and scriptures to the persons of the Trinity
02:45:2902:45:29 - and you know all the all basically all the references that have anything to do with with the Trinity these are just a
02:45:3702:45:37 - sampling and some of them are really a very strong obvious sampling we if we correlate um Hebrews 3 with Psalm 95 we
02:45:4702:45:47 - can I think Psalm 97 sorry which one is it it’s Psalm 95 here yeah that’s Psalm 95 yeah so um if we if we were to put
02:45:5902:45:59 - them side by side we can see oh at least Paul takes uh the the the psalm to be referring to the Holy Spirit but you
02:46:1002:46:10 - know then you have people who have absolutely no respect for the Bible saying well Paul might have been wrong
02:46:1702:46:17 - there or we know that Hebrews has this problem or that problem so we can’t admit it as evidence or you know they
02:46:2402:46:24 - come up with all sorts of excuses for rejecting that um bottom line is in so far as you accept Hebrews as part of the
02:46:3202:46:32 - Bible you have to accept that the holy spirit is speaking with the authority of God and he’s speaking as a person there
02:46:4102:46:41 - so but then I what I found um really first of all I don’t like making I’m not interested really in persuading people
02:46:5002:46:50 - about what the scriptures teach and what they don’t teach I want to lay out exactly what I’ve seen in the Bible and
02:46:5602:46:56 - each person can make their decisions as say please but I’ve seen that when when I had to deal with arguments that were
02:47:0602:47:06 - about for example the um personality that that is that that the holy spirit is a person
02:47:1502:47:15 - when I’ve had to deal with that okay no when I’ve had to deal with the argument that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are
02:47:2202:47:22 - separate persons from the father it has been very very tough because if you were to present this passage to such a person
02:47:2902:47:29 - they would be like sure it’s still the father speaking we’re not saying that the spirit does not speak we’re saying
02:47:3402:47:34 - that the father and the spirit are the same so of course the spirit can’t speak well that that makes no difference you
02:47:3902:47:39 - know so those who are models so to speak wouldn’t have any problems dealing with these passages the spirit is speaking oh
02:47:4802:47:48 - sure the spirit speaks so what we’re not saying he doesn’t speak we’re just saying that he’s the father was saying
02:47:5402:47:54 - he’s the same as as the son and I’ve actually argued with someone I’ve debated someone who actually said look
02:48:0202:48:02 - that when Jesus went into the water and Rose up out of the water it was himself speaking from Heaven to himself and also
02:48:1302:48:13 - a lighting from heaven upon himself it was like how can you make this how does it work in your head all of this stuff
02:48:2302:48:23 - you can put it together in one mind and it works for you but that’s exactly how people can get when it comes to the
02:48:3102:48:31 - truth we have we can’t we can’t underestimate people’s um capacity to reject the truth and to make up their
02:48:3902:48:39 - own excuse their own um uh contortions and and Replacements and substitutions for the truth so what we
02:48:4902:48:49 - can say definitively without any doubt is that the Bible presents the Holy Spirit here
02:48:5402:48:54 - as speaking and as having a will of his own because he is reacting in a way that I mean a lot of people who like to think
02:49:0102:49:01 - of the Holy Spirit as retiring and shy and all of that would be pretty shocked when they actually see that what is
02:49:0702:49:07 - being said in Hebrews 3 is that he was angry with his generation and swore that they would never enter his into his rest
02:49:1402:49:14 - some something that seems to fit more um with the personality of the father than you would expect of the Holy Spirit and
02:49:2202:49:22 - yet this is the holy spirit of whom it is being spoken so um yeah everything we see here speaks to what we have seen in
02:49:3302:49:33 - the Bible that there are three persons and one of them is the holy spirit that’s that’s it yep well uh sort of
02:49:4202:49:42 - interesting aside here we know from Hebrews chapter four actually that the rest of God you know the continuous
02:49:4702:49:47 - Sabbath rest we actually enter that through the indwelling Holy Spirit now that we are all indwelt by the spirit in
02:49:5302:49:53 - the New Testament I’m not so far I’m not so sure I would go so far as to say that that is explicitly in view but you know
02:50:0002:50:00 - it does come right after Hebrews chapter 3 so interesting side note there um when he talks about my rest holy spirit is
02:50:0802:50:08 - the gatekeeper of that because it is through the spirit that we in the modern day um indwelt by the spirit re go into
02:50:1702:50:17 - that continual Sabbath rest of God that Hebrews chapter 4 talks about um so fun fact um so I’ll leave these verses up
02:50:2502:50:25 - we’ll come back to them um as we go through uh the next uh the next study which will be that there are three
02:50:3402:50:34 - persons in the Trinity but this was the last passage that we had here for um supporting that the idea that the holy
02:50:4302:50:43 - spirit is God I’m actually we have a verse from 2 Corinthians up on the slide as well 2 Corinthians 3:17 says that the
02:50:5002:50:50 - Lord is the spirit and where the Lord’s spirit is there is freedom um uh interesting that the Lord is the spirit
02:50:5702:50:57 - so modus would be cool with that but then the way it’s worded is that we have you know uh the Lord being possessive
02:51:0502:51:05 - here um so be probably genitive in Greek um before spirit so the Lord is the spirit and where the Lord’s spirit
02:51:1302:51:13 - is makes no sense unless they’re both God right um so all these verses as we have been
02:51:2102:51:21 - saying is not completely representative of literally all the references to the trinity in the Bible you know we’ve gone
02:51:2702:51:27 - across quite a few here with respect to the father and the son and the spirit um but the point is the Bible all over the
02:51:3502:51:35 - place supports this notion that the members of the Trinity are God um so uh a you have anything else else to say on
02:51:4502:51:45 - the spirit specifically uh before we close out this lesson uh no I think I think it’s it’s
02:51:5202:51:52 - it’s quite enough so far yeah okay good deal so now that we have finished discussing the spirit we have gone
02:52:0302:52:03 - through all three members of the Trinity talking through many verses supporting each so in this lesson we have been
02:52:1102:52:11 - talking about how all three me members of the Trinity are deity so God is one in essence but that does not mean that
02:52:2002:52:20 - only one person of the Trinity is deity or is divine or is God and so we’ve talked about how the father is God the
02:52:2602:52:26 - son is God and the Holy Spirit is God actually the very first thing that we had opened with was talking about how we
02:52:3402:52:34 - are going to be kind of examining what the Trinity is by pointing out things that it is not and so in this first one
02:52:4102:52:41 - the thing that we were pointing out that the Trinity is not is that just because God is one in essence doesn’t mean that
02:52:4702:52:47 - only one member of the Trinity is divine um or is deity and in the next lesson we are going to be picking up arguing that
02:52:5602:52:56 - even though God is one in essence he is still three in person so God is not one in person but three in person that is
02:53:0302:53:03 - going to be what our next lesson focuses on
All Members of the Trinity Are Distinct Persons
Video
Summary
This lesson’s main focus is examining the point that God is one in essence, but that does not mean that the Trinity is only one person (merely displaying three modes or aspects of Himself).
Timestamps
0:000:00 - Intro and outline
02:0102:01 - Key point: God is one in essence, but that does not mean that the Trinity is only one person (merely displaying three modes or aspects of Himself)
05:3205:32 - The Father is a unique person in His own right (for He is distinct from the Son)
10:5510:55 - The Son is a unique person in His own right (for He is distinct from the Father)
19:2819:28 - The Holy Spirit is a unique person in His own right (for He acts as a distinct person)
29:3029:30 - Summary and outro
Content
(Derived from https://ichthys.com/1Theo.htm)
Key point: God is one in essence, but that does not mean that the Trinity is only one person (merely displaying three modes or aspects of Himself)
God is three in person, and all three members of the Trinity (the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit) are distinct persons rather than manifestations of a single, multifaceted person.
Heresies of the past which have challenged the distinct personalities of members of the Trinity include modalism (the idea that Christ and the Spirit are mere “modes” of the Father’s personality), and docetism (the notion that Christ only seemed real and was in reality merely a phantom of sorts representing the Father’s plan). But the Bible teaches that all three members of the Trinity are distinct persons.
The Father is a unique person in His own right (for He is distinct from the Son)
I was looking during my vision of that night, and behold – with the clouds of heaven one like a Son of Man was coming up, and He approached the Ancient of Days [i.e, the Father] and they brought Him before Him.
The Son is a unique person in His own right (for He is distinct from the Father)
Behold, I have arrived – in the scroll of Your book it is written about Me – to do Your will, O My God.
(See Psalm 40:7-8)
The Holy Spirit is a unique person in His own right (for He acts as a distinct person)
And the Spirit helps us in our weakness in a similar way. For we do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us also with anguished supplications which words cannot express.
Video/audio transcript
00:0100:01 - all right guys so in the next lesson of our study of the Trinity here going through Bible basics part one theology
00:0900:09 - we are going to be talking about how all three members of the Trinity are distinct persons so in terms of the
00:1700:17 - essential points we’re going to be going over we’re going to be introducing this General Point uh talking about how even
00:2300:23 - though God is one in essence it does not mean that the Trinity is only one person merely displaying three modes or aspects
00:3100:31 - of himself um and so that is the point that we are making here um and if you recall we had discussed how the practice
00:3900:39 - that we are going through right now is kind of talking about what the Trinity is in terms of what it is not and so uh
00:4600:46 - this particular aspect um or this particular point in that uh sort of way of thinking about things that we are
00:5400:54 - organizing our study with uh is basically making the point that God is not just one one being God is three
01:0101:01 - distinct well I gotta be very careful how I say this God is one in essence so he is one being that’s what one in
01:0601:06 - essence mean but he has three persons um God is not one person um so if you recall the general definition of the
01:1501:15 - Trinity that we argue for is three in person one in essence or one in essence three in person and this is defending
01:2201:22 - the three in person part and so uh we don’t have quite as many verses this time as we did in uh the last section
01:2801:28 - going over all three MERS of the Trinity being God we just kind of have a one for most of these points here but we’re
01:3601:36 - going to be talking about how the father is a unique person is own right for he’s distinct from the son the son’s unique
01:4201:42 - person’s own right for he’s distinct from the father and the Holy Spirit is a unique person in his own right because
01:4801:48 - he acts as a distinct person so these are the points that we’re going to be going over as we establish uh The Wider
01:5401:54 - point that just because God is one in essence does not mean that the Trinity is only one
02:0302:03 - person so when we say that God is one in essence but not one in person um kind of what we’re getting at here is that
02:1402:14 - God uh sorry is that all three members of the Trinity are distinct rather than all being manifestations of a single
02:2202:22 - multifaceted person so um typically in theology um you’ll hear this referred to as modalism the idea that the son or the
02:3202:32 - spirit are somehow just modes of God um so uh that believe is is down here right here modalism um there’s another one
02:4202:42 - docetism the notion that Christ only seemed real and was sort of a phantom of sorts representing the father’s plan
02:4902:49 - probably not not quite as common um something that you might come up against in terms of the Trinity it is a
02:5602:56 - historical heresy relating to uh this particular point that we are making here but by far most common challenge to
03:0403:04 - proper understanding of the Trinity is this idea of modalism that Christ and the spirit are just modes of the
03:0903:09 - father’s personality rather than being separate persons in their own right um and just to take a step back and talk a
03:1603:16 - little bit about why do we even have to do this it’s because it’s really hard to think about how United the three members
03:2403:24 - of the Trinity are without getting the notion that they’re one person and the reason for that is because for as humans
03:3003:30 - if you take three people and you stick them together and even if they agree on so many things they do not have the sort
03:3903:39 - of unity that the Trinity has um the Bible’s very clear about that human beings we don’t share an Essence we are
03:4503:45 - not one in the same being even people like identical twins right um so the scientist would say that they have
03:5203:52 - identical genetic code yet it’s very obvious to us as humans that they are not the same they don’t have the same
03:5903:59 - way will if you will um so they don’t have the same human spirit is what we would say um they are separate beings
04:0604:06 - very obviously separate beings because they choose different things um they do not have that Unity of will that God is
04:1404:14 - said is having and so why we kind of have to spend some breath arguing this point that we’re making here is because
04:2004:20 - God is described as having one Essence being perfectly United in will and yet not just being one person and so we have
04:2904:29 - to spend some time on that not one person thing because for us as humans we don’t have a good analog in the human
04:3504:35 - world for this because anytime you have multiple persons you do not have the unity of will that God has said to have
04:4104:41 - and so it’s why it’s just kind of hard for us to kind of metabolize and why it’s worth spending some time talking
04:4704:47 - about it’s not just because there were some people in the past who didn’t believe this and and you were trying to
04:5304:53 - lead everyone away in heresy or whatever it’s it’s not as if this is just a historical thing that we’re kind of
04:5804:58 - covering because gwiz some people in the past were wrong it’s because it is actually difficult for us to
05:0405:04 - conceptualize in our head properly what it means for God to be three in person but yet have that Unity uh uh unity in
05:1205:12 - action that the Trinity manifests so this is the topic that we’re going to be covering here Audie do you have initial
05:2005:20 - thoughts on this point that we’re going to be making here before we jump right into establishing it for each member of
05:2605:26 - the Trinity not really I think we can okay great so picking up we are going to be
05:3705:37 - talking about how scripture is very clear that the father is a unique person in his own right because he’s distinct
05:4405:44 - from the son so I did kind of mention how we don’t have as many passages um given as support here for the last point
05:5105:51 - that doesn’t mean that these are any less certain uh truths that we ought to believe it’s just just we don’t we
05:5805:58 - haven’t listed as many here here um so the passage that we are going to be using here to support the notion that
06:0306:03 - the father is unique in his own right because he’s distinct from the son is this passage from Daniel chapter 7 verse
06:1006:10 - 13 so I’ll go ahead and read this and then we’ll talk about it a bit so Daniel 7113 says I was looking during my vision
06:1706:17 - of that night and behold with the Clouds Of Heaven one like a son of man was coming up and he approached the Ancient
06:2406:24 - of Days that is the father and they brought him before him well first him is Son of Man second hym is the Ancient of
06:3306:33 - Days so why are we using this to establish that the father is separate from the son is because the son of man I
06:4206:42 - mean I suppose you have to do some interpretation to get there um now Daniel is one of those eological texts
06:4806:48 - this is this is specifically prophetic here um but the son of man is Jesus Christ um when you interpret it when you
06:5606:56 - interpret it correctly that’s definitely who the son of man is um so the son of man is Jesus Christ the son in the
07:0207:02 - Trinity and the Ancient of Days when you interpret it correctly um again I suppose you have to do some L work to
07:0807:08 - get there but the Ancient of Days is very clearly the father um and so how can the son come before the father if
07:1707:17 - the son is the father it just makes no sense to say that um this doesn’t stop people from saying it but they’re just
07:2407:24 - wrong is the thing um because no matter how they try to explain this it always ends up getting all twisted and messed
07:3107:31 - up because it just doesn’t fit with what the text is saying how can you have one being who comes before himself in two
07:3907:39 - separate forms it just that’s not how that’s not how we say a being has that Unity right
07:4807:48 - um so how is one being split in actually two separate beings uh you know like for example when we face when we Face
07:5607:56 - ourselves in the mirror we understand that’s just the reflection of light we aren’t actually two separate beings but
08:0108:01 - what you would have to argue that God is one person it has two separate aspects of himself here is that there are one
08:1108:11 - being kind of manifesting in two ways at the same time which is kind of the very definition of what we would call
08:1808:18 - different persons right um so uh I don’t know maybe I’m not doing a very job in terms of like philosophical jargon
08:2608:26 - saying the right things in like a formal flow of logic but that’s the idea here that’s why we say the son cannot be the
08:3408:34 - father because it just doesn’t make sense given what this passage says aie would you like to add any points to what
08:4008:40 - I’ve started with um Can can you hear me yeah I can hear you can you all hear me yeah I can hear you can you hear
08:5008:50 - us okay um so uh I don’t I don’t I don’t think there is much to say actually in the previous discussion we
09:0109:01 - were having I think um many of those passages actually present this same discussion uh father being unique in his
09:1009:10 - own right being distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit um that’s actually how we know
09:1809:18 - because as you read through the Bible you keep seeing these things that don’t make sense when you think of God as a
09:2509:25 - single as a single person in his personhood you know some things that are said of him wouldn’t uh line up then um
09:3609:36 - so that we see that the father uh is demonstrated to be a person um by himself that makes sense the passage in
09:4609:46 - Daniel 713 um may not be very popular among Believers but it’s um there are many things in that Gem of a story
09:5609:56 - including how the Leake of fire is formed formed and all of that stuff but critically there was one who was like a
10:0410:04 - son of man who was brought to this Ancient of Days we know that the son of man being spoken of there was the Lord
10:1010:10 - Jesus himself and um the the ancient of these is is presented as being separate from this son of man so yeah it there
10:2310:23 - are other passages too in the Bible that that lead us to these um appreciations that um the father is a unique person
10:3210:32 - separate from the other two members of the um Trinity
10:3810:38 - yeah all right well that’s where we’ll do as I say just a single passage here for each member so this is the father
10:4610:46 - being distinct from the son um next we’re going to talk about how son is distinct from the Father which you kind
10:5110:51 - of get from this one we’ll look at another passage in just a moment so just as we talked about how
11:0111:01 - the father’s distin from the son well kind of it goes both ways but we’re going to look at another passage here
11:0711:07 - also on this particular uh Point saying that the son is unique person for he distinct from the father so uh for this
11:1511:15 - we’re going to look at Hebrews chapter 10 verse 7 um it says behold I have arrived in the scroll of your book it is
11:2211:22 - written about me to do your will oh my god um so and we open up more of the surrounding in context here in Hebrews
11:3011:30 - chapter 10 uh Hebrews chapter 10 verse 7 is where we are uh so the person speaking
11:3711:37 - here is Christ because that’s what verse 5 in Hebrews chapter 10 says so I’ll actually go ahead and read this whole
11:4111:41 - passage it says uh chapter uh chapter 10 verse 5 therefore when Christ came into the world he said sacrifice and offering
11:4811:48 - you did not desire but a body you prepared for me with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased then
11:5511:55 - I so I being Christ said then I said here I am it is written about me in the scroll I have come to do your will my
12:0412:04 - God so how would we say it makes sense for
12:1112:11 - Christ because Christ is the one Speaking here um to speak about so actually interestingly this is
12:2012:20 - NIV um in the translation here which I suppose comes from ichus we have a y
12:2912:29 - it might be pronoun there I could go check the Greek I suppose but basically either way I’m sorry that was just me
12:3612:36 - getting curious um the point being is that it’s very clear that Christ is saying that he came into the world from
12:4212:42 - the father’s will right the will of another we would say um although of course there’s one you know the unity of
12:4912:49 - the members of the Trinity means that when things happen they all will it because of that Unity but um this is
12:5512:55 - another passage supporting that idea that the personhood of the members of the Trinity sort of is just essential to
13:0413:04 - make the passages make sense because as soon as you start trying to argue that Jesus Christ is simply an aspect of the
13:1213:12 - father what does this passage in Hebrews chapter 10 even mean if you believe that um and uh you know more to the point if
13:2213:22 - we were supposed to understand it that way a lot of parts of the Bible just become really impenetrable um so so uh
13:2913:29 - there is a sort of uh risk we would say to trying to apply aam’s razor to interpretation large because there are
13:3813:38 - some points of biblical truth that are very complicated um so I’m going to use as a smear word here this is not a
13:4513:45 - positive term I’m going to say that things that seem really esoteric or mystical as in all people throughout
13:5213:52 - history have like misinterpreted this passage and only I have the correct interpretation when people say that sort
13:5813:58 - of thing especially if it bounds into something that we would sort of call mysticism or this idea of very special
14:0614:06 - knowledge this this new way of looking at something and yet no matter how much you press them they can’t like formulate
14:1214:12 - it in terms of propositions it’s always sort of vague and hard to understand and and impenetrable is a good word yeah you
14:2014:20 - shouldn’t believe that sort of thing right and here the point I’m making is that trying to interpret this passage
14:2614:26 - trying to interpret the passage that we had just read um in the previous section talking about Daniel chapter 7 trying to
14:3414:34 - interpret these passages with the father and the son being literally the same person it just doesn’t make sense um so
14:4214:42 - people like I said they may try to talk circles around you and explain thus and so and and you know basically and not
14:5014:50 - that I have had very many serious debates uh among Christians or you know people at least claiming Christ about
14:5614:56 - this because to be perfectly honest nowadays there aren’t that many Mists I mean they’re out there AI has has said
15:0215:02 - that he’s actually had serious conversations about it before but what I’m trying to boil this down to is that
15:0815:08 - when you try to interpret these passages while making them the same person it just makes everything so complicated and
15:1715:17 - so not straightforward so that everything requires explanation that it is just obviously not the right
15:2215:22 - interpretation um so uh hopefully that’s not too handwavy um I think this is quite clear just how I think Daniel
15:3015:30 - chapter 7 is quite clear um aie do you have further thoughts on this
15:3715:37 - [Music] um not quite I think that this passage um always appealed to me
15:4515:45 - because of um how uh in uh the reference the the part of the law that this was taken from um we have a different
15:5715:57 - rendering there yeah instead of um uh okay it was from the PS actually in
16:0516:05 - the sum it said that my did it say a body you had prepared for me my ears you have pierced that’s
16:1416:14 - what it said and uh when you when you look at the part of the law that it was referencing it says that a servant who
16:2216:22 - says that he does not want to leave you no he he is very happy to be part of your family and he wants to
16:3116:31 - remain so for the rest of his days um you’re supposed to pierce his ear uh with an all um and that would be uh like
16:4116:41 - a way to tell anyone who sees him that he belongs to a particular house even though he’s not related to that house by
16:4816:48 - Blood maybe something of that sort so um what we see is this uh a body you have prepared for me that used to stump me a
16:5716:57 - bit but then when you relate these two ideas it really comes down to um you get um this body that I have is meant to be
17:0817:08 - used in service to you so like this person opted for Lifetime slavery this Jew who had his ear pierced
17:2117:21 - um here the Lord Jesus is is expressing the same thing which of course I think should be rather
17:3117:31 - obvious as to uh how it it says that um he is not the father that he’s a separate person from the father I mean
17:4017:40 - there are still those who do believe that since it is God anything is possible so he can um be a sleeve to
17:4617:46 - himself but then yeah I I don’t see how that fits yeah I I will say I don’t know why I I must have missed it or something
17:5417:54 - because the slide obviously says your will right I I must have just misspoken earlier
18:0018:00 - because this has your too and I checked the Greek this is the second person pronoun here your um it makes the
18:0718:07 - argument real straightforward because the will that Christ discusses In this passage here is not his right it’s not
18:1618:16 - my will it’s your will right second person it literally you know how we have persons in grammar it is using a
18:2418:24 - separate person in grammar um hence more than one person in the Trinity right um yeah you know like it it’s it’s really
18:3218:32 - that simple um because if Christ can speak of the father’s will as being not my will not his own
18:4218:42 - will they simply cannot be the same person um it’s it’s I I don’t know what I was getting at earli I must have just
18:5018:50 - like been looking at something that was wrong but it is the second person pronoun which makes that argument real
18:5618:56 - straightforward um yeah yeah all right now as we’ve said before um just as in the other section these are not the only
19:0419:04 - passages we could pull to support these things we’re just kind of making the points as we go along here so this was
19:1019:10 - establishing that the son is distinct person from the father right we’ve done that um so we did that in Daniel chapter
19:1719:17 - 7 we were I guess kind of coming at it from the perspective of the father Hebrews chapter 10 coming that from the
19:2219:22 - perspective of the sun next we will be talking about the spirit and the spirit’s distinct personhood
19:3219:32 - so now we’re going to talk about how the holy spirit is a unique person is well in his own right for he acts as a
19:3919:39 - distinct person so the passage this time again we got one verse per these points here uh just in this part of the study
19:4719:47 - passage this time Romans chapter 8 verse 26 um says the spirit helps us in our weakness in a similar way for we do not
19:5519:55 - know what we ought to pray for but the spirit himself self intercedes for us also with anguish supplications with
20:0120:01 - which words cannot express right um so passage this actually comes right before the uh uh for knowledge you know like
20:0920:09 - the end of Romans chapter 8 I think it’s like verses 29- 31 talk about you know like uh God’s for knowledge and calling
20:1720:17 - justifying glorifying that that passage but talking about how the spirit prays for us he intercedes for us and when we
20:2520:25 - pray you know we we pray to the father in the name of Jesus Christ I could go find verses to support that what I just
20:3120:31 - said um but when we pray we pray to God um addressed to the Father the spirit is interceding for us how can the spirit
20:4220:42 - intercede to the father shall we say if the spirit is the father you see what I’m saying like it
20:5020:50 - again this is one of those situations where you start trying to argue for a modalist position and it just doesn’t
20:5720:57 - make sense because you ask someone what does that mean
21:0221:02 - precisely like basically redu you ad absurdum is what we would call it in terms of logic if you say that the
21:0921:09 - spirit is the father and the father is the spirit and that there is you know one God and one God means one
21:1621:16 - person what does this verse mean then if you interpret it that way and you will just never get a satisfying answer out
21:2421:24 - of someone if you press them on that because there isn’t a satisfying answer like they can go through all the
21:3021:30 - gymnastics as I’ve been arguing and you know um you know it might have been good if I went and actually tried to find an
21:3621:36 - argument here so that it wasn’t just me saying oh some people actually say this but you know like I had a representative
21:4221:42 - argument from one of them but the point that I have been making and uh maybe maybe it sounds like I’m straw Manning
21:4821:48 - here but the point is if people try to do that presumably they have some way to say that this verse doesn’t mess up
21:5521:55 - their interpretation but no matter what they say it’s going to be overly long and complicated and just obviously not
22:0122:01 - right is the point now uh because again uh I feel like the spirit is one of those that
22:0922:09 - sometimes it’s perhaps the one that we struggle the most with um when we talk about aspects of the Trinity um I pulled
22:1622:16 - up this verse this is one that we talked about um at the very beginning of the last lesson as well when we were talking
22:2122:21 - about how all three members of the Trinity are God here um so this is when Jesus is asking the father
22:2822:28 - uh for the holy spirit so he’s telling the people in John chapter 14 uh verse 16 so I will ask the father and he will
22:3622:36 - give you another Advocate to help you and be with you forever that Advocates the spirit Jesus is asking the father to
22:4422:44 - give another person I feel like if there’s one verse in the Bible that makes clear that there are three persons
22:5222:52 - in the Trinity it’ be this verse right um for the reasons that we been saying before right if if there’s one person in
23:0223:02 - the Trinity what in the world would this verse even mean then yeah one person I am asking myself to send myself how does
23:1123:11 - that make sense right yeah um yeah of course uh as we said there are those who would essentially say that because he’s
23:2023:20 - God we won’t understand one mysteries of God and all of that stuff it doesn’t have to make sense to us but um like we
23:3023:30 - said this this is not something we see in isolation the rest of the Bible speaks to it but this is a demonstration
23:3723:37 - of the um uh personhood of the of the spirit as a separate thing from the personhood of
23:4423:44 - the father and the personhood of the spirit of of the son sorry so he essentially says just as we we we the
23:5323:53 - Bible tells us that that he intercedes that is he prays for us he prays on our behalf he makes requests on our behalf
24:0224:02 - to who to himself just as Paul as Stephen pointed out that
24:1124:11 - is insane to think that he would be making requests to himself but some people are fine with uh Insanity when it
24:2024:20 - comes to God because they believe that because he’s God nothing makes sense with him and everything is acceptable of
24:2824:28 - everything makes sense no matter how ridiculous it is but this is the Bible’s one of the Bible’s
24:3424:34 - demonstrations of uh the personhood of the spirit as a separate thing from the personhood of the other persons of the
24:4024:40 - Trinity yeah yeah I mean I would say not to get off on too big a tangent but we are right to hold philosophy at arms
24:4924:49 - length a bit I know we talked about this in some of the the first lessons in this series here in in bb1 theology uh making
24:5724:57 - the point when people split hairs about nature and Essence and what essential characteristics are and things like that
25:0225:02 - right would God be God if he wasn’t ex right or you know what I’m talking about like that sort of thing where
25:1025:10 - philosophers they they they make certain boxes about things and I’m not trying to bash philosophers here right um uh or
25:1825:18 - philosophy large as a practice of being Analytical in how we think about the world and things like this but we as
25:2425:24 - Christians we submit to the Bible not to the Wom of professional secular philosophers and there is something to
25:3325:33 - be said for not swinging too far the other way which is submitting to what we would call a mystical understanding
25:4025:40 - where you know for lack of a better word God’s elogical but we just say well that’s just that’s fine you know because
25:4725:47 - we can’t understand him um this is the whole you know I’m trying to think about the right way to say this you know
25:5425:54 - perhaps uh certain very well educated atheists might might think that Christians are kind of dumb right they
26:0026:00 - are anti-education they can’t talk intelligently about topics because they just say oh have faith and then they
26:0726:07 - never even articulate their own positions um I am not trying to bash our brothers and sisters here because the
26:1426:14 - Bible says we are we ought to have childlike Faith right for lack of a better way of putting it childlike faith
26:2126:21 - is not dissertations in analytic philosophy right um you see what I’m saying um yeah so we don’t need to be
26:2826:28 - ashamed of being like well the Bible says so so there um you know however where I’m going with this is that this
26:3826:38 - idea that we have to believe nonsense because that’s what it is right fundamentally what we’re talking about
26:4426:44 - here where these people say that the spirit intercedes to himself it’s just nonsensical on the face of it it’s like
26:4926:49 - a contradiction on the face of it right um yeah so we ought to have childlike faith in the Bible but we don’t turn off
26:5726:57 - our brains to believe whatever someone says the Bible says um you know you know Audi and I have had a conversation quite
27:0627:06 - recently actually I’m talking about in interpretation when we talk about we need to take the Bible at its word right
27:1327:13 - and we need to be reasonable um uh you know I I won’t pull in the whole context of that P other
27:1927:19 - discussion but basically when we interpret the Bible we have to interpret it reasonably and the
27:2627:26 - point here is that how just how other people get offended when you take their words out of context and you try to make
27:3327:33 - their words mean something that they obviously don’t mean well we need to stake down our flag and call people out
27:3927:39 - when they do that to the Bible too right because there are certain lines that we just can’t cross when it comes here and
27:4727:47 - saying somehow that the spirit interceding to himself because the spirit is is the father and the father’s
27:5427:54 - the spirit it’s one of those lines where when when people start going there I mean like you got to stick down
28:0228:02 - a flag somewhere right and like I said God does not submit us he God does not have us believe nonsense um despite that
28:0928:09 - being a strawman argument that atheists might use against Christians is that I don’t know we don’t think things through
28:1528:15 - maybe we don’t hold intellectually rigorous positions their straw man in
28:1928:19 - Christianity is what’s happening there um yeah yeah all right so um perhaps more we could about um holy spirit’s
28:2928:29 - distinctness as well so we talked about Romans 826 we pulled up this verse in John chapter 14 as well talking about uh
28:3628:36 - Jesus Christ uh you know asking the father to send the spirit and how honestly this verse kind of hits all
28:4228:42 - three of them right is that the only way in which this verse makes any sort of sense is if all three of them are
28:4728:47 - persons um because otherwise you have you know the son who is the father asking the father for to send the father
28:5528:55 - right if you view them all in terms of one person it just what does that even mean right it doesn’t make sense it
29:0129:01 - contradicts itself on the face of it it’s why that interpretation is unworkable um
29:0729:07 - so that’s probably where we’ll wrap our discussion here of the idea that the spirit is well is a unique person in his
29:1629:16 - own right for he acts distinctly right he intercedes for us before God when we pray which wouldn’t make any sense if he
29:2529:25 - wasn’t a distinct person so as promised this lesson a little bit shorter here not going to go belver too
29:3729:37 - much of what we talked about uh but just in review we have talked about how all three members of the Trinity are their
29:4529:45 - own unique persons so even though God is one in essence that’s this main point we’re talking about here God is one in
29:5129:51 - essence that does not mean that the Trinity is only one person but it has as three persons and we’ve talked about
29:5929:59 - these passages that just on the face of it clearly support this idea that even though God has this Unity of will this
30:0730:07 - single Essence um he cannot be the same person because then how could the son of man approach the Ancient of Days as a
30:1630:16 - separate person how could um Jesus Christ in Hebrews chapter 10 be talking about the father’s will right um how uh
30:2630:26 - things about Christ were written in your will um and how could the Holy Spirit here be interceding for us when we pray
30:3430:34 - if the holy spirit is the exact same person as the father for example um so those were some of the passages we
30:4030:40 - brought in to support this topic but the general overarching idea and as we said this is not meant to be completely
30:4730:47 - exhaustive um you know I guess I should also mention this verse that we talked about in John Chapter 14 verse 16
30:5230:52 - another one where the son asks the father for the spirit to be sent all of these all of these things point to the
30:5930:59 - clear conclusion that even though God is one in essence God is not one in person um and so that’s where we’ll wrap this
31:0831:08 - and uh in future lessons we will be examining a couple more of these uh of these statements about what the Trinity
31:1531:15 - is not so that once we finish it all we will have that clear understanding of exactly what the Trinity is
All Members of the Trinity Are Coequal, Coeternal, and Consubstantial
Video
Summary
This lesson’s main focus is examining the point that God is three in person, but that does not mean that there is any inferiority or disparity of status, activity, or substance between the members of the Trinity.
Timestamps
0:000:00 - Intro and outline
01:2401:24 - Key point: God is three in person, but that does not mean that there is any inferiority or disparity of status, activity, or substance between the members of the Trinity
06:1606:16 - They all possess a full and equal share of the status of deity
13:2913:29 - They all possess a full and equal share of the eternal function of deity
42:2642:26 - They all possess a full and equal share of the substance of deity
57:3557:35 - Summary and outro
Content
(Derived from https://ichthys.com/1Theo.htm)
Key point: God is three in person, but that does not mean that there is any inferiority or disparity of status, activity, or substance between the members of the Trinity
In any human association, there is always inherent inferiority and disparity present—in practice, if not perhaps on paper. People are separate beings, and these are the simple consequences of that. However, this is not the case for God; the Trinity shares completely perfect unity and equality.
God is one in essence and all three members of the Trinity (the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit) are coequal, coeternal, and con-substantial partners in one and the same essence. Heresies of the past which have challenged the coequality of members of the Trinity include subordinationism (which alternatively asserts that either Christ or the Spirit is by nature inferior to the Father) and Arianism (which teaches a Christ not entirely equal in divinity to the Father). But the Bible teaches that all three members of the Trinity are coequal partakers of the same essence.
They all possess a full and equal share of the status of deity
As seen from the equal rank accorded to each in the formula for profession of faith at the point of spiritual (not physical) baptism into the body of Christ:
Then Jesus came over and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me, so go and make all nations my followers by baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and by teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you.”
They all possess a full and equal share of the eternal function of deity
As seen from their joint participation in creation:
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our pattern.
They all possess a full and equal share of the substance of deity
As seen from the attribution of goodness to all three members in the apostolic benediction of 2 Corinthians, where grace (the policy of the goodness of God), love (the natural consequence—or “emanation”—of the goodness of God), and fellowship (the ultimate result of the goodness of God) are respectively attributed to the Son, the Father, and the Holy Spirit:
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God [the Father], and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Video/audio transcript
00:0000:00 - all right guys so this lesson we are going to be talking about how all members of the Trinity are co-equal
00:0700:07 - co-eternal and consubstantial and so in other lessons we have talked for example about how the
00:1500:15 - three persons in the Trinity are distinct persons um so uh the father is not the same person as the son is not
00:2300:23 - the same person as the spirit and having established that what we’re going to be talking about now is primarily that
00:2900:29 - there isn’t any inferiority or disparity of status activity or substance between members of the Trinity so that is in so
00:3800:38 - far as we have three persons in the Trinity there isn’t any sense of uh what we might term inferiority between them
00:4700:47 - and so we’re going to be establishing this as we say through status activity and substance so uh kind of in that
00:5400:54 - order we’re going to be talking about how they all possess a full and equal share in the status of deity a full and
01:0001:00 - equal share in the Eternal function of deity so that would be the activity and then a full and equal share in the
01:0601:06 - substance of deity and so we’ll get into a little bit more what we mean by these things maybe they sound a little bit
01:1201:12 - abstract as we go through Point by point but first we’ll be starting off talking about the general concept here that
01:1801:18 - there isn’t any inferiority or disparity between the three members of the Trinity so as we say starting out with
01:2901:29 - here the key point for this lesson is that even though God is three in person that does not mean that there is any
01:3701:37 - inferiority or disparity of status activity or substance between the members of the Trinity now just by way
01:4401:44 - of introduction and I believe we’ve raised this point before in our past oops in our past discussions um this is
01:5201:52 - something that is very difficult for us as humans to understand because within Human Society human relationship ships
02:0002:00 - anytime you have two humans humans do not share the same Essence I think we talked about this a
02:0602:06 - little bit humans are dichotomus made up of body or flesh and spirit and so whenever you have two humans in the
02:1502:15 - world they are inherently not United in the same way that God is um and they have what we would call disparity right
02:2402:24 - maybe they have peculiar strengths and weaknesses um you know they have their personal tendencies in the same way that
02:3002:30 - we have three persons in the Trinity but unlike Human Relationships the Trinity does not have um any hint the slightest
02:3802:38 - hint of uh unequal relationships between the members um and as I say this is just sort of a hard concept for us as humans
02:4702:47 - to wrap our mind around because it’s so very different from how we relate to each other um so I saying that that’s
02:5402:54 - also what is here on the slide so I’ll just go ahead and read this it says in any in human associations there’s always
03:0003:00 - inferiority or disparity of status activity or substance always people are separate beings and these are the simple
03:0703:07 - consequences of that however this is not the case for the God because the Trinity shares completely perfect unity and
03:1403:14 - equality um and so breaking that down a little bit more um as we will get uh more into next time so we’ve already
03:2203:22 - talked about the distinctness between the persons um and in the lesson after this one we’ll be hitting this point
03:2703:27 - here about uh sharing the Essence more um but on account of sharing that Essence the three persons in the Trinity
03:3503:35 - are co-equal co-eternal and consubstantial Partners um and what that means um obviously equality meaning they
03:4403:44 - are all uh you know there is no inferiority between them um co-eternal they are all equally existent outside of
03:5103:51 - time they share in the attributes in the nature and character of God that we kind of opened this study in uh uh part one
04:0004:00 - of Bible basics going over theology in uh so that would be the infinite nature of God and the perfect character of God
04:0704:07 - and consubstantial sharing the same substance the same Essence which is what we will continue to go through all of
04:1504:15 - these three things um are true even despite the members of the Trinity being their own persons um so as we’ve gone
04:2504:25 - through um some of the other things in our progression here of explaining the trinity in terms of things that it is
04:3104:31 - not we’re also going to mention a couple heresies on this particular topic um specifically the notion of equality um
04:4004:40 - heresies of the past which have challenged the co-ee equality of members of the Trinity include so-called
04:4604:46 - subordinationism uh which alternatively asserts that either Christ or the spirit is by nature inferior to the father so
04:5404:54 - just so happens and uh most of these uh positions of false teaching or heresy that the person who is elevated is the
05:0205:02 - father and the person who is uh reduced in status would be the son or the spirit now of course that none of these are
05:0805:08 - true that just happens to be the consistent pattern of the false teaching and aryanism specifically came from a
05:1605:16 - guy in history named Arias uh and aryanism teaches that Christ was not entirely equal in Divinity to the father
05:2405:24 - um so uh kind of depending how far you take that that’s either he is Divine but somehow not equal um in status or he
05:3305:33 - simply isn’t Divine at all um so he for example believing he was just a human being um but as I say these are the
05:4105:41 - false positions and we are defining our understanding of the trinity in terms of what these are not so unlike these false
05:4805:48 - positions we believe that the Bible teaches that all three members of the Trinity are co-equal partakers of the
05:5405:54 - same Essence that is there is no difference in status between the three persons of the Trinity so this is sort
06:0206:02 - of the point that we’re setting out to discuss in this lesson here and uh kind of given that introduction Audi is there
06:0806:08 - anything you want to say um as we get into this topic no I think you covered it pretty well all
06:1806:18 - right so perhaps the easiest of these uh Notions to grasp is this idea of status and so as seen in the rank accorded to
06:3006:30 - each in the formula for profession of Faith the point of spiritual baptism into the body of Christ it’s kind of a
06:3506:35 - mouthful but this is the Great Commission at the end of Matthew chapter 28 um that is when Jesus Is Telling um
06:4406:44 - the disciples uh kind of how to baptize people into the body of Christ spiritually speaking um so in that
06:5106:51 - profession here um which is very very clearly deal dealing with the concept of authority um that is um this
07:0007:00 - uh it’s the right way to say it it’s not like a a magic incantation um but this formula through which uh baptism was
07:0907:09 - rendered um and again we’ve emphasized continually that the preposition in these verses is into not in um so not in
07:1707:17 - the name of but into the name of into the person of God that is the focus is on spiritual baptism into the body of
07:2407:24 - Christ rather than uh merely being cleansed with water physically um well in this profession which turns very much
07:3307:33 - on Authority the father and the son and the spirit are given completely equal billing um and so that is basically uh
07:4107:41 - the purpose of including these verses at the end of Matthew chapter 28 is showing that when we uh are discussing the three
07:5007:50 - members of the Trinity um here in context for the purpose of uh kind of like in the authority of of God um
07:5807:58 - that’s how we are saying we um are rendering a person uh United with the body of Christ you know it’s not on our
08:0608:06 - own authority um but it is on the authority of God that we do this well all three members of the Trinity are
08:1308:13 - spoken of as basically having equal status here um they are spoken of as having the authority uh by which this
08:2108:21 - action is performed AI do you have anything you want to add to this yeah um not much really
08:3008:30 - um sorry um I think it’s uh it’s quite sufficient
08:3708:37 - to say like you said that uh the Matthew 28 verse um vers 19 to 20 uh
08:5008:50 - uh passage really does speak to um spiritual baptism we have Ephesians 4 I think verse two or three um guaranteeing
09:0409:04 - that because it essentially says there’s one baptism only and uh we have to decide whether that is the baptism of
09:1009:10 - water or it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit and Acts chapter one tells us through the words of the Lord Jesus
09:1909:19 - himself that um we are um although although John’s baptism was the baptism of water his baptism was that of the
09:3009:30 - spirit um so we have multiple places in the Bible that tell us that the baptism that Jesus was speaking to had to be the
09:4009:40 - baptism of the spirit and that’s critical to understand Matthew 19 verse Matthew 28: 19 and 20 um if we
09:5009:50 - appreciate that there is just one baptism and that that is what the Lord Jesus is speaking to then we will know
09:5609:56 - this is not um three of course this is hardly an issue I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone uh being confused about
10:0610:06 - whether Jesus was saying were to have three separate baptisms obviously he was talking about one and he said it’s it’s
10:1410:14 - in English in the name of the father and of the son and of the spirit I mean if we were to go with the English we’ still
10:2010:20 - say it’s one name of the father and the son and the spirit um not one name of the father another of the son another of
10:2810:28 - the spirit it’s one name and then again if we deal with it according to the Greek and at least the old way of
10:3910:39 - understanding the word name um we would know it’s talking about the
10:4510:45 - person persons of the father and the son and the spirit and what that would point out to us is that Jesus is saying that
10:5610:56 - essentially you are baptized into three persons now if they’re not all equal it would be demeaning to have one
11:0511:05 - associated with the other two inferior ones so it seems pretty straightforward that
11:1311:13 - uh this baptism of the spirit essentially means that we are being associated with the Trinity with three
11:2311:23 - persons who are utterly equal to each other and there is no you said inferiority between them yeah that’s now
11:3311:33 - I think this point of the name here being singular uh we’ll get to that like I said all of these things that we’re
11:4011:40 - talking about they’re all related to each other and it’s not like we need to draw artificial barriers of separation
11:4711:47 - between our discussion of the Trinity we’re just looking at it from multiple angles um but just to rip on this a bit
11:5411:54 - the fact that there’s one name goes right in accordance with this point that just brought up about uh if one member
12:0112:01 - were above the others it would be demeaning um for this profession to be kind of stated in equality here well but
12:0912:09 - even more so if they share the same name if they share the same name because there’s one name here name in Greek in
12:1712:17 - this verse is singular it’s not plural and the name is obviously shared between the three members of the Trinity because
12:2412:24 - the word for name is not repeated three times in the Greek um that is it’s not the name the father and the name of the
12:2912:29 - son and the name of the Holy Spirit as if there were three names there is one name here and for God to be represented
12:3712:37 - by the single name how could it be that one member of the Trinity um were greater than the
12:4612:46 - others yet they all share the same uh the same name the same identifier um I just you know I I think that’s
12:5512:55 - another inferential argument you know especially in so far as as I mentioned that this verse is talking about
13:0113:01 - Authority right um you know we are yes we are baptizing them into the person of God and and through that teaching them
13:1113:11 - um you know like after they become members of the body of Christ teaching them to observe everything um you know
13:1813:18 - as we’ve said before um the Bible presupposes these things it states these things it doesn’t argue for them um and
13:2513:25 - this is a prime example of that very true so the next topic that we are going to
13:3413:34 - discuss here uh sort of on the shared equality and Eternity and substance of God is kind of talking about this idea
13:4413:44 - of Eternal function of deity uh the actions that God takes within creation so the verse that Dr luginbill uses in
13:5213:52 - the study uh is talking about creation um and you know what you can actually see typo in the slides here I copied the
14:0114:01 - scripture quotation here and then I changed the verse but I didn’t change out the verse up here so this is wrong
14:0614:06 - this is in Genesis of course um here let me Google this real quick and uh I’m sure it’s Genesis one probably 126 yeah
14:1614:16 - so that’s what that header should be I’ll fix that before I post them um so quoting Genesis chap 1 verse 26 not
14:2614:26 - Matthew 28 again um when God says this let us make Mankind in our image in our likeness so note the first person plural
14:3614:36 - here um and of course Audie and I have discussed this before in our recordings here on the Trinity uh this is one of
14:4414:44 - those things uh where God being plural in the Hebrew Elohim um not God singular um you know perhaps the the Jews or the
14:5414:54 - early Jews thought of it as a plural of majesty you might have heard that grammatical notion before uh is made
15:0115:01 - plural to show how great and Majestic God was but it also kind of leaves that question mark at the back of one’s head
15:0815:08 - of well what does it mean for God to be plural um and then that’s of course where the Trinity and the explicit
15:1515:15 - teaching of the New Testament helps fill this in for us but where we’re going with this in terms of the Eternal
15:2115:21 - function of deity in terms of the activity of deity is that the three members of the trinity all participated
15:2915:29 - within creation um in fact we can see this um uh if you recall in the first couple verses of Genesis you know in the
15:3815:38 - beginning God created the heavens and the Earth um we know from various places in Scripture that Jesus Christ was the
15:4415:44 - agent in creation that’s what John chapter 1 uh the first few verses of the Gospel of John tells us um so Jesus
15:5215:52 - Christ was the agent but then we have and the spirit of God was hovering over the waters first several verses of
15:5715:57 - Genesis still spirit is involved too um you know especially in so far as he is the one uh within creation who is
16:0716:07 - presently restraining evil um so when the Restraint of the holy spirit is removed I believe it’s first
16:1516:15 - Thessalonians or second Thessalonians I don’t remember which one um that talks about the removal of restraint um well
16:2316:23 - things are going to happen on account of that um Holy Spirit active role in maintaining the order within creation
16:3116:31 - and of course everything handled under the authority of the father uh the planner the architect um so this is an
16:4016:40 - example here in Genesis chapter 1 verse 26 ignore this um talking about the creation of man specifically but it also
16:4816:48 - holds for creation generally it also holds for uh God’s plan in the Redemption of mankind um so just as
16:5716:57 - another example um the when Jesus Paid for human sin upon the cross obviously um the son in the Trinity fully God yet
17:0817:08 - fully man um Peter tells us that he bore our sins upon his body on the tree um but that was only made possible through
17:1617:16 - the Holy Spirit and the father was the one who accepted the payment so um we might aduce multiple other examples
17:2417:24 - where all three members of the Trinity play this crucial active role in the working out of God’s plan throughout
17:3417:34 - human history throughout creation um and so this is what we mean by they have an equal share in the Eternal function of
17:4117:41 - deity um they are all uh God in so far as and and they all share equality in so far as when God
17:5117:51 - affects his plans all of them have an equal role to play even if it is not the same role um so so in this way there
18:0018:00 - isn’t any difference in status there isn’t any difference in the activity of deity um as if for example one person in
18:0818:08 - the Trinity uh has to do all the things while the other people in the Trinity aren’t involved somehow um and just to
18:1618:16 - keep pushing this idea of how different this is for us as humans right no matter what within Human Relationships there’s
18:2318:23 - kind of a give and take maybe it in any given point in time um so anyone who’s ever worked on a group project in school
18:3018:30 - knows exactly what I’m talking about um does everyone completely equally pull their
18:3618:36 - weight you know even if we do our best even if the other members in your group are not lacking in their
18:4318:43 - motivation inevitably it’s just it doesn’t happen however that is because we are humans not God and God in his
18:5218:52 - plans always operates in unity between the three members of the Trinity um mm
19:0119:01 - yeah so the passage you mentioned earlier was actually 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 um about the working of the
19:1019:10 - holy spirit so I don’t think there’s very much else to say the Bible does annunciate on every I mean I think that
19:1819:18 - that passage in Genesis chapter one is it’s it’s a brilliant light on it let us make man in our own image I’ve heard
19:2719:27 - Jo Witnesses argue that that was God speaking to the angels which was very interesting very interesting argument to
19:3419:34 - make that God would essentially be what um enlisting the angels in the creation of man but then it goes along with their
19:4419:44 - own um conception of Jesus Christ as a god even though of course they don’t publicly wed themselves to polytheism
19:5519:55 - they don’t believe in multiple gods except that Jesus has to be one in order for John chapter one verse one to make
20:0120:01 - some sense to them so I I think um the Bible enunciates on every page I mean uh I think it’s um
20:1420:14 - Isaiah chapter 9 where it talks about the spirit of God the spirit of this the spirit of that and all of the all of
20:2120:21 - that being upon um um
20:2820:28 - the anointed one so we see multiple things multiple places in the Bible I I think it’s worth
20:4020:40 - repeating that we’re not we’re not making uh would I say an argue on I don’t know how to put that but
20:5120:51 - because yes we are making making an argument yes that that teaching is being developed but essentially
20:5820:58 - this is this is the say the Bible says this and that and that and that’s why we claim this so it’s not like oh there’s a
21:0721:07 - trinity and now we have to go to the Bible to make a case for it it’s more like if you read the Bible it basically
21:1721:17 - presents the Trinity as a given and in functionality we see the same thing it it takes a lot of work like um I think
21:2621:26 - that there is there are probably better ways that one can demonstrate how much work it takes
21:3321:33 - to dismiss this than what the Jehovah’s Witnesses had to do they basically had to retranslate the Bible to eliminate
21:4321:43 - evidence of the Trinity and to recast basically a number of doctrines
21:5221:52 - but particularly the Trinity that’s one thing that they take a lot of issue with and you find that even with their
21:5921:59 - retranslating of the Bible they can’t get away from it they still have to deal with it I should add
22:0622:06 - that this translation business that we’re talking about it’s not merely that they made some different interpretive
22:1222:12 - choices here they mistranslate according to objective principles of grammar shall we say you know they do violence to the
22:2222:22 - translation and like AI said still kind of has to be like that to make things work Con
22:2822:28 - um and we pointed this out before um you know and I think it’s very good that we’re emphasizing it that the Bible
22:3522:35 - speaks as if it is true in fact the better way to put it is if any of these points that we’re going over in this
22:4122:41 - entire series uh you can kind of prove them through what is typically known as redu you ad absurdum if you say this
22:4922:49 - point is false and then you go try to read passages in the Bible it just doesn’t work um so this point that we’re
22:5622:56 - on right here if if you try to say that somehow uh all members of the Trinity are God and they’re all somehow equal to
23:0423:04 - each other but they aren’t equal to each other in the Eternal function of deity in the salvation of mankind in the
23:1223:12 - working out of God’s plan throughout human history then in what sense can they be said to be equal how how do all
23:1723:17 - these passages that talk about the various things that the members of the Trinity have done throughout human
23:2223:22 - history how do those work then um you know and of course there are things we don’t know like so for example um just
23:3123:31 - as we humans have a hard time seeing in human relationships like for example that between a commanding officer in the
23:3823:38 - military and his soldiers is there equality there uh given that one of them has adopted in their position the one
23:4623:46 - giving orders right um and I think maybe this is maybe this is something worth discussing a bit um in so far as within
23:5423:54 - the roles of the Trinity the father is typically seen as has put it before as the representation of deity um as the
24:0224:02 - one who plays the part of deity uh to the world um so that’s why he is in the third heaven separated from sin um
24:1124:11 - because he is the face of deity shall we say um but these roles that do exist um it’s not uh one of a difference in
24:2224:22 - status um it is merely a role um and we will talk about rol of the Trinity more that is a future topic of conversation
24:3124:31 - so we sh get too sidetracked here but where we’re going with this again is simply that if you start removing uh
24:3924:39 - kind of like I think the game’s called Jenga right where you remove blocks and once you remove enough blocks the tower
24:4524:45 - just inevitably falls down um most of these things that we’re talking about you don’t even have to remove a bunch of
24:5224:52 - them before it stops working you just remove one or two and suddenly large parts of the Bible spe specifically the
24:5824:58 - New Testament just don’t make sense anymore there is no way to reconcile the passages uh I mean you can do your best
25:0525:05 - to go through interpretive gymnastics to explain how this actually means that and whatnot but it just it just obviously
25:1225:12 - doesn’t feel right and that’s what happens when you start trying to Monkey around with fundamental conceptions of
25:2025:20 - three persons one essence or one Ence three persons it just makes large parts of the interpretation of New Testament
25:2725:27 - Passage that that mentions the members of the Trinity just no longer work
25:3425:34 - yeah yeah and I I I I I don’t think we can go through every single instance um where the Bible demonstrates the um
25:4625:46 - Eternal function of each member of the Trinity but like he just said if anyone
25:5525:55 - bothers to do the the SoCal well the scientific test of um trying to falsify the arguments that we are making
26:0826:08 - essentially and we go okay the spirit is not he’s not um a member of the Trinity because
26:1926:19 - his function does not fit or something like that then you start to interpret everything that the Bible says that the
26:2826:28 - spirit actually does in terms of that the whole Bible becomes nearly chaotic and
26:3926:39 - insensate that’s what would happen do the same to the Lord Jesus and this is actually why this is one way that you
26:4526:45 - can very quickly tell what um um uh religions or sects are really not Christian even if they claim to be
26:5826:58 - let’s use the ones we’ve named for example jov’s Witnesses they reject the Holy Spirit as a person refuse to accept
27:0727:07 - the Lord Jesus as God so let’s talk about how that works in terms of the work of
27:1627:16 - Salvation who what are we being saved from sin against to God and how are we to be saved from sin do they accept that
27:2827:28 - the Bible says essentially that we’re in helpless situation we cannot redeem our own selves we are
27:3627:36 - all have fallen short of Grace there is no we cannot fix what we have broken it’s broken it’s spilled milk there’s
27:4527:45 - nothing we can do about it okay so if we accept that to be true and I believe the translation of the
27:5127:51 - Bible does next thing we have to ask is how then is this um um damage in our relationship to God
28:0228:02 - to be fixed well God has to do something himself according to the Bible I am your savior and there is no
28:1628:16 - savior besides me that’s what the Bible says God himself claimed that he is the only one who is the savior that makes
28:2228:22 - sense it makes sense because who else is going to save us now they claim that some Angel was able to save us
28:3128:31 - okay how is an Angel going to be able to save us exactly what is the sacrifice that
28:3928:39 - require to save us it has to be a sacrifice that matches the sin talking about from God’s
28:4728:47 - perspective there is nothing nothing that we can do nothing that we can offer the way that the Bible puts essentially
28:5628:56 - is that a man can not save himself by with his own life or and he cannot pay the price for
29:0229:02 - another that’s how I think it’s in some I don’t remember the the chapter now so we are in a very bad a very bad spot and
29:1229:12 - essentially we have learned whatever needs to be done is going to be massive an ordinary human being can do
29:1929:19 - it why do we think an angel would be able to pay the price for our set especially given that there is only
29:2929:29 - one Savior and there is none discip so Jesus comes and he dies on the cross and somehow that is
29:4029:40 - enough we are still looking at the part of the Bible that I think is also translated correctly in their own Bible
29:4729:47 - which says that there is no savior besides me God how then do we reconcile the fact that someone’s sacrifice was
29:5629:56 - able to save us if that person is not God we start to have craziness and of course the enter the
30:0530:05 - gymnastics which is essentially oh no no no no he’s not the the Savior it’s because someone else sent him that that
30:1130:11 - person is the real savior he’s just the tool for the Salvation okay so he can’t claim to be the Savior what about
30:1730:17 - Matthew chapter 1 Matthew chapter 1 essentially says he will be called Jesus because he will save his people from
30:2430:24 - their sins so essentially he’s going to be called SA that’s literally what his name is okay
30:3030:30 - so how do you make sense of that no no no no it doesn’t really mean this and that so basically let’s forget what the
30:3630:36 - Bible says to accommodate what you say what about the holy spirit Bible tells us that it is through him that this
30:4430:44 - eternal sacrifice was offered I think how how was it put who through the eternal spirit offered himself up that’s
30:5130:51 - how the Bible said it was not Eternal sacrifice it was through the eternal spirit this sacrifice was made the
30:5730:57 - eternal spirit what a word what a term to use now remove the spirit from this
31:0531:05 - picture remove him as a person now you’ve already come into a lot of trouble just by doing that the claim of
31:1231:12 - the holy spirit is not even a person much less a member of the Trinity so if we were to adopt that mindset that he is
31:2031:20 - not a person he is not um uh a member of the Trinity then what about everything that the Bible
31:3031:30 - says about his part in Salvation the fact that he convicts us of sin now this is an impersonal Force
31:3931:39 - somehow able to persuade us that we are sinful very interesting thing to do but of course they try to use the loophole
31:4931:49 - that he is God’s Force so he’s not a a person he’s just something that God us uses to mess with with our consciences
31:5831:58 - and get us to appreciate that we’re sinful people and then Jesus himself was going to pay a terrible price on the
32:0832:08 - cross and he was going to do it through this Force I mean at a certain point we are
32:1532:15 - in sci-fi land where things don’t seem to be what they are they they they don’t make sense so that’s what happens once
32:2532:25 - we start looking at things from perspective of trying to falsify the Trinity once we
32:3232:32 - remove the the claims of the Bible that the that Jesus is God that the holy spirit is not only a person but also God
32:4232:42 - himself all of a sudden a lot of things that would otherwise have made sense become
32:5032:50 - nonsensical and that is why the Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t really believe for all their claim and they do
32:5832:58 - claim it they don’t really believe that reconciliation to God results from the sacrifice of Jesus they believe it comes
33:0733:07 - from the works that they do now there’s another set that works exactly the same way the Roman Catholic
33:1633:16 - church talk a good game but because they don’t appreciate exactly who did what they end up in a place where they talk
33:2533:25 - about Grace as if it were asert would put it angel dust that is sprinkled on you to make you look good so essentially
33:3633:36 - it’s it’s this thing that that that is sprinkled on you it’s not that God has given you a gracious gift that is an
33:4533:45 - extremely generous person who has brought you back into fellowship with him in spite of the fact that you have
33:5133:51 - done everything wrong and caused yourself to be out of fellowship with him no it’s this sprinkling of angel
33:5933:59 - dust on you to make you good and what you’re supposed to do is continue to take the sacraments and do this and that
34:0734:07 - to keep the grace flowing once you cut out the functions that is essentially saying what this
34:1634:16 - person does as God Almighty everything starts to fall out and just basically enter chaos and
34:2734:27 - Madness it doesn’t make sense anymore it doesn’t matter that you claim to believe that your your sin was paid for by
34:3334:33 - Jesus’s sacrifice you don’t even know who Jesus is you don’t even know who made the sacrifice possible and
34:3834:38 - therefore in the end you assume a lot of responsibility for something you are completely unable to do I mean let me
34:4534:45 - just jump in I don’t I don’t want to completely interrupt your flow but just say a couple sentences what we’re
34:5134:51 - talking about with respect to atonement Theory salvation itself this is one of of those Eternal functions of deity that
34:5834:58 - human beings uh you you’ve gone through this um in the way that you’ve approached talking about how these sects
35:0535:05 - they get things wrong here right but one of the things that’s so pervasive about legalism is that human beings somehow
35:1435:14 - are claiming that they have the function of Salvation just think about how insane that is right and this is why we call it
35:2035:20 - the the magic Grace dust that somehow by what we do we can have that Grace flowing from God rather than it being
35:3035:30 - God himself and and and like we said for all appearances for all accounts people will say this with their lips but then
35:3735:37 - it’s a matter of what do their positions imply how do they have to read certain passages in the Bible to make it not
35:4435:44 - contradict actually it’s one of those things that sometimes I never understand because some of what we’re talking about
35:4935:49 - like you said even though the Jehovah’s Witnesses butcher certain parts of their translation it still gets you most of
35:5635:56 - the way there like you know like you can argue with them in their translation and you can still get to the point where you
36:0436:04 - kind of need the Trinity same deal you know the Roman Catholics they don’t even mutilate the Bible um it’s one of those
36:1036:10 - things where all these verses well Roman Catholics for the most part have those same verses in their Bibles too right um
36:1736:17 - yeah how does it work you know that but you know people manag to twist it somehow or another and it’s part of that
36:2536:25 - is by imputing some of these things that are functions of God Alone to things other than God right to sacraments or
36:3436:34 - salvation or priests although the Catholic church is like less blatant about that nowadays like as in they’ve
36:4236:42 - backed off a little bit from you have to be a member of the Catholic Church otherwise you’re not even saved and you
36:4736:47 - have to take Catholic mass every Sunday otherwise you’re not even saved and things like that because you know that’s
36:5236:52 - bad PR but um that sort of thing yeah what does that have to do with our record Being set straight in the eyes of
37:0037:00 - the almighty it just doesn’t of course of course that’s that’s exactly the point that once we we lose sight of of
37:0837:08 - the function of the persons each person of the holy of the of the Trinity what what essentially results is that Madness
37:1637:16 - and that chaos one thing that just occurred to me as you were speaking was also the fact that when it comes to to
37:2537:25 - what scientific this is another place to that you see what a world view of the Trinity can do to you now we we hear
37:3537:35 - this in the Bible he that is in you is greater than he that is in the world right that is really really big thing to
37:4337:43 - say and in fact this is why being a believer in these days after the cross is such an amazing thing that for the
37:5037:50 - first time um since human history after Jesus died we know have God basically residing in US permanently that’s a very
38:0138:01 - big deal so you have God in you but because obviously the holy spirit is not God you can see what what results from
38:1238:12 - people just ignoring His function the fact that he is God is why Bible says that he works in you that’s a very
38:2138:21 - interesting thing it actually puts it this way for it is God who works in you both to Will and to do of his own good
38:2738:27 - pleasure so you have God himself residing in you working with you to Will and to do of his good pleasure but now
38:3638:36 - it’s not God it’s just some Force residing in you and what results from that well if I’m going to do good things
38:4538:45 - it’s up to me if I’m going to get anything right it’s up to me you’re not relying on him because after all that’s
38:5338:53 - not God I mean it just but just think about it for a second you know this verse that you quote here on the face of
38:5938:59 - it you could argue that maybe the Holy Spirit was a created thing that just happened to be greater than Satan okay
39:0739:07 - you know like philosophically it works but like you said other places in the Bible talk about God working within us
39:1339:13 - so now you have to argue that God is in us and this other person who’s not God but is yet greater than Satan is also in
39:1939:19 - us right you have to because both of those things are said in scripture right that’s the position you have to take if
39:2739:27 - you don’t believe that the holy spirit is God and then how do you know it’s one versus the other you know like again as
39:3339:33 - we’ve been emphasizing these problems are inescapable the second you start going down that path you bump into them
39:3939:39 - head first um yeah yeah that’s the bottom line really y so you know I’m not we have
39:4839:48 - gone through some good examples I mean I should emphasize that Ai and I we could probably keep going all day here right I
39:5439:54 - know you gave a couple good examples off the top of your head you know of various uh people going down
40:0040:00 - this path to one extent or another but this is the consequence of not accepting the all three members of the
40:0940:09 - deity in full all three members and how they all interact to do these things in the plan of human Redemption um so
40:1840:18 - whether that was uh the sacrifice on the cross sanctification those are two examples we brought up now all three
40:2540:25 - members of the are integral to these things that affect human salvation um and so we can’t be
40:3440:34 - wishy-washy on this right um this is why the Trinity is rightly and properly considered one of the core doctrines of
40:4240:42 - Christianity um there are certain things that maybe we call debatable that you get wrong you can still be a Christian
40:5040:50 - right understanding who Jesus was what he did and the nature of God how is sacrifice was on this is some of the
40:5840:58 - fundamental stuff right yeah so and that is one reason I should emphasize why uh getting one of these things wrong makes
41:0741:07 - a whole bunch of scripture not work right because to a greater or lesser extent right uh we know that everything
41:1341:13 - in the Bible should be interpreted by everything else in the Bible that is the contextual approach we need to take when
41:1941:19 - we interpret scripture but there are certain doctrines when if you get them wrong it messes up a whole lot more
41:2541:25 - things than other right this is one of those that yeah if you get the Trinity wrong it messes up
41:3141:31 - all sorts of things in a way that some other doctrines maybe you get something wrong
41:3741:37 - and it messes up two or three places not the entire New Testament um that’s why we call this core and Central though so
41:4541:45 - yeah that’s true that’s true all right well good discussion here this is why it’s important for us to acknowledge the
41:5441:54 - full share of the activity of God the Eternal function of deity that the members of the Trinity possess because
42:0142:01 - all three are integral so creation is the example in Genesis chapter 1 Dr luganville used we’ve talked also about
42:0742:07 - as I’ve said um about Redemption on the cross as well as sanctification and there’s others as well where God works
42:1442:14 - together the three members of the Trinity to affect his plan for human salvation um so that is where we’ll wrap
42:2242:22 - this one and in the next one we’ll be talking about substance so the last point that we’re going to be
42:3242:32 - making here in this lesson is talking about the equal share in the substance of deity so thus far we’ve talked about
42:3942:39 - status and the Eternal function or activity now we’re talking about substance we don’t want to get too
42:4542:45 - bogged down here in uh maybe what we might call the technical jargony specifics um but the verse that Dr
42:5442:54 - lugabill uses for this one comes from 2 Corinthians chapter 13:14 and this is one of those
43:0143:01 - benedictions now those of you who’ve watched this series all the way through um might remember it might be more
43:0743:07 - recent in your memory where some of the verses that we included upfront in our discussion of the Trinity we talked
43:1343:13 - about how it comes up in uh the benedictions as here um and kind of the salutations the the greetings and
43:2143:21 - letters um you know so for example in the very first part of 1 Peter chapter 1 um we hear a mention of all three
43:3043:30 - members of the Trinity um chosen according to the for knowledge of God the Father through the sanctifying work
43:3643:36 - of the spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ all through members of the Trinity right um but here specifically
43:4243:42 - looking at this idea of substance of deity this is what Dr L bill says so as seen from the attribution of goodness to
43:5043:50 - all three members in the apostolic benediction of 2 Corinthians so um if you recall one of the so-called
43:5743:57 - essential characteristics of God that we discussed previously was that God is good uh that is a characteristic of
44:0644:06 - deity um of the essence of God and so this verse is talking about what we shall call manifestations of goodness so
44:1544:15 - Grace is the policy of the goodness of God right we talked about that already love is the natural consequence or
44:2244:22 - emanation of the goodness of God and fellowship is the ultimate result of the goodness of God all of these are
44:2944:29 - respectively here attributed to the son the father and the Holy Spirit and the benediction so the grace of the Lord
44:3644:36 - Jesus Christ the love of the father um I guess we’re saying that that is implied right um because we have Lord God and
44:4544:45 - then Spirit right we like you know cuos is the word for Lord in Greek and that refers to Jesus Christ and I’m assuming
44:5244:52 - I don’t have the Greek in front of me but I’m assuming this is Theos and this is is numos the the word for Spirit um
44:5944:59 - sorry Numa it’s neuter um and so those probably be the words here but all three members of the Trinity have this
45:0845:08 - characteristic goodness that Define them as God of all sharing that Essence uh which has as one of its characteristics
45:1645:16 - goodness um as an essential quality of deity um so if this sounds familiar it kind of should um because as I said all
45:2545:25 - of these things are uh kind of uh they all support each other right we’re not trying to say new things here we are
45:3345:33 - just coming at this discussion of the Trinity from all the angles we possibly can and so when we talked about the
45:3945:39 - essence of God before we were establishing what the essence of God was what we are now doing in this particular
45:4545:45 - lesson that we’ve been going through this time was establishing that all three members of the Trinity now that we
45:5145:51 - have uh determined that there are in fact three persons in the Trinity well all of them equally share in the
45:5845:58 - consequences uh in the essential characteristics of the essence of God because as we’ll see in the next lesson
46:0546:05 - that we go through all three of them are equal partakers in that Divine Essence so that’s where we get the three persons
46:1246:12 - one Essence from right now we’ve been going through how all of them have the same status Eternal function or activity
46:1946:19 - and substance coming about because they all share that same Essence which is what we’ll cover in the next one but on
46:2646:26 - account of that this verse goes right through and says that all three members of the Trinity um have this eternal
46:3446:34 - quality of goodness um in the way that Dr lville has kind of filled in here and that’s why we say that all of them
46:4146:41 - possess that equal share in the substance of deity any points to Riff on here
46:4846:48 - Audie I’ve been trying to think um I’ll admit this bit is a bit more complex for me but it it does make sense how he laid
46:5746:57 - things out that Grace is the policy of the goodness of God it’s the generosity of God
47:0347:03 - um I mean God did have the right as God to withhold his generosity I mean essentially because he is God the
47:1347:13 - creation he makes exists at his whims so he didn’t have any need whatsoever to do anything for anyone was not under any
47:2247:22 - obligation to do so but Grace essentially is saying um even if I’m not obliged to do anything for you now we’re
47:3147:31 - talking whether just in the in the business of first creation or it is um in the business of redemption
47:4247:42 - Redemption was after sin the business of first creation was before sin um we see that Grace play out in the particular
47:5047:50 - way for example that God even caused us to exist in the first place was an act of generosity if we didn’t exist we
47:5847:58 - wouldn’t have any opportunity whatsoever to enjoy and experience the Marvel that is God and God is marvelous and he is an
48:0948:09 - amazing gift that you know to be given um so if if he did not create us and share
48:1948:19 - himself with us or offer us this opportunity to be with him then I mean he didn’t have to and he did it anyway
48:2848:28 - and we sin we fall short of that generosity of his and he does not deem it necessary or even right to just wipe
48:4048:40 - out creation he could do that doesn’t have to tolerate our sinfulness but he still goes on to
48:4748:47 - redeem us to offer us again an opportunity to be part of his eternal family to enjoy him forever which is
48:5748:57 - amazing right so all of this um it’s the goodness of God in the sense that that is how God actually defines his goodness
49:0549:05 - as deity himself it doesn’t have to be that way so but as we know if deity was not like this then nothing would exist
49:1449:14 - that’s actually how that works so um then the the the love of the father I actually tend to find myself edging in
49:2349:23 - the direction of how God is love and basically I Define all of God’s character in terms of his love but it
49:3049:30 - does make sense too to see um love as a natural consequence of the goodness of God so instead of being the call from
49:3849:38 - which this goodness is actually demonstrated it’s it’s a consequence of that goodness because God is innately
49:4649:46 - good because he is innately good I don’t think there’s any other way I mean and of course the purpose of this particular
49:5449:54 - one was to show how all three members of the Trinity possess the goodness characteristic of
50:0050:00 - God um they possess it equally right um and how it works out so that we can say that there isn’t there’s no inequality
50:0850:08 - there is no one person of the Trinity gets it while the other doesn’t that is kind of the purpose of this lesson in
50:1450:14 - the series yeah that that’s that’s the point here I think that the reason like I said what I’m actually exploring is
50:2050:20 - the complexity of this uh passage in my mind you know well is God good because he loves us or does God love us because
50:3050:30 - he’s good I mean you know it’s one of those things where you’re right the Bible says that God is good and the
50:3750:37 - Bible says that God loves us and so yeah you know a very human thing to try to start to to go through right but yeah
50:4550:45 - but but when when the the point that um you know the grace of the Lord Jesus the love of the of God and The Fellowship of
50:5250:52 - the holy spirit all come together is that that is uh pretty obvious because again it’s like the name of the father
51:0051:00 - and the son and the spirit thing when you associate three persons in this manner
51:0751:07 - you’re essentially putting them on a level it’s very hard to say things like um uh May the kindness of the president
51:1651:16 - and um the generosity of uh maybe the the chief of Army staff or something I mean by the time you start counting down
51:2651:26 - it’s like why are you putting all these people together I mean if I have the kindness of the president I don’t need
51:3351:33 - to have the generosity of the chief of Army staff because the president covers that right so but when you have um the
51:4351:43 - love of of of the Lord Jesus and you have the the um sorry the grace of the Lord Jesus and the love of God the
51:5151:51 - Father And The Fellowship of the holy spirit is essentially saying all the these three have to agree and they they
51:5951:59 - they have to agree in the sense that the three of them are separate persons and their Authority is equal to each other
52:0752:07 - so it makes sense to think of it in that way well let me not do too much exploration of this but it’s something
52:1452:14 - that has been playing out in my head for a while yeah now I will say of course as we we went through a good bit in the
52:2152:21 - last one how everything falls apart uh in interpreting the trinity you know in finding in scripture if you ignore
52:2752:27 - certain bits of it but this one I think is so false just on the face of it imagine if you were to argue that one
52:3452:34 - member of the Trinity was not inherently good just think about it right it’s complete nonsense how how how can that
52:4252:42 - even work given what we know from scripture right that absolutely if only the father and the son wanted the best
52:4852:48 - for us and somehow the spirit didn’t you know like come on who who would Empower everything right and and of course it
52:5452:54 - would not make sense and light of the scriptures given what the spirit has done sure you know I don’t think people
53:0153:01 - that’s not their Vector of attack most of the time right but that’s what we mean when we say they share the
53:0553:05 - substance of deity right because the same thing holds for all of the other characteristics of God that we talked
53:1153:11 - about if you say that I mean for example that the father and the spirit are Eternal but not the son because the son
53:1853:18 - took on a human nature that’s actually a much more common attack that is getting at this one here right that they are you
53:2553:25 - know consubstantial because what this is getting at is that the son is co-eternal
53:2953:29 - with the father and the spirit right you know again that’s what we’re going through here co-equal co-eternal
53:3453:34 - consubstantial if you say that the son doesn’t have the same substance as the father and the spirit he’s not God in
53:4153:41 - the same way so to speak then people start throwing out eternity you know like the the um eternality of the Sun
53:5053:50 - the second person of the Trinity and then you get all sorts of theological problems so yeah um sort of they’re not
53:5653:56 - made of the same substance I think that was why I was actually interested in complexity of this thing because but I
54:0354:03 - think the point that he is making essentially is that if we were to describe God in terms of a substance he
54:1054:10 - is good that’s his substance his goodness and we see that through Grace Jesus is is is associated with that
54:1954:19 - substance he he has it and through love the father has it through fellowship and all of these things are like three
54:2854:28 - emanations or three sort of like like I mean he used the word policy in another place examination and in another place
54:3654:36 - he says the result but all of them are like the outworking in some way of this goodness of God this substance this
54:4354:43 - thing and it makes sense too given that Jesus did say no one is good but God that is like at the core definition of
54:5154:51 - what God is in terms of his substance there’s also life of course but then I think this makes sense you can use this
54:5854:58 - to see like you said that all three of them um share in this substance and you cannot speak of God being good and
55:0855:08 - somehow remove Jesus from that okay I think that that that that has called something back to mind for me um there’s
55:1755:17 - often that argument that Jesus never claimed to be God because there’s this passage where he said no no one is no
55:2555:25 - one is good except God and they say well if he was God he would have said there that he you know except me or accept God
55:3455:34 - and me or something but then Jesus didn’t say he wasn’t good he said no one is good but God and once you once you
55:4555:45 - you you take into account another thing too that he said in another place which of you can accuse me of sin that was a
55:5255:52 - very big claim he was making I don’t have any sin so I am good there you go too so when you put these things
56:0156:01 - together it does lead to the fact that to the extent that we’re seeing that God’s substance is this goodness Jesus
56:1056:10 - shares in it so does the spirit so does the father and if you were to eliminate any of them from this like you said a
56:1956:19 - lot of things in the Bible would no longer make sense would on the particular passage of Jesus saying that
56:2656:26 - only God is good it’s actually it’s kind of fun to think about it now that you brought it to mind Jesus could it would
56:3256:32 - have been factually correct to say that he was himself good because he was because he’s God but from a theological
56:3856:38 - perspective actually his statement is very true in that God all three members of the Trinity are good right absolutely
56:4656:46 - and we see that right there right now um so it would have been fine if Jesus had said that he was good because that’s a
56:5056:50 - true statement it’s also a true statement that God is good what’s interesting is that God is good is
56:5656:56 - actually broader than Jesus is good because all three members of the Trinity are God um so exactly
57:0357:03 - exactly yeah okay that’s my spio right all right well that’s where we’ll cut here so just as with the
57:1257:12 - function Eternal function of deity the activity of deity all three members of the Trinity possess equally this so we
57:1957:19 - have them being co-equal co-eternal and consubstantial there isn’t any difference in status in terms of how
57:2757:27 - they function in terms of the characteristics of God they share that has been the focus that we’ve had in
57:3457:34 - this lesson so just to recap the lesson that we’ve gone over this week we have been
57:4257:42 - talking about how even though there are three distinct persons in the Trinity that does not mean that there’s any
57:4957:49 - inferiority or disparity of status activity or substance between them um that God shared s in all of this the
57:5657:56 - members of the Trinity are co-eternal and co-equal and consubstantial um and so in this we’ve
58:0358:03 - gone through the status of deity um they all have the authority of God they are all mentioned here in the Great
58:1158:11 - Commission um as being the person in whom we are baptized mentioned in the same breath um we went over how Genesis
58:2058:20 - 126 um uh when God talks about the creation of man that it is something that all three members of the Trinity
58:2758:27 - have this hand in so too with our Redemption and also our sanctification and other processes of Salvation shall
58:3658:36 - we say uh within God’s plan for creation all members of the Trinity have this core part to play um and we also talked
58:4458:44 - about how all three members of the Trinity share the same substance they have those essential characteristics um
58:5058:50 - goodness was the example we used here um but some of the things relating to God’s nature as well for example his Infinity
58:5858:58 - um so his his omnipotence his omnipresence his omniscience all three of those things apply to all members of
59:0459:04 - the Trinity and that’s what it means for them to be consubstantial to have the same substance so this is what we have
59:1059:10 - been going over in this lesson here in the next lesson we will be talking more specifically about this one Essence bit
59:1959:19 - so we have now talked about the three person bit right that was the lesson before this one establish ing that there
59:2559:25 - are three distinct persons in the Trinity the next time we’re going to be talking about how they share one Essence
59:3159:31 - uh AKA why we don’t worship three Gods but why we worship one God in three persons that is what we are going to be
59:3959:39 - talking about next time
All Members of the Trinity Are Joint Partakers of the Same Essence
Video
Summary
This lesson’s main focus is examining the point that God is three in person, but that does not mean that the Trinity is composed of three (or more) different “gods”.
Timestamps
0:000:00 - Intro and outline
01:5401:54 - Key point: God is three in person, but that does not mean that the Trinity is composed of three (or more) different “gods”
15:3715:37 - The Father is revealed to be uniquely God
18:5718:57 - The Son and the Father are revealed to be uniquely God
24:0624:06 - Regarding the notion of us being “small G gods”, what words are used for such in the Greek and Hebrew?
30:3230:32 - The Holy Spirit and the Son and the Father are revealed to be uniquely God
41:2441:24 - Summary and outro
Content
(Derived from https://ichthys.com/1Theo.htm)
Key point: God is three in person, but that does not mean that the Trinity is composed of three (or more) different “gods”
God is one in essence, and all three members of the Trinity (the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit) are the sole, joint partakers of that same essence rather than three similar beings of similar essence. All so-called Christian sects which elevate saints and angels to the status of divinity essentially belong to this heretical category (after the manner of pagan pantheons, which also possess numerous “deities” of lesser and greater rank). But the Bible teaches that all three members of the Trinity alone share the same unique essence:
The Father is revealed to be uniquely God
You were shown these things so as to know that the Lord, He is God, and there is no other besides Him.
The Son and the Father are revealed to be uniquely God
I and the Father are one.
Some things I’ll add here in addition to this one verse Dr. Luginbill quoted, to emphasize even more that the Son is One with the Father and the Spirit, being God:
- Colossians 2:9
- Philippians 2:6
Regarding the notion of us being “small G gods”, what words are used for such in the Greek and Hebrew?
This is a video-only section.
It is elohim in Hebrew (see אֱלהִים), and theoi in Greek (see θεοὶ).
The Holy Spirit and the Son and the Father are revealed to be uniquely God
I will ask the Father, and He will give you another comforter to be with you forever – the Spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive, for it neither sees Him, nor knows Him. But you know Him, for He abides with you, and will be in you.
Some things I’ll add here in addition to this one verse Dr. Luginbill quoted, to emphasize even more that the Holy Spirit is One with the Father and the Son, being God:
- 2 Peter 1:21
- Acts 5:3-4
- Matthew 28:19 – “name” here is singular, not plural. And it is also not repeated for the Son and the Spirit; i.e., there is one name and it equally applies to all three.
Video/audio transcript
00:0000:00 - all right guys so this week we are going to be going over uh this topic here about how all members of the Trinity are
00:0900:09 - joint partakers of the same Essence so all three members of the Trinity share the same Essence the same being and that
00:1700:17 - makes them United in a way that means basically that they aren’t three separate Gods they’re not three separate
00:2400:24 - beings and so these are the points we’re going to be going through here in the summary um just as a reminder we been
00:3000:30 - going through uh some points basically establishing things that the Trinity is not and that is throwing into sharper
00:3800:38 - relief what the Trinity actually is so we’ve kind of been uh knocking down some of these heresies that have cropped up
00:4400:44 - in the past examining uh all this scripture that supports the points that we’ve been making uh to kind of throw
00:5100:51 - into sharper relief what the Trinity actually is and so this particular point we are noting that God is three in
00:5900:59 - person um we’ve established that that was a a past week we did uh that the three members of the Trinity are
01:0501:05 - actually um separate personal or the three three separate persons um but that does not mean that the Trinity is
01:1101:11 - actually composed of three or more different gods three separate beings and so that’s because they share the same
01:1801:18 - Essence and that’s what we’re going over this week so we’re going to be looking at how the father is revealed to be God
01:2301:23 - the Son and the father are revealed to be uniquely God and then all three are revealed to be uniquely God um and so
01:3001:30 - this will overlap a good bit with the lesson in the study that we did where we established that all three members of
01:3801:38 - the Trinity are God because well all three are God and God is one so it’s kind of the same thing but nonetheless
01:4601:46 - we’re going to hit this to establish the point that just because God is three in person does not mean that we have three
01:5301:53 - separate Gods so this is the overview point that we’re going to be making here that God
02:0202:02 - is three in person but that does not mean that the Trinity is composed of three or more different gods and so
02:1002:10 - again as we’ve gone over the traditional definition of the Trinity is that God is three in person but one in essence or
02:1602:16 - one in essence but three in person and so that means that all three members of the Trinity so the father and the son
02:2302:23 - and the spirit are the sole joint partakers of the same Essence and that’s a big
02:3002:30 - uh technical perhaps but what that means is that they are all they all share the same being the same Essence rather than
02:3702:37 - being three similar beings of similar Essence and uh we talked a little bit in our last lesson about how these
02:4502:45 - attributes these characteristics that are part of God’s nature so God’s infinite nature and God’s perfect
02:5202:52 - character uh those are things coming from uh the the essence of God that we went over
03:0003:00 - in the earliest lessons in this study of theology proper and we’ve argued that um all three members of the Trinity have
03:0703:07 - equal share in those uh last time we were talking about how there’s not any inferiority or disparity in status um
03:1303:13 - activity or function um uh because all three members of the Trinity share this Essence and those are characteristics um
03:2203:22 - of the essence of God and because all three members of the Trinity share that Essence all three members of the Trinity
03:2803:28 - are characterized by these things um and so that’s what we mean by them having the same Essence rather than having
03:3403:34 - three similar beings of similar Essence um and so among other things uh some of these attributes like infinity and
03:4203:42 - omniscience and things like this um something that makes our conception of God very unique among world religions is
03:5003:50 - that there really only can be one God um from a logical sense the uncaused cause if you will how can you have more than
03:5803:58 - one uncaused cause um so we don’t want to get super philosophical about it but this idea that uh God is this unique
04:0704:07 - being um you know we emphasized his sovereignty and his uniqueness um in our past studies of his Essence all of this
04:1304:13 - is rolled up into the idea that God there can only be one um being of this of this sort however there’s three
04:2104:21 - persons but they all share the same Essence and so maybe it just sounds like we’re asserting things here we’ll get to
04:2704:27 - some scripture in some of the slides here but um throughout history uh many sects or
04:3404:34 - uh groups of people you know maybe who even profess Christianity have elevated other things so either human beings
04:4204:42 - Saints or angels to somehow maybe they don’t even call it Divinity like they would not put them on equal footing with
04:4904:49 - God but they they put them on higher footing than normal human beings and this is not okay it’s not good because
04:5704:57 - we know that only God is good that human beings You know despite uh May the fact that maybe some human beings make good
05:0505:05 - choices and are exceptional Believers they’re still just human beings right um and so uh we want to flee far away from
05:1405:14 - anything that smacks of pantheons of maybe demigods or elevating Angels worshiping Angels worshiping other human
05:2305:23 - beings I mean how about worshiping Mary uh you know like as certain Cults have done throughout history
05:3005:30 - uh none of that is okay because there’s only one God and he’s the only one whom we should worship um so in saying this
05:3905:39 - where we are going with this particular point this week is that even though the Bible teaches that the Trinity has three
05:4605:46 - persons we are not saying that there are three gods that there’s multiple gods and there’s no room for there to be
05:5305:53 - anyone other than the three members of the Trinity um kind of as part of this as part of the being who we worship so
06:0306:03 - that’s my bit of a rambly introduction here a do you have any other initial points you want to make on what we’re
06:0806:08 - talking about this week okay just to jump off of what you’re saying and U I think it is it is worth um getting a
06:1906:19 - tad bit philosophical about this because the Bible is very very emphatic about the fact that God is one um when it says
06:2906:29 - that it seems like an assertion and this is of course for us as Believers we take what the Bible says as true so if it’s
06:3806:38 - Asser things that’s fine but other people would say well how do we know that there is one God and this is where
06:4806:48 - the philosophical reasoning might come into play and the sense the the reason that that might matter is this God is a
06:5606:56 - very unique um entity very unique the very state of the
07:0407:04 - universe right now the state of creation right now is because someone decided that one person
07:1207:12 - or there couldn’t be just one God that he too could be God that is why there can’t be one God because there can’t be
07:1907:19 - more than one God if there is more than one God what results from that is a clash of wills and when you have two
07:2807:28 - entities that are Omni poent omnipresent Omni everything they have all the qualities of God but they have
07:3807:38 - differing Wills differing desires differing if you will visions of what existence should be what’s going to
07:4807:48 - result from that is chaos catastrophe it would be an eternal state of chaos and catastrophe
07:5707:57 - that’s what would happen as it is we have just one creature who happens to be the most powerful creature that God
08:0508:05 - created and we are in the mess that we are in what if it was actually just another
08:1108:11 - entity that was actually God that’s that’s why it makes sense that no matter what we we might think or let’s put it
08:2008:20 - this way no matter what other people might think about the fact that there is a trinity and therefore this must mean
08:2608:26 - that there are three Gods we know that these three persons must be fundamentally United it makes sense for
08:3608:36 - the Bible to assert that they’re fundamentally United in essence so that they can’t actually be
08:4308:43 - opposed in any way to each other that’s the the uniqueness and the Oneness of their godhood there are three persons in
08:5208:52 - the sense that you can see their individuality the fact that the son is not the the father for example and the
08:5908:59 - the spirit is not the sun you can see these things demonstrated in the Bible but there is no um no difference
09:0909:09 - whatsoever in their if you will aspirations not they don’t have aspirations or desires or will or what
09:1509:15 - whatever they might be wanting to accomplish they perfectly United in these things that’s that’s where the
09:2209:22 - their Oneness in essence has to be understood now I will say that through throughout history many of the heresies
09:3109:31 - relating to this and even in other religions that have pantheons there is not equality among the people in the
09:3809:38 - pantheon so um to use a classic example just take Greek mythology in the Greek pantheon Zeus was seen as being the head
09:4709:47 - of the pantheon right and you might have other people like Poseidon or Hades and Hera and Aphrodite and Athena and so on
09:5509:55 - um the the gods and goddesses that were part of this but they did to have um what we would call equal Authority equal
10:0310:03 - nature um and specific to us I pulled up this chart here was from the earlier lesson in our study talking about the
10:1010:10 - essence of God where even if someone wanted to assert um that the members of the Trinity were actually separate
10:1910:19 - beings so they didn’t share an Essence they would have to be asserting because we’ve established already from points
10:2510:25 - we’ve already gone through in this series that the members of the Trinity exhibit these characteristics right um I
10:3210:32 - mean we could go look at the specific verses you know where we went for each one but if the members of the Trinity
10:3810:38 - exhibit these characteristics and this is what Dr luganville meant when he said three beings of similar Essence um right
10:4610:46 - so they share the same Essence that’s the correct teaching but the only other teaching that even has the patina of
10:5310:53 - possibility to it is if all three beings shared fundamentally similar Essence um so even if they were separate they would
11:0311:03 - still share many of these same attributes now ai’s kind of gotten to the heart of the problem with this is
11:0811:08 - that um even even among uh separate beings who have um you know separate Wills if you will there there will
11:1711:17 - always be tension there will always be disagreement and conflict um and the uniqueness of God is that we have
11:2511:25 - separate persons who share the same being the same will not that they aren’t separate persons but that there is a
11:3311:33 - Unity that completely exceeds and transcends human understanding in a way that isn’t possible if they weren’t
11:4011:40 - United in one Essence um so uh just trying to point out here that even when we talk about uh heresies in this regard
11:5011:50 - uh you can basically just categorically ignore anything that doesn’t at least start with the assumption that they’re
11:5611:56 - three beings of fundamentally similar essence you know in the manner we’ve talked about here um
12:0312:03 - because you know that you have to start there um and but some of what we’re going to be talking about this week is
12:1012:10 - basically just how the Bible in how it talks about these things simply asserts that the three members of the Trinity
12:1712:17 - are God um not that this one’s a God and that one’s a God and that one’s a God but they are all God um and for that
12:2412:24 - reason that’s why we are saying that they share the same Essence they are the same being
12:2912:29 - because they are all God while at the same time being distinct persons yeah I would even um sort of mention that in
12:3812:38 - the pantheon that you talked about like the Greek for example there was constant conflict so there’s right right right
12:4712:47 - right well I mean you know and and certainly I mean I I took a couple mythology classes it was related to my
12:5312:53 - major um in college because I was a Classics major and so this isn’t just a unique facet of Greek mythology in the
13:0013:00 - Norse pantheon as well for example where you have Odin and Loki and Thor and and Freya and so on like you said conflict
13:1013:10 - and but there was also disparity and Status there there there was not this sense of equality um and also and both
13:1613:16 - of these pantheons not to get too off topic here but um both of those pantheons they kind of the gods were
13:2313:23 - portrayed as very human in a way that God for us as Christians is not and this isn’t to say you know like how when we
13:3013:30 - talk about how um the the wine press of God’s Wrath we call that an anthropopathism um you know we’re
13:3813:38 - attributing this human emotion to God in a way that God really doesn’t have that in the same sense that we do whereas for
13:4513:45 - the Greeks and the Norse and and you know plenty of other pantheons throughout cultures and history the gods
13:5113:51 - were basically just really powerful humans so they magnified um they magnified human Humanity in all of its
13:5913:59 - good and bad parts and so for example in The Iliad which is a famous uh War epic written by the Greek poet Homer call it
14:0814:08 - Circa 800 BC um you know uh aliot is all about uh you know glory on the battlefield uh this is the siege of Troy
14:1614:16 - by the Greeks and um Zeus comes off looking kind of like a big meanie um you know he’s he’s kind of sitting back and
14:2314:23 - watching the Greeks and the Trojans destroy each other um and you know there isn’t this sense of fundamental justice
14:3114:31 - but basically Zeus gets angry um Zeus is capricious in the way that humans are they don’t transcend you know the the
14:3914:39 - flaws of humanity but okay so all that you know I guess I don’t want to get to off topic but our God is not like that
14:4714:47 - right our god is perfect and just and infinite so that he is Nothing Like Us right in our fallen sinful State um and
14:5914:59 - more to the point among the people in the godhead among the Father the Son and the spirit they share this this Unity of
15:0615:06 - perfect will of perfection in a way that we can’t even comprehend um so it’s not even like you know siblings or friends
15:1515:15 - who know each other really well who tend to you know agree more than they disagree it is perfect unity and that is
15:2115:21 - fundamentally different than relationships that we can understand as humans because we don’t have those in
15:2615:26 - our own lives there is no equivalent to this and this is another way in which God is completely
15:3515:35 - unique right so the first place that we are going to turn here um in establishing
15:4515:45 - this again we are talking about how God being three in person does not mean that we have three different gods well we’re
15:5115:51 - g to again be focusing on this sense that the father is God and the son is God and the spirit is God so they’re all
15:5815:58 - gods which means that they share the same Essence they’re all the same being and
16:0316:03 - so this is uh one of the the classic verses in the Old Testament that talks about um God being one um and so uh
16:1216:12 - something that Audi had actually brought up off the recording you know in between time here I just thought it Bears
16:1716:17 - mentioning here is how unique this is among world religions um so for uh the unity that we have um you know this mono
16:2816:28 - theism is what you know the sociologists and historians will call it um is such a a different Force than all of the
16:3616:36 - religions around them and so it always put Israel in conflict with the Canaanites or the Hittites for example
16:4316:43 - because you know the Israelites were at least they’re supposed to be monotheistic versus these other cultures
16:4816:48 - which were not it is a fundamental incompatibility right and in that um in this verse in Deuteronomy chapter 4 so
16:5816:58 - uh we are given to know that he is God and there is no other beside him um you know I think there’s other places in
17:0417:04 - Deuteronomy um in uh you know the pentti the earliest books of the Bible that make it real clear that um you know as
17:1117:11 - God had revealed himself to the Hebrew people there was one God and only one God and that made him very distinct from
17:1917:19 - you know all of the other people groups around them um in Canaan even in Egypt um so you know
17:2917:29 - with other things that we’ve talked about before the father is usually pretty easy here right when we say the
17:3417:34 - father is god father being the the representation of deity as AI has put it before well yeah you like we don’t have
17:4217:42 - to try too hard to show that one um so this is one example as in other places we could aduce verse after verse after
17:5117:51 - verse that would support this point as well um in fact we already have more or less and this none of this should seem
17:5617:56 - like completely new to us because we’ve already gone through and established that the father is God and that the son
18:0118:01 - is God and the spirit is God but the point that we’re kind of emphasizing now is that because they are all God they
18:0718:07 - are united in essence it means that they’re not three separate persons that’s what we’re getting at now
18:1418:14 - but anything more to say on the father specifically oh no I don’t think so yeah I mean like I say this one probably the
18:2418:24 - easiest of the members of the Trinity to get behind how the father is god um because the father is the one who acts
18:3118:31 - as the representation of deity the one um who is separate from the world now uh stands behind that Veil um the one who
18:4018:40 - kind of manifests the authority of the godhead so well we’ll leave this here and uh we will pick up talking about the
18:4818:48 - Son and the spirit also being God meaning that they are also uh joint partakers of the same Essence rather
18:5618:56 - than being separate beings so next we’re going to be talking about the father and the son and in fact this
19:0519:05 - verse right here this is John chapter 10 verse3 where Jesus says I and the father are one um you know to the point that
19:1419:14 - people sometimes say that Jesus never claims to be God you know I don’t I don’t know exactly what they make of
19:2019:20 - this verse then but um this is very literally the point that we are talking about right now where Jesus doesn’t say
19:2919:29 - I am a being of deity on equal status with the father you know so if that were the case you know if we were speaking of
19:4019:40 - three separate beings who had similar Essence right the the not uh God is made up of three persons who are joint
19:4819:48 - partakers of the same Essence but if we were actually talking about three separate Gods so to speak this verse
19:5319:53 - makes absolutely no sense because Jesus would have to instead claim that he was a being on par with the father you know
20:0220:02 - that he and the father had equal abilities uh equal character you know that they were similar but that they
20:0920:09 - were not the same but Jesus doesn’t claim that Jesus says that he and the father are one he is God and in fact
20:1720:17 - getting this point wrong it it you know like you can’t you can’t responsibly interpret when Jesus claims this when he
20:2320:23 - claims to be God um in the Gospel of John and people want to Stone him it it no sense unless his audience understood
20:3120:31 - what he was claiming right because the very fact that they got so enraged about this was because Jesus wasn’t claiming
20:3920:39 - to be you know like someone God sent or you know another being he was claiming to be God to be in Union with God and
20:4720:47 - that’s what affronted the Jews so much was that they understood exactly what he was claiming but he was claiming to be
20:5520:55 - one with God you know like that’s what got them so so angry um and that’s what this verse says so yeah yeah in fact
21:0421:04 - he he they he actually he actually appealed to Psalm 82 where it says um you are Gods so because of of you know
21:1621:16 - how the sorts of gymnastics that people have pulled on that passage I’m trying to say yeah he really meant this no he
21:2421:24 - really meant that he didn’t really mean this and that and so on but he actually said to explain what he said that if
21:3421:34 - those to whom the word of God came where Gods how much more the person that God himself Sanctified and sent into the
21:4321:43 - world that is to say he’s saying I and the father are one is actually more than just being told you are Gods he was
21:5221:52 - saying what the father is I am too yeah that’s that’s pretty tic so his deity is declared
22:0322:03 - without we we were looking at um let see this particular verse was uh you know verse 30 I and the father are
22:1222:12 - one so they wanted to Stone him she says I love this she just asked him for which good work are you stoning me you know um
22:2122:21 - and they say and this is what I mean about them understanding what it was he was claiming they say we’re not stoning
22:2622:26 - you for any good work but because because uh you’re blaspheming you a mere man claim to be God that that sentence
22:3422:34 - there doesn’t make sense unless they understood what he was claiming and they understood that he was claiming that he
22:3922:39 - himself was God right it’s not that he was a God that he was a creature sent by God but that he was God um and that yes
22:4822:48 - you know it’s exactly what we’re establishing here right I mean and then here’s what AI said Jesus reasoning with
22:5322:53 - them about the quote from Psalm 82 um so why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I Saidi not God’s son do not
23:0123:01 - believe me unless I do the works of my father but if I do them even though you do not believe me believe the works that
23:0623:06 - you may know and understand that the father is in me and I in the father right now I should say just by point of
23:1423:14 - reference that when we talk about being indwell by the Holy Spirit and we say the spirit’s within us that that’s
23:2023:20 - different than what this means you know in yeah to use the philosophical jargon in an ontological sense this is a
23:2723:27 - different claim than that claim right yeah yeah and so maybe a bit pedantic but the point is is
23:3423:34 - that Jesus very explicitly In this passage in John chapter 10 is claiming that he is not like a being on par with
23:4223:42 - God that God sent or whatever that he is God he and the father are one they have complete Unity which ontologically
23:5023:50 - Speaking means that they share the same Essence they are the same being it’s what it has to mean because if Jesus
23:5523:55 - refers to the father as a separate person yet says he is one with him that’s where
24:0124:01 - we get different persons but same Essence from um yeah yeah all right what is what is the word for where he’s
24:1024:10 - saying that uh you are Gods you’re all gods is that l so in the Hebrew it would be Elohim
24:1924:19 - plural probably in the Greek I’m assuming it’s the plural here if you’re talking because this quote in John 10 is
24:2524:25 - a quote um even if a not a word for word quote from the suant I’m guessing that this word
24:3124:31 - here now I me here I can look it up so what is this this is verse John 10:34 I bet it’s the plural of Theos
24:4124:41 - um that would have to do with um the nature right our ability to choose the image of God Genesis
24:5224:52 - 1:27 talks about that um we are Godlike in our choice at least that’s certainly how ikus takes it um well the English
25:0025:00 - uses it as a little G that’s what I say the little G Gods the little little G Gods indeed
25:0725:07 - um there there’s also it is the plural of Theos so yeah there’s also um the bit that yes we have the power to choose and
25:2125:21 - to respond to God’s Authority but we all the people specifically to whom this was said in p
25:2825:28 - 82 and um to whom Jesus was referring um in John 10 were God’s deputies you know the rulers in the world those you know
25:3925:39 - like when the Bible said in is to God sits in his Council you know and um he is saying to them uh basically be be
25:5125:51 - just be fair in in your conduct don’t oppress and so on and so forth he was speaking to
25:5825:58 - the the rulers in the nations of the world so when Jesus says um you are gods in that sense he’s speaking to people
26:0826:08 - it’s just like some of the conversations that we’ve had about uh um uh submitting to governments and all
26:1726:17 - of those in authority and stuff like that because essentially they have this divine right to command so to speak to
26:2826:28 - expect to be obeyed so that’s the sort of thing that Jesus is referring to if these ones to whom the word of God came
26:3626:36 - were gods and the scriptures cannot be broken he said how much more the one whom God sets apart for himself for him
26:4626:46 - as his very own and sent forth into the world that is to say if those ones are Gods you should know that I’m more than
26:5526:55 - they are I am actually the same as the father is they are gods in a derivative sense because they are
27:0327:03 - sharing in Divine Authority I’m not just sharing in Divine Authority I own it just as the father does mine is not
27:1327:13 - derivative is what he was saying and the works that he was doing Pro proved it that his word was
27:2227:22 - true yeah yeah right indeed um so couple other verses here that I
27:3027:30 - had added these this was the one I mean none of this that we’re talking about is completely distinct from anything we’ve
27:3727:37 - talked about before uh which is why you know we’re not maybe just not like paragraphs and paragraphs for each point
27:4327:43 - I had pulled in just a couple other verses um there’s this verse in Colossians chapter 2 that talks about
27:4927:49 - how in Christ uh basically is the full the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form within the person of Jesus Christ
27:5727:57 - right um whatever that means it it does not mean that Jesus is a separate God from
28:0328:03 - the father right um if you hold that point of view then what in the world does this verse mean it just doesn’t
28:1028:10 - make sense right um also Philippians chapter 2 ver 6 um this says Jesus existed in the form of God and did not
28:2028:20 - regard equality with God a thing to be grasp right if Jesus were a separate God rather than being himself God you know
28:2828:28 - being a joint partaker of the same Essence as the father why how could we say that he exists in the form of God
28:3528:35 - what would that even mean it just doesn’t make sense um so yeah just establishing the point here that once
28:4328:43 - again we’re back to that interpretive um what I would say the principle of if you start trying to Monkey around with the
28:4928:49 - definition of the Trinity suddenly a whole bunch of passages in the Bible no longer make sense you know you have to
28:5528:55 - go through great gymnastics to explain a way the fact that they seem to contradict
29:0029:00 - whatever interpretation you’re pushing is these are just several examples of what in the world does John 10:30 mean
29:0729:07 - if Jesus is you know a being distinct from the father you know how can he be one with the father if he’s a separate
29:1329:13 - being from the father it just doesn’t make sense uh these other two verses that I pulled in here as well again
29:1829:18 - these weren’t in the study directly I just thought they were good cross references neither of these really make
29:2329:23 - sense either if you say that Jesus is somehow a being with similar Essence to but not the same Essence as the father
29:2929:29 - that he’s not one with the father he’s just like the father then how is there one deity then
29:3529:35 - it just it doesn’t compute it doesn’t make sense and and we’ve argued before in this series that we’ve been going
29:4129:41 - through that that’s the problem anytime you change around anything with a three person’s one Essence bit of the Trinity
29:4829:48 - you you suddenly all these passes stop making sense and yeah that is like the clear message that you can’t do that
29:5529:55 - that that’s just not true and that’s why this idea that the Trinity somehow like is a derivative thing that we just like
30:0230:02 - made up after the fact or whatever just it it doesn’t fly because the Trinity is all over the place in the Bible
30:0830:08 - Understanding the correct nature of the trinity in terms of what the Bible teaches isn’t something that a church
30:1430:14 - Council like voted was true four centuries after the fact or whatever it’s been true since the very beginning
30:2030:20 - since the New Testament was first penned and in fact since beginning of creation because God has always been this way and
30:2730:27 - the B clearly speaks of him in this way so yeah yeah so uh now we’re going to be talking
30:3830:38 - about adding the Holy Spirit to the mix here so we had previously just argued that the Bible makes it real clear that
30:4530:45 - Jesus claims to be one with God he claims to be God in a way that is very distinct from somehow being like a
30:5230:52 - separate a separate God like on the same level as God the Father um but that Jesus claimed to be God um ontologically
31:0131:01 - speaking so to say um and so now we’re going to be talking about the same concept as it applies to the Holy Spirit
31:0731:07 - and so uh the passage of the Bible that Dr lugan bille quotes here in the study is John chapter 14 vers 16 and 17 uh
31:1631:16 - which says I will ask the father so this is Jesus speaking I will ask the father and he will give you another comforter
31:2131:21 - to be with you forever the spirit of Truth whom the world cannot receive for it neither sees him nor knows him him
31:2731:27 - but you know him for he abides with you and will be in you um so to the point that we are establishing that the spirit
31:3631:36 - is one with the father and the son um you know we’ve used this passage previously um in our lessons here to
31:4231:42 - establish that the spirit is a different person from the father and the son right because how can the son send himself or
31:5031:50 - how can you know or sorry how can the son request himself be sent and how can the father send himself you know so that
31:5731:57 - that’s what we mean by the spirit’s a separate person um there are some some other verses here that I brought up um
32:0332:03 - but First Peter chapter 1 verse 21 is talking about inspiration and uh the inspiration of prophets uh it says that
32:1232:12 - no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from
32:1732:17 - God equating the Holy Spirit and God right um also Acts chapter 5 um we we’ve talked about this passage before when we
32:2632:26 - were discussing that all three members of the Trinity were God which is really not a different point than what we’re
32:3232:32 - talking about in this lesson I mean sort of I suppose in how you phrase it but um all three members of the Trinity being
32:3832:38 - God implicitly means that all three you know members of the Trinity share the same Essence um but this is where um uh
32:4632:46 - when ananas and saf were holding back the proceeds from the land that they sold um it basically equates lying to
32:5432:54 - the holy spirit with lying to God um directly and so again direct evidence that the holy spirit is God he’s not
33:0233:02 - he’s not a being similar in essence to the father and the son but he is God in the same way that the father is God and
33:1033:10 - the son is God but they are not each other um and finally uh this other verse that we’ve also talked about repeatedly
33:1833:18 - in our lessons here um uh the Great Commission in Matthew chapter 28 talking about how we are baptized in the name of
33:2633:26 - the father so we’ve talked before about how there’s a single name it’s one name in the Greek but it applies to the
33:3233:32 - father and the Son and the Holy Spirit so it’s not the name of the father and then like a separate name for the son
33:3833:38 - and a separate name for the Holy Spirit but that same name applies to all three of them and it applies to all three of
33:4333:43 - them equally without disparity here right they share this name which only makes sense if they are of the same
33:5133:51 - Essence if they are the same being um so um it’s sort of like an amalgamation here of of points of verses that support
34:0134:01 - this concept but again this is not some great thing that we’re establishing you know like we are completely turning
34:0834:08 - interpretation on his head or anything this is literally no more than just like the son the holy spirit is God he you
34:1634:16 - know he shares the same Essence with the father and the son they are joint partakers of the same Essence that’s the
34:2234:22 - terminology that you’ll hear used and therefore they are all God they are all uh beings with the they
34:3034:30 - are one being with the same Essence um even though as this verse in John 14 makes clear they are different persons
34:3834:38 - um so do you have anything to add to any of this or like that’s not much I mean I think we we
34:4834:48 - could go through a laundry list of of passages in the scriptures that show this the Holy Spirit acting as God being
34:5634:56 - addressed as God and speaking as God it’s it’s it’s hardly I mean when these things actually begin to you know um
35:0835:08 - really come into their own is in the face of opposition that’s when we start to see that it makes no sense when you
35:1635:16 - read the Bible with some conception that the holy spirit is not God we’ve talked about um earlier how even if you were to
35:2735:27 - go and use extreme translations of the Bible that were made specifically to attack the Trinity among other things
35:3635:36 - that that Christians believe for example the new world translation from Jehovah’s Witnesses you will keep seeing that if
35:4735:47 - you were to try to eliminate biblical evidence for the deity of the Holy Spirit or of Jesus
35:5735:57 - Christ you end up in an intractable position where very little in the Bible makes sense and you find yourself
36:0436:04 - preaching things you don’t actually claim to believe so for example in the matter of the sun they would say we
36:1236:12 - don’t believe we’re talking about the Jehovah’s Witness we don’t believe in uh polytheism there is only one God but
36:2036:20 - then they go right ahead and make Jesus a God in John 1 verse1 because they can’t stand John 1 vers1 actually
36:2836:28 - reading that Jesus is God right so they have to make him a God now if you were to go to Hebrews where we have the Holy
36:3636:36 - Spirit speaking as God Hebrews chapter 3 I believe it was where he said um they may um how do they put it something like
36:4736:47 - um uh don’t be like your fathers in the day that they had they they annoyed me or something like that he was speaking
36:5636:56 - as if he was God now they don’t even believe that the holy spirit is a person now how would they translate everything
37:0537:05 - that actually presents the Bible everything in the Bible that actually presents the Holy Spirit not only
37:1237:12 - speaking as a person but speaking as God I don’t know how they would manage it when he is not even a person in their
37:1837:18 - view so we find that whenever you go to such extremes just as as um Steven has said you will find that a lot of things
37:2737:27 - in the Bible seize to make sense so it makes sense to take what the Bible says on its face that the father is God the
37:3837:38 - son is God the holy spirit is God the three of them are distinct individuals they are distinct persons in their own
37:4737:47 - right but they are not three different gods because the Bible declares without question that there is one God
37:5737:57 - so we have um a very solid uh proof in the as far as the scriptures go if we are taking the scriptures word for it
38:0738:07 - then the Holy Spirit definitely is God just like the father and the son both are as
38:1538:15 - well so just to that’s the wrong one this set of slides here so this section that we’ve been going through today
38:2238:22 - talking about how they’re all joint partakers of the same Essence um I just want to be C in case any people coming
38:2838:28 - behind in these lessons are wondering this this past lesson we did where we established that all three members of
38:3338:33 - the Trinity are deity is actually the basically it’s the same point that they’re joint partakers of the same
38:3938:39 - Essence because when we say they are all God what we mean by that is that they are all the same being you know they are
38:4638:46 - all deity in the sense that they are God right so all these verses that we went through before are really you know like
38:5338:53 - all of these that teach the Trinity the father is God the son is God the holy spirit is god well all of these claims
39:0039:00 - that you know the father is deity and the son is deity and the Holy Spirit is deity that they’re all God that they are
39:0539:05 - all addressed as God proper all of those really apply here as well um yeah um it’s not it’s not like um what I would
39:1639:16 - to say like the the mechanism is different here or whatever um so the reason why we’re wording this this way
39:2339:23 - is the lesson right before this one we were talking about how they’re co-equal co-eternal
39:2739:27 - consubstantial they share that Essence right um and we’re just basically this section has been worded in such a way
39:3539:35 - that we are opposing the notion of pantheons we are opposing the very idea that um the members of the Trinity are
39:4539:45 - separate Gods um but it’s not really a fundamental different teaching than that all members of the Trinity are God it’s
39:5239:52 - the same thing it’s just opposing sort of a a different heresy um because the heresy that this this first set was kind
40:0040:00 - of getting at was for example saying that the son wasn’t even God to begin with it’s kind of a different way it’s
40:0540:05 - kind of a different heresy than saying that the son is a God but just a different God than the father see what
40:1040:10 - I’m saying um yeah and and so that’s kind of why the study was set up how it was I mean actually I can’t pretend to
40:1640:16 - speak for Dr luging bill that’s my guess because most of these sections have been of kind of organized in terms of
40:2140:21 - combating past heresy on these matters um but basically saying that all three members
40:2840:28 - of the Trinity are are deity is what the other section was getting at and that was dealing with for example Jesus
40:3640:36 - Christ was actually God not just a human being and he you know like the holy spirit is God as in you know like rather
40:4440:44 - than not being god um versus what we’re talking about now are is that the father and the son and the spirit are all of
40:5140:51 - the same Essence which is also saying that they’re all God but it’s saying as a opposed to the son somehow being a
40:5840:58 - separate God from the father it’s just a little bit of a different thing is all but all of the evidence to get us to the
41:0541:05 - right interpretation that the father and the son and the spirit all share one Essence and they are all God it’s the
41:1041:10 - same it’s the same general thing that’s what I’m trying to say yeah yeah all right anything else on the spirit or is
41:1841:18 - that where we’ll kind of cut it here for this point yeah I’m
41:2541:25 - done all right so this lesson we have been examining how God is three in person but
41:3341:33 - that does not mean that the Trinity is composed of three or more different gods and kind of as I just closed on and the
41:4041:40 - very last thing we talked about was pointing out how this is a little bit of a distinct thing from talking about the
41:4641:46 - Divinity of Jesus Christ in the spirit for example in that we have been arguing that um we are not merely talking about
41:5441:54 - um you know like the capability and status of the Son and the spirit but that they share the same Essence and
42:0042:00 - that’s sort of arguing against a different heresy than that Jesus wasn’t even Divine to begin with like the arens
42:0642:06 - might say um so in this lesson we’ve gone through been establishing how uh the father is uh you know said to be God
42:1442:14 - as particularly uh you know even before we had more explicit Revelation in the New Testament um the Jewish people being
42:2242:22 - monotheistic made this such a shocking claim in the culture around them and then we talked about how Jesus very
42:2942:29 - obviously claims not to be a God but he claims to be God and this is part of the reason why um the crowds in John chapter
42:3642:36 - 10 you know sought to Stone him because they knew exactly what he was saying they knew what he meant and he was
42:4142:41 - claiming that he was God that he and the father are one so what John 10:30 says and then finally we talked about how um
42:4942:49 - the holy spirit is obviously God as well um verses that we’ve gone over before that establish the fact that he is god
42:5542:55 - um and how all of this ties back together to give us this notion that rather than being three separate beings
43:0243:02 - three separate Gods the Father the Son and the spirit are all the same being they are joint Partiers of the same
43:1043:10 - Essence right that’s kind of what I titled this section joint partakers of the same Essence which is just kind of
43:1543:15 - theological jargon for saying that they are one person United in essence even though they are three separate persons
43:2343:23 - um and so that is kind of where we are going to be wrapping up um the last uh of these lessons where we’ve been going
43:3143:31 - through uh kind of some things that the Trinity is not to kind of help throw into sharper relief uh what the Trinity
43:3843:38 - actually teaches so that we can make better sense of that three person’s one Essence um so we’ve been on that for uh
43:4443:44 - maybe three or four lessons now you know we’ve been going through some of these points about um the nature of the
43:4943:49 - Trinity and next we’ll be moving on to kind of examining the Trinity a bit more in scripture and how God operates and
43:5643:56 - things like that so this is kind of a a uh soft uh not stop but a transition point for us in our study um as this
44:0544:05 - lesson kind of closes this section where we’ve been talking about um basically these these points uh about what the
44:1244:12 - Trinity is not so with that um I hope um everyone picks up next time when we start diving a bit more into how the
44:2044:20 - Trinity shows up in the Bible specifically
Introduction - The Trinity in the Bible
Video
Summary
In this lesson, we go over how the Trinity can be a tricky concept to understand and explain, which makes it very important to keep our focus on the Bible when discussing it. Otherwise, we might otherwise end up off in the weeds, which is certainly not where we want to be in our understanding of this core doctrine of Christianity.
Timestamps
0:000:00 - Intro and outline
01:1601:16 - Review
03:1203:12 - The Trinity can be hard to explain properly
12:1612:16 - So keeping the focus on the Bible is necessary
25:3525:35 - Is Jesus “the Father’s seed”? Is the Holy Spirit “the Father’s spirit”?
36:2436:24 - Summary and outro
Content
(Derived from https://ichthys.com/1Theo.htm)
Review
The definition of the Trinity which best does justice to the biblical statements on the subject is the one we have previously stated, namely, that God is one in essence and three in person. We get an even clearer picture of what the Bible has to say about the Trinity when we combine this traditional definition with the four corollaries we’ve just gone through:
- All three members of the Trinity are divine persons.
- All three members of the Trinity are unique persons.
- All three members of the Trinity have coequal and coeternal essence.
- All three members of the Trinity share the same divine essence.
The Trinity can be hard to explain properly
As can be seen from the numerous heresies (touched on some in our previous lessons) that have sprung up to challenge orthodox statements about the Trinity, the doctrine can be a difficult one to state in a proper, biblical way. This is especially true the further any definition of the Trinity moves away from actual statements contained in the Bible (which, as we have already stated, were felt to be sufficient by the Apostles and Apostolic Fathers).
It should be noted here that even the terms “essence” and “person” were felt by some theologians of the early church to be controversial. We may talk of Man’s essence (we are all cut from the same spiritual cloth), and Man’s personality (we are all unique individuals), but the essence of God is different from the essence of Man (for one thing, all members of the Trinity share the same divine essence), and the idea of personality in the Trinity is different from that of human persons (to take but one example, the absolute unity of agreement and purpose of the Trinity throughout all eternity is not only quantitatively but also qualitatively beyond human experience).
So keeping the focus on the Bible is necessary
The lesson here is that rationalistic speculation—always dangerous when expounding the Bible—is even more to be avoided in the case of the Trinity, a doctrine that was only fully revealed with the arrival of the New Testament. What God has chosen to reveal about this doctrine, He has revealed carefully and gradually. We will cover the subject of the Trinity in the Old Testament more fully in future lessons, but it may be said here that a large part of the reason for this guarded revelation of the doctrine (beyond our human limitations in comprehending it) may be the all too obvious fact (see our prior discussions) that wrong ideas about the nature of the Trinity have historically posed such a dire threat to the entire basis of our Christian faith.
Just a little leaven in the loaf, and Satan can make the Trinity seem as an association of “gods” (and so no different from paganism) or one “god” with three hats (thus completely eliminating the importance and efficacy of Christ’s incarnation and sacrifice).
In His loving wisdom, God has told us what we most need to know without giving us either information that could be misinterpreted, or less than accurate illustrations that might do more harm than good.
Is Jesus “the Father’s seed”? Is the Holy Spirit “the Father’s spirit”?
This is a video-only section.
With respect to His humanity, Jesus is the Son of the Father. With respect to His deity, He is of equal standing with the Father. The titles Father and Son are tied to the roles that the members of the Trinity adopt in their redemptive plan within Creation.
The Spirit is sent by the Father and the Son rather than somehow ontologically originating from them. He is “theirs” in the sense of being related to them/sent by them, as opposed to be related to someone else. Think of it in terms of grammatical apposition—“the Spirit, the one related to Jesus and/or the Father” (as opposed to some other spirit).
Video/audio transcript
00:0000:00 - all right so right now we are going to be picking up with our next lesson in the series talking about the trinity in
00:0600:06 - the Bible as a concept now we have already been talking about the Trinity for a while now uh you know the members
00:1400:14 - of the Trinity the definition of the Trinity basically uh three persons one Essence and some of what that means but
00:2000:20 - in this lesson we are going to be going over a little bit more specifically about uh how the Bible discusses or
00:2800:28 - rather does not discuss the concepts so explicitly and what that means when we go about talking about it for us as
00:3400:34 - Christians and so we’re going to first off just be reviewing what we’ve already gone over so this is the more
00:4000:40 - definitional side of the Trinity I’m going over three persons one Essence and some of the kind of uh features of a
00:4700:47 - correct understanding of the Trinity that we’ve been going over in the last few lessons then we’re going to be
00:5200:52 - talking about kind of why the Trinity can be hard to explain properly and then why that truth means that we really need
00:5900:59 - to keep our f focus on the Bible when we are talking about it so rather than man-made analogies or rational
01:0701:07 - explanations from uh philosophy and things like that we need to keep our focus on what scripture says so that’s
01:1401:14 - what we’re going to be discussing in this lesson so the first thing that we’re
01:2101:21 - going to do here is just review what we’ve been talking about in the last few lessons probably won’t overly belabor
01:2701:27 - things here because we’ve already been through all of this but we’re just going to go ahead and hit the highlights just
01:3201:32 - to remind ourselves of exactly what the Trinity is so that when we’re talking about uh you know how the Bible views it
01:4001:40 - we kind of know what’s in view so the definition of the Trinity which best does Justice to the biblical statements
01:4601:46 - on the subject it’s the one that we’ve already kind of been repeating over and over uh is that one in essence and three
01:5201:52 - in person or three in person and one in essence that is the core definition of the Trinity we get an even clearer
01:5801:58 - picture of what the Bible has to say about uh this topic when we combine that traditional definition that we just said
02:0502:05 - kind of with the four cories that we have gone over in the last few lessons and so just to recap those uh we said
02:1102:11 - that all members in the Trinity are Divine persons all members of the Trinity are unique persons all members
02:1802:18 - of the Trinity have uh co-equal and co-eternal Essence a consubstantial and then this third point is that all
02:2602:26 - members of the Trinity share the same Divine Essence so these should sound familiar these are the points that we’ve
02:3202:32 - gone over in the last few lessons kind of defining the trinity in terms of some things that’s not right and we have
02:3902:39 - discussed some heresies involved in some of these things in the past so for example one heresy denies that Jesus was
02:4802:48 - God aryanism uh you know that would be this first topic here going over the Divine persons and you know various
02:5502:55 - other heresies besides dotism some other ones as well um so this this is what we have done already been defining the
03:0203:02 - Trinity um three persons one Essence and then discussing some cories to that definition that help us kind of flesh
03:1003:10 - out the topic uh in a little bit more depth so as to the First new point that we’re going to be going over this week
03:2003:20 - having just done this review of what we have been talking about we’re going to be talking about how the Trinity can be
03:2603:26 - kind of hard to explain properly um and one in point that that should kind of make this uh have an intuitive basis for
03:3503:35 - us when we consider past history is that there have been a lot of heresies in the past that have sprung up to challenge
03:4203:42 - Orthodox statements about the Trinity um and there are other areas that are somewhat comparable in scripture but
03:4903:49 - this proposition that we’re kind of putting forward here that the Trinity can be kind of hard to explain properly
03:5503:55 - well it makes intuitive sense when you compare this history that people have in the past understood it in various
04:0204:02 - problematic ways which kind of wouldn’t be the case if it were uh perhaps more clearly delineated and we have already
04:0904:09 - argued the point that the Bible just presupposes the Trinity it’s there in scripture um you know the fact that that
04:1604:16 - word isn’t used doesn’t mean that the Bible doesn’t teach it things like that but the point that we’re making is that
04:2304:23 - people wouldn’t have problems with it uh you know if it was like stated in one sentence you know just like that um now
04:3104:31 - we have to be careful because this this line of what I would call inferential thinking about I don’t know how direct
04:3704:37 - or objective the Bible might be about something it gets complicated when you consider that Satan probably sinks more
04:4304:43 - of his resources towards challenging things that are really important and specifically the Divinity of the son the
04:5004:50 - Divinity of Jesus Christ is a very very important Doctrine for us as Christians you know Salvation hinges upon
04:5704:57 - understanding who Jesus was and what he did for us for us and so it’s no surprise that Satan has also sunk
05:0305:03 - resources in his world system in empowering heresy empowering errors and Doctrine towards attacking this point as
05:1105:11 - well so it’s not only uh and we should just be clear about that it’s not only that the Trinity can be kind of hard to
05:1805:18 - talk about and explain it’s also that Satan has been trying to uh get people to stumble in this area because it’s so
05:2505:25 - important um but the main point uh just to pull us back back towards the text of the slide a bit here is that um this
05:3405:34 - challenge that we have sometimes in explaining exactly what it is you know stating in a proper biblical way um this
05:4105:41 - is true especially the further any definition of the Trinity moves away for what the Bible actually says um and
05:4905:49 - that’s because this topic is inherently hard for us to think about as humans the second that you step off of that path of
05:5605:56 - what the Bible actually says is really easy to start more is just making things up because when we try to make sense of
06:0206:02 - it in our heads we we try to fill in blanks and and what we put in those blanks if it’s not based directly on the
06:1006:10 - Bible is just inherently suspect because of this um and um you know this is just reiterating what we’ve already said here
06:1806:18 - that um uh the statements of the Bible were taken to be sufficient by the apostles and Apostolic fathers that’s
06:2406:24 - why we don’t get a lot of discussion about the Trinity and you know combating heresies involving it until those
06:3106:31 - heresies actually pop up in more like second third Century sort of thing um now it should be noted that the
06:3806:38 - definition that we use here for the trinity in terms of persons in essence well you know what’s a what’s Essence
06:4506:45 - and what’s a person you know um these terms were felt by some theologians of the early church to be controversial now
06:5306:53 - just because some people say that doesn’t mean that they really are I at least not in my opinion but nonetheless
06:5906:59 - people people do present challenges based on what we would call defining terms here and just to give an example
07:0607:06 - here of why the Trinity is hard for us to discuss as human beings is that well if we talk about Essence in terms of
07:1307:13 - human beings man’s Essence um we are all cut from the same spiritual cloth that is um you know my spiritual makeup is
07:2107:21 - the same as AI is the same as other human beings in the church uh we all have this similar spiritual composition
07:2907:29 - our Essence is of of a Kind right we are like one another in this way spiritually and we all have um personalities as well
07:4007:40 - we are all Unique Individuals I am not the same as someone else but when we kind of start turning this same this uh
07:4907:49 - uh looking at this uh in terms of God rather than man well the essence of God is just fundamentally different from the
07:5707:57 - essence of man so just how we have um similar Essences right but um the important points were not the same well
08:0508:05 - all of the members of the Trinity actually share the same Essence there is no human correlat for that that’s just
08:1108:11 - not how human beings are composed right so I have um you know a unique nature given to me by God um you know the
08:1908:19 - spirit and the flesh compose me as a human being same deal with all other human beings but we are we don’t share
08:2508:25 - that unity in essence that God does and with regards to persons or personality in the Trinity that’s different than
08:3308:33 - human persons as well because the persons of the Trinity have absolute Unity of agreement and purpose to a
08:4108:41 - degree that just completely boggles that of humans um so even people who agree for example religiously or politically
08:4908:49 - or even married couples who tend to agree with each other uh even those sorts of relationships don’t have
08:5608:56 - anywhere near the same Unity as is present in the Trinity um and so it’s not only quantitatively it is also
09:0409:04 - qualitatively Beyond The Human Experience uh God is fundamentally different from us so maybe that was a
09:1109:11 - little bit rambly but the point of all of this is that the Trinity um you know even despite saying that um you know the
09:1809:18 - statements in the Bible are sufficient unto themselves we don’t have to go try to build a huge framework around it we
09:2309:23 - can be open and honest in saying that the Trinity can be difficult to talk about sometimes that is just facet of um
09:3009:30 - this particular Doctrine for us and that doesn’t trouble us theologically so much because we know that sometimes God lays
09:3709:37 - things out in such a way that we need to be persistent in seeking the truth uh to come to full understanding um and
09:4609:46 - it’s uh sort of set up in the manner that um it rewards those who seek him um and we have a necessary part in that we
09:5409:54 - need to do our homework to actually do that seeking and that’s why uh we can kind of simultaneously say that the
10:0110:01 - statements in the Bible are perfectly clear especially once you take the time to kind of line them up and and look
10:0610:06 - into them and see how it fits together yet at the same time uh it can be easy to get off the right path if you’re not
10:1310:13 - careful in how you talk about it so um that is kind of this this introduction here uh towards what we’re
10:2110:21 - going to be talking about this week aie do you have any follow on points to anything I’ve said here
10:2710:27 - um just like said it’s just essentially to reiterate that the point of discussing it is
10:3510:35 - to um sort of uh cut offut cut the ground from
10:4510:45 - under the feet of any of the crazy ideas that people have had about Trinity that’s really the bottom line it’s not
10:5510:55 - so much to try to give a proper exhaustive explanation that’s impossible to derive from the scriptures but
11:0511:05 - certainly to make sure that those who are choosing to walk with the Lord know that no it’s not this and it’s not
11:1511:15 - that it’s something that we will fully appreciate when we stand before the Lord but um for now this is what we do know
11:2511:25 - and what we can live by so that’s that’s just what I would reiterate yep and you know that point of
11:3511:35 - what I would call knowledge for this point in time um we know that on the other side we will know more fully you
11:4211:42 - know not as through a glass Darkly but we will know as we are known um that’s how scripture phrases it and so some of
11:5111:51 - this we will have a much better appreciation of once we’re no longer so Bound by time and space um not that we
11:5811:58 - will ever cease to be completely Bound by those even in eternity but we will have a better
12:0312:03 - appreciation for how this works once we aren’t so finite ourselves um once we aren’t so limited as we are in these
12:1112:11 - bodies down here in Satan’s World um so yeah given everything that we just talked about about how the Trinity can
12:2312:23 - be hard to explain properly uh not so much that we can’t explain it or that scripture has to say or that those
12:3012:30 - things aren’t basically self-evident in themselves so we don’t need Church councils to talk about this all of that
12:3612:36 - aside the main point is that it’s one of those things that’s kind of easy for us as Christians to get wrong um and part
12:4212:42 - of that um as we’ve gone over some is just because of how different God is from us and so the lesson that we take
12:5012:50 - from this should be something along the lines that if we try to speculate about these things what we might call
12:5712:57 - rationalistic um philosophically we try to wrap our heads around it in terms of human logic that
13:0413:04 - is sort of always a dangerous Paradigm because God is super logical we might say or theological um it doesn’t mean
13:1113:11 - he’s he’s illogical but just that he exceeds some of the assumptions of presuppositions we might have or that
13:1813:18 - might apply to us as humans well it’s even more to be avoided in the case of the Trinity um and we also have to
13:2613:26 - remember and this makes the Trinity distinct from of some points of biblical Doctrine is that it was really only
13:3213:32 - fully revealed with the arrival of the New Testament um so what God has chosen to reveal about the doctrine of the
13:3913:39 - Trinity he has revealed carefully and gradually so not to get too off topic but this thing that we’re talking about
13:4613:46 - here is typically called in theology progressive revelation um this idea that God didn’t give Humanity all truth up
13:5413:54 - front you know he didn’t just drop the book from the sky at the beginning of human history but details have emerged
14:0014:00 - over the course of human history um as God has seen fit to uh to basically give additional prophecy additional Insight
14:0814:08 - additional um inspired scripture to mankind because the Bible was compiled over a period of many centuries um so
14:1614:16 - this idea of progressive revelation he has revealed details about the Trinity carefully and gradually over time so
14:2314:23 - we’re going to talk more about the trinity in the Old Testament uh kind of separate set of lessons in the future
14:2914:29 - here um you know this this idea of uh theophanes and christophanies and things like that um but we may nonetheless say
14:3714:37 - here that a large part of the reason for this guarded revelation of the doctrine um just aside from our own limitations
14:4314:43 - as human beings and comprehending it because God’s infinite uh well one of the other guarded or sorry one of the
14:5014:50 - other reasons for this guarded Revelation may be the all to obvious fact that wrong ideas about it have
14:5714:57 - historically posed such a threat to the entire basis of our faith as Christians so basically that um sometimes the
15:0615:06 - details here aren’t you know what we might say uh uh like they’re not all over the place because people might take
15:1615:16 - uh some of those things you know a verse here a verse there and then run with them in a way that would cause lots of
15:2215:22 - theological problems um and that is as we just kind of finished going over that is somewhat due just to the nature of of
15:2915:29 - this doctrine that we’re talking about that’s just kind of the way it is um because God Is So separate from us his
15:3415:34 - existence is is fundamentally different God is existence whereas we exist is limited beings tied to space time and
15:4115:41 - things like this it’s just really easy for people to get off in the Weeds on this one and so some of why the Bible uh
15:4815:48 - speaks in the way it does may be to give people less ammunition to go get off in the Wheats um and some of that is an
15:5715:57 - inference you know we don’t like there is no verse in the Bible that says that directly but it makes good logical sense
16:0316:03 - and um just to elaborate a little bit on the dangers here just a little bit of Leaven in the loaf right using that that
16:1016:10 - biblical metaphor here just a little leaven in the loaf and Satan can make the Trinity seem as an association of
16:1616:16 - gods and so basically no different from paganism or Pantheon or no different from one God just wearing Three Hats so
16:2516:25 - modalism and that completely eliminates the importance and the efficacy of Christ’s Incarnation sacrifice so Jesus
16:3216:32 - Christ taking on a full human nature alongside his divine nature in theology that that fully God yet fully man and
16:4016:40 - one being typically called the hypostatic union it’s the jargony way to say it but the Incarnation is very
16:4616:46 - different um it doesn’t work with what we would call this one being wearing Three Hats it’s just different they’re
16:5316:53 - different persons um different H Hy I can’t say that word whatever you know that’s what hypostasis means um
17:0017:00 - different persons and so you know all of this is just going to say that just being a little bit off here just you
17:0817:08 - know that one detail that you you flip bits on that you get wrong and suddenly you’re you’re right you know you laid
17:1517:15 - the axe at the base of the tree of salvation for us as Christians because you get stuff here wrong and it kind of
17:2317:23 - ruins the entire loaf um and so in his loving wisdom God has told us what we most need to know without giving
17:3117:31 - us either information that could be misinterpreted or that would be prone to overt misinterpretation or less than
17:3817:38 - accurate illustrations that might do more harm than good so if you read some of what the Bible does say on the
17:4517:45 - Trinity you know all of the discussion that we’ve already had in our past lesson uh where we talk about some of
17:5117:51 - what scripture does have to say you know all these passages that seem to just assume three members of the Trinity and
17:5617:56 - that they’re all co-equal and Co Eternal and things like this they all have the same Authority and therefore God exists
18:0318:03 - as a triing god QED and some of that um some of the arguments we’ve made the evidence we’ve given forth for um the
18:1018:10 - the Trinity as it comes from scripture well if you’ve ever wondered why doesn’t God just I don’t know Tred to explain it
18:1618:16 - to us by analogy well we’re g to get to that a little bit more fully in our next lesson but it’s because nothing he gives
18:2418:24 - us is inaccurate he he’s not he’s not trying to imperfectly explain himself to us he’s just asserting that it is um and
18:3318:33 - this is why we say in his wisdom God has told us what we most need to know without giving us information that could
18:3918:39 - be misinterpreted or without giving us imperfect illustrations or analogies or things like that because he doesn’t need
18:4518:45 - to because if we seek with the hearts that we ought to as Christians we will eventually come to learn and understand
18:5218:52 - and comprehend uh what the Bible teaches about this and God doesn’t have to do these things for us to get there
18:5918:59 - so all of this to say this is why we need to keep our focus on what the Bible actually does say about the Trinity we
19:0519:05 - don’t need to fill in the gaps here we don’t need to try to come up with these imperfect explanations to explain a
19:1119:11 - doctrine that will always have that tinge of what I would call impossible to understand for us as humans not that we
19:1819:18 - can’t understand the points you know as we’ve been hammering home over and over again three persons one Essence we don’t
19:2419:24 - need to be uncertain about that but the point is what is exactly does it mean for a being to exist external to space
19:3119:31 - and time well as human beings we don’t have good perspective on that you know we can kind of maybe grasp it
19:3619:36 - intellectually but we don’t really have a full sense experientially of what that is that sort of thing is what I’m
19:4219:42 - getting at here but we don’t need to fill in any of the gaps for this we don’t need to try to explain it
19:4819:48 - imperfectly or uh I don’t know like basically uh just basically say more than what is there and that’s why we
19:5619:56 - have to stick so closely to exactly what what the Bible says because you go any further than that and you open yourself
20:0220:02 - up to getting things wrong to misinterpreting to pulling things out of context and because heresy in this
20:0820:08 - particular area is so damaging to a proper understanding of just the core mechanics of who God is and and how he
20:1620:16 - saves us we just need to be really careful not to do that um that is the gist of what this slide is talking
20:2520:25 - about aie you have anything you want to add um just first a slight correction um I I
20:3320:33 - believe the hypostatic union is actually describing um the uh Union of
20:4220:42 - two Natures in one person that is uh Jesus was both truly God and truly man that’s what the hypostatic Union as far
20:5120:51 - as I can remember actually speaks to I me I don’t know exactly what I said but I agree with that so
20:5920:59 - yeah yeah I just I just wanted to point that out um but everything else you say is exactly on point sticking to what the
21:0921:09 - scriptures say about um and and this is actually why uh for example just to give us a clue as to as to why it is
21:2021:20 - important to just stick to what the Bible says and try not to get off in the Weeds about this the Roman Catholic
21:2821:28 - Church made the business of the Trinity like pretty much their everything in the early stages it was they were they they
21:3721:37 - essentially seemed to be the Defenders of the Trinity and everybody else everybody who in any way disagreed with
21:4521:45 - this doctrine of the Trinity was anema an excommunicado and whatnot so there was all sorts of there were all sorts of
21:5421:54 - things going on with respect to that but these this group of people we talked about have serious trouble with the
22:0222:02 - business of Salvation accepting that the the cross of Jesus Christ is how we are saved they are also the ones who are
22:1122:11 - associating Mary with godhead with the godhead in some weird way too so all that tells us there is a degree to which
22:2122:21 - you will peer at this thing and it will really damage you it is best to stick with what the script have to say
22:2922:29 - whenever we talk about the analogies involved and whatnot they’re supposed to be teaching AIDS like you can you you
22:3722:37 - can understand this aspect of it in this way that aspect of of it in that way but it’s not quite like anything in our
22:4622:46 - experience what God is is very different than anything that we have in our experience so but but
22:5422:54 - understanding what the scriptures themselves actually say which is this it’s pretty
23:0123:01 - straightforward in scriptures the father is God the son is God the holy spirit is God the father is not the son the holy
23:1223:12 - spirit is not the Son and the Holy Spirit is not the father that’s it that’s really all there
23:1923:19 - is to it for us how this is possible how these three persons are all God and we’re not talking about three Gods is
23:3123:31 - the stuff we cannot quite W wrap our minds around it’s not what we would expect to find in creation but creation
23:4023:40 - is different from God so sticking with what the scriptures say and not going beyond what is written which is where we
23:4923:49 - find um a lot of the denominations that fight over this stuff a lot of the uh Cults that fight over this stuff the
23:5823:58 - modern day Aran that’s the Jehovah’s Witnesses and all the there is the Jesus only that Jesus is the father and he’s
24:0624:06 - the Holy Spirit there are crazy all sorts of crazy um interpretations and whatnot for us just stick with what the
24:1524:15 - scriptures say about this and what they don’t say we don’t need to stress to to stress ourselves about one day we will
24:2324:23 - be with the Lord and we will understand these things fully now I will say uh bringing up some of the the going Beyond
24:3124:31 - bits especially with regards to some of these other groups like the Catholics and the Orthodox folks so something that
24:3624:36 - they get very exercised about is what we might call the origination of the son in the spirit and so you all hear all this
24:4524:45 - discussion about the Eternal beginning of the sun and the Eternal procession of the spirit and if you don’t know what
24:5224:52 - those things mean well that’s great because the Bible doesn’t talk about this I mean they they fancy that the
24:5724:57 - Bible does and they they misinterpret some things to get there but that is what happens when you go beyond that is
25:0425:04 - what we mean by going Beyond is you know the Bible asserts in in more more or less you know we’ve gone over some of
25:1125:11 - the places here that the three members of the Trinity are all God they’re all Eternal right why do we why do we bother
25:1825:18 - figuring out does the son come from the father like what what does that even mean right they’re all God they are
25:2525:25 - injecting stuff here that doesn’t need to be um that’s what we mean by not going
25:3125:31 - beyond what is written because as soon as you do you open yourself up to all these problems so we’re gonna actually
25:3825:38 - pick back up here um in this section with a question and so someone asked uh is it appropriate for us to think about
25:4725:47 - how the three members of the Trinity are one by thinking of uh Jesus is the Father’s seed and the Holy Spirit is the
25:5525:55 - Father’s Spirit um and so Audi I’ll give you uh the opportunity to go first and and I’ll I’ll go from
26:0526:05 - there okay sure um so there is an angle from from which the second appelate applies the first
26:1726:17 - one never applies in terms of deity that mean that’s the father’s seed that never applies in
26:2526:25 - deity because the second person of the Trinity is called the son only with respect to his
26:3326:33 - humanity and when I say that um it’s it’s a bit of it’s it’s something that we might struggle a little bit with
26:4426:44 - because the Bible does not really would I say make this delineation so to speak but the son is not the son because he
26:5526:55 - was in any way orig originated by the father that’s not the idea of his sunship it’s the role he plays within
27:0527:05 - the plan of God for uh creation and the Redemption of human beings and whatnot that’s the role he is associated with
27:1627:16 - that’s why he’s called the son so if we think of the unity of the godhead and try to explain it in terms of um the son
27:2627:26 - being the father’s seat that would be not just inappropriate but quite dangerous that’s where the whole
27:3527:35 - um uh eternally begotten nonsense really comes into play but the father’s spirit that applies if we understand that each
27:4727:47 - member of the Trinity claims the other so the holy spirit is the Father’s Spirit just like you how would I put it
27:5627:56 - in a family we would be claiming each other as belonging to each other that’s how we would I mean I don’t want to cut
28:0328:03 - you off but I I feel like it’s not that I disagree with that but I think when people ask that they may be thinking of
28:1028:10 - it more from an ontological sense you know like how human beings have flesh and spirit right and we would say the
28:1628:16 - human Spirit the holy spirit is not like God and we’ve talked about this before in our past lessons it’s not like God
28:2228:22 - exists as like a shell and then the holy spirit is what gives Spirit to God if that is the sense that that’s not quite
28:3028:30 - right either but because because equally we could say that the holy spirit is the spirit of
28:3628:36 - Christ right he’s the spirit Spirit of God and because the father is God and the Christ is God you know like you can
28:4328:43 - do that equivalency but it’s not like the father or Jesus exist as husks that the spirit gives life to you know it’s
28:5128:51 - it’s that it is the spirit of God the third member of the Trinity is properly the spirit of the I mean like it you
28:5928:59 - know I I suppose it really depends what what is being asked there that’s that’s why I said that there’s an angle from
29:0629:06 - which we come where that makes sense to the to the extent that what we’re saying just like you you pointed out we could
29:1329:13 - say that the spirit is the spirit of Christ as well we still saying that he belongs to
29:2029:20 - Christ just like he so the thing is is that I just feel like there’s clearer ways to say it is all yeah that but but
29:2829:28 - then the thing is it’s not technically wrong because the Bible does point that out the Bible does bear out that this is
29:3629:36 - the spirit of the father this is the spirit of Jesus so the the when when it says that it’s speaking in terms of
29:4329:43 - possession in the fact that this is my person this is my family member this is my you name it that that’s the point
29:5429:54 - it’s not saying as I would speak of my own Spirit as something that is really intrinsically me that’s not what’s
30:0330:03 - happening there so it’s it’s not it’s not necessarily inappropriate but it can be misleading I think perhaps thinking
30:1130:11 - about the sending of the spirit helps here when we say the spirit of the Father the of you know we would think of
30:1830:18 - as possession here it’s in the same way that you might have a messenger of a king right not that the spirit is a
30:2530:25 - messenger he’s also God but it it’s not God’s spirit as in the spirit part of the nature of God or something like that
30:3530:35 - it’s like influence right right it is you know the spirit the one sent from God right like if you put that in
30:4330:43 - apposition um yeah right in same way the spirit of Christ is not so much the thing giving animating Force to the
30:5130:51 - person of Christ as it is you know the spirit of not of sent by but you know like Christ spirit that one as opposed
31:0031:00 - to a different one right um yes so yeah so that that’s that’s the point um so to speak to the question then I would say
31:1131:11 - the unity of God is not to be understood in quite that way that is the Oneness of the Trinity that’s not that’s not how we
31:2131:21 - understand it it’s in the fact that I know the word essence is technical but it really means what it normally means
31:2931:29 - that all of them are sharing one thing an isness the thing that we call Humanity
31:3931:39 - for example is an Essence but we each have our copy of that Essence but the essence of deity is not
31:4731:47 - in copies there is only one such thing only one such thing does not exist in multiple copies there’s just one of it
31:5531:55 - and these three persons share that one thing that’s why the Bible is absolutely clear about the fact that there is one
32:0432:04 - God so I think maybe one way to think about this is you know how a you use the word copy here if you have three human
32:1332:13 - beings and one of them dies the essence of humanity is still fine for the other two right they don’t they don’t impact
32:2132:21 - each other when we say that the three beings of God have share one essence that situation just it simply does not
32:3032:30 - make sense right the the three members of the Trinity if like you can’t have one of
32:3632:36 - them cease to exist because they all exist together right um it’s not separate in the same way may maybe
32:4432:44 - that’s not helpful um it’s certainly we should be sacrificed here for or sorry we can be forgiven here
32:5232:52 - for looking at that and thinking for a second and being like man you know what it’s still kind of hard to understand
32:5732:57 - um that’s because it is we should we should we should not forget the fact that this is one of those things that we
33:0633:06 - will only see very dimly very Darkly we don’t fully get it in fact we barely get it if if we were to State again what the
33:1633:16 - Bible says about this matter it is one there is one God two the father is God the the son is God the spirit is God
33:2433:24 - three the father is not the son is not the spirit the son is not the spirit is not the
33:2933:29 - father the spirit is not the son is not the father these three concepts are what we call the Trinity when you put them
33:3733:37 - together they add up to the Trinity but how this actually works the mechanics of it how there is one God and there are
33:4533:45 - three persons who are that God does not fit into our experience as human beings in creation it just doesn’t fit we can’t
33:5533:55 - make sense of it and we will not make sense of it of it until we actually stand before the Lord insisting on
34:0234:02 - spelling it out exactly is where we’re going to go beyond what is written and that is the points that we brought it
34:0934:09 - before about the what I shall call the Eternal beting and the Eternal procession of the spirit that is exactly
34:1634:16 - what we’re talking about here that is make attempts for people to make sense of it in a way that the Bible just
34:2134:21 - really doesn’t use you know they’re they’re taking some words that have certain emology and then they’re like
34:2734:27 - fixing a cookie cutter on top of it but it’s because they’re trying to say how can you have three persons that exist as
34:3534:35 - one being how does that work and they try to make it work but we can’t because the Bible doesn’t go there that’s the
34:4234:42 - point yeah yes it’s simply so appr propo to uh to the question that was asked I would say um we can say authoritatively
34:5234:52 - that the Oneness of God is not because um Jesus Jesus is the Father’s seed with respect to his Humanity
35:0235:02 - certainly he is God’s son with respect to his deity he’s of equal standing with the father father and son are simply
35:1035:10 - titler roles here neither of them is the originator of the other that’s not how that works and the father is the spirit
35:1935:19 - is the is the Father’s Spirit sure if you’re speaking to their relationship with each other in the sense that
35:2735:27 - the if if you were to change the the word father if that were possible and we don’t really have another word for it
35:3335:33 - the Bible simply gives us the identifier father the identifier son and word and the identifier Spirit but if you could
35:4035:40 - change these identifiers we would be saying this person belongs to this person this person belongs to that
35:4735:47 - person that’s the the spirit of the father Spirit of Jesus kind of relationship but when you speak of the
35:5435:54 - spirit as originating from the father either something that comes from him in the sense of coming out of him being
36:0336:03 - generated by him or that it is the animating force of the father you’d be wrong that’s not at all what the
36:1136:11 - scriptures are saying about the spirit and that’s not what the unity of the of the Trinity is really about that’s the
36:2036:20 - answer that I have to that question I agree so that’s where we’re going to wrap for
36:2936:29 - today and uh just to go over A Brief Review we first uh basically identifi the definition of the Trinity that we
36:3736:37 - have been laying out the last few lessons so three persons one essence or one Essence and three persons and then
36:4236:42 - the four corollary points that we talked about before how the members of the Trinity are all Divine persons unique
36:4836:48 - persons co-equal and co-eternal and they all share the same Essence those are things we’ve talked about in the past
36:5436:54 - lessons and then the rest of this lesson we have spent discussing about how the Trinity can just be kind of hard to
37:0037:00 - explain properly and uh God didn’t uh necessarily give us uh you know you know the way in which god um
37:1037:10 - communicated this Doctrine to us in the Bible was intentional right he didn’t like forget to add things to it or
37:1537:15 - whatever um he has told us what we most need to know without giving us either information that could be misinterpreted
37:2237:22 - or less accurate illustrations that might do more harm than good and so uh because eternity is kind of hard to
37:2837:28 - explain properly it’s hard to understand it is something that is a bit heresy prone um but we shouldn’t seek to grasp
37:3537:35 - after um what we might term rationalistic or uh philosophical explanations for it we should just stick
37:4337:43 - with what the Bible says about it that’s the only safe path here uh to keep us uh kind of within uh uh the path of what
37:5137:51 - the Trinity is without falling into the ditch on either side of the road so that’s what we’ve talked about this time
37:5737:57 - in our next lesson we will be picking up talking about illustrations for the Trinity and uh if you are wondering well
38:0338:03 - didn’t we just say that uh you know God doesn’t give us these illustrations you’d be correct so a lot of what we’re
38:0838:08 - going to talk about next time are illustrations that have been used by people in the past um but also some of
38:1438:14 - the problems that go along with them so that’s where we will pick up uh in our next meeting
Illustrating the Trinity
Video
Summary
In this lesson we discuss illustrations that seek to help explain the Trinity. Since nothing in this created universe is truly like God, all of these illustrations are necessarily lacking in one way or another, and it is for this reason that we need to be quite wary of reading too much into them. If they help us better wrap our minds around the core teaching of the Trinity (namely, that God exists in three persons sharing one essence), then all to the good. However, we ought not ever build doctrine on top of things that are merely analogies, and analogies that are not even in scripture at that.
Timestamps
0:000:00 - Intro and outline
02:4002:40 - Perils in attempting to use illustrations for the Trinity
16:2716:27 - An illustration from the early church: the Trinity “triangle”
21:1021:10 - The illustration of the family of Man
30:1630:16 - The illustration of the human mind
38:0338:03 - Illustrations from the world of nature
48:3148:31 - Illustrations from the physical realm
54:5754:57 - Conclusions: these illustrations are only the loosest of analogies at best
01:03:4201:03:42 - Summary and outro
Content
(Derived from https://ichthys.com/1Theo.htm)
Perils in attempting to use illustrations for the Trinity
As we discussed in our last lesson, attempting to illustrate such a carefully protected doctrine as the Trinity has the potential of doing more harm than good. The fundamental problem with illustrations of the type we will consider in a moment is that they all necessarily contain potentially dangerous and untrue points of comparison, which, if too much stress be placed upon them, run the real risk of leading to heretical conclusions, a danger that far outweighs any good they may do in attempting to shed some light on the subject.
The number one objection to such illustrations is that God is divine, and since nothing and no one else is, any illustration will needs be imperfect and inaccurate (a fact which may well explain why no such illustrations occur in the Bible: Is.40:18). And there is more. Historically, Satan’s attacks on the doctrine of the Trinity – a teaching crucial to the integrity of our Christian faith – have focused on the three-fold sovereign personality of God and/or His deity in three persons. But this reality of divine, triune personality is precisely the point that all illustrations of the Trinity miss (of necessity, since there is nothing “like” the Trinity).
An illustration from the early church: the Trinity “triangle”
This oldest of the Trinity illustrations is also in many ways the best, because the non-doctrinal point of comparison (i.e., the triangle) merely serves to organize visually the meaning imparted by the words: all three members of the Trinity are God ("one in essence"), yet they are distinct from each other ("three in person"):
The illustration of the family of Man
Like the Trinity, mankind has multiple members, all possessed of similar, spiritual essences. But the Trinity share a unique, divine essence, and their triune unanimity of purpose is unlike anything in the realm of humanity.
The illustration of the human mind
Like the Trinity, the mind can be said to be at once one thing, yet at the same time several things (intellect, emotion, conscience, etc.) and can dialogue with itself, and even be at cross-purposes with itself. But the Trinity is composed of distinct, divine personalities to which the inner-workings of our psyches make a poor comparison.
Illustrations from the world of nature
There are many things in the natural world that consist of distinct, multiple parts that at the same time constitute one complete whole. For example, distinguishable branches, roots and trunk are all part of one and the same tree, and eggs have three distinct parts (yolk, white and shell) without any of which three you would no longer have an egg. None of the illustrations of this sort really help to explain the unique personalities of the Trinity or their shared divine essence.
Illustrations from the physical realm
This category of illustration contains some of the more interesting examples that have been used to explain the Trinity, though all suffer from the same objections that were lodged against the former category:
- Light is one yet distinct (and cf. God “being light”—1 John 1:5): radio is heard, visible light is seen, and infrared is felt
- The universe is one yet distinct: time, space, and matter
- Time is one yet distinct: past, present, and future
- Space is one yet distinct: length, breadth, and height
- Matter is one yet distinct: energy, matter, phenomnea
Conclusions: these illustrations are only the loosest of analogies at best
The most that can be said for the best of these illustrations is that to the extent that they remind us of the awesome wisdom and power of God in creating these complex, wonderful things (often taken for granted), they may also help us to realize that the Maker is likely to be even more complex and wonderful, and so accept what we know to be true about the Trinity (“one in essence, three in person”), even if it seems too complex and wonderful to fully grasp.
As we have said, however, care must be taken to see that none of these illustrations is taken too far, lest by attempting to understand “beyond what is written” we be led instead to dangerous and extra-biblical rationalizations based on these loose analogies. For the Trinity is often a good “litmus test” for our Christian faith. To accept it, one must accept not only the existence of God, but the distinctiveness and divinity of Jesus Christ, the true touch-stone principle that divides believers from unbelievers (1Jn.2:22-23). By distorting our understanding of the Trinity, the devil ultimately seeks to destroy our faith in Jesus Christ, the real focal point and rationale for satanic attacks that seek to confuse the issue of “one in essence, three in person”.
Video/audio transcript
00:0000:00 - all right guys so this week in our lesson we are going to be talking about illustrating the Trinity so
00:0600:06 - illustrations for the kind of the concept and the doctrine of the Trinity and so these are the points that we’re
00:1400:14 - going to be going over today we’re going to be talking about kind of how attempting to use illustrations for the
00:1900:19 - Trinity is always somewhat perilous just because uh the Trinity is God God is divine there is nothing like him in this
00:2800:28 - created world so that means just simple what’s the right word uh uh kind of process of elimination if
00:3800:38 - there’s nothing like God well then necessarily all illustrations will lack some comparative power all of them will
00:4500:45 - be necessarily imperfect um and so on account of that we just need to be very very careful that we don’t Place Focus
00:5200:52 - here on these and we don’t try to draw doctrinal conclusions off of it and things like that and so actually this
00:5900:59 - this section in the study it’s not so much teaching it’s not so much trying to explain the trinity in terms of these
01:0601:06 - illustrations as it is trying to show how these illustrations are sort of necessarily insufficient and so um we’ll
01:1401:14 - kind of see what that means a little bit more as we go on today but we’re going to start off with a very early
01:1901:19 - illustration this comes up in the early church the so-called Trinity triangle which is just a visual representation of
01:2501:25 - what we have already said that uh the father is God Jesus is God the spirit is God but the father is not the son or the
01:3301:33 - spirit the son is not the father or the spirit and the spirit is not the father or the son um you know so the is and is
01:4001:40 - not relationships now we’re going to talk about the family of man so uh mankind the human mind illustrations
01:4801:48 - from the world of nature so this is like physical nature per se uh illustrations from the Physical Realm like light for
01:5601:56 - example or the universe and then at the end we’re going to kind of come back and touch on uh this point that we started
02:0302:03 - with that basically well there you go there are some of the illustrations that have been used across times and places
02:0902:09 - in history to try to help explain the Trinity and uh you shouldn’t be very impressed basically um that is you know
02:1702:17 - we’re going to kind of end where we started on this and uh not so much that we need to like look down our noses at
02:2402:24 - you know anyone who tries to say well just as God is three yet one so to in this other area maybe maybe it helps
02:3202:32 - right but the point is it’s very dangerous to build Doctrine on it that’s going to kind of be the fundamental
02:3702:37 - point that we try to make today all right so the first point uh that we are going to be starting with in
02:4702:47 - our discussion here of illustrations for the Trinity is the kind of initial caveat the initial warning that I
02:5302:53 - mentioned going over how all of these illustrations are sort of going to be necessarily imperfect and so we did kind
03:0103:01 - of touch on this in our previous lesson here that that all attempts here to kind of illustrate such a Doctrine as the
03:0903:09 - Trinity which is so core and Central to our belief um uh just because of the importance of this there is the
03:1703:17 - potential there that this does more harm than good um so if your illustration is even a little bit off-center and people
03:2403:24 - read into it more than they should suddenly you might have harmed their understanding of the trinity because of
03:3003:30 - how important that is that is kind of a very bad thing and so the fundamental problem with illustrations of kind of
03:3803:38 - the type that we’re going to be going over today is that if you take them too far if you put too much stress upon them
03:4503:45 - you do run the real risk of leading to heretical conclusions um and it’s not going to be so direct uh in as much as
03:5403:54 - the second you look at one of these suddenly your entire understanding of God is going to become like overly
03:5903:59 - complicated you’re not going to know heads from tals anymore it’s that basically if you start reading into it
04:0604:06 - if you start trying to make the analogy fit that’s when you’re going to run into problems and so the basic idea here is
04:1404:14 - that uh it’s it’s really more like um we want to make sure that we don’t do more harm than good right that Do no harm
04:2104:21 - principle that doctors sometimes um try to abide by um that is the sort of idea that we are going to be going into this
04:3004:30 - discussion with and uh the fundamental problem kind of mentioned this a little bit in the introduction there was that
04:3704:37 - um the illustrations here are trying to illustrate a Divine being using things from the created realm and nothing in
04:4704:47 - this creation is it all like God we have talked about this previously in discussing God’s Essence um so uh uh his
04:5604:56 - uniqueness um his sovereignty within the material Universe there’s no one else like God there is no other being no
05:0305:03 - other created thing that is at all like him um you know and that’s in regard to his infinite nature and his perfect
05:0905:09 - character as we have gone over in the past here and so that simply means Again by process of or the process of of
05:1705:17 - elimination here that there is absolutely nothing that will serve as a good parallel as a truly good analogy
05:2405:24 - for God is that all of these things will necessarily fall short that doesn’t mean that they’re evil it just means that
05:2905:29 - they’re insufficient and there’s kind of more to this even um Satan attacks the Trinity he always has um Satan’s always
05:3805:38 - looking for ways to kind of interfere with our understanding of of God’s truth and attacking the Divinity of Jesus
05:4605:46 - Christ the Divinity of any members of the Trinity or just the teaching of the trinity in general The three-fold
05:5305:53 - Sovereign personality of God and and the deity of the three persons all of these have always been kind of uh important
06:0006:00 - attack vectors in Satan’s plan because if Satan can compromise someone on these issues they’re just hop skip and a jump
06:0706:07 - away from compromising on what makes us Christian in fact depending on exactly what we mean by compromise getting
06:1406:14 - people to stumble here already uh kind of messes with the core beliefs that we need to hold as Christians and so the
06:2306:23 - problem with all this is that this Triune personality this is exactly the point that illustrations of Trinity Miss
06:3006:30 - like they cannot in any way do this right and so it’s a little bit subtle here right you know rather than Satan uh
06:3806:38 - coming right up to someone and being like the Trinity is false and then most Christians would be kind of uh I guess
06:4706:47 - we we’d be primed to look at someone and say no it isn’t because and and then you know go into an explanation of how the
06:5306:53 - Bible talks about it like we’ve been talking about right it is we’d have a knee-jerk reaction to this but but when
07:0007:00 - someone else instead says the Trinity is like and then presents some example they’re not so much attacking the
07:0707:07 - Trinity headon as they are making this comparison and see this is why it’s a little bit more subtle because if they
07:1507:15 - were attacking the Trinity headon we would recognize it for the challenge to correct doctrine that that such a thing
07:2107:21 - would be but when people instead give what I would call an imperfect comparison maybe we give them the
07:2707:27 - benefit of the doubt more or we don’t recognize it as being dangerous to our own understanding but if we buy into it
07:3507:35 - it is still coloring our understanding of God because fundamentally if the first things out of our mouth are not
07:4107:41 - something along the lines of God is divine and outside of SpaceTime and nothing is like him therefore we
07:5007:50 - basically um trying to think about the right what it says you don’t want to come off as hyper legalistic either the
07:5507:55 - point needs to be nothing can truly compare to God so we need to discuss this Doctrine uh what I would call
08:0108:01 - theologically we need to treat it without kid gloves without trying to rationalize it as this thing that is
08:0808:08 - fundamentally incomprehensible in some sense to us as finite humans and we shouldn’t apologize for that that’s just
08:1308:13 - how it is that’s what it means for God to be an infinite being outside of SpaceTime while we are finite beings
08:2008:20 - within SpaceTime like we’re just never going to completely get it and we need to make peace with that rather than
08:2508:25 - trying to explain it all way so we need to always come in to discussions when such a thing would come up with that
08:3208:32 - being the starting point and we again we shouldn’t we shouldn’t like shame people for it we should just stand firm on the
08:3808:38 - truth and the point that I’m saying here is that the comparisons due to the imperfection that is present in them we
08:4608:46 - need to recognize them as dangerous we need to accept that if we actually look to them for teaching they can mislead us
08:5408:54 - and that is just kind of a different starting point than where some people may land on this thing and that’s why
09:0009:00 - we’re trying to make this point kind of more explicitly up front a do you have any thoughts you want to jump off of
09:0609:06 - anything I said okay so yeah um I think that the bottom line is to keep in mind the
09:1809:18 - danger of using any illustration but as with pretty much anything else in the Bible our job is to
09:2709:27 - learn what the truth is and for us who are teachers our job is to teach and sometimes to teach you have to use
09:3309:33 - imperfect analogies I mean Lord Jesus was always doing that his Parables he would he would talk about things that
09:4109:41 - weren’t exactly the thing he was talking about but there was something in those things that resonated with the realities
09:4709:47 - of which he spoke so for example he would say that the kingdom of God is like um uh Mustard Seed how about
09:5609:56 - mustard seed or I think particular one I was interested in is uh a bit of Leaven that you put in a loaf and it leavens
10:0510:05 - the whole lump you know something like that and you know you could push that really far and you’d have all sorts of
10:1310:13 - problems with it I mean there are people today who are thinking and probably not necessarily because of that um uh that
10:2110:21 - analogy that the kingdom of God is supposed to expand and keep expanding and basically they have this thing we
10:2810:28 - call Dominion theology which is essentially that the world is going to get better and better and the church
10:3310:33 - will eventually consume it before the Lord Jesus will return Lord Jesus will return to a world that has turned to God
10:4010:40 - essentially that’s what some people would make of that but in fact what he was saying was a completely different
10:4510:45 - thing which was it might be small at the moment when he was talking about the population of people who actually were
10:5310:53 - you know walking with the Lord there has always been a very small minority of people throughout the the
10:5910:59 - ages who have been walking with God but what he was saying is that now there was going to be an explosion and what was
11:0711:07 - hither to seemingly confined to Israel was going to spread throughout the entire world that was what he was
11:1311:13 - essentially saying but of course when you use that analogy you have to accommodate the fact that that analogy
11:1911:19 - is not the thing itself we will need these analogies we will need these illustrations just to get to wrap our
11:2611:26 - minds around something that would otherwise be inconceivable to us and the Lord has actually he built the world he
11:3311:33 - built this universe that we live in to tell us about himself that’s a very important thing Psalm 19 and Revelation
11:4111:41 - and and Romans 1 both attest to this that the world in which we live tell tells us something
11:4811:48 - about what and who God is of course it doesn’t give us the entire Revelation the Revelation it gives is very limited
11:5811:58 - but for someone who loves the truth and wants to know about the Lord you can use things in the world around you to
12:0612:06 - appreciate and understand the Lord a bit more and for someone whose job it is to communicate the truth about the Lord to
12:1312:13 - others you can use things in the world that people can relate to to understand some more about the Lord but we have to
12:2112:21 - never forget that an analogy is no more than an an analogy and when you’re comparing anything to God himself that
12:3012:30 - is a necessarily flawed comparison because just as Steven said there is nothing in the universe that is quite
12:4012:40 - like God so we can only say in this way and in that way this thing could throw some light on something about God but we
12:4912:49 - should not take the thing too far and come to to think of it in ways that are inappropriate that do not fit the
12:5712:57 - Revelation that we have of the the Lord in the scriptures so um again not demonizing using
13:0513:05 - illustrations but certainly being cautious and reserved in our use of them I mean I just Ed Kind of a Funny
13:1513:15 - anecdote I’m sure many folks are aware of kind of the parable the of the sheep and the goats right talking about the
13:2213:22 - separation and last judgment there is nothing inherently evil about one or the other right as if one animal is like on
13:3113:31 - account of this physical characteristic or that physical characteristic you see what I’m saying like that is pushing the
13:3813:38 - analogy quite a bit too far there’s it’s just the point is there will be a separation in the final judgment um yes
13:4613:46 - and yes I mean a lot of this things you would think would be common sense of no that’s just an analogy it doesn’t mean
13:5313:53 - what you’re saying it means but people do go there so you know that is just Why we have to head off that sort of thing
14:0014:00 - now I will say just as perhaps giving a bit of intuition to why ought we be cautious in this you
14:0714:07 - know like maybe you say what’s the harm you know maybe maybe if it helps us so uh we we have touched on a little bit
14:1314:13 - how basically giving too much ear here it it tries to what I would call like physicalize God too much we try to fit
14:2214:22 - him into a box that we can understand but the thing is you shouldn’t put God in a box because he doesn’t live in one
14:2814:28 - right he’s Unbound um there’s this interesting interplay this was brought up by someone when we paused briefly for
14:3514:35 - a sec also with the idea of no graven images it’s one of the Ten Commandments here right um what we do when we try to
14:4414:44 - conceptualize God in a way that basically we have not been given leave to is we are trying to make an image of
14:5114:51 - him um maybe it’s not as obvious as I don’t know you know like making a statue and calling it God but to the extent
14:5914:59 - that we try to make him physical we we make him bounded in the sense that we can then feel like we actually
15:0715:07 - understand him we have actually taken God and reduced him to something he is not um and yes that’s the severity of it
15:1615:16 - right it is you’re breaking one of The Commandments here you know like it’s not it’s not like an oh shrug who cares sort
15:2215:22 - of thing it’s a we need to respect God as we ought as the omnipotent creator of the universe who cannot be put into a
15:3115:31 - physical box you just can’t um if you if you call a physical box like that God you don’t really understand well not
15:3915:39 - that we will ever perfectly understand who God is but basically whatever conception you think you have is just
15:4315:43 - woefully insufficient right um yeah and that’s just why it’s not legalism here it’s not legalism to say that we really
15:5215:52 - got to be careful not to go too far we really have to be careful what we say and what conclusions we draw it’s not
15:5815:58 - just cu we’re trying to be pedantic or audite or academic and look down our noses at people it’s because we do not
16:0516:05 - want to get in the habit of trying to make God physical trying to make him something that we can perfectly
16:1216:12 - understand and metabolize because that’s not God it’s just it’s just not accurate um and the Bible itself weighs in
16:2016:20 - against it so we don’t need to be super shy about it is what I’m saying um yeah yes
16:2716:27 - great so the first of the actual illustrations that we are going to be using here comes
16:3516:35 - from the early church you know it is attested in in various places and in many ways this one is the safest of all
16:4316:43 - illustrations you might use because it’s basically just a visual way to represent the information that we’ve already gone
16:5016:50 - over so I stole this picture off of VI this I did not make this picture um and you know it looks much the same no
16:5616:56 - matter where you get it from um but if you see God in the middle of the triangle um well the father is God the
17:0417:04 - son is God the holy spirit is God but you can see here based on these sides you know like the sides of the triangle
17:1017:10 - the father is not the son the father is not the spirit the spirit is not the father there spirit is not the son and
17:1617:16 - then the son is not the spirit and the son is not the father so it just represents all of the
17:2117:21 - relationships that kind of get to what three persons in one Essence means you know that is that all three members of
17:2817:28 - the trinity are God but they are not each other by personality so hence three persons one Essence um and so as I say
17:3617:36 - this is sort of the safe illustration um because it is visually representing the points that we need to teach when we
17:4517:45 - teach the Trinity um that they are all God and yet they are distinct from each other and it just puts it in a picture
17:5117:51 - basically so I’m a little bit I what’s the right word it’s not that this isn’t an illustration because well it is kind
17:5817:58 - of a visual representation of it but I don’t quite think of this in the same terms as I think of some of the rest of
18:0418:04 - the things that we’ll go over and you’ll see a little bit more what I mean by that in in a moment but I actually think
18:1018:10 - this one is absolutely fine I even think it’s a good thing for us to bring up when we teach on this just so that
18:1518:15 - people can see it all in front of them you know maybe rather than reading three or four sentences they just look at the
18:2118:21 - picture and they say ah that is what we mean when we say that the members of the Trinity are all God but they’re not each
18:2818:28 - other um aie do you have thoughts on this initial
18:3318:33 - one yeah my my thought is exactly that I wish I had your optimism about people people are very interesting um there is
18:4318:43 - a very popular um symbol so to speak out there in media in during the Illuminati Madness that the entire world
18:5618:56 - got engulfed in for a bit um that that that picture was very very big they had it’s actually in in your in your dollar
19:0519:05 - bills I I don’t know if it’s just the $1 bill or the higher denominations but there was a pyramid with an eye on it
19:1419:14 - right so exactly so people get caught up in things like that and you would be very surprised how people could make a
19:2319:23 - triangle that’s just explanatory it’s not even there’s nothing about it that should be special they can turn it into
19:3019:30 - something that it is not the human heart is very idolatrous incredibly idolatrous and that’s what we’re warning about
19:3819:38 - really we’re saying the illustration is not the thing itself the illustration is not the Trinity illustration is not God
19:4619:46 - so don’t get it into your mind that oh maybe because this is such a good representation of God triangles are
19:5219:52 - somehow mystical Divine yeah actually you know I know teaches about other places but you know
19:5919:59 - how the holy of holies in the temple is this perfect Cube we got more we got more evidence for that than we do
20:0520:05 - triangles is what I’m saying but even that is like not it’s supposed to show the perfect equality of the three sides
20:1220:12 - in physical space it’s still just it’s still just an illustration right there’s no power to it but exactly just for
20:2020:20 - example another three-dimensional object that is mentioned in scripture doesn’t mean that that is God right or that
20:2720:27 - cubes are somehow holy and like I don’t know trapezoids or or what’s a I guess trapezoids are two dimensional not
20:3420:34 - threedimensional aren’t they but whatever you get the point that spheres are not holy because cubes are holy you
20:3920:39 - see what I’m saying like that it’s nonsense but yeah so we should we shouldn’t get caught up in all of that
20:4620:46 - is the point it’s it’s just a very good illustration it it doesn’t mean anything more than that yeah all right well I
20:5420:54 - think that is mostly what we have to say on this one you know this one has less potential to lead astray I suppose
21:0021:00 - unless you get thinking that triangles are somehow Godly um but as long as you avoid that for the most part you’re not
21:0721:07 - gonna get off in using this one so in terms of the first what we might call actual analogy here um
21:1921:19 - previously we’ just been talking about the Trinity triangle as a visual representation well we’re going to be
21:2421:24 - talking about the illustration of the family of man so of humanity or humankind here so like the Trinity
21:3221:32 - mankind has multiple members all possessed of similar spiritual Essences but here’s the difference the Trinity
21:3921:39 - shares a unique Divine Essence and their triun UNAM unanimity of purpose is unlike anything in the realm of humanity
21:4721:47 - and so we are of a kind as humans so my spiritual composition is like that of everyone else on this call is like that
21:5521:55 - of everyone else in the world you know some s bil people over but the thing is we do not share an Essence so even
22:0422:04 - though we are similar and how we are made up spiritually we do not have a Unity of purpose we do not have a Unity
22:1022:10 - of agreement asent our plans no matter how you slice it two human beings even identical twins who grew up in the same
22:1922:19 - set of circumstances with the same parents everything and they share the same goals they work at the same company
22:2522:25 - you can you can stack as many variables as you want and those two human beings will still not at all be United in the
22:3522:35 - way that gets us even close to how United the members of the Trinity are um and so hopefully you can see in some
22:4322:43 - senses all of us are human yet all of us are not the same is kind of sort of like you know there are three members of the
22:5222:52 - Trinity but they’re all God right but the problem where this one falls apart is that they’re not not like they don’t
22:5922:59 - all share you know similar makeup and are yet somehow distinct because the problem with this analogy in terms of
23:0723:07 - some of the specific Doctrine we’ve talked about previously is that the whole concept of a Pantheon of three
23:1423:14 - Gods would kind of work with this one too right um but yet we know that is false and
23:2023:20 - heretical so in some ways this analogy kind of gives us the wrong idea right aie you have anything you want to
23:2923:29 - say yeah um you’re right you’re right the fact that um we human beings have certain qualities similar to the Trinity
23:4323:43 - or that we can talk about the fact that the Trinity is made up of different persons just like mankind is made up of
23:5023:50 - different persons ultimately leads to you know questions about why there are not three Gods I mean there are so many
23:5823:58 - different human beings and we can say human beings so if these are persons in their own right individuals in their own
24:0724:07 - right and forgive me if I’m not exactly hitting on what you were saying um but if when we see that dispar or
24:1824:18 - when we try to make that comparison it does lead to that disparity human beings are distinct from each other and not
24:2424:24 - just distinct from each other we’re not bound in that unit that we find in the Trinity so it leads people to eventually
24:3324:33 - when you start making those comparisons it can lead someone to you know getting the wrong idea of what the Trinity
24:3924:39 - really is like they may be made the Trinity may be made up of three different individuals three distinct
24:4724:47 - individuals just like humanity is made up of so many different individuals but they’re they share an
24:5524:55 - Essence in a way that we human beings don’t share an Essence so we again we can get lost just making that comparison
25:0725:07 - looking at things in that light we should you know beware of it it’s enough to say that the same way that I am a
25:1625:16 - different person from Step my thoughts are my thoughts they’re not Steven’s thoughts the things I want to do may not
25:2525:25 - be anything like what Stephen wants to do this is how we understand our individualism it is possible to carry
25:3325:33 - that analogy too far and expect to find the same thing in the Trinity if they are necessarily distinct
25:4025:40 - individuals but no what you will find in the Trinity is more along the lines of they share the same desires and
25:5025:50 - whatnot they they are different individuals distinct from each other and yet there is no daylight between what
25:5825:58 - the father wants and what the son wants and what the spirit wants there is no difference between the way they perceive
26:0626:06 - reality so the father sees things the way the son does and the way the spirit does that would be difficult for us to
26:1426:14 - wrap our minds around considering that human beings are not like that no human beings no two human beings are exactly
26:2026:20 - the same in their reasoning about anything in their conceptions of reality or in their aspirations life yes I think
26:2926:29 - you can get closer in some situations so I know it’s two people not three but if you think about the love and care that a
26:3626:36 - mother and a father have for their child like let’s say it’s about saving their child from certain harm they’d probably
26:4326:43 - be pretty United on that but all it takes to see that one fall apart so that’s going from the family of man you
26:5026:50 - know with large to perhaps the family of man in a nuclear family but when you think about disagreements parents have
26:5626:56 - about how to raise their children that Unity goes out the window immediately right but you could sort of
27:0227:02 - see you can see flashes of it right you know because the loved care that a mother and a father have for their child
27:1027:10 - you know it’s not like the Trinity is exactly like that but it is a more accurate reflection than some other
27:1827:18 - analogies right you know it’s closer um that’s the unity right um yeah and it’s it’s sort of a shadow of it I would say
27:2827:28 - yes yes and but but like you said when you look at that it it if if if we go I like the way that someone
27:3727:37 - actually put it on clubhouse he was saying to another person in a debate that the person was using anthropology
27:4327:43 - to interpret theology which which is just wrong God is not like man you could say man is like God because a lot a lot
27:5427:54 - of our quality a lot of what makes us human is based on what and who God is right so you could you could see how
28:0328:03 - we’re modeled after God but God is Not modeled after us so we’re going to find very quickly that a lot of things that
28:1028:10 - might apply because of our individuality because we are separate individuals from one
28:1728:17 - another things that apply to us don’t apply to God in terms of his own individuality so that’s that’s where we
28:2528:25 - have to be very care careful about um the the connections that we have with each other but like you said it is true
28:3628:36 - that we can have things that look very similar to the unity that they have the a mother and a father having a child and
28:4428:44 - wanting the best for their child they want to raise their child right and all of that they can synchronize in their
28:5028:50 - thoughts through discussion and whatnot but we should not think that because they can do that that they Unity
28:5728:57 - of the Trinity is similar to that that the father and son and and the spirit sit down in a conference and try to
29:0329:03 - marry their thoughts with each other and figure out how I basically reach some compromise over how things ought to be
29:1129:11 - it doesn’t work you know what maybe the best way to say this hopefully this gets a chuckle out of people is that the
29:1629:16 - universe is not ruled by a committee let’s put it like that right exactly that is the wrong way to think about it
29:2429:24 - um yeah so the Trinity is not a comedy that it’s it’s it’s certainly not that’s one thing we should keep in mind yeah
29:3229:32 - yeah so now this is what we mean um and we’ll kind of return to this point as we go through these you know all of these
29:3929:39 - illustrations but I hope you can see how you can sort of see bits and bits and flashes and shadows here of maybe kind
29:4829:48 - of how we can see parallels but it should be clear I hope that this cannot capture really who got is what God is
29:5829:58 - because it’s just not complete right um yeah the information is not complete that’s just it we don’t have all of it
30:0730:07 - yeah yeah we can’t handle it if it were so there that goes yep so that is our first example
30:1830:18 - here so now we are going to be talking about the illustration of the human mind so like the Trinity the mind can be to
30:2730:27 - be at once one thing yet at the same time several things such as intellect emotion
30:3330:33 - Consciousness and C sorry Etc and can dialogue with itself and even be it cross purposes with itself but the
30:4130:41 - Trinity is composed of distinct Divine personalities to which the inner workings of our psyches make a poor
30:4630:46 - comparison now in this particular one we as human beings we are individuals so we are made up of Flesh and spirit but if
30:5630:56 - you ever read galatian chapter 5 ought to be pretty clear that you know the Flesh and the spirit are it polar you
31:0431:04 - know they’re always at each other’s throat that’s Galatians 5:17 um you know they oppose one another what Unity right
31:1231:12 - um so even when you think about this um one tension that you will see come up quite a lot um in what we might term
31:2031:20 - philosophy it’s just it’s a theme in literary writing is what we might term intellect and logic versus emotion right
31:2731:27 - um uh unfortunately sometimes this tends to get stereotyped across gender lines more than is probably appropriate uh I.E
31:3631:36 - men are not always terribly logical and women are not always terribly emotional to the point that it interferes with
31:4131:41 - logic but this tension there does exist within us as humans um and you know we know as Christians that we ought not let
31:5031:50 - our emotions lead and you know at the same time we know that you know certain things that might seem on the surface to
31:5731:57 - be logical are in fact great evil right so Eugenics for example we’re say we’re only going to let the really smart
32:0432:04 - people reproduce does not lead to Ideal Utopias right that is a very immoral sort of
32:1232:12 - thing to believe in um and so that’s what we mean here by the human mind you know we are composed of these multiple
32:2032:20 - elements um well in as much as I don’t know psychologists and stuff name certain aspect of what they call the
32:2832:28 - human psyche all of them together they don’t have a Unity of purpose um and you know I would say of illustrations this
32:3832:38 - one I think sort of self-evidently um how do you even identify uh the people in play here
32:4632:46 - shall we say um you know intellect and emotion I just gave a couple examples of kind of the two sides of the road both
32:5332:53 - leading to a ditch when it comes to that but conscience for example um you know all of these
33:0033:00 - other things that compete desire perhaps would be another one or will or I mean philosophers have all sorts of names for
33:1033:10 - philosophy of Mind type Concepts but um a you want to go on anything else before I say anything
33:1633:16 - more yeah um yeah the like you said the human mind is a composition of multiple things all
33:2633:26 - of us have feelings we we we experience emotion all of us also experience thought um and we know it as a separate
33:3433:34 - thing from feeling because I mean you might not feel very you might not have much in the way of feeling when you are
33:4333:43 - trying to make some mathematical computation or something you’re thinking when you’re doing that and sometimes you
33:4933:49 - have to make a lot of dispassionate decisions that where your emotions don’t really come into
33:5533:55 - play but we you know that when you have feelings and emotions there are still you know qualities of the mind that you
34:0334:03 - express and then when you have to weigh um moral situations that’s still something that your mind you know does
34:1234:12 - so all of these things are aspects of our like you said psyche that in that same way we can we
34:1934:19 - can say that the the Trinity is multiple people but one
34:2734:27 - just like the mind is one you don’t think of your emotions and your thoughts as maybe being from
34:3734:37 - different sources like it’s not your mind one is your mind and the other is something else we talk about the mind
34:4334:43 - and the heart that’s some that’s poetical and whatnot but we do know that whether you’re talking about the mind or
34:5034:50 - the heart we’re talking about something the seat of human being the person of the human being this is
34:5934:59 - where all of this stuff goes on our moral judgment our our our thinking our intellect our feeling and whatever else
35:0835:08 - happens in this place this is it’s all one thing happening in one place right so we get that all of this somehow
35:1735:17 - speaks to what the Trinity is like and The Trinity is multiple people multiple persons but also one
35:2735:27 - it’s one it’s it’s not a divided thing because it’s multiple persons but of course the analogy breaks down when you
35:3635:36 - see that in fact your intellect and your emotions are not always aligned I mean you can be for example in love with the
35:4535:45 - wrong person and you know it’s the wrong person because all you have to do is think about it for a second someone who
35:5235:52 - is absolutely wrong for you in every sense of that that word and yet your emotions
35:5835:58 - go like I don’t care that’s the person I want end of story you’re going to die from this but yeah so what I still want
36:0836:08 - it that happens and then your moral judgment I think everybody knows this point you know that your moral judgment
36:1436:14 - is telling you this is just not the thing for you to do it’s just wrong on all levels and you’re like yeah but I
36:2236:22 - still want it and you can actually set your intellect against your your moral judgment so when you consider this this
36:2836:28 - is still one mind the human mind where all of this conflict is occurring so even though it’s one thing that has
36:3836:38 - multiple Expressions if you will or multiple aspects to it it’s still in Conflict a thing that is not the case
36:4636:46 - with the Trinity there is never any conflict in the Trinity contrast I think a good word to
36:5436:54 - use here is peace right we understand that the only way we get peace is through the indwelling of the Holy
37:0137:01 - Spirit when we submit to God but it’s like a sharp contrast right we our minds are fundamentally without God are not at
37:1037:10 - peace you know like we literally call it the battlefield of the heart yeah so tell me people who use this analogy do
37:1837:18 - you want to say that the members of the Trinity are at war with each other you know you can see I’m being somewhat
37:2437:24 - vicious here but like this is again it’s like well if we can’t say that then what uses the analogy right past a certain
37:3237:32 - point yeah it just it isn’t because it’s not descriptive of God it doesn’t work um and
37:3837:38 - so yeah there’s multiple things that are at the same time distinct yet one but not like the Trinity is um so and we’re
37:4837:48 - just gonna we’re gonna harp on that over and over again as we go through these just because that is the core Point here
37:5237:52 - is that you can see bits and flashes but it doesn’t completely work um yeah yeah that’s the
38:0538:05 - point next we’re going to look at illustrations from the world of nature so we’re not talking so much about the
38:1238:12 - physical Universe in terms of what we might call Natural laws and phenomena here as we are talking about like I
38:1938:19 - don’t know think like forest trees waterfalls that sort of thing um so there’s many things in the natural world
38:2438:24 - that consist of distinct multip parts that at the same time constitute one complete whole so distinguishable
38:3138:31 - branches roots and trunk are all part of one and the same tree for example and here’s a pretty famous analogy uh eggs
38:3938:39 - have three distinct Parts yoke white and shell without any which of the three you would no longer have an egg none of
38:4638:46 - these illustrations really help to explain the unique personalities of the Trinity or shared Divine Essence so what
38:5438:54 - we might say by that is that you know if we were to say that uh yoke is egg and white is egg and shell is
39:0439:04 - egg it kind of doesn’t work perfectly because technically speaking the yoke is only like one out of three parts of the
39:1239:12 - egg right and so I don’t know how far you want to push that so you say is God God if he’s not try you I mean like what
39:2039:20 - is the essence of deity but where I’m going with this is that even even if you accept okay you know what these things
39:2839:28 - at least get to that idea of multiple components each making up one hole it says absolutely nothing about
39:3639:36 - the persons in the Trinity right so uh just not to put you fine a point on it but if you say God is like eggs people
39:4439:44 - are gonna look at you and be like what do you mean you know like you see what I’m saying because like it just it that
39:5239:52 - particular statement is not what I would call didactically helpful right if you say God is like an egg and you say it as
40:0040:00 - though it means something Grand someone’s gonna ask you but Mr teacher sir what am I supposed to get out of
40:0840:08 - that you know like and see that’s the problem here because the second is now you have to start explaining Divine
40:1540:15 - personalities eggs don’t have Divine personalities right um eggs don’t have any personalities at all because eggs
40:2140:21 - are immaterial objects um it just like it it’s not I I should say that you know some of the other things we’ve been
40:2940:29 - talking about I think actually like can really like like they don’t fit because of what we might call serious comparison
40:4040:40 - problems like the mind that we were just talking about the battlefield of the heart is really really different from
40:4540:45 - the unity that the members of the Trinity share these aren’t so much really really different as it’s kind of
40:5140:51 - like trying to explain something with an analogy that doesn’t really work you know so I don’t know if you’ve ever had
40:5840:58 - a coworker or a friend or something you know they’re like telling a story or they’re trying to use an example and
41:0541:05 - they just like pick a really bad example so that whatever they’re trying to explain like just doesn’t follow from it
41:1241:12 - um this happened to me before you know or they they just like or in an argument someone is making an argument and they
41:1941:19 - pick something to support their evidence that just like does not follow right um so today is today is Tuesday therefore
41:3041:30 - it will rain you know like those two things are causally unrelated it it doesn’t doesn’t make sense right um and
41:3841:38 - and to me that is closer to what this is than anything else is that not so much that these things are
41:4441:44 - like like they’re not gonna give you the wrong idea so much as that you just don’t get any idea at all because like
41:4941:49 - they’re just not the same you know like eggs to be to be very clear eggs are not like human beings either because eggs
41:5641:56 - immaterial objects they don’t have personality or will right yeah it’s non- living things and you know like it’s
42:0242:02 - just not the same um so how the analogy might help when we’re talking about eggs for example is still speaking to the
42:1142:11 - fact that God is one you know so it’s it’s not it’s not the best analogy but you can see
42:1942:19 - how something that has multiple Parts is still one it’s it’s it’s not multiple things it’s one thing but of course
42:3042:30 - where the analogy breaks down as all analogies break down I mean anyone who has written anything in this world would
42:3742:37 - would say that it’s it’s a very common thing on all analogies breakdown so this is not one of the best possible
42:4342:43 - analogies you could make but it still points to one thing where you have multiple things and those multiple
42:5242:52 - things are one thing now the analogy breaks down in that neither of them is really the
42:5842:58 - complete egg so uh if if you were to remove the yolk is the yolk the egg well the yolk is part of an egg without the
43:0843:08 - yolk do you really have an egg um the white without the white do you really have an egg without the shell well do
43:1843:18 - you really have an egg all of these things together you know speak to the egg the egg is all these things and none
43:2743:27 - of these things but but then that’s where the analogy breaks down the father is God the spirit is God the son is God
43:3643:36 - they’re all individually God they’re not parts of God so clearly the analogy here breaks down in that the yoke is not the
43:4843:48 - egg but without the Yoke you don’t have an egg so we see I mean I’m not even sure I
43:5543:55 - would go so far as to dive into the specifics here in terms of what we might term ontology just because when you do
44:0244:02 - that you’re kind of already going down this path of philosophizing the egg into a being with what what we would call UIA
44:1144:11 - that’s the Greek word for being like it’s just they like I said it’s two things of a different class so it’s like
44:1744:17 - if you’re playing 20 questions with someone and you say mineral but you’re thinking of a carrot right like it’s not
44:2444:24 - I’m just saying that they’re not they’re not too things of a kind is what I’m saying yeah they’re not even close um
44:3044:30 - there’s a point I’ve been wanting to make for a little bit but I I kept I kept forgetting it it was essentially
44:3644:36 - this that when we are making these analogies um I hope I I haven’t forgotten it again when we’re making
44:4444:44 - these analogies when we’re talking about these things the goal is to is to show us what we have talked about once that
44:5344:53 - even though a lot of things about God super logical in the sense that they are beyond our ability to reason they’re not
45:0245:02 - illogical in that they don’t even you know fit into what makes sense so to speak they
45:1345:13 - do make sense but the thing is we don’t have enough information to fully comprehend it to fully understand it so
45:2145:21 - um besides we don’t have the ability to even understand that information if we had it so likewise the argument that one
45:2945:29 - could make with respect to any analogy we’re making is it’s not out of place to conceive of something like the Trinity
45:3845:38 - it’s not an an illogical concept it’s just not one we can fully grasp because when you look into our experience as
45:4645:46 - human beings limited by time and space and Immortal body we can see things in our experience that say oh something
45:5545:55 - like like this is possible even though clearly it is not this so we can say this thing we’re talking about is not
46:0646:06 - beyond the limit of of possibility it’s not one of those things that are absurd it’s just too much to fully comprehend
46:1646:16 - well so yeah it doesn’t derive a logical contradiction perhaps a way and I would say that the problem is if you word
46:2446:24 - things a certain way that’s where people run into trouble they say God is one yet God is three but what do they mean by
46:3146:31 - God is one and what do they mean by God is three because that’s why you can’t omit the persons in the essence from the
46:3746:37 - definition of the Trinity because if you say God is one yet God is three that’s the that’s the definition of the Trinity
46:4446:44 - you’ve omitted The crucial information that the teaching of the Trinity is that God is one in essence and three in
46:5146:51 - person and you can’t leave those things out because yeah otherwise like what what you’re saying
46:5946:59 - what depends what you mean right because that statement actually one does not equal three in terms of numerical Logic
47:0647:06 - for example but that’s not what we’re claiming is the thing we’re not claiming that God is one person and three people
47:1347:13 - that is the equivalency that would derive a logical contradiction right yes yes exactly the two things are not the
47:2047:20 - same we’re not talking about the same thing on two sides of an equation right we’re not talking about God has one
47:2647:26 - Essence yet God has three Essences or God is one person yet God is three people we are saying neither of those
47:3247:32 - things we are saying that God has one Essence but he is three persons see what I’m saying and therefore there is no
47:3947:39 - logical contradiction not inherent in logic it’s just hard to understand that’s all um because there is nothing
47:4747:47 - else that is multiple persons from the same Essence in all of existence right that’s that that’s
47:5447:54 - literally all there is to it but ai’s point is very important and we should emphasize that reemphasize it the
48:0048:00 - Trinity is not an illogical Doctrine it is just outside the scope of human experience and understanding because we
48:0748:07 - are finite beings don’t really understand what an eternal existence is much less Eternal Unity of will things
48:1648:16 - like this we just kind of can’t sink our fingers into it past a certain point because it’s outside the scope of our
48:2248:22 - experience but that’s very different from it being iCal in a formal logic sense yeah
48:3448:34 - yeah all right so the next type of illustration we’re going to be talking about here that people sometimes use in
48:4148:41 - discussing the Trinity uh is the illustrations coming from the Physical Realm so this category of illustration
48:4948:49 - for the Trinity contains some of the perhaps more interesting examples that have ever been used when people have
48:5548:55 - tried to map things from the material Universe uh onto the Trinity to help us kind of understand it contextualize it
49:0349:03 - uh in material terms but they all suffer from the same objections that were lodged against the former category that
49:1049:10 - is you know when we were talking about things from nature like an egg which has the Yol the White and the shell for
49:1649:16 - example um any of which three you would no longer have an egg but the problem with this sort like we had said was that
49:2449:24 - none of these illustrations really help explain the personalities of the Trinity because while it is true that without
49:3049:30 - any of those three things you no longer have an egg which is good you know because that’s true of the Trinity as
49:3549:35 - well if you don’t have Jesus it’s not the Trinity if you don’t have the father it’s not the Trinity if you don’t have
49:3949:39 - the son it’s not the Trinity but you know an egg yoke doesn’t have personality so um it it it’s limited in
49:4649:46 - its power to describe exactly how the Trinity works and like we said this is just true across the board for all of
49:5349:53 - our illustrations because none of them them can properly capture you know the Divine being of God who external
50:0050:00 - SpaceTime they just can’t um so these illustrations here unlike nature where you know the egg was one of the examples
50:0750:07 - we used we have several examples here so uh maybe starting out with an easy one uh light is one yet distinct and we
50:1750:17 - might also compare actually God being light coming from 1 John 1 verse5 um that God is light and in him there is no
50:2550:25 - Darkness so God has actually described as being light but you don’t want to push this one too far in saying that uh
50:3150:31 - so when we say that light is one yet distinct we’re primarily talking about wavelengths here so if anyone remembers
50:3850:38 - back to their physics class we know that a radio is you know uh a electromagnetic radiation of a specific wavelength on
50:4750:47 - the Spectrum Radio is heard or well I mean we don’t hear it with our ears but you know like you know E Equipment can
50:5750:57 - uh you know take the radio waves and convert them into sound um because sound waves are a different type of wave than
51:0151:01 - electromagnetic but radio is heard visible light is seen so you might think uh across the rainbow Spectrum uh so red
51:1051:10 - light on one end and blue light on the other actually have different wavelengths um so unless I’m M I believe
51:1751:17 - I’d have to actually go look but I think red wav is like a longer wavelength and blue is uh shorter wavelength maybe blue
51:2451:24 - is higher frequency I don’t remember blue light has more energy I remember that from physics um but infrared is
51:3051:30 - another type of electromagnetic radiation so all of these things we can call light yet no one of them has like a
51:4051:40 - monopoly on light right they’re all equally light yet they’re not the same uh like they’re not equivalent to each
51:4751:47 - other right so that’s in the same way this is where the analogy part comes in the father is God and the spirit is God
51:5451:54 - and the son is God but they are not each other in the same way that radio is light visible light is light and
52:0152:01 - infrared is light or electromag electromagnetic radiation if you prefer but all of those things are not each
52:0952:09 - other um so uh just more examples here we say the universe is one yet distinct in that the universe is composed of time
52:1852:18 - space and matter and all of those things are the universe but time is not space and space is not matter and matter is
52:2452:24 - not time right um time is one yet distinct past present and future and all of those
52:3152:31 - things are time yet past is not present and present is not future and future is not past same thing with space length
52:3952:39 - breadth and height all of those things are dimensions within space but length is not breadth and breadth is not height
52:4552:45 - and height is not length and also with matter itself so this one I don’t know again physics if you recall in your
52:5452:54 - heads you know there’s an a very famous equation from Einstein e equals mc² right um You might remember this um so
53:0253:02 - energy and matter are related to each other in terms of the physical universe and the well I misspelled that word
53:0953:09 - there that should be phenomena not phenomia that’s that’s not a word phenomena um so matter is one yet
53:1753:17 - distinct energy matter and phenomena and energy is not matter matter is not phenomena phenomena is not energy
53:2253:22 - there’s three things right all of these examp here they get at this sense that the
53:2953:29 - father and the son and the spirit are all God but yet they’re not each other but just like we talked about before
53:3653:36 - with nature the problem is is that none of these things are personal they’re not individuals like it’s not like time
53:4353:43 - space and matter have Personalities in the same way that the members of the Trinity do they don’t have Personalities
53:5053:50 - in the sense that we humans have personalities but they have a will they are person
53:5653:56 - um and so that’s where these analogies kind of fall down just like the past on we’ve talked about a you have anything
54:0354:03 - you want to contribute uh in this discussion here okay um not not much really I think you have covered the
54:1054:10 - grounds like we’ve said before that all illustrations that we make about the Trinity are necessarily going to be
54:1954:19 - flowed they’re all illustrations they cannot be anything other than illustrations so in some way they will
54:2654:26 - give some insight into how the Trinity works but um beyond that we might we will find that those illustrations like
54:3454:34 - every other analogy will break down so that is um what we need to know but like like we said they’re very useful to
54:4354:43 - understand some aspect or other of the Trinity I don’t think there is much more to say or do regarding um how the whole
54:5354:53 - thing works but you have covered it pretty nice all right so before we get back to
55:0255:02 - the outline to kind of go over all that we’ve talked about we’re just going to close out kind of uh ending where we
55:0855:08 - started talking about the basically some of the caveats to bear in mind when we are discussing these illustrations for
55:1555:15 - the Trinity and kind of the just the concept in general of coming up with these analogies to try to help us
55:2055:20 - understand so the most that can be said for the best of these illustrations is to the extent that they remind us of the
55:2755:27 - awesome wisdom and power of God in creating all of these things that we’re talking about um and we may often take
55:3355:33 - this for granted as we go through life uh you know just thinking about the enormity of the universe and the
55:3955:39 - magnificence of God’s creation you know we probably ought to ponder that a little bit more just generally speaking
55:4655:46 - however all of those things you know in as much as they may help us realize that God is going to be even greater than
55:5655:56 - what he has made you know that’s a positive thing they can help point us to him this is in fact very much what
56:0256:02 - natural Revelation generally is you know as talked about in Romans chapter 1 vers 18 and following or Psalm chapter 19 uh
56:1156:11 - we know God we know certain aspects about uh his character and his divinity through that which has been made um and
56:1956:19 - so in as much as these things point us to God and we know um you know we can refer things based upon that just
56:2656:26 - through the natural world and some of these created things you know we talked about nature here and uh just things
56:3256:32 - from the Physical Realm uh creation generally um well these things can be good in as much as they point us to God
56:4056:40 - as the Creator um and so um they may help us realize that God is going to be even bigger even more complex even more
56:4956:49 - wonderful than the things that he has created um and so if they help us accept what we already know to be true about
56:5556:55 - the Trinity and again as we have kind of hammered home time and again the doctrine of the Trinity is basically one
57:0357:03 - in essence three in person or three in person or one in essence whichever order you prefer those things together compose
57:0957:09 - the teaching of what we say we believe and so if these things help us grasp that or accept it more easily what we
57:1757:17 - know to be true from what the Bible tells us then okay that’s fine right basically this is best case right right
57:2557:25 - um and so we’re never going to completely grasp this you know we’ve been over this before too um even if it
57:3157:31 - seems too complex and wonderful for us to fully grasp as humans that’s a limitation of our flesh of our Earthly
57:3757:37 - perspective given that we are very finite beings in SpaceTime on the other side we will know more as we are known
57:4457:44 - the terminology the Bible uses but nonetheless right now we have this very limited perspective that we are going to
57:5057:50 - be kind of stuck with until uh we join God and Jesus on the other side and all of our brothers and sisters who’ve gone
57:5957:59 - before us um however and again that was best case scenario however uh you can run into problems here as well we have
58:0758:07 - to take care that none of these illustrations are taken too far we have kind of been over this before uh when
58:1358:13 - you think about the interpretation of Parables so you have the parable of the wheat and the tears well we are not
58:1958:19 - actually literally wheat you cannot take certain physical properties of wheat and start making suppositions and hypoth
58:2558:25 - based on them um and that’s sort of the same thing here um and the idea is basically if we go beyond what is
58:3358:33 - written uh we can be led to dangerous and extra biblical rationalization based upon analogies we cannot reason about
58:4158:41 - the nature of God based upon characteristics of eggs you know just to go back to the nature example God is not
58:4858:48 - an egg right in as much as we use the egg to try to explain how there are these three parts any one of which if
58:5458:54 - you take it away is no longer an egg you know if we try to use that to help us understand the Trinity maybe you know
59:0159:01 - like we said best case maybe it helps us appreciate the complexity and the Majesty of God but you can’t you know go
59:0759:07 - start trying to put God in a box based on characteristics of eggs that’s kind of what we’re getting at here um and The
59:1459:14 - Trinity here um this is kind of taking a step back into the wider context the Trinity is very often a good litmus test
59:2159:21 - for our Christian faith um because to AC the Trinity you have to accept not only the existence of God but also the
59:2959:29 - distinctiveness and Divinity of Jesus Christ that is he’s a different person than the father but he is also God and
59:3559:35 - that’s kind of the true Touchstone principle that divides us as Believers from unbelievers that Jesus uh fully God
59:4259:42 - yet fully man came down into the world um paid for our sins upon the cross that we might have redemption and forgiveness
59:4959:49 - through his blood you know that’s the essence of the Gospel message and so this is why Satan spends so many
59:5659:56 - resources attacking this Doctrine in particular is because by distorting our understanding of the Trinity the devil
01:00:0301:00:03 - ultimately seeks to destroy our faith in Jesus Christ uh you know specifically we would say who he is the who he is part
01:00:0901:00:09 - of Jesus Christ but you know our entire understanding of redemption of how Jesus Paid for our sin it doesn’t work if he
01:00:1701:00:17 - wasn’t God and this is why this is so so so important for us as Christians because the Divinity of Jesus and how he
01:00:2401:00:24 - was God is God and yet he took on a human nature to become the perfect sacrifice for our sins it’s as
01:00:3101:00:31 - foundational as you get in Christianity basically and so that’s why Satan spends time attacking this um and again this is
01:00:4001:00:40 - just Why well you know by way of warning we are saying we have to be careful not to go beyond what is written not to push
01:00:4701:00:47 - analogies and and by the way these have going against them that most of these aren’t even biblical analogies they’re
01:00:5201:00:52 - just analogies people have come up with which you know in as much as they’re not even in the Bible they’re not even
01:00:5701:00:57 - inspired and we just have plenty of um danger in going too far with this that doesn’t mean that you will inherently
01:01:0501:01:05 - you know the second you look at one of these that I don’t know that you’re going to mess up your understanding the
01:01:0901:01:09 - Trinity it’s just we have to be really careful and one of the other reasons why we need to take such care is just
01:01:1501:01:15 - because of how critical and how important this Doctrine is generally for our faith and practice as Christians so
01:01:2101:01:21 - that’s kind of where we’re going to leave off here just all of this should help point us to you know okay so maybe
01:01:2701:01:27 - if some of these things aren’t the best way for us to understand so we we’ve talked about three persons one Essence
01:01:3401:01:34 - well what does that mean how does that work in how God interacts with creation it’s kind of where we’re going to turn
01:01:3901:01:39 - next but this was just an introduction to the fact that we can use certain phenomena in the Physical Realm to try
01:01:4701:01:47 - to help us wrap our heads around how this works and things like that and it’s not necessarily bad but we just really
01:01:5301:01:53 - need to be careful when when we do it so that we don’t get tripped up a you have anything else you want to share before
01:02:0001:02:00 - we close out this section of the study not really I don’t think there is uh much else to say it it does bear
01:02:0901:02:09 - repeating and emphasizing that um every every bit of the Bible is important and some parts of the Bible
01:02:1801:02:18 - are like you said foundational to our faith you don’t need to understand the mechanics of the Trinity to be saved but
01:02:2601:02:26 - if you don’t understand the Trinity and how it works there’s a chance that you have a
01:02:3301:02:33 - greater potential to have your faith threatened than if you did um because just as as
01:02:4201:02:42 - Stephen very aptly pointed out um the the the business of the Trinity the truth of the Trinity affirms The Who
01:02:5201:02:52 - part of what of of of the whole business of Jesus who is he and what did he do what did he do is what saved us but who
01:03:0201:03:02 - he is is what made what he did possible so if we if we don’t get the who part then that’s where we are weak that’s
01:03:0901:03:09 - where Satan is going to attack and we we have seen it has been a potent attack in the history of the church visible for a
01:03:1701:03:17 - long time so um getting it right is not an academic thing it’s not a hobby we don’t do it just for fun we do it in
01:03:2801:03:28 - order to make sure that there are no gaps in our faith in our understanding of the Lord there are no chinks in our
01:03:3501:03:35 - armor that’s why what what we do it for it’s not just an academic [Music]
01:03:4401:03:44 - endeav so that’s where we’re going to cut this section in the study here I just briefly going to go back over uh
01:03:5001:03:50 - the things we’ve talked about here in discussing illustrations for the trinity we opened up talking about uh how you
01:03:5701:03:57 - know there are some perils there’s some risks here especially if we’re not careful in keeping these things
01:04:0201:04:02 - contextualized you know making it very clear that you know this isn’t you know the formal teaching about God at best
01:04:0901:04:09 - these are just ways to help us better conceptualize him to put him in a human frame of reference so that maybe we can
01:04:1701:04:17 - wrap our heads about how three can be one and one can be three in terms of three persons one essence or one Essence
01:04:2301:04:23 - three persons um but we just have to be really careful when we do this that we don’t get lost in translation um and so
01:04:3001:04:30 - then after that we talked about uh the Trinity triangle this illustration that has been around since the very early
01:04:3601:04:36 - church and how really calling this an illustration is is maybe not quite the same as some of the other ones because
01:04:4201:04:42 - it’s just sort of a pictoral and image way to represent the doctrine of the Trinity which is that the father and the
01:04:4801:04:48 - son and the spirit are all God but the father is not the Son and the son is not the spirit and the spirit is is not the
01:04:5401:04:54 - father right um and you can see those relationships represented here in the triangle and so um that uh early
01:05:0101:05:01 - illustration we said you know if you keep it to the picture you know there’s nothing special about triangles for
01:05:0601:05:06 - example but you know it it can be helpful and just showing us in a visual representation of what the doctrine of
01:05:1301:05:13 - the Trinity is then we talked about the illustration of the family of man the illustration of the human mind
01:05:2001:05:20 - illustrations from the world of nature like that example of the egg and illustrations from the Physical Realm
01:05:2701:05:27 - like light the the you know the electromagnetic radiation the Spectrum there with different wavelengths but
01:05:3301:05:33 - they’re all light and space and time and matter and so on um all of these things can help kind of uh maybe help us get
01:05:4201:05:42 - some intuition for how can three things be one you know how can they all be the same yet different um in the same way
01:05:4901:05:49 - that um the three members of the Trinity are all God yet they are distinct persons that’s kind kind of where these
01:05:5501:05:55 - analogies these illustrations are trying to help us go um but again we kind of closed out here just saying that because
01:06:0001:06:00 - of how important this Doctrine is because none of these illustrations are really in the Bible either we just have
01:06:0601:06:06 - to be careful that we don’t take any of this too far that if we do any of this which um you know we’re kind of going to
01:06:1301:06:13 - argue in the next part of the study that the best way to actually understand the Trinity is to look at how the Trinity
01:06:1901:06:19 - operates in creation as uh recorded for us in the Bible That’s the best way for us to understand how this works in
01:06:2601:06:26 - practice uh probably more than trying to uh reason with these illustrations or analogies so that’s kind of where we’re
01:06:3301:06:33 - going to be turning now we are going to be turning to the roles of the Trinity as discussed in the Bible so there’s a a
01:06:3901:06:39 - future section that’s going to kind of hit more the Old Testament specifically we’re talk about the concept of
01:06:4401:06:44 - christophanies some but right now we’re just going to be introducing the roles in the Trinity generally speaking so
01:06:5001:06:50 - we’re going to be talking about the father and the son and the spirit and uh names for God as it’s involved in the
01:06:5601:06:56 - roles in the Trinity so that’s what the next lesson we’ll be going over
Roles of the Trinity in the Plan of God
Video
Summary
All three members of the Trinity are referred to by common names in both the Old and New Testaments: Elohim and YHVH (the so-called tetragrammaton) in the Hebrew Old testament, and Theos in the Greek New Testament. However, each member of the Trinity also has an individual name, based upon the role they play in God’s overarching plan to redeem mankind: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Aside from going over the shared names, this lesson also examines the origin, significance, and person of each of these individual names.
Timestamps
0:000:00 - Intro and outline
04:2504:25 - Roles of the Trinity in the Plan of God
13:4413:44 - General Introduction: The Roles of the Trinity Are a Biblical Way To Get Additional Perspective
16:0516:05 - The Names of the Trinity: Shared Names
29:0129:01 - The Names of the Trinity: Individual Names
35:2135:21 - The Father (the 1st Person of the Trinity)
49:2049:20 - The Son (the 2nd Person of the Trinity)
01:08:4701:08:47 - Discussion of subordination, not in person/essence, but in role
01:33:2301:33:23 - The Holy Spirit (the 3rd Person of the Trinity)
01:50:1301:50:13 - Note: Analogies Are Just Analogies, and Nothing More
02:02:5802:02:58 - Summary and outro
Content
(Derived from https://ichthys.com/1Theo.htm)
Roles of the Trinity in the Plan of God
A more valuable approach than the use of non-biblical illustrations to understand the nature of the Trinity is the examination of the function of the Trinity as described in the Bible. The scriptures have much to say about how God works in human history, and, specific to our topic, what roles the individual members of the Trinity play in that work, otherwise known as the “plan of God”.
General Introduction: The Roles of the Trinity Are a Biblical Way To Get Additional Perspective
God has not been operating in human history on an ad hoc or reactive basis, but has been “working everything together for good” (Rom.8:28) since the moment of creation. The Plan of God will be discussed as a topic in its own right in the part 2B of this series (Eschatology), but it will be helpful at this point to consider the unique roles played by the individual members of the Trinity in executing that plan in time, for by so doing, we shall gain biblical insight into the true nature of the Trinity.
No potentially-misleading illustrations necessary
The Names of the Trinity: Shared Names
Much can be understood about the Trinity through a consideration of the names by which they are revealed. Collectively, the Trinity refer to themselves as God. In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word for God, ‘Elohim (translated in the New Testament by the common Greek word for God, theos), is technically a plural of a word originally meaning “mighty one”; collectively then, the Trinity share this appellation, pluralized to express additional majesty.
Individually considered, however, members of the Trinity in the Old Testament are referred to most commonly by the Hebrew word Yahweh (translated in the New Testament by the common Greek word for Lord, kyrios), a word that, as we have seen, calls special attention to the Lord’s timeless and dynamic being (see section I, note 1). These two names, God and Lord, emphasize respectively the unity of the Trinity in its three-fold persons (‘Elohim is plural but refers to the Trinity collectively), and the joint divine-essence of all three individual members (Yahweh is singular but can be used to refer to any of the Trinity’s members individually).
The Names of the Trinity: Individual Names
With the fuller revelation of the Trinity in the New Testament following the revelation and advent of Jesus Christ (see Part II C. for the Trinity in the Old Testament), the names Father, Son and Holy Spirit give us an even clearer understanding of the roles of the Trinity (and therefore of the Trinity itself).
Cf. the general concept of so-called progressive revelation. This is an excellent example of the phenomenon.
The Father (the 1st Person of the Trinity)
Origin: The term for and idea of the Fatherhood of God, a designation well known from the New Testament, is also found in the Old Testament from the Pentateuch onward. The word Father is first used for God in Deuteronomy 32:6: “Is He not your Father? The One who bought you? He is the One who made you and established you.” Later in verse 18 of the same chapter, God is referred to as “the Rock who fathered you”. The concept of the fatherhood of God can also be seen at Exodus 4:22, where Israel is referred to as God’s “firstborn son”.
Significance: The use of the name “Father” is clearly intended to be taken as an analogy from human experience. Like the father who sired us, He is our creator. Like a father, He is our authority figure, our trainer, disciplinarian, and teacher (Heb.12:5-11). And, not to be underestimated, He is the One who cares for us and loves us deeply, who protects us, keeps us safe, and wants only what is truly best for us (regardless of what we see as best).
Being human, our earthly fathers had strengths and weaknesses, and despite their best intentions had to act on the basis of imperfect information about what was best for us. But our heavenly Father represents the perfect ideal of fatherhood. He acts toward us always in perfect love, and all He does for us is without question for our ultimate good, for whether He disciplines us or blesses us, He does so in perfect knowledge of who we are, and of all that is in our hearts.
Person: The Father is often referred to as the 1st person of the Trinity (i.e., the authoritative “I” person), because He speaks to us as “I”, directly manifesting His authoritative will as our God, creator and ruler of the universe (e.g., Ex.3:14-15; Is.46:9-10).
The Son (the 2nd Person of the Trinity)
Origin: Along with the holy angels (Job 38:7 [not NIV]), we believers are all “sons” of God (Rom.8:14; Gal.3:26; 4:5; cf. Jn.1:12; 1Jn.3:1-2). This widespread franchise of sonship is based upon the paternal position of the Father relative to all His obedient creatures, but there is only one “the Son of God (our Lord, Jesus Christ)”.
Though Christ’s incarnation was, in a veiled fashion, prophesied and foreshadowed by ritual and sacrifice, it remained in Old Testament times very much a mystery until the time of His actual first advent. Now it stands clearly revealed that the archetypical Son of God is our Lord Jesus Christ, and that the Old Testament parallels are types that look forward to this revelation. For example:
- Adam is the son of God (Lk.3:38) – Christ is the preeminent “last Adam” (1Cor.15:45; and cf. the “Son of Man [i.e., ‘adam]” of Dan.7:13-14 as well as New Testament usage)
- Israel is the servant of God (Is.42:18ff) – Christ is the suffering Servant who takes away the sins of the world (Is.42:1; 52:13 - 53:12)
- Israel is God’s son – Christ is the Son (Hos.11:1 fulfilled at Matt.2:15)
- Finally, though Solomon was David’s direct descendant, Christ is his ultimate descendant, the Messiah, the Son of David who is also the Son of God (Ps.2:7-12; 110:1).
Significance: Building on the idea of fatherhood as discussed above, sonship denotes the idea of a special and unbreakable relationship with the Father, one of dutiful subordination to the Father’s will, but also one of special privilege, inheritance and shared authority.
A son (especially a king’s son) is often more accessible than a father. The role of mediator between the king and His offending subjects can only be played by someone who is on a par with both the Father-king and creature-subjects: only a Son (incarnate) can be sent on such a mission of reconciliation (cf. Matt.21:33-40).
Person: The Son is often referred to as the 2nd person (i.e., the accessible “you” person), because He is accessible to us, having appeared in the flesh to forge a relationship with us on the Father’s behalf (e.g., Jn.15:14-15), and having gained access to the Father for us (Jn.14:6; Eph.2:18; 3:12).
The Holy Spirit (the 3rd Person of the Trinity)
Origin: From the first chapter of the Old Testament (Gen.1:2), to the closing chapter of the New Testament (Rev.22:17), the word “spirit” is used to refer to God the Holy Spirit. The Hebrew and Greek words for “spirit”, ruach and pneuma respectively, have the core meaning of “wind” or “breeze”, and, again, there are important points to be garnered from the name analogy.
Significance: The wind is a potent, invisible force. Though we perceive it and experience its effects, we can neither see where it has come from or where it is going to (Jn.3:8). It can have everything from a gentle, warming influence to a powerful, chilling effect. “Wind” is thus an aptly descriptive analogy for the Holy Spirit’s role in the plan of God: His invisible yet powerful support of good (Zech.4:6; 1Cor.12:3) and restraint of evil (Gen.6:3; 1Cor.12:3; 2Thes.2:5-8) in the furtherance of the plan of God must not be underestimated.
Person: The Holy Spirit is often referred to as the 3rd person of the Trinity (i.e., the unseen “he” person), because unlike the Father, He does not speak directly to us, and unlike the Son, He has not been made manifest to us; instead, like the wind, He is unseen by us, but, like the wind, that does not mean that we do not experience His power in a very personal and dynamic way (Jn.14:16-17; Gal.5:22-26).
Note: Analogies Are Just Analogies, and Nothing More
As should be clear from the discussion above, the names Father, Son, and Spirit are thus representative of the Trinity’s individual roles in the plan of God for mankind, and have been given to help us understand the relationships and functions of the three divine personalities in that plan.
The names themselves must not be pushed beyond the clearly intended analogies to our human frame of reference as outlined above. This is no small caveat, for it is largely on the basis of the title “Son” that heresies of the past have sought to deny the full and equal divinity of Christ (e.g., casting Him as subordinate in essence to the Father as hyper-Arianism does).
The case of the Spirit also shows how wrong-headed such analyses based solely on these titles are, for the Spirit is not at all “inanimate” or “impersonal” even though “wind” is a fitting description of His invisible yet powerful role in our Christian lives. He acts in a very personal way towards us and towards the other members of the Trinity (Jn.3:5; 14:16-17; 14:26; 15:26; 16:8-15; Acts 5:3, 5:9; 13:2; 16:6-10; Rom.8:26; 1Cor.2:10; Rev.2:7), and as our Comforter-Encourager (Jn.14:16; 16:7). The relationship of leadership (Rom.8:4; Gal.5:16 & 18), encouragement (cf. Jn.14:16; 16:7; 2Cor.1:3-7) and empowerment (Lk.24:49; Rom.15:13) we receive from the Holy Spirit are some of the most “personal” and “animating” relationships we shall ever experience this side of heaven.
Video/audio transcript
00:0000:00 - so the next section of this study in Bible basics part one theology that we are going to be looking at are the roles
00:0700:07 - in the trinity in the plan of God and so by in the plan of God we kind of mean in creation right in this Cosmos um and
00:1500:15 - this also counts sort of throughout all of creation so um you know this isn’t specifically the focus of the study of
00:2200:22 - theology proper there are other studies on ichus part 2B talks about eschatology in particular um but how God interacts
00:3100:31 - with human history helps us see how the members of the Trinity have adopted roles and so roles are sort of uh
00:3800:38 - properly speaking a property of creation um you know that is how the Bible describes them to us whether they exist
00:4400:44 - external to that we’re just not even going to go there because how the Bible discusses it is what the father and the
00:5000:50 - son and the spirit do uh for example in bringing about salvation in working in the world um and so we’re going to be
00:5700:57 - focusing on how the Bible talks about the father and the son and the spirit um as you know the roles in the Trinity so
01:0401:04 - we’re going to introduce just the idea generally of the roles of the trinity in the plan of God uh we’re going to be
01:1001:10 - talking about how uh the roles in the Trinity are a Biblical way to get additional perspective on the persons in
01:1601:16 - the Trinity right as kind of contrasted with some of the illustrations we just went through um the benefit we have here
01:2201:22 - is that the roles are most certainly taught in the Bible now these are analogies too to be clear right actually
01:2801:28 - a lot of heresy in the past has gotten real stuck on the sun part of the Trinity as in you know a a being that
01:3501:35 - was begotten sort of those sorts of problems um and they stumble there because this is an analogy it’s not
01:4301:43 - supposed to be literal um and so you know it’s sort of same caveats that we had before about you know illustrations
01:5001:50 - for illustrations the advantage that these have is that at least these are biblical at least we’re getting these
01:5501:55 - titles these names these analogies from scripture rather than I don’t know just coming up with them um so we’re going to
02:0202:02 - talk about just generally how this is a Biblical way to get more perspective on the members of the Trinity we’re going
02:0902:09 - to be talking about names next so um there’s uh a name Elohim you probably heard that word before um you know
02:1702:17 - plural of majesty Mighty ones you know this is basically the title for God in the Old Testament and then the Greek
02:2402:24 - word is Theos um probably heard that too that’s God you know that means god you know those Theo plurals like Gods is in
02:3302:33 - like the gods of the Greek pantheon but Theos is God proper in the New Testament and then we also have the personal name
02:4002:40 - of God the tetr grammaton which means four letters in Greek um that is sort of the Holy title of God this is who God
02:4802:48 - says he is in Exodus chapter 3 this is I am who I am says the Lord right this is the you’ll see this kind of printed in
02:5602:56 - small caps the tetragramaton um and you’ll see it liter commonly as Yahweh um or Jehovah um depending on who you
03:0403:04 - ask um but that is you know the personal title for God and interestingly that’s singular so we said Elohim is plural you
03:1203:12 - know what I I won’t go too much into this because we’ll get there when we get there in the slide but all of this is
03:1603:16 - talking about those are names for the Trinity specifically and then we’re going to get into the individual names
03:2103:21 - within the Trinity um for the father and the son and the spirit um and those names correspond to the roles within the
03:2803:28 - Trinity so the father is the first person of the Trinity the son is the second person and the Holy Spirit is the
03:3303:33 - third person kind of actually descriptive in the same way we have first person second person and third
03:3803:38 - person in verbs like as in I versus you versus he she or it um and after all of that uh kind of just how we had that
03:4703:47 - cautionary note at the end of our last uh section talking about illustrations we’re going to have similar cautionary
03:5403:54 - note here talking about how analogies are just analogies right um so the fact that we’re talking about a father and a
04:0004:00 - son does not actually mean that the father like sired the son in the way that we do as human you know Bloodlines
04:0704:07 - and whatnot um and very important to emphasize that because the analogies are just analogies um so we’ll beat that
04:1504:15 - horse when we get to the last slide there but this is generally speaking what we’re going to be talking about
04:2004:20 - here going over uh roles of the trinity in the plan of God all right so roles in the trinity in
04:3104:31 - the plan of God kind of the overarching thing we’re going to be talking about here is the use here of this
04:3904:39 - construction of examining the roles kind of as contrasted with non-biblical illustrations to help us understand the
04:4504:45 - nature of the Trinity um you know as it’s described in the Bible like actually described in the Bible versus
04:5104:51 - just things that we came up with so the scriptures have much to say about how God works in human history and specific
04:5604:56 - to our topic what roles the individual members of the Trinity play in that work otherwise known as the plan of God so um
05:0405:04 - I think earlier in this especially in talking about the Trinity we’ve kind of touched on this before about how all
05:1105:11 - three members of the Trinity were involved in creation for example all three members of the Trinity were
05:1705:17 - involved in uh redemption in the Jesus Christ paying for our sins you know we might think of Jesus Christ more
05:2405:24 - specifically but the spirit is the one who enabled it the father is the one who accepted the sacrifice on our behalf
05:2905:29 - things like that all three members of the Trinity are integrally part of the working out of the plan of God in
05:3705:37 - creation so that’s kind of the opening topic you know not a lot to it a you have anything you want to say um so the
05:4505:45 - the concern of um the Christian walk is uh entirely about the plan of God uh that’s
05:5505:55 - really all we are involved in um God is an objective that he’s looking to accomplish and there is a plan a
06:0306:03 - sequence so to speak of steps that will be taken to get there so this is yet another reason that um understanding the
06:1206:12 - Trinity is so important to us because it is an integral part of the business of spiritual growth because you’ll come to
06:2106:21 - see how the plan is unfolding um through the the various roles that the Trinity plays so um yes
06:3406:34 - the the roles of the Trinity are in the plan of God are a critical thing for us to understand and like you said uh this
06:4206:42 - is also where we come to see that analogies and illustrations will break down we won’t see that the father is the
06:4806:48 - father because he somehow generated the son at some point and that the spirit somehow was
06:5606:56 - generated either by the father or by the father and the son it it it it is it is um it is very
07:0607:06 - educative very telling to see that when we look at the Creeds of the past whether the nyine or the apostolic we
07:1407:14 - can see what happens when we miss the forest for the trees and when people focused so much on fighting the fight
07:2507:25 - for the Trinity that they couldn’t actually tell what they were looking look at and started talking about
07:3207:32 - eternal generation and proceeding from the father in all sorts of oblique ways so um for us for us
07:4207:42 - the the um the interesting thing about the Trinity is really in the fact that in
07:5007:50 - the unfolding plan of God the Father plays a specific role to realize that family that he had he wants in the end
07:5907:59 - the son also plays a specific role towards it and so does the spirit and each of these roles is actually what
08:0708:07 - they were named for which is why it is absurd in the extreme for someone to say for example God is spirit and therefore
08:1808:18 - the holy spirit is the is the spirit of the father who is kind of like the H the body the spirit is the animating force
08:2708:27 - of the father very crazy sorts of things that people come up with which is why they can also talk about the generation
08:3308:33 - of the son because he’s called the son now I will say that kind of what we’re saying here and this is important I
08:4008:40 - don’t want us to get too off in the weeds but they will tend to call these things as hypostatic properties that’s
08:4508:45 - the really jargony theological way that people who argue about these things will say that the father you know in what AUD
08:5308:53 - and I are saying and this is the correct way to look at it the father is called the father not because he was this way
09:0009:00 - and then we applied the label but because of the role that the father acts in creation that’s why he’s called the
09:0509:05 - father right um and the difference is between the roles in the Trinity it’s about what they do not you know so
09:1509:15 - because you know like people I’m sorry I’m not being very elegant here I have had conversations with people who are
09:2009:20 - Orthodox or Catholic who have different ideas about this shall we say and one of the characteristics of what they talk
09:2709:27 - about is that the father is such and such way or the sun is such and such way right that this is why they they are
09:3609:36 - like that and I’m saying no no no the members of the Trinity have adopted the roles in how they deal with us as humans
09:4309:43 - in creation those are different things um and so the names like you said follow the rules right that’s the order here
09:5009:50 - the names follow the rules so um but they are descriptive of how the members of the Trinity operate within the plan
09:5609:56 - of God Sor sorry to jump in but yeah that’s that’s fine the names are not ontologically what they are that’s the
10:0410:04 - point they are simply descriptive of the roles that they play so this is why the roles of the Trinity and the plan of God
10:1310:13 - is a very apt title for us who have chosen to grow spiritually and to um uh get to spiritual maturity and to be
10:2310:23 - productive for the Lord in the ways he wants us to be productive the most important thing is for us to understand
10:3010:30 - what the plan of God is what God is looking to accomplish and how he is setting out to accomplish it so that we
10:3510:35 - can see where we have any space to fit in and make our own contribution that is why when we talk about the Trinity as we
10:4510:45 - said before it’s not an academic thing it’s not something we just theologize about and we can talk with big heads
10:5210:52 - like we have a lot of education and we can use the jargons involved we are learning something that’s viscerally
11:0011:00 - important to our lives it matters in the decisions we make from day to day so that is why the roles of the trinity in
11:0911:09 - the plan of God is a thing that matters to us it also explains to us why one member of the Trinity is called the
11:1711:17 - father another is called the son another is called the spirit and we don’t get lost like those who do and names
11:2511:25 - themselves without actually understanding the point of the names that’s I mean and it’s it’s quite
11:3211:32 - Central to properly understanding the shall we say God’s interaction with creation if you don’t understand the
11:4211:42 - roles you don’t understand how the different members of the Trinity relate it’s just easier to get confused
11:4911:49 - generally speaking about say God’s attitude towards Humanity because how the father interacts with creation and
11:5611:56 - how the son interacts with creation they have chose CH to adopt these these different roles right now if we say that
12:0412:04 - God’s attitude towards humanity is shown in the son that’s true God’s attitude towards humanity is shown in the father
12:1112:11 - that’s true but you see how people who who don’t properly understand the idea of roles will suddenly get all lost and
12:1912:19 - confused because how the Son and the father relate to humanity aren’t the same um and neither one of them is any
12:2612:26 - less true right this is where the rubber hits the road about like maybe it sounds so simple right but people really get
12:3512:35 - lost in this and this is why it’s important for us to cover the roles what it means and how God can have this Unity
12:4112:41 - of purpose even as they each do their adop their roles um in terms of how they interact with creation right they can
12:5012:50 - have complete Unity of Will and yet not be doing exactly the same things right and right about here is where again we
12:5612:56 - say our human ability to comprehend this just does not work very well because you know so for example in human Endeavors
13:0313:03 - people who are you know doing if they’re like on the same page doing the same things that’s how we tend to think about
13:1013:10 - it right um people who have Unity of will are basically doing everything identically God the members of the
13:1813:18 - Trinity are doing not identical things they have adopted these roles yet they have perfect Unity of will how does that
13:2413:24 - work that is the Trinity right um yeah so um all right well we will get into more
13:3213:32 - of all of this but this is the general introduction here that the roles of the Trinity as adopted in the plan of God is
13:3813:38 - the overarching topic that we are setting out to discuss here in this section of the
13:4713:47 - lesson all right so uh the next thing that we’re going to be talking about here uh in discussing the roles of the
13:5413:54 - trinity in the plan of God is we’re just going to be kind of doing this uh taking a step back again to understand why
14:0214:02 - we’re talking about the roles kind of how it relates contrasting it with some of the illustrations we’ve just talked
14:0814:08 - about so uh when we talk about God and his plan for human history one of the ways in which God’s planning is
14:1514:15 - fundamentally different than ours as humans is he has perfect omniscience and perfect forward knowledge and so God
14:2014:20 - does not react to history he doesn’t react to events on an ad hoc or reactive basis he is not merely some big creature
14:2914:29 - is the Creator and sustainer of the universe that makes him fundamentally different and since the beginning of the
14:3514:35 - world even since before the very first Act of Creation God has been working everything together for good it’s what
14:4214:42 - Romans 8:28 tells us um the plan of God is kind of not the focus of the current study where we’re going through theology
14:4914:49 - proper it’s a topic in its own right um some of it’s covered in part 2B of this Bible basic series um 2A talks about
14:5714:57 - angels angelology part two is talking about eschatology um you know specifically the culmination of the plan
15:0415:04 - of God um but nonetheless we’re going to be considering how these unique roles played by the individual members of the
15:1115:11 - Trinity kind of are involved in executing the plan of God in time because when we do this we are going to
15:1815:18 - be gaining biblical insight into the true nature of the Trinity so this isn’t terribly different than what we said uh
15:2415:24 - just before um again we’re just emphasizing the point that what we’re talking about is actually in the Bible
15:3015:30 - that makes it different than some of the illustrations that people have had where it’s not so much focused on you know the
15:3715:37 - words of scripture as people just coming up with ways to try to think about it well this approach of trying to analyze
15:4415:44 - the roles of the Trinity uh as they contribute to the plan of God is actually coming straight out of
15:5015:50 - scripture so anything more to say there before we actually jump into talking about this
15:5615:56 - rather than just talking about talking about it I guess we we we we we’d best just jump
16:0316:03 - into it all right good deal all right so uh having gone through the last couple slides of introduction
16:1416:14 - here now we’re going to start talking about the roles in the Trinity but even before we get there to the individual
16:2016:20 - roles of father son and spirit we’re going to be talking about names for the Trinity generally and specifically
16:2616:26 - shared names here so much can be understood about the Trinity just by considering um the names through which
16:3416:34 - we are told you know like how God is described and named in the Bible so collectively the Trinity refer to
16:4116:41 - themselves as God you know this is one of the fundamental parts of you know the doctrine of the Trinity they are all God
16:4716:47 - they are one in essence they all have the essence of divinity the essence of God um in the Old Testament the Hebrew
16:5316:53 - word for God is Elohim and you’ll see this translated in the New Testament by the common Greek word for God fos like
17:0117:01 - I’ve said this can be used in a plural form for you know like the Greek gods of the pantheon they didn’t make a new word
17:0817:08 - for God they just use that word but understand it with a definite article it is the god of you know Israel rather
17:1617:16 - than Zeus for example um and so this word Elohim Theos in Greek um Elohim in Hebrew is actually a plural word you can
17:2517:25 - see that by the E ending if you’ve ever studied Hebrew um so this is technically a plural of a word originally meaning
17:3217:32 - mighty one um so collectively then the Trinity share this appalation and you’ll see this in scholarship often called a
17:4017:40 - plural of majesty um so Elohim is plural and of course we see this with the context of the New Testament as being an
17:4917:49 - oblique reference to the Trinity but also you know plural as a form of majesty um now individually considered
17:5817:58 - not considering you know the Trinity as a whole but individually members of the trinity in the Old Testament are
18:0318:03 - referred to most commonly by the Hebrew word Yahweh so again this is the tetragramaton um and you’ll see this
18:1318:13 - transliterated in the New Testament uh by the common Greek word for Lord which is Kudos um and this is a word that
18:2018:20 - calls special attention to the Lord’s Timeless and dynamic being so there’s a footnote in the study not going to
18:2518:25 - actually go click on that but um the the root I mean Scholars debate it is relating to the the basically being the
18:3318:33 - idea is existence is tied up in the very name of God and so these two names God and Lord emphasize respectively the
18:4118:41 - unity of the trinity in its three-fold persons that’s the Elohim being plural but refers to the Trinity collectively
18:4818:48 - as well as the joint Divine Essence you know Essence again actually coming from the Latin verb to be you know essay um
18:5718:57 - The Joint Divine Essence of all three members comes from uh the tetr Graton Yahweh right that Hebrew
19:0419:04 - word um the the the four letters there that get us this idea of God being existence he is The Great I Am um so
19:1319:13 - Yahweh is singular but can be used to refer to any of the Trinity’s members individually so this is talking about
19:2019:20 - the Trinity writ large you know this is you know not the specific roles that each of the members adopt but this
19:2619:26 - applies to all of the members um and so this is very much talking about the shared attributes of the Trinity so
19:3319:33 - three persons one Essence right all of them are God Elohim all of them you know have the
19:4119:41 - essence of divinity so each one of them individually can be called by the tetragramaton you know that we might
19:4719:47 - transliterate is Yahweh all of them are wrapped up in that Eternal existence that you know I am who I am that applies
19:5519:55 - to each member of the Trinity you have anything to add here um yeah um I’m going to raise uh two
20:0520:05 - passages let me make sure I haven’t forgotten the second one again um the first one is in Zechariah 2 I’ve
20:1320:13 - mentioned it before in these conversations as well the second one is uh Hebrews chapter 2 Hebrews chapter 1
20:2620:26 - and I believe it was quoting probably um a Psalm it was it was quoting a Psalm but I don’t remember the psalm so
20:3520:35 - Hebrews 2 one will do so in Zechariah 2 I I think it might have been verse 9 or verse 8
20:4420:44 - um yes it’s uh verse 8 for thus says the Lord of hosts he has he sent
20:5620:56 - me after Glory glory to the Nations which plunder you this is um nkjv for He Who touches you touches the
21:0621:06 - apple of his eye for surely I will shake my hand against them and they shall become spoiled for their servants then
21:1421:14 - you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent me the speaker is the Lord of hosts the sender is the Lord of
21:2221:22 - hosts um then in Hebrews uh I believe it’s Hebrews chapter 1 like I
21:3121:31 - said not two Hebrews chapter 1 it says there as well the speaker
21:3921:39 - here let’s let’s begin from verse five I’m not going to read the whole thing I just want to to point
21:4921:49 - out who the speaker here is and I I believe we can start from verse one God who at various times and in various ways
21:5521:55 - spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets then this is still the subject the
22:0222:02 - subject of the long run on sentence that follows in verse 5 it says for to which of the Angels did he this same God ever
22:1122:11 - say such and such and in verse 8 it says but to the son this God says your throne oh God is
22:2322:23 - forever and ever a scepter of righteousness is a scepter of your kingdom you you have loved righteousness
22:2922:29 - and hated lawlessness therefore God your God has anointed you with the oil of gladness more than your companions and
22:3822:38 - in verse 10 this is a very interesting one you Lord this is still God the one we call the father speaking to the son
22:4922:49 - you Lord in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the work of your
22:5522:55 - hands they will perish but you remain and they will all grow old like a garments like a cloak you will fold them
23:0423:04 - up and they will be changed but you are the same and your ears will not fail now these are words that you would expect
23:1323:13 - someone who is Raising praise to the Lord who is worshiping God would say in other words this is the proper way to
23:2123:21 - address God recognizing his place relative to creation and this is the father speaking to the
23:3223:32 - son that in itself I think is pretty conclusive about the the fact
23:4423:44 - that these are equals the son speaks this way to the father there should be no question about it all we have to do
23:5123:51 - is just read the gospels all the prayers that Jesus made all the things he said about the father they are all they are
23:5823:58 - similar what Jesus said about the father we are seeing the father say about Jesus so that is to tell us we’re not talking
24:0724:07 - about people who have any sort of hierarchy between them if we if we would say that for any reason there is we we
24:1624:16 - can say that there is um subservience there is uh there is a sort of a bringing down of the son relative
24:2624:26 - to the father now what do we say when we see this passage we know that the passage that we read in Zechariah 2 was
24:3724:37 - the son speaking we should know that it should be obvious to us because of the role that Jesus played he was the one
24:4324:43 - who was sent by the father to die for our sins the Bible says just as much and what was being said in Zechariah 2 was
24:5224:52 - about the Redemption of Israel which we know from the scriptures is going to be accomplished by the son and yet the
24:5924:59 - speaker was the Lord of hosts in other translations you’ll get you will see the Lord God
25:0525:05 - and the person who is sending the speaker is also the Lord of hosts or as in other translations the Lord God so we
25:1625:16 - might want to get U try to make sense of how this sort of thing is working out but before we get making sense of how it
25:2725:27 - is working working out it it really is sufficient in itself to say these two are the Lord God these two are God and
25:3725:37 - these two address each other with all the respect that is due to God that is very significant in itself it should
25:4525:45 - tell us that then when we apply father as title to one and Son as title to another which is what the Bible says yes
25:5525:55 - we can recognize that because of these titles one is taking a place of authority and another is taking the
26:0326:03 - place of a servant fact if I have a son in my house right now what I have is a daughter if I have a son I expect him to
26:1226:12 - listen to me and do what I say so it makes sense to think of these titles as speaking to their relative authority to
26:2226:22 - each other but we should also not miss the point that when the scriptures address these people in their
26:3026:30 - deity it’s almost as if the titles don’t mean anything they do we should not this the important thing is to hold one on
26:3926:39 - the on on the one hand and hold the other on the other hand recognizing that both things are true at the same time
26:4626:46 - that is pretty much what we are talking about here now to pull us back to the names real quick shows up
26:5526:55 - great example here in the Hebrews passage to the son father speaking he says your throne oh God I am guessing
27:0127:01 - this is vocative but you know that’s a particular case in Greek but I am guessing this this word right here
27:0627:06 - that’s Theos right God yeah and down here verse 10 Lord this is kuros It’s both words we just said right this is
27:1627:16 - the father speaking to the son calls him God and calls him Lord right and yeah you know like the son is God and the
27:2527:25 - father is God and the spirit is God but they all go by you know Lord you know like we see God Almighty Lord of hosts
27:3327:33 - here in Zechariah right um yeah we are talking about these names right here these are shared names of the Trinity
27:4227:42 - right um so you know these are great you know passages referencing some of what we’re talking about um also as we get
27:5127:51 - more into the roles of the father and the son we we’ll talk a bit more about you know the the way in which they
27:5827:58 - relate to each other you know AI has gotten into some of this but the point is and um as this ties back to what
28:0528:05 - we’re talking about you see that both the father and the son or God both the father and the son have all of the
28:1528:15 - aspects of the Divine Essence that we talked about previously you know when we were talking about the nature and
28:2028:20 - essence of God we we said all of these things all these essential so-called essential characteristics of God apply
28:2528:25 - to both the father and the son because they’re both God they both share the same Essence um how can you have
28:3428:34 - inferiority or disparity in status that was one of the things we talked about there can be no inferiority or disparity
28:4128:41 - in status because they share the same essence you know they share the same qualities of divinity um so that’s why I
28:5128:51 - talking about the names are important specifically the fact that these are shared names in the Trinity um
29:0429:04 - yes so now that we’ve talked some about the shared names of the Trinity here so we talked about Elohim translated as
29:1129:11 - Theos in the Greek and Yahweh tetr Graton translated is curios in the Greek well now we’re going to be talking about
29:2129:21 - the individual names for the roles in the Trinity here and so asec this puts it with the Fuller revelation of the
29:2829:28 - Trinity in the New Testament following the Revelation and the Advent of Jesus Christ um so for the Old Testament we’re
29:3429:34 - actually going to be talking about the trinity in the Old Testament separately um but in the New Testament the names
29:4029:40 - Father Son and Holy Spirit um and and these apply to individual members of the Trinity rather than all three of them
29:4629:46 - together well these names these roles give us an even clearer understanding of the roles of the Trinity and therefore
29:5329:53 - the Trinity itself how can we have three members who are not the same person yet have unified will well they work out the
30:0130:01 - same purpose again why we’ve been emphasizing the plan of God they have the same unified purpose yet they do
30:0830:08 - different things um so I I added this note this is actually not part of the study here I said that this is an
30:1530:15 - excellent example of so-called progressive revelation that is it’s not like God was ever not composed of three
30:2330:23 - persons one Essence right this has always been God’s nature God has always been a
30:2830:28 - however how clearly he revealed that to mankind has not been the same across all of human history you know especially
30:3630:36 - with the revealing of Jesus Christ um that is very strong language I think honestly we ought to use that sort of
30:4230:42 - language more often uh the revealing of Jesus Christ was a Divine mystery um with the Advent of Jesus Christ suddenly
30:5130:51 - all of these things that the Old Testament Believers only had in Shadows or prophecy or you know like maybe they
30:5730:57 - were they were kind of guessing at now we have all of that as history as things that we know and believe have happened
31:0531:05 - it’s different hence progressive revelation right um and this is you know this is no strange teaching that we’re
31:1231:12 - getting at here again theologians love to put ter like to to attach labels to things but all we’re talking about is
31:1831:18 - the fact that God’s truth um you know now it’s it’s more sealed because we have the complete Canon of scripture but
31:2631:26 - throughout the working out of the Plan of Redemption you know culminating in the cross in the ministry of Jesus
31:3131:31 - Christ what God had revealed to even Believers you know even people like Abraham and David they didn’t have the
31:3831:38 - full picture and it was revealed progressively over time um and what we’re going to be talking about with the
31:4531:45 - father and the son and the spirit you know there is no contradiction in what I’m saying that just because some of the
31:5231:52 - Believers in the Old Testament didn’t have as clear a view of this doesn’t mean that the MERS of the Trinity like
31:5931:59 - only in the New Testament adopted the roles of father son and spirit you see what I’m saying um like that would be a
32:0632:06 - different thing um so those those rules those roles have always existed even though the knowledge
32:1532:15 - of them and the understanding of them has only been Progressive we haven’t always known about them in in human
32:2332:23 - history just like you said but they have always been there yep I mean it’s also a lot of the discoveries that have been
32:2932:29 - made in science right we don’t say that just because Newton um started talking about gravity gravity only started to
32:3832:38 - exist at that time right you know yeah well I gu say this is not a it’s not a controversial concept here it is just
32:4932:49 - it’s important for us to understand that this is the nature and this by the way this isn’t only dealing with this
32:5532:55 - particular Doctrine in the Bible Progressive Revelations and important topic when it comes to understanding um
33:0233:02 - how God has revealed all truth to us you know not just I mean Jesus Christ like I said the revelation of Jesus Christ we
33:0833:08 - ought to speak about that more because of how big a mystery it was to the people of the Old Testament right
33:1333:13 - stumbling over the suffering servant because they wanted the Conquering king um the mystery of Jesus Christ was a
33:2133:21 - very big deal um but the Trinity is another one of those things where we are blessed to have the ability to read more
33:3033:30 - specifics about how this works with uh God’s nature and how how do the members of the Trinity interact with uh the plan
33:3933:39 - of God for human history and creation and all of this that’s just information that some Believers in the past didn’t
33:4533:45 - have any access to and we’re blessed to have the words of the Bible that mind you it takes a lot of of elbow grease
33:5333:53 - and hard work to you know read and understand and apply and things like that but we have the ability to do that
34:0034:00 - because God has revealed more truth in that Progressive Way yeah yeah yeah very true very
34:1034:10 - true um all right so with that we will pick up next talking about each of the individual roles so the father and the
34:1934:19 - son and the spirit and um each one of those not we’re going to get into it we’re going to be talking about the
34:2534:25 - origin and the significance and the person that’s how we’re going to be breaking down all of that but what we’ve
34:3334:33 - done here is introduce the topic here of these individual names right these these things that kind of were not always so
34:3934:39 - apparent but have always been there even if humans didn’t have title for it like Audie said gravity existed even before
34:4734:47 - Newton started talking about it in the same way the Trinity has always existed in this form even if we didn’t see as
34:5434:54 - clearly because God had not yet revealed the fullness of his truth so that’s where we’re going to uh kind of preface
35:0335:03 - all of our next discussion here of these kind of just by talking about the fact that these roles have always been there
35:0935:09 - right the things that we’re talking about have been there from the beginning in the Bible um although much of what
35:1435:14 - we’re going to talk about is going to be pulling primarily from the New Testament right that’s where we have the more
35:1935:19 - specific Revelation so now we are going to be talking about the names for the three
35:2935:29 - roles in the Trinity going through each one uh kind of in depth here and for each of these roles we are going to be
35:3735:37 - talking sort of about the origin of the name so where it comes from the significance of the name uh so sort of
35:4435:44 - what it means in terms of how we view it and then uh the person of the Trinity corresponding to the name right how it
35:5235:52 - uh kind of affects how we think of that member of the Trinity um so we’re going to be talking about uh these three sort
35:5835:58 - of as a pattern as we go through the three roles three members of the Trinity we’re going to be going over the origin
36:0436:04 - the significance and the person for the father first that’s what we’re doing here and then we’re going to do the same
36:1036:10 - thing for the Son and the same thing for the spirit and so um as we start out talking about the origin of the name
36:1936:19 - father or the thinking of the role in terms of fatherhood so the term for and the idea of the fatherhood of god um so
36:2836:28 - this person this member of the Trinity the father in as much as God functions as a father figure for us um this is
36:3736:37 - obviously all over the place in the New Testament um but it’s actually found in the Old Testament as well and so this
36:4336:43 - idea of the fatherhood of God has been there since the beginning in the pentat the first five books of the Bible onward
36:5036:50 - um so the word father in the Hebrew Old Testament is first used in Deuteronomy chapter 32 um so Deuteronomy 32 verse
36:5736:57 - six says do you thus repay the Lord oh foolish and unwise people is not he your father who has bought you he has made
37:0637:06 - you and established you um and then in the next verse there so that was um 32 ver6 later in verse 18 in that same
37:1437:14 - chapter God is referred to as the rock who fathered you um so the concept of the fatherhood of God um you can also
37:2237:22 - see it here in um Exodus um so uh in Exodus chapter
37:2937:29 - 4:22 um we have this idea of God As the father I mean we don’t see the the word father directly there but it’s by
37:3537:35 - implication um so Exodus 4:22 says then you shall say to Pharaoh thus says the Lord Israel is my son my firstborn so if
37:4637:46 - Israel is his son that makes him the father right um um in the metaphor here and so um Israel is referred to as God’s
37:5437:54 - firstborn son and in invoking uh this idea of fatherhood um in fact uh we should be careful to note
38:0338:03 - that human fathers they get their um their idea of authority and uh uh you know when they run their households and
38:1438:14 - they are the one who makes decisions and has um sort of the capacity to choose and yet the responsibility falls upon
38:2338:23 - them all of that is modeled off of God the Father not the other way around right um so it’s not like God the father
38:3038:30 - created humans and then based on the structure of the Human family decided that he was going to follow that same
38:3638:36 - structure right that is and this is very typical of typology um within how typology comes up in biblical
38:4538:45 - interpretation is God is what we would call the real version of something and then we see the patterns that come from
38:5438:54 - um God or the spiritual how he’s organized the church manifest in the physical world or in human
39:0139:01 - relationships in a way that mirrors the spiritual but the spiritual didn’t copy from the human the human copied from the
39:0739:07 - spiritual that’s sort of the order of the typology here um so this is where the idea of the fatherhood of God comes
39:1539:15 - from now of course we only picked a couple passages here um these are not the only passages in the Old Testament
39:2139:21 - they get at this idea um you know this comes up in uh the Psalms this comes up in you know the gospels all over the
39:2939:29 - place you know Jesus obviously in his kosis as the Incarnation of you know praise to God the Father you know and
39:3739:37 - this is how we are told to pray in the Lord’s Prayer as well um you know Our Father who art in heaven Hallowed be thy
39:4339:43 - name right um so it obviously a critical part of kind of understanding our relationship to the member of the
39:5239:52 - godhead as Audi has articulated before that is the the representation of deity within the Trinity um the one who
40:0040:00 - carries the authority um and this is how the roles have been adopted as we’ll go through more as we go here but this is
40:0740:07 - kind of where we get it from in scripture and so that’s the origin of the name uh the name of the role being
40:1440:14 - father and this idea of fatherhood well what is the significance of this so when we talk about the fatherhood of God this
40:2240:22 - is clearly intended to be taken as an analogy from Human Experience um and so uh we’ve talked elsewhere um you
40:3140:31 - know and ikis certainly does as well about this idea of anthropopathism that sometimes we
40:3840:38 - ascribe emotions to God um to help us better understand him so the wine press of God’s Wrath anger ascribed to God um
40:4740:47 - uh a as as you know someone holding the sword of judgment against Injustice in the world or evil in the world so that’s
40:5440:54 - an anthropopathism this is somewhat anthrop morphic of God as well in that you know
41:0041:00 - God is our father not so much that we are baby Gods you know in the sense that that animals have you know young that
41:0941:09 - are of a kind with them God is our father in this metaphorical sense um and you know in every positive way that our
41:1841:18 - human fathers have that relationship with us God is that but better right and we’ll get into that a little bit more in
41:2541:25 - a second here so like the father who sired us physically so like our human fathers um God is uh the the one who
41:3341:33 - brought us into the world right um you know in fact in the more real sent as I say it’s kind of an intensification in
41:3941:39 - every way because our human fathers you know had a role in you know us coming into the world but they didn’t form our
41:4541:45 - human spirits that was God right um like a father so that is like a human father he’s our authority figure that’s the
41:5341:53 - role of men in marriage and the family right our trainer our discipline Arian and our teacher so this passage here in
42:0042:00 - Hebrews chap 12 um this is a a passage known for the discipline of God um so um I’m just going to read uh most of this
42:0942:09 - here Hebrews chap 12: 5 through1 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as Sons my son do not
42:1742:17 - regard lightly the discipline of the Lord nor faint when you are reproved by him For Those whom the Lord loves he
42:2342:23 - disciplines and he scores every son whom he receives it is for discipline that you endure God deals with you as with
42:3142:31 - sons for what son is there whom his father does not discipline but if you are without discipline of which all have
42:3842:38 - become partakers then you are illegitimate children and not Sons furthermore we had Earthly fathers to
42:4442:44 - discipline us and we respected them shall we not much rather be subject to the father of spirits and live for they
42:5042:50 - disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them but he disciplines us for our good so that we may share his
42:5642:56 - holy all discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful but sorrowful yet to those
43:0143:01 - who have been trained by it afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness so this passage talking
43:0943:09 - about God’s discipline of us and you can see the analogy in full swing here because we actually bring up how God’s
43:1543:15 - discipline is like the discipline of Earthly fathers except only for our good so that we may share his Holiness right
43:2343:23 - we we mentioned this intensification of fatherhood if you will um our human fathers even as good as they might be or
43:3043:30 - might have been they don’t have perfect information like God does um so it’s not only it’s not only the discipline um so
43:4143:41 - that is one side of the father’s responsibility in a household but he’s also the one in a family who’s supposed
43:4743:47 - to love and care for us who protects us keeps us safe wants only what’s best for us regardless of what we see as best I’m
43:5543:55 - also traditionally the provider in the household the one who is um kind of making sure that everyone in the
44:0144:01 - household has what they need um and is protected from um you know threats out external to the home um so that is human
44:0944:09 - fathers but Gods like that accept better in every way right and so this is the point that we may just kind of going
44:1544:15 - back to this uh being finite human beings our Earthly fathers had strength and weaknesses and despite their best
44:2244:22 - intentions um they had to act on the basis of imperfect information about what’s actually best for us so uh if
44:2944:29 - you’ve ever had a child who does something wrong especially since different children are different and
44:3344:33 - respond to discipline in different ways sometimes it can be really hard to figure out what you’re supposed to do to
44:3944:39 - kind of teach a child the lesson that they need to be taught right so maybe touching hot stoves is dangerous or uh
44:4744:47 - crossing the street without looking both ways is dangerous but how do you instill that into your child parenting is not
44:5244:52 - easy business right um but unlike finite human beings who you know even if they do their very best will never be perfect
45:0145:01 - Our Father in Heaven does not have these limitations he always knows what is best for us he always does what is best for
45:0945:09 - us you know even if we don’t like it even if we don’t see it at the time so in this way God represents the perfect
45:1645:16 - ideal of fatherhood he is not limited in the way that human beings are um so he acts towards us always in perfect love
45:2345:23 - and what he does for us is without question for our ultimate good and this we might think of Romans chapter 8:28
45:2945:29 - for all things work together for the good of those who love him um and that you know that is true generally speaking
45:3545:35 - of parents who want the best for their children that is ever so much more true for our father uh that we have in God
45:4245:42 - the god of the universe because he has the power to make it happen uh God’s will is always done and so no matter
45:4945:49 - what God does in relation to us whether he disciplines us or blesses us he does so in perfect knowledge of who we are
45:5545:55 - and of all that is in our Hearts um so he knows our minds and our intentions even before we act all right so that’s
46:0246:02 - the significance here of this idea of fatherhood the fatherhood of the role of father in the Trinity this is why we
46:1046:10 - call him God the father because this is the way in which he relates to us and so finally that brings us to the person so
46:1746:17 - the father um the member of the Trinity bearing this name um going through uh relating to Creation in this way in this
46:2646:26 - role is referred to as the first person of the Trinity and this is because he speaks in the authoritative first person
46:3346:33 - the I person he decrees things um he speaks as the representation of deity as Audi has put it um he speaks to us
46:4246:42 - directly he mandates things um and in this he’s directly manifesting his manifesting his authoritative will as
46:5046:50 - our God creator and the ruler of the Universe um so this passage before from Exodus 3 we have already talked about
46:5846:58 - this I think we actually almost opened the very first lesson of this study talking about this of God’s essence of
47:0447:04 - being you know the the one who is He Who exists I am who I am in this way we would say that this is representative of
47:1347:13 - the father’s decrees the father’s claims he’s speaking in the first person here um and so this is Exodus chapter 3 veres
47:2147:21 - 14- 15 um talking about I am has sent me to you right God uh stating for all time that we are to know him as the one who
47:3047:30 - is um you know and who was and who is to come and then we also have this passage here from Isaiah chapter 46 and this one
47:3947:39 - um is again God talking in the first person this is this idea of the role of the father being the one who gives
47:4847:48 - authoritative decrees so this is Isaiah chapter6 veres 9-10 so remember the former things long past for I am God and
47:5647:56 - there is no other I am God and there is no one like me declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times
48:0248:02 - things which have not been done saying my purpose will be established and I will accomplish all my good pleasure so
48:0948:09 - you see that this is God decreeing his his authoritative will creation will bow to his decrees and this is the authority
48:2048:20 - of this person in the Trinity and this is kind of why we associate um the father in The Trinity with the first
48:2648:26 - person um this is how God decrees things in creation so I know we’ve been through a lot here um and and we could certainly
48:3548:35 - flesh out um any that we’ve gone through Audi do you have places you want to start as we discuss the father as the
48:4148:41 - first person in the Trinity okay so I think you’ve uh essentially um covered it
48:5248:52 - uh it’s it’s it’s really the role of the father um the the the progenitor The Protector
49:0149:01 - the everything that um a father would be or should be to Creation so yeah I don’t think there
49:1049:10 - is much else that I would I can’t imagine anything I would that I would just reiterate a lot of the things that
49:1749:17 - you have said essentially yeah next we’re going to be talking
49:2549:25 - about the Sun as the second person of the Trinity so just how we talked about the origin of the name or title father
49:3449:34 - uh for um the member in the Trinity who bears that name uh we’re going to be talking about the same thing for the sun
49:4149:41 - here um so uh there’s this verse here in Job chapter 38 this is an interesting verse um actually gets into the idea of
49:4949:49 - recreation um the Angels actually being there as uh God was recreating the Universe um kind of poses a theological
49:5749:57 - issue for people who don’t hold to uh the Gap Theory or ruin reconstruction is that well how are angels existent before
50:0450:04 - the universe if you don’t believe what we believe um but you know that aside this verse talking about the sons of God
50:1150:11 - in Job chapter 38 are referring to Angels so angels are sons of God in the same way that humans are in that
50:1850:18 - important sense that God is our creator he’s our progenitor if you want to use that term um he’s the one who has
50:2650:26 - Authority over us who loves us who does the things in our best interest who disciplines us grows us now obviously
50:3250:32 - elect Angels they intellectual capacity how they work how their free will works it’s all a little bit different from
50:3950:39 - humans um but it’s the same idea generally speaking that they answer to God in the same way that we answer to
50:4650:46 - God uh you know God the Father um so they are sons of God um now we are also all referred to as sons of God so I’m
50:5450:54 - just going to read some references here most of these are not like hard references to follow so in Romans
50:5950:59 - chapter 8 um it says Romans 8 chapter chapter 8 ver14 says for all who are being led by the spirit of God these are
51:0751:07 - sons of God so that’s Believers right um Galatians chapter 3: 26 for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ
51:1551:15 - Jesus uh Galatians chapter 4:5 so that he might redeem those who were under the law that we might receive
51:2251:22 - the adoption as sons and then you can also compare John chap 1:2 but as many as received him to them
51:3051:30 - he gave the right to become children of God even to those who believe in his name and then 1 John chapter 3 uh uh
51:3851:38 - verses 1- two see how great a love the father has bestowed on us that we would be called children of God and such we
51:4551:45 - are for this reason the world does not know us because it did not know him um so I’m going have to go read the second
51:5251:52 - verse um beloved now we are children of God and it has not appeared as yet we will be we know that when he appears we
51:5851:58 - will be like him because we will see him just as he is so two mentions in 1 John chapter 3 veres 1- two of us being
52:0752:07 - children of God so angels are sons of God Believers are sons of God and so this widespread franchise of sunship
52:1752:17 - that’s how ikus has put this here this idea of sunship is based upon the paternal position of the father relative
52:2452:24 - to all of his obedient creatures however and this is where we’re going to Pivot to Jesus Christ there’s only one the Son
52:3252:32 - of God with the definite article and that’s our Lord Jesus Christ um so angels are sons of God believing humans
52:3952:39 - well actually believing angels are sons of God believing humans are sons of God but there’s only one the Son of God with
52:4452:44 - a definite article um so we’re goingon to take a step back here talk about the Incarnation relative to uh the
52:5252:52 - proceedings in the law so Christ incarnation in the Old Testament was in a veiled fashion prophecied and
52:5952:59 - foreshadowed by ritual and sacrifice so it remained in Old Testament times very much a mystery until the time of his
53:0653:06 - actual first Advent um so now with the benefit of hindsight we see how Jesus was revealed as the archetypical Son of
53:1553:15 - God um and that the Old Testament parallels are actually types that look forward to this Revelation and so if you
53:2153:21 - remember just before when we were talking about the father I I made this mention that anytime we have this this
53:2753:27 - sort of idea of typology it’s always the spiritual realities that are the real thing and the human analogies that are
53:3453:34 - the types the parallels um sort of Shadows makes it sound like bad it’s not bad um it’s just the human parallels
53:4353:43 - copied the Divine not the other way around right um and so we have quite the list here um and so again we’re kind of
53:5053:50 - determining where is this origin of the title of sun coming from where where we we getting this how is it manifested in
53:5853:58 - scripture um so we’re going to go through some Old Testament types here um some places where we see this idea of
54:0654:06 - sunship present so one really obvious one is Christ as the last Adam so Adam is called the Son of God we might
54:1554:15 - compare Luke Chapter 3: 38 um you know the son of enosh the son of Seth the son of Adam the Son of God so Adam is called
54:2354:23 - there the Son of God um Christ however is the preeminent last Adam so we have this verse here in 1 Corinthians chapter
54:3054:30 - 15 talking about how uh the first man Adam became a living Soul the last Adam referring to Christ became a lifegiving
54:3954:39 - spirit um if I’m not mistaken Romans chapter 5 talks about similar things as well um interestingly we actually have
54:4654:46 - this passage in Daniel chapter 7 as well talking about like a son of man um one like a son of man was coming so I’ll
54:5354:53 - read this this is Daniel chapter 7: 13 through 14 I kept looking in the night visions and behold with the cloud of
55:0155:01 - Heaven one like a son of man was coming and he came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him and to him
55:0855:08 - was given Dominion glory and a kingdom that all the peoples nations of men of every language might serve him his
55:1555:15 - Dominion is an everlasting Dominion which will not pass away and his kingdom is one which will not be destroyed so
55:2255:22 - one like a son of man right um so so this is Christ as the Fulfillment the last Adam um as well as other usage in
55:3155:31 - the New Testament um so Adam was a Son of God but Christ is the preeminent last Adam um now interestingly um Adam you
55:4055:40 - know that’s the name we use in English or Adam as the Hebrew word it means man literally um and so Jesus is the last
55:4955:49 - Adam um and so this is one of the types that points us to this idea of sunship um so another one um and this is where
55:5755:57 - we get into the idea of um sort of the subordination of the son to the father’s will um we talk about Israel as the
56:0656:06 - servant of God um so there’s this passage in the middle part of Isaiah chapter 42 um you know Isaiah
56:1356:13 - remonstrating with the Israelites here talking about um the Israelites as the servant of God um so this one’s a little
56:2056:20 - bit long I may not I may not read this whole passage but um it is conveying the sense here of the Israelites as being
56:3056:30 - the servant of the Lord um and so you know positionally Israel as we read before you know in Exodus 4:22 said to
56:3856:38 - be the Son of God right if Israel is the Son Well Israel is also the servant of God um but Christ is the suffering
56:4556:45 - servant who takes Away The Sins Of The World um and this will be uh kind of a familiar passage to many if we go uh
56:5356:53 - with the passage picking up in Exodus chapter 52 and going sorry not Exodus Isaiah chapter 52 going into 53 uh this
57:0057:00 - is the famous passage of the suffering servant right um you know very Messianic in nature um common for this to be read
57:0857:08 - uh during cor isort of the Christmas time as we Ponder how um it was that that the son came into the world you
57:1657:16 - know the Incarnation um but the suffering servant Christ as the suffering servant right Israel was the
57:2357:23 - servant of God that suffered but Christ is the suffering servant again you see the typology here in work um so I mean
57:3057:30 - this is powerful stuff I I love this passage but again kind of long not going to read the whole thing here um but this
57:3657:36 - is where we are getting the idea of sunship and specifically what it means for for the second person in the Trinity
57:4457:44 - to take on human flesh and become a servant right that context we get in part from this passage here in Isaiah
57:5157:51 - chapter 52 and 53 um so just as Israel is the servant of God Christ is the suffering servant who takes away the
57:5957:59 - sins of the world and then we also have just Israel’s God’s son generally speaking Christ is the Son of God right
58:0658:06 - so um interesting passage here in Hosea chapter 11 talks about when Israel was a youth I loved him and out of Egypt I
58:1358:13 - called my son um uh Matthew is actually pretty clear that um when Joseph uh took Mary and baby Jesus to Egypt to flee
58:2158:21 - herod’s persecution and then Egypt came back it’s actually the Fulfillment of this this was a prophecy um and we see
58:2758:27 - that in Matthew chapter 2:15 um he remained there I think the he here is Joseph probably in context he remained
58:3458:34 - there until the death of Herod that this was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet out of
58:4058:40 - Egypt I called my son um and again Jesus as the Son of God and then uh folks who are familiar with um sort of this
58:4958:49 - tracing the the so-called Messianic passages in the Old Testament will kind of be familiar with these um we have
58:5658:56 - Jesus as kind of the son of David right so David’s direct line the line of Savior has Solomon as his son but Christ
59:0659:06 - is the son of David right um and in this way we can see this in in Psalm 2 which is certainly a Messianic Psalm um so um
59:1659:16 - this is you know commonly comes up when we discuss the idea of the Incarnation and you know it’s not that the second
59:2359:23 - person in the Trinity is a created being um but we’re talking about Jesus’s human nature in his kosis um Psalm you know I
59:3159:31 - let me actually read this these verses um verses 7 through2 um so this is speaking of the Incarnation um Psalm 2
59:3959:39 - picking up at verse 7 I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord he said to me you are my son today I have begotten you
59:4659:46 - ask of me and I will surely give the Nations as your inheritance and the Very ends of the Earth is your possession you
59:5259:52 - shall break them with a rod of iron you shall shatter them like Earth and wear now therefore O King show discernment
59:5859:58 - take warning or oh judges of the earth Worship the Lord with reverence and rejoice with trembling do homage to the
01:00:0501:00:05 - son that he not become angry and you perish in the way for his wrath May soon be kindled how blessed are all who take
01:00:1201:00:12 - refuge in him um so again speaking of the Incarnation of the son here so that’s Psalm chapter 2 also Psalm
01:00:2101:00:21 - chapter 110 um speaking of the Lord says to my Lord s at my right hand until I make
01:00:2801:00:28 - your enemies as a foot stol for your feet so um if we look at Psalm 110 you know this is the idea of the Lord says
01:00:3801:00:38 - to my Lord you know not David but the Lord of David right this is Christ the Messianic Psalm speaking of Christ as
01:00:4701:00:47 - the descendant of David right the one who came after him yet was greater than him um so in all of these ways we see
01:00:5401:00:54 - that the like we we kind of see where sunship comes from in scripture um so Christ has all of these types in the Old
01:01:0201:01:02 - Testament these things that point to him um and this isn’t to say that Christ is like Bound by the typology right Christ
01:01:0901:01:09 - is the Son of God he fulfills um as the perfect archetype everything that Adam and Israel and even Solomon as David’s
01:01:1901:01:19 - son he fulfilled everything that they kind of were supposed to to a higher standard and intensification if you will
01:01:2601:01:26 - um so that’s the origin of the sun here and when when we talk about the significance of it this is where we sort
01:01:3201:01:32 - of get into U the somewhat um difficult to wrap our heads around topic of the subordination of the son to the father’s
01:01:4101:01:41 - authoritative will particularly during the Incarnation under kenosis when Jesus was emptied out of his divinity um fully
01:01:5001:01:50 - God yet fully man but not taking advantage of his divinity during the Incarnation um so with that kind of
01:01:5701:01:57 - backdrop here um sunship takes on this idea of submission of obeying the will of God the Father um so building on the
01:02:0601:02:06 - idea of fatherhood as discussed before with God the Father sunship denotes the idea of a special and unbreakable
01:02:1301:02:13 - relationship with the father and you can see this um as Jesus you know throughout the gospels talks about the father’s
01:02:2101:02:21 - will as one who knows the father’s will right he is unmistakably the son of God who speaks for the father um but there’s
01:02:2901:02:29 - also dutiful subordination to the father’s will but at the same time that he submitting he also has privilege
01:02:3501:02:35 - inheritance and shared Authority um now if we take a step back for a second this is actually really helpful for helping
01:02:4201:02:42 - us understand what it means for the son to be subordinate to the father yet not necessarily unequal with the father um
01:02:5001:02:50 - Dr lugan B uses an example of the King’s son uh we might think specifically the term might be Crown Prince right the one
01:02:5801:02:58 - who is to be the next ruler um well in you know an absolute monarchy or an an Empire with an emperor and that sort of
01:03:0601:03:06 - thing um typically the people who sit on the throne are sort of unapproachable um you know you don’t have access to them
01:03:1201:03:12 - they cannot hear the plights of normal people they’re kind of Out Of Reach I mean if we take that idea and we map
01:03:1901:03:19 - this on to the father and the son again human analogies only being the Shadows or the reflections of the Divine ones
01:03:2701:03:27 - well in the same way here um the Crown Prince or the King’s son might play the role of a mediator between the king and
01:03:3601:03:36 - his offending subjects and that role can only be played by someone who is on a par with both the father King and with
01:03:4501:03:45 - the subjects and so for Jesus Christ for us plays this role he has a human nature he is one of us the Bible says that he
01:03:5301:03:53 - understands because he lived a human being but he has equality with with God it also says that equality with God is
01:04:0201:04:02 - not something that he has to reach for he’s had it since eternity passed this is the role of the son he is the one who
01:04:1001:04:10 - is accessible to us the one whom we can uh tell our not not our complaints who who advocates for us who is a listening
01:04:1801:04:18 - ear the one who we talk to who then appeals on our behalf to the father as only the Crown Prince can as only the
01:04:2701:04:27 - King’s son can and only a son the Incarnation of the son the Incarnation of the one subordinating himself to the
01:04:3601:04:36 - father’s will he is the only such person who could be sent on the mission of reconciliation um so we have this
01:04:4301:04:43 - passage here in Matthew chapter 21 um and I’m going to read through this this is very very on point for sort of the
01:04:5301:04:53 - role of the son in Rec ilation God’s plan to make peace with mankind yet what mankind does in response so this is the
01:05:0301:05:03 - parable of the landowner so picking up it Matthew chap 1: 33 listen to another Parable there was a landowner who
01:05:1101:05:11 - planted a Vineyard and put a wall around it and dug a wine press in it and built a tower and rented it out to vine
01:05:1701:05:17 - Growers and went on a journey when the Harvest Time approached he sent his slaves to the vine Growers to receive
01:05:2201:05:22 - his produce the vine Growers took his slaves and beat one and killed another and stoned a third again he sent another
01:05:2901:05:29 - group of slaves larger than the first and they did the same thing to them but afterward he sent his son to them saying
01:05:3601:05:36 - they will respect my son but when the vine grower saw the son they said among themselves this is the heir come let us
01:05:4301:05:43 - kill him and seize his inheritance they took him and they threw him out of the vineyard and they killed him therefore
01:05:5001:05:50 - when the owner of the Vineyard comes what will he do to those fine Growers you know and Jesus is speaking this
01:05:5601:05:56 - against the Pharisees of course but the point for us in talking about the role of the sun is you see how the role of
01:06:0301:06:03 - the son is different than the groups of servants that came before the son carries the authority of the father of
01:06:1101:06:11 - the land owner here he is the heir he is the Crown Prince the one whom these people ought to respect because he is
01:06:1901:06:19 - playing the role of mediator between them and the landowner but they don’t respect him so this is the role of the
01:06:2501:06:25 - son in reconciliation for us um and so we will perhaps talk more about this as we try to Grapple with this idea of uh
01:06:3501:06:35 - the subordination of the Incarnate son to the father’s will and things like that but the son’s role of mediation of
01:06:4101:06:41 - reconciliation is only possible because he’s fully God and fully man and that brings us to the person of the son and
01:06:5001:06:50 - what makes us refer to the son in the second person is the fact that he is accessible to us we can speak to him as
01:07:0001:07:00 - someone who took on a human nature who appeared in the flesh to forge a relationship with us on the father’s
01:07:0601:07:06 - behalf as the mediator between us and unapproachable deity and so passage here in uh John chapter 15: 14-15 Jesus
01:07:1701:07:17 - calling the disciples his friends so uh John 15 ver4 you are my friends if you do what I command you no no longer do I
01:07:2601:07:26 - call you slaves for the slave does not know what his master is doing but I have called you friends for all things that I
01:07:3201:07:32 - have heard from my father I have made known to you so Jesus comes bearing the father’s will but he came to forge
01:07:4001:07:40 - relationships with us to be our Advocate to be accessible someone who we talk to someone who can appeal to the father on
01:07:4701:07:47 - our behalf and he has gained access to the father for us he intercedes for us we
01:07:5401:07:54 - have an ear into the sorry we have an in to the throne room of God through Jesus Christ um so some passages for that John
01:08:0201:08:02 - Chapter 14 verse six Jesus said to him I am the way and the truth of the life no one comes to the father but through me
01:08:0901:08:09 - so Jesus playing that role of mediator between us and the father Ephesians chapter 2 verse 18 for through him we
01:08:1901:08:19 - both have our access in one Spirit to the father we have access to the throne room of God through Jesus Christ and
01:08:2701:08:27 - then also Ephesians 3:12 in whom who he being Christ we have boldness and competent access through
01:08:3501:08:35 - faith in him so this is Jesus in his role as the mediator the one through whom we have access to God the Father
01:08:4601:08:46 - who has authority over us um so again just as before kind of talked for a long time here um aie do you have more you
01:08:5401:08:54 - want to say um maybe particularly on that idea of subordination um and and how we work
01:09:0101:09:01 - that into the equality that the members of the Trinity share
01:09:0601:09:06 - so as you said the uh sun is a a role that uh uh was created specifically
01:09:1701:09:17 - for um I would say the Redemption because of course as we know the Redemption of the of of of of human
01:09:2701:09:27 - beings is the Lynch
01:09:3301:09:33 - pin of creation that creation will work is that that Redemption happen so we talk about the cross being the the
01:09:4301:09:43 - central truth the foundational truth of creation so that was only possible because one member of the trinity
01:09:5501:09:55 - was willing to subordinate himself to another essentially to say I will serve at your command so whatever
01:10:0801:10:08 - you say is what I’ll do was an elected thing every time that anyone else has tried to explain this by talking about
01:10:1601:10:16 - how the Sun was generated um eternally as they as they put it that he was somehow generated
01:10:2601:10:26 - from the father misses the point entirely if he is God then he was not generated if he was generated then he is
01:10:3501:10:35 - not God so essentially the the place of this uh this this particular role was was you could say designed by the Lord
01:10:4701:10:47 - in order to make Redemption possible and uh when we when we speak to the
01:10:5601:10:56 - uh subordination that we just talked about again it’s it’s it’s just a choice that the second person of the
01:11:0601:11:06 - Trinity that is that the the the member of the godhead that’s elected to be the son chose in order to realize the plan
01:11:1801:11:18 - of God he was not subordinate to the father because there was a power gradients there one of them being
01:11:2801:11:28 - greater than the other that’s not how that worked it was that when creation comes into
01:11:3501:11:35 - existence I will play this role which is a role where I will be servant to you
01:11:4401:11:44 - and since he was going to take on uh a human nature as well this was going to be sort of a permanent thing because you
01:11:5501:11:55 - you see that in 1 Corinthians 15 It also says that um the son will eventually be subject to the father of
01:12:0401:12:04 - course he he is he always is that he will turn over the kingdom to to to the father and he too will be in subjection
01:12:1401:12:14 - to the father that’s because the um what’s it called the uh human nature that he acquires remains extent
01:12:2601:12:26 - throughout uh eternity it will never be removed anymore so in his human nature he is actually subservient to the father
01:12:3501:12:35 - but in his deity is equal to the father so um I think that’s
01:12:4201:12:42 - uh that’s what I can say at the moment about that I’m looking for this passage you might be able to help me aie um
01:12:5101:12:51 - maybe it’s this I’m thinking of when um hold on trying to find the verse reference here Matthew 19 verse 27 maybe
01:13:0101:13:01 - where the apostles came and they asked who is g to be the greatest right and Jesus yeah talks about becoming servants
01:13:0801:13:08 - do you know what I’m talking about um yes yes I do uh I think you okay so it was James and John
01:13:1801:13:18 - right if I’m not sure if it was John but it was how how you could find it as a uh um here we go this looks prom he he
01:13:2901:13:29 - brought a child among them so let me there were there were two or three other places yeah we’re going on I mean yeah
01:13:3801:13:38 - that that was the Matthew 18 that I that I found but this was specifically the one I was thinking of the sons of zebede
01:13:4401:13:44 - um so this is Mark chapter 10 vers 35 and following um verse 35 says James and John the sons of zebede came to him
01:13:5101:13:51 - teacher they said we want you to do for us whatever we ask you know of course they don’t lead with what they want
01:13:5701:13:57 - right but um verse 36 what do you want me to do for you he asked they replied let one of us sit at your right and the
01:14:0301:14:03 - other it’s your left in your glory you don’t know what you are asking Jesus said can you drink the cup I drink or be
01:14:1001:14:10 - baptized with the baptism I am baptized with we can they answered not knowing what they were signing up for Jesus said
01:14:1901:14:19 - to them you will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I baptized with but to sit at my right or
01:14:2501:14:25 - left is not for me to Grant these places belong to those for whom they have been prepared when the 10 heard about this
01:14:3201:14:32 - they became indignant with James and John Jesus called them together and said you know that those who are regarded as
01:14:3801:14:38 - rulers of the Gentiles lorded over them and their High officials exercise authority over them not so with you
01:14:4501:14:45 - instead whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant and whoever wants to be first must be slave
01:14:5201:14:52 - of all for even the son of man did not come to be Serv but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many so why I’m
01:14:5901:14:59 - bringing up this passage is to get at the idea that the one who has the most Authority is the one who serves most of
01:15:0901:15:09 - all this doesn’t mean that the son is greater than the father but this idea that in service there is there’s
01:15:1501:15:15 - necessarily inferior power right um because if you look through the New Testament Jesus is uniform in insisting
01:15:2301:15:23 - that whoever wants to be greatest must be least of all he must dedicate himself to service um and this idea that
01:15:3101:15:31 - dedicating yourself to service necessarily debases you um I don’t know where we get that from really I mean
01:15:3701:15:37 - like throughout a lot of history a lot of what I would call the noble aristocratic classes have had this idea
01:15:4301:15:43 - that only peasants do hard physical labor you know that sort of thing right um they they they try to make it a class
01:15:4901:15:49 - distinction but that’s not present in the Bible so when we think of Jesus you know subordinating himself to the
01:15:5701:15:57 - father’s will serving as the sacrifice for Humanity laying down his life to save Humanity why do we think of that as
01:16:0501:16:05 - lesser now to be clear there is the idea of subordination in kosis um and and coming back to that again a little bit
01:16:1401:16:14 - when we hear about the human part of Jesus subordinating himself to the father you know Jesus goes at Great
01:16:2101:16:21 - Lengths on about the father’s will and I have come to D to do the will of him who sent me right you know he uses wording
01:16:2801:16:28 - like this frequently but you know that can be true um and that’s not you know it it’s complicated in how the Divinity
01:16:3701:16:37 - of the second person of the Trinity interacts with um the Incarnation um because for example uh the Judgment for
01:16:4401:16:44 - human sin upon the cross wasn’t just the human person Jesus emptied completely of his divinity Jesus had to be fully God
01:16:5001:16:50 - and fully man for the sacrifice for our sins but in his subordination to the father’s will you know part of that was
01:16:5901:16:59 - going to the Cross to die for us and that wasn’t just the human part of Jesus right um but God had this as a purpose
01:17:0801:17:08 - from eternity past um you know something else I don’t want to ramble here but um eth this has made the point you know
01:17:1501:17:15 - this is just necessarily true because of God’s omniscience but before God created the universe he knew that Jesus was
01:17:2301:17:23 - going to be sent to die to save us from our sin right creating the universe meant that that step was sure and
01:17:3001:17:30 - certain um you know for us as finite beings Bound by time we we don’t think like this but to God creating the
01:17:3601:17:36 - universe meant that Jesus would go die on the cross that’s what it meant when God took that step of creation that was
01:17:4301:17:43 - set in stone that’s how the Divine decrees work everything is for ordained right you know based on God’s forn
01:17:5001:17:50 - knowledge of our Free Will and so on but just think about that for a second right the the Trinity from the time they
01:17:5601:17:56 - created the universe knew that this was coming and Jesus still went down to be born in weak human vesture to live a
01:18:0601:18:06 - life of immense suffering to die for our sins even so right um but in this um you know a couple other analogies um and uh
01:18:1801:18:18 - uh you know again maybe I’m jumping all over the place here but um when we think about responsibilities too I I think
01:18:2501:18:25 - something else that comes up is um 1 Corinthians 12 maybe you know how we all have our spiritual gifts all have our
01:18:3201:18:32 - things in the church and we don’t get to look down on people who have different gifts from us um and if you’ve ever
01:18:4101:18:41 - worked on a team um you know most of us uh here on this call probably aren’t in the military but you probably heard
01:18:4801:18:48 - about things like you know you have sergeants and enlisted men and then you have the officers right and
01:18:5301:18:53 - traditionally there’s always sort of a tension between these groups of people but in the end they come together to
01:19:0001:19:00 - meet the objectives of their unit right and is one greater or lesser than the other one of them has commanding
01:19:0701:19:07 - Authority but does that make that person better um and it’s complicated you know that analogy is imperfect because there
01:19:1501:19:15 - is such a thing as Rank and Authority in the military and that’s not true of the people in the Trinity right we have
01:19:2101:19:21 - taken great pains already in our study to emphasize that there is no inequality within the unity
01:19:2801:19:28 - of the Trinity there cannot be any of that no disparity in status or Eternal function or substance right um but you
01:19:3801:19:38 - can have different people on the same team that do different things and one of those people is the one who says do this
01:19:4501:19:45 - dot that and the other people follow that does that mean that there’s inequality there
01:19:5201:19:52 - inherently you know a you want to pick up again sorry I’ve kind of gone several directions here but um yeah I I think
01:20:0101:20:01 - this the the main the main idea um that I would uh I would hold out is this the position
01:20:1201:20:12 - of the the way the Trinity works is that in so far as the three persons involved are each God in their
01:20:2401:20:24 - own right they’re equal to each other but when it comes to how they working to
01:20:3301:20:33 - realize the the plan for creation that they have as God in that particular um
01:20:4401:20:44 - dynamic they do not actually if you will compete for equality the father is held out by the both the other two members of
01:20:5401:20:54 - the church Trinity as being the greatest and the reason for that is not that they are any less God or they are
01:21:0301:21:03 - less powerful or they of less Authority than him no it is for the sake of that plan earlier in this series we talked
01:21:1201:21:12 - about the fact that one member of the Trinity is actually presented by the Bible as being
01:21:2101:21:21 - the face of God in other words most places that you see um the word god used in the Scriptures it is him to which it
01:21:3301:21:33 - refers uh for example when we go to that First Corinthians 15 that we talked about if memory serves me right uh I
01:21:4101:21:41 - actually have my Bible right here let me just um pull that up to make sure I’m accurate on what I’m saying in 1
01:21:4901:21:49 - Corinthians 15 it it actually
01:21:5501:21:55 - holds that everything that is put under in subjection to Christ everything
01:22:0301:22:03 - is put in in subjection to Christ is does not include God himself and later on the son himself is made
01:22:1301:22:13 - subject to him so the only place to see God the father as in where the father is mentioned is in verse 24 when it says
01:22:2101:22:21 - then the end will come when he he hands over the kingdom to God the Father specifying which member of the Trinity
01:22:2701:22:27 - to whom the kingdom is handed um but the point here is most times that you see the word God use it
01:22:3701:22:37 - refers to the father without there isn’t any um uh provision of clarification as to which member of the Trinity
01:22:4801:22:48 - because all three members of the Trinity agreed that the father would be the faith of God the face of the Trinity the
01:22:5601:22:56 - one who who who is presented as the representation of God to Creation but when we go to um Genesis 3 the Lord God
01:23:0901:23:09 - that we see talked about all the time there is actually the second person of the Trinity it’s not the father
01:23:1601:23:16 - himself and this is because of the role of the son and then when we go to uh Zechariah Chapter 2 and I believe vers 8
01:23:2501:23:25 - and N or so I’ve mentioned that passage a few times we see that the person who is
01:23:3101:23:31 - saying or of whom it was speaking the person who said um thus say this is how it was put thus says the Lord
01:23:4101:23:41 - God do you have that it’s I have that look right yes that’s it that’s it for this is what the Lord
01:23:4801:23:48 - Almighty says after the Glorious one has sent me out against Nations have plundered you
01:23:5501:23:55 - and so on and so forth so in in other translations you will have th says this is what the Lord God says after after
01:24:0601:24:06 - the Lord God has sent me after you know Glory or something of that sort the idea here is you have the Lord God and the
01:24:1601:24:16 - Lord God is you know the second person of the Trinity that’s actually the person who is speaking in Zechariah
01:24:2201:24:22 - Chapter 2 again so it’s not as if we’re saying that um
01:24:3101:24:31 - um the the the the title God or that first of all that there is any disparity of of power or position in the Trinity
01:24:4101:24:41 - there is none but also for the sake of the plan that they have for creation the two the other two members of the Trinity
01:24:4901:24:49 - are fine with having a representation of themselves in the scriptures that appears to suggest that they subordinate
01:25:0101:25:01 - to the father so the son for example is the son he is the son even before he becomes
01:25:1001:25:10 - human he’s not he’s not the son purely due to his Humanity he is the son because that’s
01:25:1801:25:18 - the role that he chose to play and the father is greater than the son I mean and so this this theme of accessibility
01:25:2601:25:26 - so I don’t mean to cut in too much but the theme of accessibility carries into christophanies into the Old Testament so
01:25:3201:25:32 - when we think of Moses speaking to the burning bush of Abraham having a conversation with God they’re talking to
01:25:4001:25:40 - the you person second person in the Trinity right the one who is accessible who is representing them to the father’s
01:25:4701:25:47 - Authority um yes yes indeed so that that that is um that is the point there okay so the point the the main thing I I was
01:26:0101:26:01 - trying to address is um it’s it’s almost as if the Trinity just doesn’t seem to care whether you
01:26:1201:26:12 - think that um because the son acts in subordination to the father and the
01:26:2001:26:20 - spirit acts as at the behest of the father and the son that somehow the son is therefore less than
01:26:2801:26:28 - the father in his deity or that the spirit is less than the father and the son in his deity it’s not that they
01:26:3501:26:35 - don’t care about the truth involved in this it’s more that just as we saw um in what Jesus said to his Apostles and what
01:26:4301:26:43 - we see in Phil in Philippians chapter 2 the dynamic in the Trinity is a dynamic of love it’s not one of jealousy you
01:26:5201:26:52 - don’t see them basically struggling to to to establish themselves as something they seem to be just very
01:27:0101:27:01 - comfortable in what they are such that if you don’t accept them to be what they are that’s that’s to your own detriment
01:27:0801:27:08 - it doesn’t affect them in any way so but the scriptures do make it clear to us that the father is God holy and
01:27:1801:27:18 - completely God but so is the Son and so is the spirit so the the the way we are supposed to take things then is if he is
01:27:2701:27:27 - the son it’s not because he is less God he is less powerful he’s less anything he was eternally generated and so on and
01:27:3401:27:34 - so forth It’s that he elected it to to accept a position of subservience it really is subservience a position of
01:27:4301:27:43 - being less than the father but not because he is less in his nature or character but less in
01:27:5001:27:50 - function than the father so he serves at the father’s behalf and in John chapter I believe it’s
01:27:5701:27:57 - chapter 14 to where Jesus was talking about sending the spirit he said that the spirit would take from what is his
01:28:0601:28:06 - to show it to the church so there it may the the the way he spoke of the spirit there could suggest someone give someone
01:28:1401:28:14 - the idea that the spirit is somehow less than the Sun but it does not mean that the spirit is
01:28:2201:28:22 - less in in nature of or character than the son what he is is less in function because that is what he chose and he did
01:28:3101:28:31 - not and and then again as Professor Robert would say that there is no these are not hard and fast demarcations
01:28:3801:28:38 - between the members of the Trinity there there’s a lot of overlap in these functions that we talked about in a lot
01:28:4401:28:44 - of ways the person that the Bible gives to us as the father is he’s very like the son in in
01:28:5301:28:53 - the same function in there are things that he does that you would have attributed to the to the son that it’s
01:28:5901:28:59 - actually the father who does same thing with the spirit so there’s a lot of overlap it’s not hard and fast but the
01:29:0601:29:06 - way the Bible presents these things to us is sort of to tell us all three of them are involved in this Plan of
01:29:1401:29:14 - Redemption this plan of creation Redemption and the um uh confirmation of the family of God in eternity there each
01:29:2401:29:24 - each member of the Trinity um and and the the collective Trinity is fully invested in realizing what God planned
01:29:3501:29:35 - from eternity past so that’s that’s the takeaway that we should have than getting all caught up in the whole
01:29:4301:29:43 - business of who is greater than who another point to make perhaps this will help by way of other examples when we
01:29:5001:29:50 - think of Pastor teachers um even Apostles among the church are they greater than other human beings
01:29:5701:29:57 - I mean it kind of depends what one means by this right are they greater humans you are they just better inherently well
01:30:0501:30:05 - not not really they have a different job however that job of theirs does grant them authority over others right but are
01:30:1401:30:14 - they better inherently well not really it’s the role you see not the person right and if we are able to disentangle
01:30:2301:30:23 - that for human beings well it’s the same thing for the members of the Trinity right how about men and women in
01:30:3001:30:30 - marriage now unfortunately there’s been a group of people throughout history that has done violence to the proper
01:30:3701:30:37 - interpretation men and women are spiritually equal um there’s a verse in Galatians says neither slave nor free um
01:30:4501:30:45 - nor man nor woman nor Greek nor Jew nor Greek right um you know basically all of these things don’t
01:30:5201:30:52 - divide us in Christ Jesus right women are in no way spiritually like lesser than men um that is false
01:31:0101:31:01 - doctrine that is heresy that is something that we should fight against tooth and nail because it’s very
01:31:0601:31:06 - spiritually damaging but within marriage the Bible is nonetheless very clear that men are the head of
01:31:1301:31:13 - households that is where the authority is but again that is a role are men better than women well no but do men
01:31:2401:31:24 - have authority in the household well yes you see what we’re saying right so just as men in marriage just as teachers
01:31:3201:31:32 - within the church just as the father in The Trinity right um that’s all there is to it um it doesn’t mean that in
01:31:4101:31:41 - marriage and in the church that those people those human beings are better than other human beings and so too when
01:31:4801:31:48 - we talk about the members of the Trinity it has nothing to do with greatness it has to do with delegated authority
01:31:5501:31:55 - within the roles that they fill um yeah yeah I did went this is a little bit Ah head skipping in the study but almost
01:32:0501:32:05 - word for word what you said Audi um as Dr lugan bille saying the same thing it is of labor but it is not strict man in
01:32:1301:32:13 - most of these and other joint actions of the Trinity there is overlap and further subdivision of responsibilities which is
01:32:1901:32:19 - often only hinted at in scripture right overlap and further subdivis Vision um we are talking about things to help us
01:32:2801:32:28 - understand and contextualize the function of the roles in the Trinity right um yeah and so you know how we’ve
01:32:3401:32:34 - gone on before about if you have a parable and you try to push it past what you should you run into problems yeah
01:32:4101:32:41 - yeah kind of the same thing here right and we’ve talked about this before uh specifically we keep harping on all
01:32:4701:32:47 - those people who get all bent out of shape about the Eternal generation of the Sun and things like that right they
01:32:5301:32:53 - have in the same way that people who who reason about analogies and Parables have gone off the rails that too is pushing
01:33:0101:33:01 - this it is a metaphor it is not literal right um although the human part of Jesus was literally begotten by God that
01:33:0901:33:09 - part is literal but I mean generally speaking what we are talking about in the roles is a metaphor to help us
01:33:1501:33:15 - understand um yeah all right well maybe we’ll pause see if folks have any questions here right
01:33:2701:33:27 - so now we’re going to talk about the role of the holy spirit in the Trinity so the third person of the Trinity and
01:33:3401:33:34 - just as with the other two roles we’re going to be going kind of in order here first talking about the origin then the
01:33:4001:33:40 - significance and then the person um of this role or this person in the Trinity so uh previously when we’ve been talking
01:33:5001:33:50 - about the origin of the father uh we we mentioned uh kind of how this idea of fatherhood comes up so there’s this
01:33:5701:33:57 - passage in Hebrews chapter 12 that talks about God disciplining us as human fathers we made this point that uh God
01:34:0401:34:04 - is basically like fathers except better in every way so our human fathers may be imperfect but God is like that except
01:34:1201:34:12 - ever to a more perfect degree and we made the point that it’s the human that copies the Divine not the other way
01:34:1901:34:19 - around that’s how typology works so too with the sun um we had all of these comparisons with uh basically where
01:34:2601:34:26 - we’re getting this idea of sunship from the Bible Well the spirit is actually perhaps uh even more straightforward as
01:34:3301:34:33 - to where we get it uh because the words for Spirit in both Greek and Hebrew mean breath or wind as well um so this idea
01:34:4401:34:44 - of some unseen force is just right there in the Greek and Hebrew and so uh the Greek and Hebrew words for Spirit you
01:34:5201:34:52 - know this is straight from ichus ruak is the uh is the Hebrew word and Numa is the Greek word here and both of these as
01:35:0001:35:00 - I say have that meaning of wind or Breeze as well as meaning spirit so when we say holy spirit in English and we get
01:35:0901:35:09 - this idea of uh some form of force or some form of uh presence that has this unseen effect this restraining effect as
01:35:2001:35:20 - we’ll talk about in in a second here it’s just kind of right there in the words um and so we don’t even have to uh
01:35:2701:35:27 - I don’t know go find specific uh you know maybe kind of this typology like we were talking about with the sun um all
01:35:3301:35:33 - of these things throughout the Bible that point us towards that idea of sunship well the idea of spirit is kind
01:35:3901:35:39 - of right there in the title um I mean I guess obviously sun is as well but the spirit’s a little bit more obvious in
01:35:4601:35:46 - this way um now just to emphasize up front here and we’ll talk about this in a little bit more just because the
01:35:5301:35:53 - Spirit has this sense of being unseen he’s this Force that’s working behind the scenes to restrain evil and Empower
01:36:0001:36:00 - good and you know uh indwell us connect us to the father and the son have perfect Unity with God that doesn’t mean
01:36:0801:36:08 - that he is impersonal that he is somehow just like a force of Nature and doesn’t have a will or personality um we’ve kind
01:36:1701:36:17 - of already been over this but it’s just we have to emphasize that that even though he is the Unseen member of the
01:36:2201:36:22 - Trinity for us that does not mean that he is not a person um that he doesn’t for example intercede for us with
01:36:3001:36:30 - groanings too deep for Words forget exactly which passage that is we’ve already read that but the spirit is a
01:36:3601:36:36 - person and so we just need to not forget that um it’s maybe easy for us to view him somewhat more impersonally because
01:36:4401:36:44 - he has these effects without being someone that we address uh like when we pray to the father we kind of pray
01:36:5201:36:52 - through Jesus Christ chist we made this big deal out of how Jesus sort of serves as the Crown Prince if you will the one
01:37:0001:37:00 - who gives us access to the throne room of the father well Jesus is the one uh kind of that we had face-to-face access
01:37:0701:37:07 - with the father is the one that we address our prayers to as the representation of deity the one with
01:37:1301:37:13 - authority but we kind of don’t have that same impact with the spirit but the spirit is the one who helps us pray to
01:37:2101:37:21 - the father and the son and so so the idea behind this is that even though the spirit’s unseen he is not somehow
01:37:2901:37:29 - impersonal um maybe in the sense that you would think of I don’t know maybe more Eastern conceptions of some force
01:37:3601:37:36 - of nature or fate or what have you um uh this holy spirit is a person and again that is rolling back to the definition
01:37:4401:37:44 - of the Trinity that we’ve been going over of three persons one Essence well the spirit is one of the three persons
01:37:5101:37:51 - um all right so that’s kind of where we get this idea of spirit of wind of breath from is that it’s right there in
01:37:5901:37:59 - the words that are used in the title in both the Greek and the Hebrew and again just to note it’s actually quite
01:38:0601:38:06 - noteworthy that this same um what I would say the same set of meanings is actually present for the words in both
01:38:1401:38:14 - languages that is not very typical actually um a lot of the time if you have a word that can mean kind of two
01:38:2001:38:20 - things you know different separate meanings very often those connotative factors will differ across languages um
01:38:2801:38:28 - but for this specific word it’s actually there in both Greek and Hebrew which is quite noteworthy so that’s kind of where
01:38:3401:38:34 - we get the idea of spirit from and as to the significance of this well just compare the idea of physical wind in the
01:38:4201:38:42 - world so the wind is a potent invisible force though we perceive it and experience its effects we can neither
01:38:4801:38:48 - see where it has come from or where it is going to we have this uh basically a verse reference here from John chapter
01:38:5601:38:56 - 3:8 um well so too is that true of everyone who’s born from the spirit um you might also compare I think somewhere
01:39:0301:39:03 - in 1 Corinthians chapter 2 maybe Verse 18 don’t quote me on that reference um Paul mentions how basically spiritual
01:39:1101:39:11 - things seem like foolishness to those who do not see with eyes of Faith well so at any rate the wind as this potent
01:39:1801:39:18 - invisible force um now of course nowadays uh with with science and and instruments that help us measure such
01:39:2501:39:25 - things like barometric pressure we have a better understanding of wind patterns you know on the surface of the Earth if
01:39:3101:39:31 - you will however the main point is is that for us in the metaphor here by analogy we experience the effects of the
01:39:4001:39:40 - wind’s presence without really being able to trace it at least not with the naked human eye and so the effects that
01:39:4801:39:48 - we experience can be anything from sort of a gentle warming influence you know you might might compare a day with good
01:39:5501:39:55 - weather out in the sunshine having a gentle breeze on your face uh to something uh like a powerful chilling
01:40:0201:40:02 - wind maybe in a storm something that would give you hypothermia lose body heat very quickly and so uh variety of
01:40:1001:40:10 - effects that’s something to emphasize here it’s not all just one thing um and we’ll get to that a bit when we talk
01:40:1501:40:15 - about the spirit’s role here um but wind and again that is the same word that we’re using for Spirit in the Greek and
01:40:2201:40:22 - the Hebrew is very descriptive as an analogy for the holy spirit’s role in the plan of God his invisible yet
01:40:3001:40:30 - powerful support for good um we have a couple verse references here um this one from Zechariah Chapter 4 uh verse 6 not
01:40:3901:40:39 - by might nor by power but by my spirit says the Lord right and this is zarab Babble building in this book in
01:40:4601:40:46 - Zechariah and then we have 1 Corinthians chapter 12 here talking about uh how the Holy Spirit
01:40:5301:40:53 - will basically he’s the one who enables us to have faith I’m paraphrasing a bit but um no one can say Jesus is Lord
01:41:0101:41:01 - except by the Holy Spirit um and then he also restrains evil so we have this this passage here in second Thessalonians
01:41:1001:41:10 - chapter 2 um this is talking about uh it’s prophetic um it’s talking about the Restraint of the Holy Spirit when it
01:41:1701:41:17 - gets removed in the end times um the mystery of lawlessness um well once the spirit is removed uh the
01:41:2601:41:26 - lawlessness of the world um this Restraint of evil when it is taken away the world will go will go wild it will
01:41:3301:41:33 - go crazy in a way that the spirit has thus far been restraining so this is passage in second Thessalonians chapter
01:41:4001:41:40 - 2 veres 5 and following um also uh you know uh I’m not going to go through all the
01:41:4801:41:48 - references here but the point is Spirit restrains evil um we actually have the same verse from from second Corinth or 1
01:41:5401:41:54 - Corinthians chapter 12 um talking about how well we can only confess Jesus as Lord through the power of the spirit but
01:42:0101:42:01 - also when people reject him um that uh basically the spirit is the one who controls our I don’t me think about how
01:42:1101:42:11 - to phrase this um the spirit is the one who restrains um evil among people who don’t confess but also is the one
01:42:1901:42:19 - through whom we can confess our belief um so um again just to summarize the significance of this of this analogy of
01:42:2701:42:27 - this metaphor for the role of the spirit is a potent force that is not seen by us it has these effects on um basically
01:42:3701:42:37 - supporting good and restraining evil both in us uh you know like the fight between the spirit and the flesh you
01:42:4401:42:44 - might compare uh Galatians chapter 5 where we know that the Flesh and the spirit are in conflict with one another
01:42:5101:42:51 - but also in the world more generally um both supporting good and restraining evil now in terms of the person we say
01:43:0001:43:00 - that the spirit is the third person of the Trinity so we talked about uh already the father is the first person
01:43:0701:43:07 - and the son is the second person and when we think in terms of grammar the first person um as the father when he
01:43:1301:43:13 - decrees things he uses this eye language um you know like uh my decrees stand firm for all time and it will go as I
01:43:2201:43:22 - have planned it things like that um the authoritative uh the one who speaks forth his decrees we’ve talked about how
01:43:2901:43:29 - the son is sort of the second person the one whom we access the one who we address we talk to as one of us face to
01:43:3701:43:37 - face and the spirit is the third person who we don’t address and who doesn’t address us but he is there nonetheless
01:43:4501:43:45 - working out God’s plan in the world so again unlike the father he does not speak directly to us and unlike the son
01:43:5401:43:54 - he has not been made manifest to us you know taking on human flesh being born into the world in the Incarnation but
01:44:0101:44:01 - instead just like the wind the spirit is unseen by us but also just like the wind that doesn’t mean that we don’t
01:44:0801:44:08 - experience his power that we can’t feel the effects of his ministry and just to emphasize again the spirit is not
01:44:1701:44:17 - impersonal he is a person he is one of the three members of the godhead in the Trinity and so when we say that we feel
01:44:2601:44:26 - his effects it’s not in the same way um that we have these laws of nature if you will or or things that aren’t personal
01:44:3501:44:35 - um so um we talked about this passage before where um the spirit I should have pulled this up beforehand um Audie do
01:44:4301:44:43 - you know off the top of your head um the passage where in the New Testament the spirit is is said to be the one Speaking
01:44:5001:44:50 - um I think this is Ephesians is it Ephesians or Hebrews it’s in Hebrews chapter
01:44:5701:44:57 - 4 Hebrews 4 I know it’s quoting an Old Testament scripture um can you hear me yeah I can hear you
01:45:0701:45:07 - okay it’s in Hebrews chapter 3 Hebrews chapter 3 yes right here um the Holy Spirit
01:45:1501:45:15 - speaks here right um so I’m sorry I should have pulled that reference up before but this is the point the Holy
01:45:2201:45:22 - Spirit despite being this force that is largely unseen by us he is still a personal member of the godhead um he’s
01:45:3001:45:30 - still speaks and this also gets to one of those other points that we’ve talked about before that the roles are not uh
01:45:3901:45:39 - let me think about the right way to put this they there are somewhat blurry lines of distinction between them right
01:45:4601:45:46 - um it is not uh as certain groups suppose something that is like forced by Nature upon the members of God it is
01:45:5401:45:54 - something that they have elected to adopt in uh a way in which we humans might understand them um so um I think
01:46:0401:46:04 - that’s that’s uh about what we have to say about this um so to wrap up what we’ve gone over here for this third
01:46:1201:46:12 - person we’ve talked about where it comes from in the words um the significance of this analogy of viewing it like wind and
01:46:1901:46:19 - then also how uh despite the fact that the spirit is UN seen he still has these effects in the world but he’s also still
01:46:2601:46:26 - a person AI do you have anything to Riff on here maybe especially given this this quotation we just pulled up about the
01:46:3501:46:35 - spirit speaking and um tring to think about other one where it says he intercedes for us he intercedes for us
01:46:4401:46:44 - should be Romans chapter eight yes yes right before yeah Roman that’s right before the um you know the
01:46:5201:46:52 - the whole chain of forn predestined Justified glorified sort of thing so not much um except just as
01:47:0201:47:02 - these things you’ve pointed out the note it’s not that we’re strictly saying he doesn’t speak to us he doesn’t you know
01:47:0801:47:08 - interact with us and all that it’s just that the role he plays in the Trinity um largely places him in a and
01:47:1701:47:17 - we’ve talked about these roles overlapping in some ways you know so we know that calls Jesus our inter
01:47:2301:47:23 - even though that’s more the spirit’s role you know so we have things like that happening um in the scriptures uh
01:47:3201:47:32 - so I think I think that the dis the discourse so far it should make sense as to why there is often that difficulty
01:47:4101:47:41 - with making sense of how um the spirit is the spirit for those who start to think that um uh the the spirit of God
01:47:5301:47:53 - uh is is somehow the animating force that makes the husk that is the father you know work or something like that if
01:48:0201:48:02 - God the father is the body and spirit somehow isting principle that’s not how any of this works he’s called the spirit
01:48:1001:48:10 - because of the role he plays that he is more in the background even though he is his effects are very very obvious and
01:48:1901:48:19 - undeniable as you have said he is the one one that is restraining evil in the world he’s also the one empowering
01:48:2601:48:26 - everything that is good everything that pleases God in the world so but he is not in the foreground he is not in the
01:48:3401:48:34 - for he’s not the one we we run into so to speak I think it’s really interesting to
01:48:4101:48:41 - consider you may see this come up as a theme in literature some this idea of the individual versus the collective the
01:48:4801:48:48 - spirit the role that he plays is actually present in both angles and I was somewhat inelegant getting the point
01:48:5501:48:55 - across um just because I don’t know why I was having a hard time phrasing it but this idea of the spirit allowing us you
01:49:0201:49:02 - know the he’s the one through whom we are able to confess Jesus Christ right um and this idea of in the personal
01:49:1001:49:10 - individual sense um what we do uh gate kept isn’t quite the right word but we are empowered by the spirit as
01:49:1801:49:18 - individuals um it’s kind of he’s the one through whom we are connected to God he’s the one who indwells us when we
01:49:2401:49:24 - believe all of that’s at the individual level but we also talked about how the spirit empowers good and restraints evil
01:49:3001:49:30 - in the world as a collective right so this idea of individual versus Collective or you know the world more
01:49:3701:49:37 - properly not the individual um the spirit is present at both macro levels if you will um and his effects are seen
01:49:4501:49:45 - in both places um and so I think that can be helpful for us understanding his role a bit better is that it’s not just
01:49:5301:49:53 - you know in an individual’s life this is true on the global scale as well as this passage in second Thessalonians mentions
01:50:0101:50:01 - when the Restraint of the spirit is removed then we’ll really see how he’s been restraining things across the
01:50:0901:50:09 - world I think that’s that’s about that all right so the thing that we’re going to
01:50:1801:50:18 - close with here in this examination of the Trinity rules is going to be mostly discussing how uh these analogies that
01:50:2601:50:26 - we’ve spoken of for the persons of the Trinity for these roles the idea of the fatherhood of the Father the sonh of the
01:50:3401:50:34 - Son and the spirits uh invisible empowering and restraining force in the world well how these things are
01:50:4201:50:42 - analogies and we don’t get to push the analogies to describe reality other than by analogy I mean it sort of seems like
01:50:5001:50:50 - a maybe a really obvious point to to make but it’s actually critically important because a lot of heresy in the
01:50:5601:50:56 - past has been because people don’t appreciate this point um and so maybe that’ll be more clear in a second here
01:51:0301:51:03 - so these things are representative of the individual roles in the plan of God for mankind and the analogies have been
01:51:1101:51:11 - given to help us understand the relationships and the functions of the three Divine Personalities in that plan
01:51:1601:51:16 - so how they relate to each other so to speak but we should not push the names of the roles past what they are intended
01:51:2501:51:25 - to be in the Bible which is analogies to our human frame of reference as in these are for us they are not clinical
01:51:3401:51:34 - descriptions of how God works so to speak so much as they are ways for us to better understand him and so um if you
01:51:4301:51:43 - have studied the nature of God at all You’ probably come across the words anthropomorphism and
01:51:5001:51:50 - anthropopathism and these are long technical jargony terms for describing how sometimes we ascribe things to God
01:51:5901:51:59 - to make him kind of like humans in form right um and actually I think maybe we don’t maybe we don’t anthropomorphize
01:52:0701:52:07 - God so much as we anthropopathy him anthropomorphism was I think more common that’s like I don’t know uh viewing
01:52:1301:52:13 - animals as more like humans in form path is and deals with this idea of emotion so a good example is God’s anger well in
01:52:2101:52:21 - any case just take a step back when we do this we are making God sort of fundamentally something he’s not to help
01:52:2901:52:29 - us better understand him now this isn’t like I don’t know this is some sort of terrible practice because the Bible uses
01:52:3501:52:35 - this right when we anthropomorphize god um we are saying he is a father well God is not a father in the same sense that
01:52:4301:52:43 - you or I have a human father but he is still Our Father why because in the same way that human fathers for example
01:52:5101:52:51 - discipline us and are the authority figure in our lives that we need to respect and submit to and things like
01:52:5701:52:57 - that well God is like that right and that’s why it’s a helpful way to help us understand him same deal with the
01:53:0301:53:03 - sunship of God and the Unseen effects of the Holy Spirit again these things are analogies for our benefit but the
01:53:1101:53:11 - problem here is when people take this and then they say that well because Jesus is the son of God that therefore
01:53:1901:53:19 - somehow it has to be true in what I would call the real objective ontological sense that the father
01:53:2501:53:25 - somehow originated the son that the son is created and hopefully you see right away that that is a problem that’s a
01:53:3301:53:33 - very different thing we’ve already emphasized in our study here that all three members of the Trinity share in
01:53:4001:53:40 - the same Essence they are all co-equal and co-eternal and consubstantial but they can’t be co-eternal if one
01:53:4701:53:47 - originates the other right now it is true that the human nature of Jesus Christ
01:53:5301:53:53 - was begotten we might say you know that is the word that you’ll hear come up here but that is his human nature and
01:53:5901:53:59 - his human nature only the Divine person of the Son of God is Not generated from the father and you can see where people
01:54:0701:54:07 - get it because in human terms Sons come from their fathers right well and their mothers you know um but the point is
01:54:1501:54:15 - that’s not descriptive of how the members of the Trinity relate to each other that is pushing the analogy too
01:54:2201:54:22 - far and so many heresies in the past you know many of them stumble on this point they say well the Bible speaks of God
01:54:3101:54:31 - the father and God the son therefore somehow the son must come from the father but in fact the son is co-equal
01:54:3701:54:37 - co-eternal consubstantial with the father he cannot be originated from him it’s simply not true that is pushing the
01:54:4401:54:44 - analogy too far um and so this the true of the spirit as well sometimes people will subordinate either the son or the
01:54:5001:54:50 - spirit as kind of being lesser than the father in some way maybe proceeding from him that is the language you’ll hear of
01:54:5701:54:57 - the spirit these things are not true they are pushing the analogies further than is permissible and so that’s kind
01:55:0401:55:04 - of the point that we’re making here fundamentally is that these things are just analogies they are nothing more and
01:55:1001:55:10 - nothing less and they are supposed to help us understand God and they are good and godly and we should use them because
01:55:1601:55:16 - the Bible does and they’re for our benefit but they are not supposed to tell us exactly like the scientific
01:55:2401:55:24 - accounting of things so to speak and trying to take them that way is incorrect you are trying to take the
01:55:3001:55:30 - text in a way that it was not meant to be taken um so you might hear things such as this the the Bible is not meant
01:55:3701:55:37 - to be a science textbook right people will say this about uh the Book of Genesis it is true to a degree but the
01:55:4301:55:43 - point is when we interpret things we need to understand what their purpose is what their point is doesn’t mean that we
01:55:4901:55:49 - can make the Bible mean whatever we want it to mean but it does mean that we need to read it as it was meant to be read so
01:55:5501:55:55 - to speak um all right so one other thing and I’ve already emphasized this the spirit is not impersonal right he is
01:56:0301:56:03 - invisible and largely unseen as an agent here in a way that the son was not so for example christophanies in the Old
01:56:1001:56:10 - Testament and obviously Jesus being physically Among Us however he does act in a very personal way towards us and
01:56:1701:56:17 - towards the other members of the Trinity um so there’s a lot of vers references here um I would encourage people who are
01:56:2401:56:24 - interested to go look these up these are coming from the study I didn’t make these um but the spirit is our comforter
01:56:3001:56:30 - and our encourager those things are something done individual to individual right person to person we would say um
01:56:3901:56:39 - leadership encouragement and empowerment these are personal uh what we might say actions of the spirit um personal and
01:56:4901:56:49 - animating you know he’s not just a force and so this is another way in which people take the analogy and then they
01:56:5801:56:58 - try to over apply it they say well you see the word for spirit is wind therefore just like the wind is
01:57:0401:57:04 - impersonal because it is the wind is not literally a person if we do make the wind a person we personify you know you
01:57:1101:57:11 - might hear like I don’t know Father Christmas or something right or Dawn as for example a woman with a trailing gown
01:57:2001:57:20 - or trailing cloak or something right that we’re personifying inanimate things well the spirit isn’t like that he is
01:57:2801:57:28 - like the wind in that the effects of his role as he plays out in God’s plan in the world are largely unseen but that
01:57:3501:57:35 - doesn’t mean that he isn’t a person and so these are just but two cases here of people taking the analogy and then going
01:57:4501:57:45 - further with it than we should um and so again the analogies are just analogies and nothing more but they do help us
01:57:5201:57:52 - better understand the roles of the trinity in the plan of God and that’s why they’re there in the
01:57:5801:57:58 - Bible Audie you have any thoughts on any of this stuff that we’ve gone over here not much just a reiteration of what we
01:58:0701:58:07 - said earlier of what I said earlier which you have essentially repeated which
01:58:1201:58:12 - is uh represent what the roles are supposed to be or what the rules are they don’t really tell
01:58:1901:58:19 - us for example most people get uh really interested in the identities of
01:58:2701:58:27 - different uh angels in the scriptures the names the names the spirit
01:58:3501:58:35 - the what we want to know about the godhead but they do tell us what we need to know which is how each member of the
01:58:4401:58:44 - Trinity is involved in this business that really concerns us in such to such a great
01:58:5501:58:55 - extent we are part of something really big really Eternal and we are learning just how involved God is with it um that
01:59:0601:59:06 - again like you said that he is Spirit does not mean that he is impersonal it also does not mean that um he is the
01:59:1401:59:14 - thing that is really alive and the rest of the godhead is more like I don’t know husks or something of that s all of this
01:59:2301:59:23 - is simply speaking to the functions the roles that they play so um I’m I’m not sure there is much more to add to all
01:59:3301:59:33 - that if anyone at this point honestly I feel more and more as if if anyone stumbles over these things they really
01:59:4001:59:40 - really want to stumble over them it’s in many studies now we have discussed pretty much the same thing over and over
01:59:4801:59:48 - again which is that whenever we come across analogies whenever we come across these names were not supposed to think
01:59:5501:59:55 - of them as if we’re thinking about human beings or creatures of any kind we’re talking about God he’s a fundamentally
02:00:0302:00:03 - different sort of existence from the universe he’s not like us we were our our creation was based on what he is but
02:00:1402:00:14 - that does not mean that he is like us we are if you will a poor imitation of what he is
02:00:2302:00:23 - should tell us that whenever we are trying to make sense of him we don’t use ourselves I love the way that someone
02:00:2802:00:28 - actually put it several months ago on clubhouse he said that you don’t do theology from
02:00:3402:00:34 - anthropology so you you leave man as man and treat God as God a lot of things that about God that we understand are
02:00:4402:00:44 - made understandable To Us by relating God to us through our experience in other words it’s like you know what a
02:00:5102:00:51 - father is yes God is something like that you know what the spirit is right yeah well the spirit is something like that
02:00:5902:00:59 - but that does not mean that you know the spirit is that and and God is that there are differences between what God is and
02:01:0702:01:07 - what we are even though in in a lot of ways if we understand what we are we get a good understanding of what God is
02:01:1602:01:16 - that’s yep yep and just I to Riff on what you’ve said said here it really should be obvious to us that’s something
02:01:2502:01:25 - that I think it perhaps Bears repeating given that a lot of people seem to not find this obvious or they argue it’s not
02:01:3202:01:32 - obvious and I don’t know how to say it in a a perhaps a diplomatic way other than it’s just they’re they’re wrong and
02:01:4002:01:40 - this is not hard is what we should say and we shouldn’t equivocate on this um the things that we’re talking about it
02:01:4702:01:47 - doesn’t matter that people have argued about them long and philosophical for hundreds of years in church history well
02:01:5302:01:53 - so what because these things are pretty clear from scripture and this idea that we’re talking about about analogies just
02:02:0002:02:00 - being analogies it’s pretty Central to the discipline that we typically call hermeneutics this idea of interpretation
02:02:0702:02:07 - of the Bible this is not like so to speak an 8,000 level course in hermeneutics it’s one of the very first
02:02:1402:02:14 - starting ones right you have to read the Bible as it was meant to be read right and part of that is you don’t push
02:02:2002:02:20 - analogies further than they should um so that’s just to say what AI has said here about this idea of people who
02:02:2702:02:27 - stumble over this they kind of have to want to because you have to twist things to take it in the the ways that that we
02:02:3602:02:36 - are arguing are incorrect um you have to be pushing something that basically you’re making this assumption that the
02:02:4202:02:42 - text doesn’t make itself um so uh with that that’s where we’ll close out this and uh um in the next lesson we are
02:02:5102:02:51 - going to be talking about uh how the roles show up in the New Testament more directly so we’ll be reading more
02:03:0102:03:01 - scripture so that’s where we’re going to end this lesson here talking about the roles in the Trinity so kind of an
02:03:0702:03:07 - overview of the three roles as we find them in the godhead and so we kind of started out uh talking about how the
02:03:1602:03:16 - roles in the Trinity um are kind of there to help us give perspective on how God works um so a Biblical way we would
02:03:2402:03:24 - say right as opposed to some ofat the illustrations that we’ve gone over previously that fail to capture that
02:03:3002:03:30 - idea of three persons one Essence uh kind of in a way that doesn’t mislead us and so um God has been uh for all time
02:03:4002:03:40 - relating to us in his Redemptive purpose towards mankind so saving us from our sin redeeming us um From Slavery to sin
02:03:4902:03:49 - reconciling us with himself in uh making us Sons and Daughters we have the inheritance of God With Jesus Christ as
02:03:5502:03:55 - our elder brother the first fruits and the resurrection all of this stuff he’s been doing this um and these roles that
02:04:0102:04:01 - he’s adopted as he relates to us um we’ve already talked about how all three members of the Trinity are involved in
02:04:0802:04:08 - all of these processes so all of that all of those jargony terms like Redemption and justification and all of
02:04:1502:04:15 - that sort of things all three members of the Trinity are part of it we talked about uh shared names of the Trinity so
02:04:2202:04:22 - Elohim in the Old Testament and as well as the tetragrammaton the proper name of God I
02:04:2902:04:29 - am who I am uh he who was and is and is to come we talked about the individual names for the Trinity and the roles that
02:04:3702:04:37 - they adopt so the father as the first person the one who speaks in the authoritative eye voice the son as the
02:04:4402:04:44 - accessible person the one who took on flesh that we can talk to as our older brother uh in the faith as the one who
02:04:5202:04:52 - intercedes for us before the father sort of just in the same way that uh people might go to the Crown Prince rather than
02:04:5902:04:59 - the authoritative King on the throne because he’s more accessible and then we talked about the Holy Spirit as the
02:05:0602:05:06 - Unseen yet powerful force that empowers good and restrains evil both in us as individuals and in the world as a whole
02:05:1302:05:13 - and then finally we just closed here talking about how all of these roles are just analogies we don’t get to go
02:05:1902:05:19 - further than what they are as analogies and so two examples we talked about was how the son is not actually originated
02:05:2802:05:28 - from the father and that if you think that because of the role son of the title son you’re getting the wrong idea
02:05:3402:05:34 - you’re pushing it too far same idea with viewing the spirit as wind if you view the spirit as impersonal you’re pushing
02:05:4102:05:41 - it too far the spirit is still a personal he’s one of the three persons of the Trinity so that is what we’ve
02:05:4802:05:48 - talked about uh in this last lesson and now we are going to be tur turning to talking about more actual direct
02:05:5402:05:54 - scripture to kind of back up some of what we’re saying and just to get a feel for how the roles function um as the New
02:06:0002:06:00 - Testament uh lists things out so that’s what we are going to be turning to next
Trinity Roles as Seen from Specific New Testament Scriptures
Video
Summary
The Trinity Roles are clearly visible in many passages in the New Testament. While the Bible does not have a specific passage where it gives us a full accounting of how the Trinity Roles work together to bring about God’s purposes (with all the specifics listed out in tidy boxes), one would be entirely remiss in stating that the Bible “doesn’t talk about the Trinity” (or the roles therein). Quite to the contrary, the Trinity is all over the New Testament, and not even in shadows and symbolism as in the Old Testament. With the benefit of the specific revelation given to us in our day and time (cf. the concept of progressive revelation), God’s triune nature is evident at every turn, and inescapably so.
Timestamps
0:000:00 - Intro and outline
00:5500:55 - Matthew 3:16-17
12:0512:05 - John 14:16
14:5314:53 - 1 Corinthians 12:4-6
22:4822:48 - 2 Corinthians 13:14
29:0029:00 - Ephesians 3:14-17
36:0236:02 - Ephesians 4:4-6
52:4752:47 - 1 Peter 1:1-2
58:2758:27 - Revelation 1:4-6
01:10:5701:10:57 - Summary and outro
Content
(Derived from https://ichthys.com/1Theo.htm)
Matthew 3:16-17
Now once Jesus had been baptized, He immediately came up out of the water, and, behold!, the heavens opened for Him, and He saw the Spirit of God coming down like a dove and lighting upon Him. And, behold!, a voice from heaven was saying, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.
The baptism of Christ had a much different symbolism from any other baptism John ever undertook. John had (rightly) understood the normal meaning of his unique baptism to be a visible act of repentance and a symbolic washing away of sins. This explains why he was reluctant to baptize the sinless Messiah (Matt.3:14). But in the case of Christ, the symbolism is different: His entrance into the water represents His willingness to submerge Himself into our sins (therefore to die for them); whereas His coming up out of the water represents His resurrection. In this, the role of the Trinity in Christ’s victory over death at the cross in death and resurrection is symbolized: the Son who undertook the mission to save us from our sins comes back to life (in His humanity); the Holy Spirit quickens Him (1Pet.3:18); and the Father who sent the Son pronounces His work and sacrifice satisfactory, efficacious and well-pleasing.
John 14:16
And I will ask the Father and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever.
This verse shows the Father in a position of authority, the Son interceding on behalf of believers, and the Holy Spirit being sent to help us.
1 Corinthians 12:4-6
There are different gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are different ministries, but the same Lord; and there are different results, but the same God who brings about all results in all cases.
Here we see clearly the respective roles of the Trinity in supporting our Christian ministry in life. The Holy Spirit gives us our particular spiritual gift(s) (cf. 1Cor.12:11); specific ministries are said to be assigned by our Lord Jesus Christ; and the Father is said to oversee and empower the results of those ministries: God gives us the gift (the Holy Spirit: He empowers us); God gives us the ministry (the Lord Jesus Christ: we share in His mission); God gives us the results (the Father: all effects are part of His plan).
2 Corinthians 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
The Trinity is seen here from the standpoint of salvation, before, during and after: The love of the Father sends the Son to die for sinful mankind (cf. Jn.3:16); The Son’s sacrifice reconciles us with the Father by satisfying the requirements of the Father’s righteousness, and thus providing grace, that is, salvation free to us since He paid; The Spirit unites in fellowship with God all who accept this offer of grace (based on Christ’s death) originating in God’s love.
Ephesians 3:14-17
For this reason I bow my knees to the Father, from whom His entire family in heaven and on earth has received its name, that He may grant you according to the riches of His glory to be powerfully strengthened in your inner person through His Spirit, so that, rooted and grounded in love, Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.
In this apostolic prayer of Paul, we see the Father as the authority to whom Paul prays; he prays for us to be strengthened by the Holy Spirit; the object of his prayer is that we may grow to be more like our Savior, Jesus Christ, and improve our relationship with Him in every way.
Ephesians 4:4-6
There is one body and One Spirit – just as when you were called it was in one hope that you were called. There is One Lord [Jesus Christ], one faith, one baptism. There is One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
In this precís of the “unity of the faith” (Eph.4:3), Paul reminds us of some of the most important common factors of our Christian faith. In doing so, certain aspects of individual Trinity roles are emphasized: the Holy Spirit’s role in bringing us into the body of Christ through His baptizing of us into Christ, and our concomitant hope of resurrection in Christ; the Lord Jesus Christ’s role as our object of faith and the Spirit baptism by which we enter into union with Him through that faith; the Father’s role as the unifying God of love, who knits His family of believers together in every way.
1 Peter 1:1-2
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who, though outcasts dispersed throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, were yet selected in the foreknowledge of God the Father, by means of the Holy Spirit’s consecration, for the obedience in and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.
Peter tells us that we believers are elected to eternal life according to the Father’s plan of salvation, the Holy Spirit’s implementation of salvation for us when we believe, and the Son’s work of salvation, in which and in whom we put our faith.
Revelation 1:4-6
Grace to you and peace from the One who is and was and is coming, and from the seven Spirits which are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
In John’s salutation from the Trinity, the Father’s eternity and imminent taking of possession of the devil’s world, the Spirit’s supervision of the devil’s world (see Rev.5:6; Is.11:2), and the Son’s victory and conquest over the devil’s world are emphasized.
Video/audio transcript
00:0000:00 - the next thing in the study that we’re going to be going through is examining the Trinity roles as seen from specific
00:0700:07 - New Testament scriptures so we’re going to be taking a collection of passages in the New Testament uh looking through
00:1300:13 - them and then trying to kind of analyze what they help tell us about the roles in the Trinity so not too much to this
00:2100:21 - uh just a bunch of passages we’re going to go through we’re going to look at Matthew chap 3: 16-1 17 John 14:16 1
00:2900:29 - Corinthians 12 veres 4-6 2 Corinthians 13:14 Ephesians chapter 3: 14-1 17 Ephesians chap 4: 4-6 1 Peter 1: 1-2 and
00:4300:43 - Revelation 1: 4-6 we’re just going to be examining these passages and uh what they tell us or uh how they help us
00:5200:52 - better understand the roles in the Trinity the first Passage that we’re going to look at here talking about the
01:0201:02 - roles in the Trinity as seen from New Testament scripture is Matthew 3: 16 and 17 so as we go through these I’m going
01:1001:10 - to go ahead and read the passage and then talk a bit about uh what ichus kind of has us draw from the passages and
01:1701:17 - then we’ll open it up for discussion just how we do normal things so Matthew chap 3: 16-1
01:2401:24 - 17 now once Jesus had been baptized he immediately came up out of the water and behold the heavens opened for him and he
01:3201:32 - saw the spirit of God coming down like a dove and lighting upon him and behold a voice from heaven was saying this is my
01:3901:39 - beloved Son with whom I am well pleased so the words that are emphasized uh this is a translation coming directly
01:4701:47 - from ichus we have Jesus bolded spirit of God so the spirit is bolded as well as the voice from Heaven um and so those
01:5601:56 - are the three things where you actually see the the people in the Trinity the persons of the Trinity the roles of the
02:0302:03 - Trinity present here so Jesus is the one that we can see right the person before hus he’s being baptized by John the
02:1102:11 - Baptist um and then the spirit of God well is actually taking form here you know perhaps unlike the wind we say the
02:1902:19 - spirit’s characteristic is that he’s unseen well okay fine but he is a liting on Jesus Christ he is going to empower
02:2602:26 - Jesus symbolically here in the baptism of Christ and then the voice from Heaven speaking in the first person if you’ll
02:3202:32 - note like we were emphasizing before is the authoritative father the the first person in the Trinity now um it’s
02:4202:42 - actually important to note that the baptism of Jesus is actually fundamentally different in its meaning
02:4802:48 - than all of the other baptisms of John which uh those of us that follow ichus um ichus holds that water baptism is the
02:5702:57 - baptism of John the Baptist it has always been that it has never been anything but that and that it has always
03:0203:02 - been uh in the traditional sense uh basically symbolically representative of repentance and uh basically preparing
03:1003:10 - oneself for accepting the Messiah um and so that is what normal water baptism as John did all of the other Jews meant but
03:1803:18 - it actually meant something different for Jesus right so the normal meeting of John’s baptism as I just said was a
03:2503:25 - visible Act of repentance and a symbolic washing way of sins um but this perhaps helps us understand why John was
03:3303:33 - actually kind of protesting when Jesus came to him to be baptized so this is Matthew chapter 3:14 when Jesus came to
03:3903:39 - John to be baptized John said I have need to be baptized by you and do you come to me so John tried to prevent
03:4703:47 - Jesus from being baptized well kind of rightly because Jesus had no need to be washed clean of sins um but the
03:5603:56 - symbolism of Christ baptism is actually quite bit different so Jesus’s entrance into the water represents his
04:0404:04 - willingness to be to submerge himself into our sins uh you know therefore to die by to die by them so um his coming
04:1304:13 - up from the water represents his resurrection right and so you can see that this is different symbolism than
04:1904:19 - some symbolic act to represent you know our repentance and the washing away of our sin this is Jesus being baptized in
04:2604:26 - our sins so that when he pays for them on the cross we might be forgiven and coming up from the water represents his
04:3504:35 - resurrection his power over sin and death um so in this um and now to turn us back to the Trinity maybe you’ve been
04:4304:43 - wondering why are we talking about this the role of the trinity in Christ victory over the death over Death At The
04:5004:50 - Cross is symbolized here so the son who undertook the mission to save us from our sins comes back to life right you
04:5804:58 - see things are happening to him so to speak the one that we see the holy spirit is the one who quickens him or as
05:0605:06 - we would say is the one the sort of the empowering Force here that uh he was made alive in the spirit he is
05:1405:14 - resurrected through the power of the spirit empowering Jesus behind the scenes we might say and it’s the father
05:2105:21 - who pronounces the son’s work as satisfactory efficacious and well pleasing so um in Jesus’s baptism this
05:2905:29 - is my son with whom I am well pleased well it’s not just Jesus as a you know like like this isn’t just something the
05:3705:37 - father says because it is symbolically representative here of the father’s acceptance of Jesus’s payment again
05:4505:45 - that’s the symbolism here for Jesus’s uh for Jesus’s baptism that is different than the normal meaning of John’s water
05:5405:54 - baptism so it’s kind of a lot to unpack there but the point is all three roles in the Trinity are present within this
06:0306:03 - uh you know the payment that Jesus made for our sins and his subsequent Resurrection um AUD and I have talked
06:0906:09 - about this some before um as we were talking about how in most of the things that relate to God’s Redemptive plan for
06:1706:17 - human history you can easily and obviously see all three members of the Trinity at work right so paying for
06:2306:23 - human sin we know that when Jesus took our sins upon himself uh you know suffering for them upon the cross to
06:3106:31 - sake God’s Judgment of these sins well that he did that through the power of the holy spirit so Jesus was the one who
06:3706:37 - had the mission the spirit is the one who made it possible but he was sent by the father and the father is the one who
06:4406:44 - pronounces that the payment has been accepted that um what Christ did for us was efficacious in removing the stain of
06:5106:51 - Sin from us and so in his uh death and judgment upon the cross and in his resurrection all three me of the Trinity
07:0107:01 - obviously present there and that kind of helps us understand how the three roles relate so you have any points to add to
07:0907:09 - this well certainly that that I’m not sure that this is actually adding anything but for those I’ve I’ve
07:1607:16 - actually heard someone make the argument that you have Jesus being
07:2307:23 - baptized still descending upon himself and declaring from Heaven that he is his own beloved Son with whom he is well
07:3207:32 - pleased I I don’t know what would lead anyone into believing that that is exactly how what this this passage is
07:3907:39 - saying it seems to me to be a far more straightforward demonstration of both the multiplicity of the personhood of
07:4907:49 - God as well as the reality of the Trinity that is there there is more than one person here
08:0208:02 - and whoever you are hearing here is still God so Jesus as God is going into the water as a man he is God and he is
08:1108:11 - man the spirit of God who is a different person is descending on him and somebody is speaking from Heaven that is not the
08:2008:20 - Jesus who is going into the water not the spirit who’s dep descending on Jesus so this this should be a very good to to
08:3008:30 - get um an introduction to the Trinity for anyone who you know that is an issue for um and again it says something about
08:3908:39 - the different roles being worked out Jesus is the one who is going into the water to take away the sins of the world
08:4708:47 - and we are seeing the spirit of God coming down to light on him that is the enabling to carry out this function
08:5708:57 - because we must remember what he he did in his flesh was done in the strength of the spirit he was not using his deity or
09:0509:05 - his godhood he was living as a man a true man so that if anything was going to be possible it had to have the
09:1209:12 - empower the empowerment of God behind it the empowerment of God other than himself he couldn’t use his own deity so
09:2109:21 - we see the spirit providing him with that empowerment just as the Holy Spirit provides provides it for any of us today
09:2809:28 - and then we see that the father himself is declaring pleasure which means the thing I want has been done the authority
09:3609:36 - side of things so this is a good demonstration of the multiple roles of the budhead in this just as everything
09:4809:48 - you have said I mean it’s basically just it all I think the uh the point that you made about kinosis is actually good I
09:5609:56 - didn’t really touch on that that the spirit’s role become that much more necessary to the process of our
10:0310:03 - Redemption when you consider that Jesus was under kinosis even on the cross right um so uh we would say that you
10:1210:12 - know Jesus had to be human to take on human sin right we that is a true Point theologically speaking but the
10:1910:19 - empowerment of the spirit is very very crucial there because Jesus couldn’t do this on his own right um so emphasizing
10:2810:28 - that Jesus had the spirit I mean like he was a human being in the same way that we are indwelt by the holy
10:3410:34 - spirit in the same way we are right um and so H you know not to get too bogged down in the details there but when we
10:4110:41 - say that what we’re saying is that the the role of the spirit when Jesus was on the
10:4710:47 - cross was very necessary as someone distinct from Jesus right um Jesus couldn’t do it in his Humanity under
10:5610:56 - kosis so that’s a a good point and and you’re completely right that this passage this is one of the ones that
11:0311:03 - makes the least sense if you don’t see the three persons in the Trinity is being separate persons that was one of
11:1011:10 - the points we made when we were talking about um just an overview of the doctrine of the Trinity generally
11:1511:15 - speaking there’s the other passage I think it’s in John chapter 14 where Jesus is requesting that the father send
11:2211:22 - the spirit that’s another great passage that illustrates why you have to have all three members of the Trinity being
11:2811:28 - different person otherwise you’d have God asking God to send himself right like it just doesn’t
11:3611:36 - make sense um yeah and those are perhaps the two clearest passages I can think of that just it it
11:4211:42 - it makes the Trinity it’s there it’s directly there you cannot really interpret these passages any other way
11:4911:49 - um so just reiterating things we’ve already gone over but it’s an excellent point because this is one of the
11:5511:55 - clearest passages in the entire Bible I think that shows not only that it has to be three people but also what those
12:0112:01 - three people do yeah speaking of John chapter 14 um a
12:1312:13 - and I have mentioned this as another verse very much carrying the sense of the necessity of the three persons of
12:1912:19 - the Trinity so we just got done talking about how all three persons of the Trinity are are sort of logically
12:2612:26 - necessary in the baptism of Christ because they can’t all be the same person you know someone being baptized
12:3112:31 - descending from heaven and speaking from Heaven all at the same time kind of can that all be one being same thing here
12:3912:39 - with you know Jesus is I here asking the father to give the comforter well sort of logically necess logically necessary
12:5112:51 - that these are three separate persons in the Trinity right distinct persons is the phrasing we would use so John 14:16
12:5812:58 - getting a little bit to myself says and I will ask the father and he will give you another comforter that he may be
13:0313:03 - with you forever um so pretty short verse here but this is another excellent verse that just outlines the need for
13:1113:11 - the three persons of the Trinity but actually more to the point of what we’re talking about here with how do the roles
13:1713:17 - of the Trinity function in the New Testament scripture well you can see here that the son is the one interceding
13:2413:24 - for believers he’s the one asking for the spirit right the father is the one in position of authority the one whom
13:3013:30 - the son is asking and the Holy Spirit is the one who’s being sent to help being sent by the father actually just how
13:3713:37 - Jesus is sent by the father so in a position of subordination in how he is functioning
13:4413:44 - in his role towards mankind Audi and I have been pretty emphatic in emphasizing that when we talk about quote unquote
13:5113:51 - the subordination of the father or sorry the subordination of the Son and the subordination of the spirit it is not by
13:5713:57 - nature or necessity but it is by the the roles they have adopted in God’s plan his Redemptive plan towards Humanity um
14:0714:07 - so uh I don’t think there’s really too much more to say A you have anything here um this one is pretty clear son is
14:1414:14 - the one asking father is the one in Authority spirit is the one being sent as the
14:2014:20 - Empower I don’t like that’s all there is to it really um yeah that’s all I don’t think there’s anything to add to that I
14:2814:28 - don’t but just to reiterate this is nonetheless even though it’s not hard
14:3514:35 - this is an excellent verse to bring up when we’re talking about these things because it’s clear as day um and
14:4214:42 - alongside this other one right both of these show that the necessity of the three distinct persons and show the
14:4814:48 - roles as they manifest in God’s actions towards us next we’re going to look at 1
14:5814:58 - Corinthians chap 12 veres 4-6 so uh verses 4-6 in that chapter say there are different gifts but the same
15:0815:08 - spirit and there are different Ministries but the same lord and there are different results but the same God
15:1415:14 - who brings about all results in all cases so in the Greek I would be pretty sure that spirit is going to be Puma
15:2315:23 - here Lord is going to be cuos and God is going to be Theos and in context here spirit is obviously the Holy Spirit Lord
15:3115:31 - is referring to Jesus Christ and God as in just Theos is referring to the father um and that tracks it checks out because
15:4015:40 - we are given gifts through the Holy Spirit um Jesus Christ as the head of the church is the one who gives us
15:4915:49 - Ministries and God the father is the one who perfectly incorporates what Ministries he forn knows us as having
15:5715:57 - into his perfect plan so um uh let me that was off the top of my head let me actually read what ikus has to say about
16:0416:04 - this so we see the respective roles of the trinity in supporting our Christian Ministry in life that’s kind of what
16:0916:09 - this particular passage here in 1 Corinthians 12 is talking about the holy spirit gives us our particular spiritual
16:1616:16 - gifts right you can also compare verse 11 of this chapter one in the same Spirit works all these things
16:2316:23 - Distributing to each one individually just as he Wills um also incidental side note we’ve been been talking recently a
16:3016:30 - little bit about how the holy spirit is personal how he is not an impersonal Force well in 1 Corinthians chapter 12
16:3816:38 - verse 11 he is said to have a will the wind as an impersonal force does not have a will not how persons do right so
16:4816:48 - but that’s tangential here the point is he’s the one Distributing the gifts individually to each person just as he
16:5316:53 - Wills specific Ministries are said to be assigned by our Lord Jesus Christ and the father is said to oversee and
17:0017:00 - empower the results of those Ministries so God gives us the gift through that’s the Holy Spirit he empowers us God gives
17:1017:10 - us the ministry that’s the Lord Jesus Christ we share in his mission so just as Jesus Christ was sent into the World
17:1717:17 - by the father and he had the mission of living a perfect life and dying on the cross for our sins well so too each of
17:2417:24 - us is actually sent into this world with a job with a mission and once we uh become Believers once we are saved we
17:3217:32 - are supposed to grow into that mission we’re supposed to grow into the point of Ministry of doing what God wants us to
17:3817:38 - do here and Jesus Christ is the one who determines that for us and God also is the one who gives us the results and
17:4517:45 - that is the father all effects are part of the father’s perfect plan for all of human history
17:5217:52 - so aie you have additional points to make on this again it’s H yet well in this particular one people might stumble
18:0318:03 - over who is being I think the scriptures have covered that question about the differences and personalities and
18:1018:10 - whatnot but again we see that the three of them are involved even in the operation of the church so in our
18:2018:20 - individual salvation that each person is saved we see that they’re involed because it is it takes Jesus dying for
18:2718:27 - our sins for each of us to individually be saved but in the function of the body of Christ as an organization as an
18:3418:34 - organism that has many different parts we see it takes the three of them as well the spirit as you have said
18:4418:44 - providing each of us as a definite um specific function in the church the Lord Jesus himself assigning
18:5418:54 - us our specific roles the the places we fill in in the church and the father um bringing about as you said the
19:0519:05 - results in those things so that is to say um just as the three of them are I think that largely all of this is
19:1419:14 - telling us that the roles that the Trinity the persons of the Trinity play are roles that are involved in our
19:2419:24 - Salvation in our spiritual growth in our maturity and ultimately in the rewards that we get in other words you don’t
19:3219:32 - find them separating at any point such that in this place we would have the spirit and the son or the spirit and the
19:3919:39 - father or the father and the son or one uh with the others out of picture the three of them are working together in
19:4719:47 - everything from start to finish we see that in they’re working together they still maintain fact that
19:5519:55 - each of them is playing sort of a different role from the other as we said there will always be overlap there is
20:0220:02 - always overlap but in the end we still see sufficiently like in this place it’s pretty straightforward that one does
20:0820:08 - this another does that and the third does this which actually is a template for how the church itself functions the
20:1520:15 - pastor teacher does one thing the Evangelist does another the Apostle does another Prophet does another so in other
20:2220:22 - words we are the the would you say the antitype of what the Trinity itself is the Lord has
20:3120:31 - structured things to work the way that if you will he works so we we learn all of this from that
20:3920:39 - too that’s what I would say and I mean just to kind of tile this together when we talk about you know the
20:4820:48 - unity of the Trinity uh we we’ve emphasized this point right one in essence reiners one in essence this is
20:5520:55 - why everywhere you look as Audi said you can’t have one operating without the others now we struggle to understand
21:0321:03 - this as human beings because this is not how human beings work if I will something that that has propositionally
21:1021:10 - speaking has nothing to do with whether someone else wills it or not maybe they do maybe they agree with me maybe they
21:1421:14 - don’t right so in an organization even ones with perfect with that are supposed to have greater Unity than others so
21:2221:22 - let’s take the Church of Jesus Christ 1 Corinthians CH 12 we are supposed to be United as one body so if doing things
21:2921:29 - right as Christians we’re supposed to be a whole lot more united than most human institutions right how about marriage
21:3521:35 - that’s another one two become one flesh part of that is literal part of that is also metaphorical in that husband and
21:4321:43 - wife are supposed to be on the same on the same page so to speak right uh kind of plays a big part in raising children
21:5021:50 - you have to be on the same page for that but even in marriage husbands and wives they are not always in of them
21:5821:58 - might do something and the other one not have a part in you see what I’m saying it is not logically necessary for them
22:0422:04 - to be involved in that way in the same way that it is for the Trinity because the Trinity is One in essence um they
22:1222:12 - have perfect Unity of will human beings no matter how close you are with someone else never have perfect Unity of will so
22:1922:19 - I again we’ve been over all this before but all of this Builds on itself um and this is a point we’re going to keep
22:2622:26 - rehashing repeating as we go here is that everything that we’ve been talking about with the Trinity maybe it’s not
22:3222:32 - laid out in a nice bullet point list in the Bible but it is all there and it is just asserted Audie has made this point
22:4022:40 - before it it doesn’t argue for itself it just presents itself as true you know and that’s why we have to appreciate
22:4722:47 - these things the next passage we’re going to look at is in 2 Corinthians chap 13
22:5622:56 - verse 14 it says the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and The Fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with
23:0323:03 - you all so this is a benediction it is one of the last things in the letter here um if not the last I could go look
23:1223:12 - it up um but the point is is that this is Paul closing out his letter to the Corinthians uh with this sort of formula
23:2023:20 - and this actually shows up at the beginning and the end of many books in the New Testament mention all three
23:2623:26 - members of the Trinity right and so so here’s what ichus has to say about this um ichus says the Trinity is seen here
23:3223:32 - from the standpoint of Salvation before during and after the love of the father sends the son to die for sinful Mankind
23:4123:41 - and you might compare uh John 3:16 the traditional verse of the Gospel here for God so loved the world that he gave his
23:4923:49 - one and only son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life that verse is this idea of the
23:5623:56 - Father’s Love sending Jesus to die for our sins but the son is the one who actually does die for our sins it is his
24:0324:03 - sacrifice that reconciles us with the father by satisfying the requirements of the father’s righteousness and thus
24:0824:08 - providing Grace So salvation is free to us because the son paid for because of his sacrifice and the spirit is the one
24:1824:18 - who actually unites Us in fellowship with God uh after the father has accepted this offer of Grace based upon
24:2424:24 - Christ’s death and all of that again coming out of The Father’s Love in sending the son in the first place so uh
24:3324:33 - I mean everything that I just said is true you see that in this verse right but again AUD and I’ve been emphasizing
24:4024:40 - this you would be misguided in saying that for example the Lord Jesus Christ doesn’t love us right we said God is
24:4724:47 - love if you remember back to when we were discussing the perfect character of God God is good manifest in the world to
24:5424:54 - us as God is love all three members of the Trinity share the same essence God is love you know that’s what I think 1
25:0025:00 - John chapter 4 talks about this but in this specific way what we’re talking about in with regard to the roles of the
25:0825:08 - trinity in God’s plan it’s the Father’s Love For Us that that about the right way to play when he came up with his
25:1725:17 - plan that’s why he sent the son right um and this is where trying to squint too hard and to draw a neat little box it
25:2425:24 - doesn’t work super well because of the unity of the Trinity but the point is in the plan of the father he sent the son
25:3025:30 - the son is the one who acted who paid that sacrifice willingly submitted himself to the father’s will to pay for
25:3725:37 - sin upon the cross and the spirit is the one who not only resurrected Jesus Christ but also unites Us in fellowship
25:4425:44 - with God by indwelling us after all those things are true right and so the point is less that Jesus Christ doesn’t
25:5125:51 - love us or that we don’t have fellowship with Jesus Christ or whatever because we only have fellowship with the spirit the
25:5625:56 - point is that these are the ways in which the roles of God have manifested in God’s Redemptive purpose for
26:0326:03 - humankind a you have further points on this uh not much I think you really covered it all because again a
26:1326:13 - demonstration of how the three work together in any given thing so yes Grace that Jesus provided through
26:2126:21 - sacrifice he made the love that came up with the plan that required Jesus to make that sacrifice and the Fellowship
26:2826:28 - that the holy spirit makes possible or that he actually effects through that sacrifice so it’s um as you have said
26:3826:38 - again the three of them working together to realize any given thing so again and again that’s what we see the three of
26:4726:47 - them together to and so so that also sort of tells us what we want to know about the Trinity which is how they are
26:5626:56 - one even though though we keep seeing the separation of roles we keep seeing how they are one because they’re all
27:0327:03 - realizing the same thing that all three of them want and that is a critical thing they’re United in will and purpose
27:1127:11 - so even though they’re doing different things so to speak they’re all accomplishing one
27:1927:19 - thing and that’s just it right and that is the essence of what three in person one in essence means in practice right
27:2727:27 - as it as it describes God’s attitude towards us and how he acts towards us in the world um so uh just take a step back
27:3527:35 - um this is why the Trinity isn’t just academic to us right because understanding this is fundamental to
27:4327:43 - understanding how God relates to humanity is that all three members of the Trinity jointly act to redeem
27:5227:52 - mankind um they all have this purpose of of giving mankind this way to submit to God to to reclaim salvation after our
28:0328:03 - sin to prove to Satan that in fact God can redeem his sinful creatures all of those who choose to submit to him um
28:1128:11 - that’s all there and part of us understanding that properly as we ought to is understanding that this has always
28:1928:19 - been part of God’s plan and that’s all three members of the Trinity God is working in the world to affect this for
28:2628:26 - us Jesus paid for it the father father planned it from eternity past the spirit’s the one who who gives us Unity
28:3228:32 - with God after we believe but all of that is tied into the United will of God as the being with one Essence right
28:4128:41 - three persons acting in their various ways to affect the same goal is quite fundamental to properly understanding
28:4828:48 - the statement you know God works to redeem mankind right they’re all three integrally involved in that process um
28:5628:56 - yet they do different things right and that is what the Trinity means in essence next we’re going to be talking
29:0529:05 - about Ephesians chapter 3: 14-1 17 so I’m going to go ahead and read this passage and then I’m actually going to
29:1329:13 - go look at a place where we have previously discussed some of the interpretation of the verses here so
29:1929:19 - this passage Ephesians 3 picking up at verse 14 says for this reason I bow my knees to the father from whom his entire
29:2729:27 - family in heaven and on Earth has received its name that he may Grant you according to the riches of his glory to
29:3329:33 - be powerfully strengthened in your inner person through his spirit so that rooted and grounded in love Christ May dwell in
29:4129:41 - your hearts through faith so uh we’re not going to spend too much time on this but I have pulled up over here uh in a
29:4829:48 - separate tab uh this was a past lesson of our study uh the one titled all members of the Trinity are deity this is
29:5629:56 - one of the long videos actually and uh in the time stamps here you’ll see that about an hour and 20 some odd minutes in
30:0230:02 - we have a time stamp uh for a deeper dive into the interpretation of Ephesians 3: 14-15 and what we talked
30:1030:10 - about um in this past video and again you can go ahead and find this video in the playlist if you’re curious um as we
30:1730:17 - were discussing uh this word here every or the whole or entire is how Dr Lil translated it in this which this
30:2630:26 - translation comes right off IUS here he translated it as his entire family well we were talking about the idea of how
30:3530:35 - all the entire family of God receives its name um from the father and we’re talking about what that means and the
30:4230:42 - distinction being that it’s it’s not so much every like every family as in all the families or all the the last names
30:4930:49 - of a group of people so to speak is that the entire body of Christ we get its name you know we are are members of
30:5930:59 - the think about I’m not being very elegant here um we derive our identity through the father right um he is the
31:0731:07 - authority figure the head of our family so to speak and that’s why we are Christians we get our identity through
31:1431:14 - the head of the family and that’s God so any case not to get off topic there just thought I would pull up this cross
31:2031:20 - reference if people want to go read a little bit more or not read listen to a little bit more about these verses here
31:2731:27 - here in Ephesians CH 3: 14 and following we did actually spend a good bit of time discussing them uh in that previous
31:3431:34 - segment but now on to how we’re going to be using these verses in our present discussion so uh in talking about how
31:4331:43 - this verse helps illuminate the roles of the Trinity that’s kind of the point of this section we’re going through with
31:5131:51 - all of these new testament passages we’re talking about uh we can see that the father is the authority figure to
31:5731:57 - whom Paul prayed so Paul is the writer of Ephesians here Paul bows his knees to the father and
32:0332:03 - the father is the one from whom the entire family in heaven and on Earth has received its name uh in order that
32:1032:10 - purpose Clause that God May Grant to you according to the riches of his glory to be strengthened in your inner person and
32:2032:20 - then we see the spirits role come into this we may be strengthened through the spirit of God uh through the Holy Spirit
32:2832:28 - and then the object of our prayer is Christ so that we may be uh to sorry so that we may grow to be more like Jesus
32:3832:38 - Christ and improve in our relationship with him in every way and again we pray to the father to be strengthened through
32:4632:46 - the spirit that we may become more like our role model our elder brother in the faith Jesus Christ who is the first born
32:5332:53 - in Resurrection we might say and so again we see all of the roles of God mapped out here the father is the
33:0133:01 - authority figure uh the one who um has the power and the authority to Grant the request that we ask the spirit is the
33:0933:09 - empowerer the Unseen one who who empowers us both to make our good choices for God and also restrain sin in
33:1733:17 - the world here specifically we’re seeing his his empowering role um in the lives of us as Believers and then Christ is
33:2433:24 - the visible member of the Trinity the one who we look to are the one who we can see who is accessible to us and
33:3233:32 - because we can see him we try to emulate him he is the object that we kind of uh put our put our eyes upon we fix our
33:3933:39 - gaze upon as we kind of try to become the people that God wants us to be and so you can still see all three roles in
33:4533:45 - the Trinity working out according to the names or the analogies that we’ve been discussing for the roles um and that has
33:5233:52 - kind of been uh the whole purpose here and again um we’ll continue to emphasize that these are analogies the roles are
34:0034:00 - supposed to help us understand the function of the members of God in the Trinity and so I think this passage just
34:0734:07 - like the last several we’ve been looking at give us that clear sense of the division of labor if you will between
34:1334:13 - the three members of the Trinity Audi you have anything you want to kick in on this passage and the division among the
34:2234:22 - roles if you’re talking you’re muted oh I’m sorry about that I forgot that I actually muted myself so I said um not
34:2934:29 - really I don’t think I have anything to add to what you’ve said and it’s pretty much repeating how you know uh
34:3634:36 - everything functions within the Trinity so yeah carry on repetition uh just to be clear is not a bad thing here and um
34:4634:46 - if you recall back to some earlier lessons I’m trying to think about how to phrase this this idea that the Trinity
34:5134:51 - is not taught in the Bible I I don’t know if you’ve ever heard someone say something like that um word is not used
34:5834:58 - of course that is a label we came up for the concept but this idea just to hammer that point home again is that it’s all
35:0635:06 - over the place in the Bible um you just have to you know look and and put on your thinking cap a bit and you’ll see
35:1435:14 - that uh and again this is specifically New Testament passages with that progressive revelation that God has seen
35:2135:21 - fit to reveal his Triune nature to us it’s all over the place in the New Testament and that’s why we’re going
35:2635:26 - through the bother even if it may seem a little bit repetitive to look at all of these different verses is just to show
35:3235:32 - that it is really permeates the entire fabric of the New Testament this teaching does and so for that reason we
35:3935:39 - can have full and sure confidence in it we don’t need to be I don’t know troubled by the fact that the Bible
35:4535:45 - doesn’t lay it out in what we might call A A scientific accounting of things because the Trinity is clearly taught in
35:5335:53 - how the Bible talks about God and that’s all we need to care about really um so with that we’ll move on to the next
36:0436:04 - passage now we’re going to talk about Ephesians chapter 4: 4-6 so uh one chapter pass what we were just talking
36:1336:13 - about in Ephesians 3 we have Ephesians 4 picking up at verse 4 says there is one body and one Spirit just as when you
36:2136:21 - were called it was in one hope that you were called there is one Lord Jesus Christ Christ One Faith one baptism
36:3036:30 - there is one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all so uh In this passage we kind of have a
36:3936:39 - summary of what we could call the unity of the faith uh it’s I mentioned in the previous verse here in Ephesians 4 so
36:4636:46 - Ephesians 4:3 talks about being diligent to preserve the unity of the spirit in the bond of Peace um so in this overview
36:5436:54 - here well what does that mean exactly we see the unity of all of these things this this constant repetition of the
37:0137:01 - word one so Greek has a word for one just how we do in English as in one as opposed to two right or three or four or
37:1137:11 - what have you um but you can see the unity that’s being emphasized here so there’s one body one Spirit one hope one
37:1837:18 - Lord One Faith one baptism one God and Father of all right that’s a lot of repetition of that word and so it hits
37:2637:26 - just as hard in Greek as it does in English here um some of these things are what we would call the most important
37:3337:33 - common factors of the Christian faith right so um I should note as we talk here so those of us who follow ichus
37:4237:42 - would know that this one baptism here we are referring to us becoming members of the body of Christ what we would term
37:5037:50 - spiritual baptism into the person of God that’s how we would translate the Great Commission in Matthew chapter 28 um we
37:5737:57 - are baptized into the person of God the father and God the son and God the Holy Spirit um and that’s different than a
38:0538:05 - ritual of water baptism um we are talking about becoming unified with God and in fact that completely fits into
38:1338:13 - the purpose of this verse talking about the unity we have right um so just get that out of the way in our
38:2038:20 - interpretation those of us who follow ichus we take this as the baptism uh in a spiritual sense making us with God
38:2838:28 - becoming indwelt by the Holy Spirit doesn’t have anything to do with water per se that’s different than how many
38:3438:34 - other people take it of course but the unity that we’re talking about here you see all of these factors come together
38:3938:39 - there’s one body of Christ one Spirit one Lord Jesus Christ one faith that is Faith in Jesus Christ that saves us and
38:4938:49 - one God and Father of all right um You can see the unity in all of this here so even in this though we’re still kind of
38:5738:57 - showing uh the difference in the roles in the Trinity so the holy spirit’s role is in bringing us into the body of
39:0539:05 - Christ through his baptizing of us into Christ right and so that’s what we were just talking about he is the one who
39:1239:12 - unifies us with the person of God we are indwell by the Holy Spirit and in that we become members of the body of Christ
39:2139:21 - um now we talked previously about how us being quote unquote United with God does not mean that we are I don’t know that
39:2839:28 - we somehow become him in a a Divine I don’t know ontological sense you know the fact that we are quote unquote
39:3539:35 - partakers of the Divine Essence doesn’t mean that we like are God right that we are united with God does not mean that
39:4139:41 - we become God in the problematic sense but the point is the holy spirit connects us to God we have perfect
39:4839:48 - fellowship and unity with him through the Holy Spirit um and then we have hope in the resurrection through Jesus Christ
39:5639:56 - why does that related to Jesus Christ well because Jesus Christ was the one who was resurrected um he is that one we
40:0340:03 - look to our role model but also prove positive that God does resurrect us right um and so for anyone who would
40:1140:11 - doubt the resurrection well Jesus Christ is living proof that God does raise us from the dead we have that hope through
40:1940:19 - the resurrection of Jesus Christ um but of course Jesus is also our role model as our object of Faith the one we
40:2740:27 - believe in right that’s where faith comes in here right we believe in Jesus Christ both who he was and what he did
40:3440:34 - for us that is what we would consider the Core Essence of the Gospel message that he was both God and man came down
40:4040:40 - to take human sin upon his shoulders that we might be reconciled to God that is what we have faith in but that is
40:4740:47 - fundamentally targeted at Jesus Christ um and then uh we of course enter into Union with him and the father you know
40:5640:56 - God generally through that spiritual baptism again cross reference that passage in Matthew 28 Great Commission
41:0341:03 - we are united with all three persons of the Trinity right they are all God we become um United with the essence of God
41:1141:11 - which is something they all share three person’s one Essence and then finally as to the father um the father’s role is
41:2041:20 - that of this unifying love he knits his family of Believers together in every way that is kind of what this this
41:2841:28 - uh think about this phrasing here would get at this is overall and through all and in all God is the one weaving
41:3541:35 - everything together in this perfect tapestry this perfect fabric to uh unite us not only with each other but also
41:4241:42 - with him with God in Triune three persons um and so God’s plan is what weaves that tapestry together and so you
41:5241:52 - can see all three roles working together to perfectly realize our salvation and Redemption and we’ve been over this
41:5941:59 - right every single time we have God’s plan for Humanity worked out him saving us out of our wretched State and
42:0642:06 - bringing us into fellowship with him all three members of the Trinity are involved in the execution of that um and
42:1242:12 - they have different things that they do different focuses if you will but they all are united in will in making this
42:1942:19 - come about for us so a you have anything you want to add here about this passage in Ephesians chapter 4
42:2842:28 - um as you said it’s it’s again just how all three of them have how they’re working can you hear me yeah I can hear
42:4042:40 - you okay okay okay so um it’s how it the I think that just as you said it’s how the three of them again work together in
42:5442:54 - accomplishing one thing um the father has this role where he is the one recognized as God and the spir the
43:0443:04 - Lord Jesus has seen as the object of what the father is actually accomplishing and the spirit is the
43:1043:10 - empowerer in this particular um uh situation it is Jesus as you have said who is associated with the faith we
43:2043:20 - also see that it is in being made one with him that we are being made one with the Trinity so um I think the way that
43:2843:28 - Professor Robert would put that is that uh because we’re baptized into Jesus that is that the spirit makes us one
43:3643:36 - with him and makes us one through him with the Trinity as well and may be remembering that a little bit um all
43:4643:46 - right not exactly the way that he puts it but it it’s it’s essentially as you said and like you said before repetition
43:5443:54 - is exactly good but you know this is really the same thing over and over again um I think that here the comments
44:0244:02 - I was making earlier you know could come to B we’re learning about this not because we need to see the distinctions
44:0944:09 - between what the father does what the spirit does what the Lord Jesus does that’s not the point really what we’re
44:1644:16 - seeing is that the three of them are intimately involved in actually realizing this objective that they have
44:2544:25 - and that um uh they they they might have different roles they do have different roles in
44:3144:31 - realizing it that’s why we said that there are different roles in Trinity but the main point in the end is
44:4044:40 - that we know this so that we have confidence in what is being done that it is actually God who is involved from
44:4944:49 - start to finish it is God who conceptualized the plan of of Salvation the plan of
44:5644:56 - creation the of the church whatever you want to call it his plan he conceptualized the the working out of
45:0445:04 - that plan that the things that are done toward realizing that plan is still him it is still God who is doing it even
45:1145:11 - though it is the son that we see now in View and the means by which it is being accomplished the power that makes it
45:2045:20 - happen the one who is making sure that every little bit everything that is involved even like uh brother
45:2745:27 - would say not even the the slightest swerve of the farthest Quark of gluon or whatever what whatever particle um
45:3745:37 - subatomic particle you could think of the smallest the least consequential the the person who is
45:4345:43 - managing every single detail of God’s plan to realize it is still God himself except this time it’s the spirit so from
45:5245:52 - start to finish it’s all God if the church is going to work it’s God God conceptualized the church he he he
45:5945:59 - brought the church about through Christ the sacrifice on the cross and the spirit is the one who is empowering the
46:0746:07 - church to function as the church so all through we see that this is still the spir the the the Trinity working
46:1546:15 - everything out and we should emphasize as well that God doesn’t just do this willy-nilly out of I don’t know some
46:2346:23 - fancy um but there are reasons why the Trinity has organized their Redemptive plan for human history in the way that
46:3146:31 - they have um so I pulled up a passage that came to mind here from me in Hebrews chapter 4 that talks about Jesus
46:3746:37 - as the great high priest he understands us uh uh Hebrews 4:15 says we do not have a high priest who is unable to
46:4546:45 - empathize with our weaknesses but we have one who’s been tempted in every way just as we are yet he did not sin
46:5146:51 - therefore on account of that that is verse 16 let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence because
46:5946:59 - we know that Jesus is like us he understands us he took on human flesh and because of that because of this
47:0647:06 - particular role that the son in the Trinity adopted it’s for our benefit because in being a a human being which
47:1547:15 - as we’ve talked about before in terms of soteriology in terms of how we are saved it was necessary that Jesus be both
47:2147:21 - human and God uh both God and man to pay for our sins upon the cross that was a necessary part of our Redemption but
47:2947:29 - also just because it means that he understands us God has a perfect plan and part of that is the roles that the
47:3847:38 - people in the Trinity play so how about the Holy Spirit as the comforter right as the one who indwells us who
47:4647:46 - understands what we what we mean when we pray even if we can’t articulate it that’s uh the sort of Latter verses in
47:5347:53 - Romans chapter 8 talk about the spirit interceding for us well we have that because God has
47:5947:59 - planned that for us because the Holy Spirit indwelling us part of his role is granting us that ability to call out to
48:0848:08 - the father even if we can’t articulate it and all of these things are perfectly accounted for in God’s plan so these
48:1448:14 - rules are not random it’s not accidental but God is working it all out perfectly so that his plan might be fulfilled
48:2348:23 - um so I don’t know exactly where I was going with that I was just kind of riffing on what you said
48:2748:27 - um the reason why we stud this is because they are all present and it just helps us understand what God is doing
48:3448:34 - how he relates to us um not so much like you said to draw distinctions between the members of the Trinity but
48:4048:40 - understand how God is working out his plan to save us um yes how how in how involved he is um earlier before we came
48:5048:50 - back into the recording question had been asked about how to know when um it is
48:5748:57 - Jesus speaking when it is the father speaking when it is Spirit speaking and so on and so forth these distinctions
49:0249:02 - were not actually made uh or particularly they weren’t in view in the Old Testament so the question why are
49:1049:10 - they now in view in the New Testament can partly and even satisfyingly be answered with God wants us to know him
49:1849:18 - you know that he is a trinity and these are the persons of the Trinity yes that’s true but even more than that it’s
49:2449:24 - just the confidence that we get from who is actually doing the thing that we need done to be saved it is God
49:3649:36 - who conceptualized the Plan of Salvation for example the father did it is God the
49:4349:43 - Father the person who came and paid the price for that salvation is God but the son the person who who worked out all of
49:5349:53 - that who empowered it to make sure that it all worked out because for example when the when the sun was going to the
49:5749:57 - Cross he was not leaning on his deity to do anything so who made made it all possible it was God the spirit this time
50:0850:08 - so it’s like just as you have confidence because you know the person who designed the car you’re using or built the
50:1550:15 - whatever it is you just because you know the Craftsman you know the engineer you know the person who and you have
50:2150:21 - confidence in their skill that’s why you use whatever it is they created likewise the that you know that it is God who is
50:2850:28 - behind all of this consider another thing that people frequently stumble all over we struggling with this matter of
50:3650:36 - sanctification you are constantly striving against sin and sometimes your your strength is broken but then you
50:4350:43 - recall that it is God who works in you both to Will and to do of his good pleasure it is God that’s the holy
50:5150:51 - spirit in you so the person you’re counting on in order to win your fight against sin is still God it doesn’t have
50:5950:59 - to be the father who is seated in heaven it is the spirit who is resident inside of you so you see all of it is to build
51:1051:10 - our confidence we’re not told about the Trinity just so we can know about the distinctions in their
51:1651:16 - roles and all of that stuff it is to tell us that in no part of anything God is doing has he left anything to chance
51:2651:26 - or entrusted it to human beings who cannot be trusted or even dedicated delegated any of it to the angels it’s
51:3451:34 - him working it all out from start to finish he does use the Angels he does use human beings he uses the world
51:4051:40 - around us but it is him doing it all from beginning to the end that’s to build our confidence to tell us that he
51:4951:49 - was well prepared before he even made us that’s um that’s what I would say yeah um I did
51:5651:56 - pull up just one verse in the Old Testament you know this who do we know who’s how do we know who’s talking here
52:0252:02 - right this when the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah in verse four of the book of Jeremiah Jeremiah 1 verse4 well
52:0952:09 - who is it that’s talking here is the father or the son where we were going with this is that you can have these
52:1452:14 - sorts of conversations not exactly a bad question it’s just the point of all of this isn’t to talk about
52:2152:21 - micromanaging I don’t know like who said what when and like come up with a a strict formal accounting of things so
52:2852:28 - much as emphasizing that God has this plan that he’s working throughout all of human history and everything has been
52:3652:36 - perfectly accounted for like AI has pointed out and that’s the confidence we have right
52:4252:42 - um so yeah I think that’s a good place to cut this one next we’re going to talk about First
52:5252:52 - Peter chapter 1 veres 1-2 and so that Passage says Peter an apostle of Jesus Christ to those who though Outcast
53:0153:01 - dispersed through Pontius galatia caposa Asia and bethenia were yet selected in the for knowledge of God the Father by
53:0953:09 - means of the holy spirit’s consecration for The Obedience in and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ now those of
53:1753:17 - you who have read uh the Peter series on a this I’m going go pull that up in a second yeah this verse you have seen
53:2453:24 - this one a lot because um this series that ichus has on the Peter series I would say at least the first few lessons
53:3153:31 - all focus on different facets of what this verse is getting at this opening verse in First Peter um so Peter tells
53:4053:40 - us that we Believers are elected to eternal life according to the father’s Plan of Salvation and not to get off on
53:4753:47 - a side tangent that doesn’t mean that God drags us Kicking and Screaming it means that God knows who will choose him
53:5453:54 - we are elect on account of of God’s for knowledge of our choice um but God planned everything in order to give us
54:0254:02 - that choice to begin with right Free Will depends upon the Divine decrees that that make everything in the world
54:0954:09 - tick if you will um so we are elected uh elected to eternal life according to the father’s Plan of Salvation the holy
54:1754:17 - spirit’s implementation of salvation for us when we believe so that is us becoming United with God through the
54:2354:23 - indwelling of the holy spirit that happens the point that we have faith right so when we have faith in God um we
54:3154:31 - become born again that is the language that the Bible uses in other places we become indwelled by the Holy Spirit we
54:3854:38 - put off the old man and put on the new man um and so the holy spirit is the one who affects that change within us when
54:4554:45 - he comes to indwell us and um and change us from the inside out and the son’s work of Salvation that is what we put
54:5354:53 - our faith in The Obedience in and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ based upon what the son did for us on
54:5954:59 - the cross that is the payment through which we have our Salvation um and so the father’s plan the holy spirit’s
55:0755:07 - implementation and empowering and the son’s work um as the visible the one who we see um he’s the one who did the thing
55:1655:16 - so to speak right he is the one who went to the cross for us um the one whose work we can see before our eyes or at
55:2455:24 - least written in the words of scripture um well this is again that three-fold division of labor that we see of the
55:3155:31 - Trinity working out um our Salvation um with each of them perfectly fulfilling the roles that they have set out to fill
55:4055:40 - so Audi you have more to say on this verse or any of what I mean it’s the same stuff again
55:5055:50 - but yeah exactly it’s it’s the same stuff this one I think is speaking
56:0056:00 - again starts you’re a a bit far away from the mic sounds like you maybe move a little
56:0756:07 - closer or okay okay is this any better a little bit yeah okay I said this this one is you
56:1756:17 - know speaking more directly again to the the plan that God um uh instituted on is for knowledge is
56:2856:28 - realizing um by means of the Holy Spirit and through what Jesus did on the cross so it’s it’s the same thing I don’t
56:3956:39 - think I really have to add to it you’re exactly no and we sh you know um because again it’s just the point being hammered
56:4956:49 - over and over and over again and I should also I just throw in here a not that we’ll do it for every single
56:5456:54 - passage we read but the roles do overlap right um as in the spirit in restraining influence is quote unquote doing
57:0357:03 - something right we say it’s not just the son who does work as if the father and the spirit don’t do anything right and
57:0957:09 - it’s not as if Jesus didn’t have the will and intentions I he submitted himself to the father’s will right but
57:1757:17 - his will was in alignment with the father’s will it’s not that he didn’t have will right see what I’m saying um
57:2257:22 - so we should have pushed this past those bounds that are proper um we’ve talked about that before analogies are just
57:2957:29 - analogies but also when it comes to this um the roles that they adopt the lines can be blurry and that you know that’s
57:3757:37 - not a bad thing it’s just these are the ways in which God has seen fit to explain himself to us that is the
57:4457:44 - fundamental purpose of these analogies in the Trinity is to help us better understand him and so for that reason we
57:5057:50 - don’t get to go saying well a sun wouldn’t act in this way so therefore God’s not you know the sun is not really
57:5557:55 - a sun or whatever see what I’m saying like it’s supposed to help us understand the roles that the members of the
58:0058:00 - Trinity have adopted um but in that as we’ve just been saying all of these roles are consistent the father is the
58:0858:08 - planner and the architect the one who has for knowledge and decrees things the spirit as the empower the one who
58:1458:14 - implements and the son as the one who came to die for us who implemented salvation through his death upon the
58:2158:21 - cross all of these things consistent across the verses that we been talking
58:2958:29 - about finally last verse we’re going to be going over here in this section talking about New Testament passages
58:3658:36 - that kind of help illuminate the roles in the Trinity we’re going to be talking about Revelation chapter 1 verses 4-6
58:4358:43 - that passage says grace to you and peace from the one who is and was and is coming and from the seven spirits which
58:5158:51 - are before his throne and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of
58:5758:57 - the kings of the earth so this is sort of John’s salutation um yeah following in kind of a similar form here from this
59:0759:07 - one that we just talked about in First Peter and then we kind of looked at a benediction here um in 2 Corinthians uh
59:1459:14 - so kind of the ending of a letter rather than the beginning that also mentions all three people in the Trinity right
59:1959:19 - but here in uh The Book of Revelation this is the Apostle John writing um the father’s ET eternity and um his imminent
59:2959:29 - taking of possession of the devil’s World um this one I just take a step back a little bit this one um I was
59:3559:35 - reading over this before the video today and I was like this one is worded a little bit differently you might have to
59:4259:42 - squint at it a little bit to see how we are kind of connecting this to the uh the roles that we’ve been talking about
59:5059:50 - the the things that each of the members of the Trin do but we’re saying that the father is going to um imminently take
59:5759:57 - possession of the devil’s World by that we mean he’s going to rule over it with authority um but that won’t come
01:00:0401:00:04 - completely until the new Heavens the new Earth right but um the spirit is kind of supervising the devil’s world he is um
01:00:1101:00:11 - restraining the influence of evil nothing happens except that which God allows and so we have a couple
01:00:1701:00:17 - references here um and so it says the seven spirits of God again compare seven spirits here in Revelation chapter 1 and
01:00:2501:00:25 - chapter 5 are said to be sent out into all the Earth right the spirit has this restraining influence we’ve talked about
01:00:3101:00:31 - this when the Restraint of the spirit is removed um as I think second Thessalonians talks about um lawlessness
01:00:3801:00:38 - will abound across the world um and so the Restraint of the Holy Spirit here um uh he is the one restraining evil in
01:00:4901:00:49 - the world who is basically keeping everything in check and then the son through his victory on the cross has
01:00:5801:00:58 - Victory and Conquest over the devil’s World um and so you can kind of see um the father as the one with authority the
01:01:0501:01:05 - spirit is the one with that mission of empowerment and and restraint you know working behind the scenes in an unseen
01:01:1201:01:12 - capacity and the son as the agent the one who acts they’re all still here but uh the way that ikus has chosen to focus
01:01:2001:01:20 - on this specific verse is kind of in relationship to the world right we say this world um Satan’s World system this
01:01:2901:01:29 - Fallen Cosmos if you want to use the Greek word for World um all of this is kind of currently under Satan’s control
01:01:3601:01:36 - he has usurped rulership over the world but he didn’t do that because God lost a battle or something like that it’s
01:01:4301:01:43 - because God let him God gave him the Reigns to test humanity and that’s why we are here as humans to choose for or
01:01:5201:01:52 - against God that’s why God allows Satan to Run the World system that he does and to manipulate uh governments
01:02:0001:02:00 - corporations culture media you name it um to kind of try to turn us away from him is to give us that true test of
01:02:0901:02:09 - faith so that those who choose for him choose of their own will that’s why we are here as humans um but ikus kind of
01:02:1701:02:17 - relates this verse to the idea of the relationship that the members have towards the devil’s world so the father
01:02:2301:02:23 - will take possession of it right after Jesus has made his enemies a foot stol unto him right we talk about the
01:02:2901:02:29 - Millennium coming when Jesus will reign from Jerusalem and there will be peace like never before upon the Earth um this
01:02:3701:02:37 - is preparation for the new heavens and the new Earth when the father will dwell with us but the spirit’s the one who
01:02:4301:02:43 - controls what can and cannot happen who restrains Satan’s influence from overstepping the balance that God allows
01:02:4901:02:49 - and of course um Satan is already positionally defeated um in the prophecy in Genesis you know he will strike your
01:02:5601:02:56 - heel and you will crush his head well that head crushing so to speak happened on the cross Jesus defeated death once
01:03:0301:03:03 - for all human sin was paid for Satan has no power over us so long as we believe in Jesus Christ um so you can still see
01:03:1201:03:12 - all of the roles in play here um even when it comes to our understanding of how God relates to this present creation
01:03:1901:03:19 - that will be destroyed and recreated without sin um once the end of the ages has come upon us but I don’t think um
01:03:2801:03:28 - this is any different than what we’re saying it’s just perhaps worded in a way that is a bit distinct from um some of
01:03:3401:03:34 - the other passages we’ve talked about so a you have anything you want to go on um this specific passage here if you’re
01:03:4001:03:40 - talking you’re muted okay yeah um Grace do you can you hear me yeah I
01:03:4601:03:46 - can hear you can you hear me okay so um I I don’t think there’s uh terribly much much to say it’s not I
01:03:5701:03:57 - don’t think this is more this is particularly okay so you have a greeting coming from the significance of what is
01:04:0201:04:02 - about to happen in the letter this this disc significant that it’s the three members
01:04:0801:04:08 - of the Trinity giving that greting um and of course the one who is and was and is coming is the
01:04:1701:04:17 - father earlier this today when we were having our Bible study this morning um we had called was to talk about the fact
01:04:2701:04:27 - that the father is sort of himself imposed Exile in the third heaven waiting so
01:04:3401:04:34 - that he can return to it that’s what this is actually speaking to and knowing the Book of Revelation this is a very
01:04:4101:04:41 - very uh significant statement to make that the the the the the position that the father is taking in the Trinity is
01:04:5201:04:52 - that he is the god who had to lead the creation that he made because of the would have had to
01:05:0001:05:00 - destroy the rebels and all the things that they had messed up so creation would not have survived him staying
01:05:0601:05:06 - because of love for his creation he rather went into watch you might fall self-imposed Exile until his
01:05:1301:05:13 - creation has been rescued from all the rebel all the rebellion in it has been cleansed of all the rebellion in it the
01:05:2101:05:21 - seven spirits um just as just as it’s it’s precisely what uh what um Professor Robert was talking about
01:05:3201:05:32 - the supervision of the devil’s world the idea too is also that the this this whole business of the return of the
01:05:4201:05:42 - father to the creation that he made is being realized through the energy and the activity of the spirit in the world
01:05:5001:05:50 - the seven Ministries so to speak that here to realize the end of all that rebellion
01:05:5801:05:58 - and the realization of the family of God the Eternal family of God to which he will return in the new universe that
01:06:0601:06:06 - will be made and the Lord Jesus is the one whose sacrifice makes all of that possible so again even if we’re not
01:06:1801:06:18 - looking at this strictly in terms of roles we’re still seeing that the Trinity is engaged in this One goal of
01:06:2701:06:27 - rescuing creation from The Madness of Satan and the rebels that that have joined him
01:06:3401:06:34 - and reinstituting that family ideal that the father started out with and meant to
01:06:4401:06:44 - have in the end so that’s that’s um what we are seeing here again I think now for those of you who do read
01:06:5401:06:54 - IUS uh a lot of what we would talk about God’s purposes in leaving the world in a
01:07:0101:07:01 - fallen State a lot of this gets to that initial series on ichus the satanic Rebellion the precursor to um the series
01:07:0901:07:09 - on eschatology here in Revelation does talk about how God has allowed uh this rebellion of Satan that is ongoing we
01:07:1901:07:19 - are in the midst of it this battlefield that we go through um for his purpose he doesn’t allow it because he couldn’t
01:07:2601:07:26 - solve it today right this instant just with the snap of his fingers but because it is part of his his will part of his
01:07:3301:07:33 - plan um and so this business with God’s relationship to the devil’s world and to the rebellion of Satan that is ongoing
01:07:4201:07:42 - discussed in the satanic Rebellion series and of course how all of this will come to an end discussed in the
01:07:4801:07:48 - coming tribulation Series onic this um so that is not only the seven years of the tribulation but also the Millennium
01:07:5401:07:54 - and then the white throne judgment after the end of human history and then the uh when the new heavens and the new Earth
01:08:0001:08:00 - are made and Jerusalem descends that all covered in the coming tribulation so this idea of the devil’s world coming up
01:08:0701:08:07 - here uh kind of has interplay with what I would call the the great things of human history the why are we here what
01:08:1501:08:15 - is creation how is creation operating what will happen to Creation in the end all of that is kind of what this is
01:08:2201:08:22 - getting at so think big picture um but big picture uh so as narrow as our salvation and Redemption for each one of
01:08:3001:08:30 - us as individuals and to as wide a scale as the entire fate of this present Cosmos God in Triune person in Triune
01:08:4101:08:41 - nature is in control of it all working all of it out for his purpose purpose for his perfect purposes um and so
01:08:4901:08:49 - that’s all we have to keep in mind um even when we talk about the world itself and this present universe corrup
01:08:5501:08:55 - corupted by sin and Rebellion God is working in this according to the division between the roles that we have
01:09:0201:09:02 - just gone over in perfect Unity to bring about his purpose the restoration of this universe once all of the Rebellion
01:09:1101:09:11 - has been put down uh Jesus has already won on the cross but after the culmination of human history once all of
01:09:1801:09:18 - the Fallen Angels have been replaced and the double portion the so-called friends of the Bride in Millennium uh God will
01:09:2501:09:25 - close this chapter of human history and his family will be complete all of that is being worked out according to God’s
01:09:3201:09:32 - plan um so just to bring us full circle this is why we talk about the Trinity everything in the universe everything
01:09:4001:09:40 - that we learn and teach and believe about God ties back to what he is planning for us um and how he is working
01:09:4701:09:47 - out that plan uh throughout the world and so this applies to the world as a whole as what we’ve just talked aled
01:09:5501:09:55 - about has been doing just as much as it applies uh to us as individuals or even us as the corporate Body of Christ um
01:10:0201:10:02 - you might think of like Ephesians chapter 4 1 Corinthians chapter 12 us as the body of Christ in the world well it
01:10:0801:10:08 - applies to us as individuals to us as the collective Body of Christ the community of Believers but it applies to
01:10:1401:10:14 - the world as well um God’s perfect plan worked out by all three members will be done according to his will perfectly um
01:10:2501:10:25 - nothing can happen except that which God has ordained um and so that’s kind of where we’re going to wrap this um we’ll
01:10:3201:10:32 - go back through uh the passages we’ve talked about here in just a sec but that is the conclusion to end on here is that
01:10:3901:10:39 - all of these passages that we’ve been talking about um in the New Testament point us right back to the functioning
01:10:4601:10:46 - of the Trinity and how all three members of the trinity in their roles point us to God’s complete control over
01:10:5401:10:54 - everything in the Universe I’m just going to well not so much to say uh by way of
01:11:0301:11:03 - outro here um these are all of the passages that we’ve gone over in discussing how the New Testament talks
01:11:1001:11:10 - about the roles of the Trinity so Matthew chapter 3: 16-17 John Chapter 14 verse 16 1
01:11:1901:11:19 - Corinthians CH 12: 4-6 1 Corin 2 Corinthians chapter 13 verse4 Ephesians CH 3:
01:11:2701:11:27 - 14-17 Ephesians CH 4: 4-6 1 Peter CH 1: 1-2 and Revelation 1 veres 4-6 and to be clear there are probably more verses
01:11:4001:11:40 - that we could um find to also be discussing the same points this isn’t meant to be completely comprehensive or
01:11:4801:11:48 - exhaustive but all of these verses help us get a better understanding of the roles of the trinity in in God’s plan
01:11:5601:11:56 - for Humanity and the World At Large and so that’s kind of been our purpose in going over all of these verses here
Trinity Roles as Demonstrated in Gods Plan for Human History
Video
Summary
The best way to get an understanding of how the three members of the Trinity work together in perfect unity to establish their shared Will (despite their different roles) is to go through some examples. The principle is true generally, but by examining the the roles taken by the Trinity in several specific areas, we can come to get a better view of how this concept actually works in practice. The roles the Trinity chose to adopt do not restrict God; rather, they are labels given to us to help us better conceptualize Him, given the confines of our limited human understanding.
Timestamps
0:000:00 - Intro and outline
02:3102:31 - Overview
11:3411:34 - A non-exhaustive list of examples
13:2413:24 - The Plan of God Generally
15:5015:50 - Creation of the World
33:4533:45 - Revelation of the Word
41:1541:15 - Christ’s 1st Advent
45:0145:01 - The Victory of Salvation
53:1753:17 - Reconciliation of the Believer
56:5456:54 - Regeneration of the Believer
01:09:0201:09:02 - Walk of the Believer
01:30:5001:30:50 - Virtues of the Believer
01:50:4601:50:46 - Spiritual Gifts of the Believer
01:58:0401:58:04 - Prayers of the Believer
02:10:2902:10:29 - Caveats
02:26:0102:26:01 - Summary and outro
Content
(Derived from https://ichthys.com/1Theo.htm)
Overview
When we are face to face with God, we shall “know even as we are known” (1Cor.13:12). Until that time, our understanding of God in three persons is essentially dependent upon the way the Bible reveals the Trinity in the process of carrying out God’s plan for human history. In the following sections, we will briefly be examining the different roles taken by the Trinity in several aspects of administering that plan.
A non-exhaustive list of examples
There are more things that could be discussed than the few cases we will be going over here. Even with just a few examples, though, it should be clear how the working out of God’s plan for human history helps us understand the roles that the members of the Trinity have adopted.
The Plan of God Generally
Authorized by the Will of the Father (Eph.1:11; Rev.4:11), executed by the Word, the Son (Heb.1:2-3; Jn.1:1-3), administered through the Wisdom and power of the Spirit (Is.11:2; Zech.4:6).
Creation of the World
Directed by the Father (Gen.1:1; 1:3; Rev.4:11), carried out by the Son (1Cor.8:6; Col.1:16; Heb.1:2), empowered by the Spirit (Ps.33:6b; Prov.8:27-31).
Revelation of the Word
The Father expresses the Word (Is.55:11; also Is.40:8; 45:23), Christ is the Word (Jn.1:1-3; Heb.1:3), the Holy Spirit reveals the Word (1Cor.2:10-16).
Christ’s 1st Advent
Christ is sent by the Father (Heb.10:7), conceived (Matt.1:20), led (Matt.4:1), and empowered (Jn.3:34) by the Spirit as He carries out His ministry of self-sacrifice for our salvation.
The Victory of Salvation
(See Matt.12:20; Jn.16:33; 1Cor.15:54-57; Col.2:15; Rev.5:5)
The Father sends the Son on the mission (Jn.3:16), the Son accomplishes the mission (Jn.19:30; Heb.10:7), the Holy Spirit supports the mission (Matt.3:16; Jn.3:34).
Reconciliation of the Believer
Though estranged from the Father (Eph.4:18; Col.1:21; 1Jn.1:3 & 6), we are restored to fellowship with Him through the mediation of the Son by means of His sacrifice on the cross (Eph.2:12-13; Col.1:22; Heb.2:14-15), with the Spirit acting as the agent of our renewed fellowship (2Cor.13:14; Phil.2:1).
Regeneration of the Believer
The Father holds the key to eternal life (Jn.5:19-26; Rom.5:10-11), the Son purchased access to eternal life by His death for all who believe in Him (Acts 3:15; 20:28; 1Pet.1:18), the Spirit quickens or regenerates believers (Jn.3:5-8).
Walk of the Believer
The Father sets the standard of holiness (2Cor.7:1; 1Thes.4:3; Heb.12:14; 1Pet.1:16), the Son is the model (Matt.16:24; 1Cor.11:1; 1Thes.1:6), the Spirit provides the power to live as God would have us live (Rom.8:4; Gal.5:16).
Virtues of the Believer
The Father gives us the example of love (Jn.3:16; 1Jn.4:7-12) by sending His Son, who is the object our faith (Jn.14:6; Act 16:31), so that we look forward to our resurrection with a hope empowered by the Holy Spirit (Rom.15:13).
Spiritual Gifts of the Believer
Given by the Spirit, with specific ministries assigned by the Son and specific effects decreed by the Father (1Cor.12:4-6).
Prayers of the Believer
Offered to the Father (Matt.6:6), in the name of the Son (Jn.15:16; 16:23), accomplished in the power of the Spirit (Eph.6:18).
Caveats
These examples are given to help explain and expound the Trinity as the Bible reveals the doctrine, but the “division of labor” suggested by them is not to be taken as strict in all cases. In most of these (and other) joint actions of the Trinity, there is overlap and further subdivision of responsibilities which is often only hinted at in scripture.
To take the last case, for example, prayer in scripture is almost always addressed to the Father, but Jesus does say (in Jn.14:14), that if we ask Him anything in His name He will do it. A major controversy in the history of the church – one that split the east from the west – had to do with the “procession of the Spirit” and the question of whether the Father only (Jn.14:26) or the Father and the Son had sent Him (Jn.15:26). In some sense, both are right (the issue turns on the Father’s role as possessing original authority and the Son’s role receiving delegated authority – note the stress on role). Therefore, in our appreciation of the Trinity, we should be careful to restrict ourselves to learning what such scriptures actually teach us, and not build dispositive doctrinal principles (that is, those purporting to settle a matter for all time, with a sense of certainty and finality) solely on deductions stemming from them. For one thing is crystal clear from everything we may glean from scripture: the members of the Trinity are undeniably “one” in their unity and purpose.
Video/audio transcript
00:0000:00 - so picking up in our next section in the study here of Bible basics part one theology we are still talking about the
00:0700:07 - Trinity roles and now we’re going to be examining them as they’re demonstrated in God’s plan for human history so in
00:1500:15 - the last main lesson of this series we were discussing uh the Trinity roles as kind of seen in some specific New
00:2200:22 - Testament scriptures and now we’re going to kind of take a step back and look from a conceptual level at some of the
00:2800:28 - parts of God’s plan for human history and how the Trinity roles are present in making those uh those aspects of his
00:3600:36 - plan work out um so we’re just going to kind of talk about the the concept in general about how the roles can be seen
00:4400:44 - in the plan of God for human history that’s kind of how we understand God and we see how he works um in all of his
00:5000:50 - actions taken in regards to us uh so you know creating mankind saving mankind that sort of thing um and so here’s a
00:5700:57 - non-exhaustive list of examples that we’re be going through talking about the Trinity roles working out sorry working
01:0601:06 - within certain aspects of the plan of God so we’re going to kind of talk about the plan of God generally um then
01:1101:11 - creation of the world revelation of the word of God Christ’s first Advent the victory of Salvation that happened at
01:1901:19 - the cross reconciliation of the believer regeneration of the believer the Walk of the believer Virtues Of The Believer
01:2601:26 - spiritual gifts of the believer and then prayers of the believer and um again not meant to be an
01:3201:32 - exhaustive list here but just examples of uh how the three roles in the Trinity the three members of the Trinity adopt
01:4001:40 - their roles as it relates to God’s plan for human history and then finally we’re going to talk about caveats about more
01:4701:47 - or less how the roles are not uh how shall we say this like hard and fast rules as in it’s not so much an ability
01:5601:56 - thing with regards to the members of the Trinity acting the way they do as if they couldn’t act in any other way as it
02:0202:02 - is how they have chosen um the roles that they have adopted in how they relate to us in the plant and so um and
02:1102:11 - and basically how the lines get blurry in some places and um you know this isn’t so much as I say describing God’s
02:1602:16 - nature as a black and white um sort of God has to work this way or that way but this is how God has chosen to operate so
02:2602:26 - we’ll get to all that but this is the outline of the things that we are going to be going over this
02:3402:34 - week all right so the first uh main thing that we’re going to be talking about just kind of this overview idea of
02:4102:41 - what it means for the Trinity roles to show up in the plan of God for human history and so when we get to the other
02:4802:48 - side um after uh the heavens and the Earth have been remade the father is dwelling with us in the New Jerusalem
02:5602:56 - alongside the fellowship of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit and when we are all with one another all of the believing
03:0203:02 - people from all times and places in history well at that point we will know even as we are known that is the
03:0803:08 - terminology that scripture uses to describe this concept but until that time our understanding of God in three
03:1503:15 - persons is essentially dependent on the way that the Bible reveals the trinity in the process of carrying out God’s
03:2203:22 - plan for human history and so this actually shouldn’t come as any sort of large surprise to us um in as much as
03:3003:30 - we understand God from you know our interactions with him as humans and so uh the Angels existed with God prior to
03:4003:40 - this creation cycle we would say prior to the existence of mankind and so their understanding of God you know God has
03:4703:47 - always been trinitarian in nature he didn’t become trinitarian with the creation of man he has always been so um
03:5403:54 - it’s actually somewhat interesting to consider how their conception of God if you will might be colored by God’s
04:0104:01 - interactions with them just how our conception of God is colored by God’s interactions with us now of course we
04:0804:08 - have some inkling of how Angelic history went down and how it is still currently playing out and Satan’s Final
04:1504:15 - Destination in the Lake of Fire and things like that but the point for us as humans is that we understand God
04:2204:22 - primarily through how he interacts with us in material creation um and so we’re going to be going through us the roles
04:3104:31 - taken by the trinity in a few aspects of God administering his plan for human history um and so uh that isn’t I’m
04:4004:40 - trying to think about how to say this that isn’t just like his plan for people this is this universe this present
04:4604:46 - creation this Cosmos that we inhabit uh God’s plan for all of it uh so what we might think of material creation um so
04:5404:54 - human history is a good way to say that because as uh you know the creatures that God has created with free will we
05:0205:02 - are the subjects uh in creation who choose for and against God in a way that animals do not and so we are distinct
05:1005:10 - from them in that we have the image of God uh that that’s a verse in Genesis chapter 1 Genesis 1127 talks about us
05:1705:17 - being the given the image and likeness of God and um ichus takes that to be human Free Will essentially the ability
05:2305:23 - to choose is what makes us Godlike um and so for that reason we are the focus of God’s Redemptive plan towards
05:3205:32 - creation um so along those lines what we’re going to be focusing on is how God acts towards us and what that tells us
05:4205:42 - about the roles that the members of the Trinity have chosen to adopt so you have any any just wider points you want to
05:4905:49 - make about why we’re approaching this concept talking about the plan of God um I know in the past we we’ve often taken
05:5705:57 - that step back just to try to to contextualize our in sort of the purpose of all creation um yeah uh there isn’t
06:0706:07 - really much that I would say I except something I’ve said in the past I’m sure I’ll I’ll essentially be repeating
06:1406:14 - myself um our interest in uh how the Trinity Works what the Trinity is and all of that
06:2306:23 - is because it helps us to appreciate what God is doing in our experience there the the way that
06:3306:33 - the Bible is structured we’re not told things just for the sake of being given information there are lots of things the
06:4006:40 - Bible does not tell us about eternity about God about the Angels even about life in this world lots of things that
06:4906:49 - we’re discovering um scientifically and having experience in the Bible does not concern itself with not because we don’t
06:5606:56 - have any interactions with those things but because ultim they’re not particularly relevant to the experience
07:0207:02 - we are having spiritually we’re here to make a choice about the Lord and in order to help us understand what the
07:1107:11 - issues are and understand what the stakes are we’re given a wealth of information much beyond what we um will
07:2007:20 - fully appreciate in this life and use but everything that is relevant to our actually making those
07:2707:27 - choices that is why we have any information on the Trinity as I have said before this thing even though we
07:3507:35 - did not know we we don’t see in the Old Testament that um there was the father the word the the spirit the son whether
07:4307:43 - you call it the word or the son the same thing even though we don’t see that particularly in view in the Old
07:5007:50 - Testament we will find lots of scriptures in the Old Testament that tell us that there is something um
07:5607:56 - interesting about the the the person of God we see him as one but we also see multiple personalities who are God we
08:0608:06 - see that in the Old Testament but we don’t actually see who is what where in the Trinity we don’t see the trinity in
08:1308:13 - view in the Old Testament but in the New Testament it’s brought to light it’s made clear to us and the reason for that
08:2008:20 - is because it’s bound this whole idea of the Trinity is bound with God’s Plan of Redemption so um I would say that
08:3008:30 - uh our interest in this is essentially to understand what the Lord is doing with us it is bound with the plan that
08:3808:38 - God has for realizing a family in the end and because man is Central to it because Christ is Central to that plan
08:4508:45 - we come to appreciate um what the Bible says about the Trinity as a result so um again it’s like one of those things
08:5408:54 - where um some people might feel it’s not relevant to my faith whether there are people who would say well uh it doesn’t
09:0109:01 - matter if I believe that the three are three separate persons or if it is one person wearing three different hats and
09:0609:06 - all of that but it’s going to affect your understanding of Salvation it’s going to affect your understanding of
09:1109:11 - why you’re still here after you’ve believed in Jesus Christ if you don’t understand the Trinity as the Bible has
09:1809:18 - given us to understand it so um that’s that’s what I would say it’s important to uh appreciate what the Bible has to
09:2909:29 - say about all of these things um particularly about this so that we can have um Clarity we can understand what
09:3809:38 - it is we’re doing here on Earth that’s what I have to say yeah I mean and I think it is no exaggeration to say that
09:4609:46 - you cannot properly understand Redemption for us as humans if you don’t understand the Trinity right um you know
09:5309:53 - there’s a reason why Jesus being God and man is considered to be part of the Gospel message the body of Christ so to
09:5909:59 - speak and you can’t really properly understand who Jesus was and why he was sent that is sent by the father and how
10:0710:07 - he was empowered by the Holy Spirit if you don’t understand the Trinity now the point in saying this is that we
10:1410:14 - understand the Trinity most fundamentally through God’s Redemptive plan for us as humankind right that was
10:2010:20 - kind of the overview here that’s why we’re going to be looking at all of these points along U you know as as
10:2710:27 - points along the path of human Redemption and God plan for human history but the purpose of this like
10:3210:32 - Audi has been saying is to help us make sense of that um that is the light in which we understand the Trinity and that
10:4010:40 - is the light in which these rules were adopted and I’m going to keep harping on that point because there are actually
10:4510:45 - plenty of folks who who teach things other than that as in the roles of the Trinity are inherent to God’s nature of
10:5210:52 - the three persons although we don’t find that persuasive because we say God share is one Essence so the differences in the
11:0011:00 - members of the Trinity and how they act are adopted roles for the sake of redeeming mankind right there it’s a
11:0711:07 - choice um and that’s an important point to make right God has choice in the same way that we do um but the roles of God
11:1511:15 - are demonstrated through his actions in his plan rather than God being bound as if his hands were tied um so we’ll get
11:2411:24 - to that I think a little bit more a future section not so much this one but just important points to make here about
11:3111:31 - God’s roles showing up in the plan for human history so now we’re going to be going
11:3911:39 - through a non-exhaustive list of examples of parts of God’s plan for human history and how the roles of the
11:4811:48 - Trinity are demonstrated in these parts of the plan so uh purpose of this slide more or less just to say that more
11:5511:55 - things could be discussed than those we are going over here even with just a few examples though like the few that we’re
12:0112:01 - going to go over in kind of upcoming slides here it should be clear how the working out of God’s plan for human
12:0912:09 - history helps us understand the roles that the member of the Trinity have adopted that is it will shed light on
12:1712:17 - how the Trinity operates within material creation that’s kind of the point of us going through all these examples but
12:2512:25 - just because we go through I don’t know 10 examples or however many exactly we’re going through here doesn’t mean
12:3012:30 - that there aren’t more instances and in fact it is no exaggeration to say that everything that God is working out in
12:3712:37 - the world his entire plan has all three members of the Trinity involved adopting adopting the roles that they have chosen
12:4612:46 - to support God’s Redemptive purposes for Humanity throughout all creation right in fact you should think of this as
12:5212:52 - basically unlimited as in not just in these areas as if in all the other areas only one member of the trinity is
12:5912:59 - involved but this kind of applies all the way across the board so that’s what I would say uh by way of
13:0813:08 - starting out here um Audi have anything else before we get into specific examples
13:1513:15 - [Music] um I don’t think I I don’t I don’t think I do right now just keep going okay
13:2613:26 - yeah so this one might be kind of cheating almost but the first thing we’re going to talk about is just the
13:3213:32 - plan of God generally so I know I said we’re going to be talking about specific cases here but this is kind of what I
13:3813:38 - was getting at uh just a moment ago that everything in the plan of God uh actually involves the roles in the
13:4613:46 - Trinity fulfilling their parts it’s not just um it’s not just this part and that part and that part as if there are Parts
13:5313:53 - where this doesn’t apply but the entire fabric of creation if you will has the roles of the Trinity operating um in
14:0214:02 - perfect Unity again not completely separate as in separate Wills the one will of God um operating out in Perfect
14:0914:09 - Harmony to bring about God’s purposes so the entire plan of God generally is authorized by the will of the father so
14:1714:17 - decreed by the will of the father executed by the word the son and administered through the wisdom and
14:2514:25 - power of the spirit so empowered by the spirit with evil restrained by the spirit like we’ve talked about in the
14:3114:31 - past um now there are a lot of scripture references in all of these slides um if people have questions we can go through
14:3914:39 - some of them I was going to leave this as sort of something that um people who come back and are watching this we go
14:4514:45 - through this um kind of do take your time to look at the references see where we’re getting what we’re talking about
14:5114:51 - but as we make a pass through this study at the top level was thinking we were going to talk about the concepts more
14:5714:57 - and trust that the scripture the Dr luganville uses to support what we’re saying here it’s pretty straightforward
15:0215:02 - most of the time and that’s another reason why I was thinking maybe we wouldn’t go through passage by passage
15:0715:07 - here um so for example that um the plan of God is authorized by the will of the father and executed by the son and
15:1415:14 - administered through the power of the spirit um all of these things you will see um come up in scriptures reasonably
15:2215:22 - directly like we’re not making big jumps here and that’s true for most of the examples as we go through them here but
15:2915:29 - for this first one mostly what we’re talking about is how the plan of God WR large not just individual facets of it
15:3615:36 - but how the whole thing also follows this pattern that we’re talking about about the roles of the members of the
15:4315:43 - Trinity being involved from the get-go um all the way throughout the plan rather than just focusing on specific
15:4915:49 - portions of it uh perhaps one of the most uh not easy to understand but uh uh something
15:5915:59 - that is easy for us to conceptualize in how this division of labor uh might be split out is the creation of the world
16:0616:06 - of the universe generally um and so if you think of uh creation as a process where God is building the universe if
16:1516:15 - you will in the same way um that Carpenters might build a house or things like that so we would say that the
16:2116:21 - father is the one who came up with the blueprints he’s the architect the one who has the plans and the authority to
16:2816:28 - direct the construction we would say um carried out by the son um who’s the one who affects uh creation who who bends
16:3716:37 - material Universe to his will we we might say and then empowered by the Holy Spirit um the one who is um who whose
16:4816:48 - role in this process is to um give the Firepower we might say to bring it about and so this division here um that we
16:5616:56 - have have brought about the architect and and the one who does things the one who acts in a visible Manner and the one
17:0217:02 - who acts in a less visible manner but behind the scenes to support that which is being done that is nothing new that
17:1017:10 - is what we have been talking about here but um in the creation of the world and and everything that is in it right so
17:1817:18 - that includes us as humans we can see that this division of labor is present uh among the members of the Trinity and
17:2617:26 - as we’ve been saying this is true for everything throughout God’s plan uh for human history plan for the universe
17:3317:33 - generally but it is kind of obvious in creation right um now when we see god mentioned in Genesis we will get to this
17:4317:43 - in not the lesson that we’re kind of currently focused on so this video but the next one that we do we’re going to
17:4717:47 - be talking a bit more specifically about uh God in the Old Testament and how do we know which member of the Trinity is
17:5417:54 - kind of meant in which place and things like that um but the point Point here is is that these are how the roles manifest
18:0318:03 - in the process of creation um now um this is a little bit off topic so I hope you’ll forgive me here it’s interesting
18:1118:11 - to consider how this was true not only in the days of recreation that um those of us who believe in the so-called
18:1918:19 - Genesis Gap postulate between the first and second verses of Genesis chapter 1 that is the world was judged on account
18:2718:27 - of Satan’s rebellion and and in the book of uh the first couple chapters of Genesis we actually have an account of
18:3318:33 - God’s Recreation of the world um so he blacked out the universe in judgment um uh the Waters of the deep you know were
18:4118:41 - spread across you know everything would be snuffed out in darkness this is why we see a state of Darkness at the
18:4618:46 - beginning of the book of Genesis even though God is light well this division of labor as I say we have in a visible
18:5418:54 - sense to us because the account of creation that we are given in the book of Genesis well it’s very human-
19:0119:01 - centered right you see uh we have you know the division of the waters above from the waters below and the creation
19:0719:07 - of lights and the creation of animals but in fact a lot of ink is spent in those initial chapters talking about the
19:1319:13 - creation of humankind uh for obvious purposes the Bible is the book given to us by God to help us understand him so
19:2019:20 - it’s obviously going to be focused on us but take a step back and consider that God had actually already created the
19:2719:27 - universe flora and FAA and uh you know things we don’t even know we we do know that um the Angels initially inhabited
19:3519:35 - Earth just like us right this planet we would say in our solar system in our galaxy and what have you but God’s
19:4219:42 - creation this is not the first time right and so if we are talking about creation and how the father’s the
19:4919:49 - architect and the son’s the agent and the spirit’s the empowerer well consider that what was it like the first time and
19:5719:57 - I don’t want to get off in the weeds but I think it’s interesting to consider that the roles that God has adopted with
20:0320:03 - regards to humanity right we’ve been arguing that we understand God through his roles as they manifest in our
20:1220:12 - universe you know this present creation and how God interacts with us well did those carry back into how God interacts
20:1820:18 - with the angels as well and I think um again I don’t want to get too of in the weeds here that you can postulate that
20:2520:25 - the answer is yes because Jesus Christ um has United himself to humanity he took on a full human nature he is one of
20:3420:34 - us and that should blow our minds right that God um that Jesus Christ is now fully God yet fully man and he chose to
20:4020:40 - adopt a human nature rather than an Angelic nature for example um God created the angels too um so that these
20:4820:48 - roles aren’t just necessarily the playing out with regards to God’s relationship to humanity but God’s
20:5520:55 - relationship to all of his creatures right and this to tie it back into a point that I know Audie has has made
21:0221:02 - very well multiple times throughout the study is why this rebellion of Satan and God’s plan for us as being replacements
21:1021:10 - for the fallen angels He is restoring his family those who want to choose for him that’s why we were created not just
21:1721:17 - to manifest the glory of God you know that’s the normal catechism answer but also because of this wider conflict
21:2321:23 - playing out on the pages of History we might say human beings are part of this story that is unfolding in the universe
21:3121:31 - and so for that reason it’s not just like God has this one relationship with us as humans and then he’s completely
21:3921:39 - different in how he acts with the angels I would say that it is more about how he interact with material creation um so
21:4821:48 - again don’t want to get too off in the weeds there but the point is in God’s creation of the universe we see this
21:5421:54 - division in the responsibilities that the members of the Trinity have and and that division that is present here will
22:0122:01 - show up all throughout all of the other examples we talk about as well right so um with respect to uh the
22:1222:12 - Angels um yeah it it it only stands to reason as far as I can see that indeed the the roles of God were
22:2422:24 - also uh at play then the reason I would say so is it’s not as if we’re an afterthought or that something went
22:3622:36 - wrong in the plan that God had and he had to make a fix all of this is the plan of God the Angels the
22:4522:45 - human race and ultimately the blend of God’s family at the end he always meant to have a family that came out of the
22:5522:55 - tests that angels went through that human being are going through so everything that has happened is part of
23:0323:03 - that test that’s that’s actually the reason that um we say some of the things we say like
23:0923:09 - for example that uh mankind is sort of the centerpiece the the the Lynch pin of God’s plan
23:1823:18 - because it’s it’s the Christ who is both man and God who makes the plan of God possible so without human Humanity
23:2923:29 - the plan of God would not really work because okay let’s uh let’s let’s consider this thoughts just a little bit
23:3823:38 - um if God had just created the family he wanted and not granted the opportunity for testing and
23:4723:47 - everything on what basis really would this eternal family be satisfied that their God is a good god
23:5823:58 - it would be like a fate accomp if if they have the capacity to reason through the whole Business of Being God’s family
24:0624:06 - they would essentially have to just deal with the fact that they are supposed to be his family without any
24:1424:14 - choice in the matter now there’s no there’s no reason God can’t have that he is God he can do
24:2024:20 - whatever he wants but his character constrains him to make a family that wants to be his
24:3024:30 - family eternally and for that to be the case they have to be able to make a choice
24:3524:35 - that’s number one then number two they have to see the aftermath of those choices they have to see the
24:4124:41 - demonstration of God’s character in real time to them and to others that satisfies any possible question that
24:5024:50 - could arise as to whether being part of God’s family is a good thing for them or not so when the creation of the Angels
25:0025:00 - it was it just makes sense to to think that the way that God conducted himself toward them would not be terribly
25:0725:07 - different than the way he he conducted he he conducts himself toward us the the big differences would be that the Angels
25:1525:15 - were created given all the advantages so that they did not need to sin there was no impetus there was no no necessity to
25:2425:24 - sin in fact um one of the things that we discussed today uh during our our family bible study was that it wasn’t so much
25:3225:32 - that God made the Angels unable to repent as if he gave them a handicap it was that he gave them such a huge
25:3825:38 - advantage that they didn’t need to be able to repent in other words their understanding of God was made so
25:4825:48 - great that their their their knowledge was so vast and it it it encompassed everything in a way that human beings
25:5725:57 - simply don’t quite have their ability to do so when they made a choice it’s it would have been
26:0526:05 - impossible to get them to change their minds because they had taken just about everything into account at making that
26:1026:10 - choice what new information could you give to them that would change their minds now for example consider that um
26:1726:17 - Satan knows very well he knows this is it’s not hidden from him that the Bible says he’s going to lose this fight he
26:2426:24 - knows it and he knows the time that he’s working with he knows the time that the Lord has given for the testing of
26:3126:31 - mankind the Bible even tells us not only that he loses this phase of the B of the of the battle this phase of the war he
26:3926:39 - loses completely the church is completed and given into the Embrace of the Lord Jesus Christ then he sees the Millennium
26:4726:47 - come to pass and the the the um contingent of the uh friends of the Bride realized he will see all of these
26:5626:56 - things happen prophecy completely fulfilled And yet when he is released from his prison what does he do he goes
27:0627:06 - right back to war that’s what he does so it’s not so these these these differences
27:1427:14 - that we see between them and us they’re not big enough to to suggest that there was a difference in the way that the
27:2027:20 - Lord handled them except of course there was no plan for Redemption for them because they would not you know take
27:2627:26 - advantage of that plan and I mean and I wasn’t trying to make a Grand Point by this other than I think it’s very
27:3227:32 - Illuminating for us to consider some people seem to really bulk at this idea that we understand God through our
27:3927:39 - relationship with him as in they view that as um fundamentally almost conditional upon humankind you see what
27:4627:46 - I’m saying rather than an and a characteristic of God who is independent from Human perspective we would say and
27:5327:53 - I was just trying to bring up the idea that well there was a time before h right and the way in which God
28:0228:02 - operates his choice is independent from our perception of him right we do not alter God’s being just by watching him
28:0928:09 - for example um or any nonsense like that and um something else that occurred to me as you were talking as well so this
28:1528:15 - idea of angelic knowledge was progressive revelation that’s a theological term that we typically use
28:2128:21 - to say that basically God hasn’t revealed his full plan to people throughout all of history right so the
28:2828:28 - before the first Advent of Christ it was kind of a mystery it was hidden from people’s eyes that there would be two
28:3328:33 - advents rather than just one well that applies to angels as well um not perhaps in quite the same way as we are because
28:4128:41 - they have vastly more knowledge than we do but there’s this verse in I think it’s in First Peter that talks about
28:4628:46 - even angels want to look into these things right yeah you know and and so this idea of progressive revelation
28:5328:53 - applies to angels as well um and so specifically actually God sending Jesus Christ to the Cross you know we talk
29:0329:03 - about this as this was the the move whereby Jesus crushed the head of the serpent we would say right fulfilling
29:0929:09 - that Prophecy from Genesis chapter 3 um well Satan didn’t see this move coming right God hadn’t exactly made it clear
29:1829:18 - to the angels beforehand that the second person in the Trinity was going to take on a human nature and die for the sins
29:2429:24 - of mankind that caught them by surprise we would say right um and as wise as the
29:3229:32 - angels are they didn’t see what we would call the the move of Victory right that God’s won you know we we do believe this
29:4129:41 - by the way positionally the cross is the turning point of all history Jesus conquered death death has no power over
29:4829:48 - us anymore the battle has already been won on the basis of the blood of Christ on the cross but they didn’t see it
29:5429:54 - coming and moreover the roles that went into into that Jesus adopting a human nature in submission it’s not that he
30:0230:02 - ever wasn’t acting as the agent before that but that particular facet of it was not realized until the Incarnation right
30:1030:10 - and so angels are learning too right they’re different from us they learn differently they make their choices
30:1530:15 - differently but this idea of God’s revelation of himself which is very fundamental to the Trinity actually we
30:2130:21 - will get to that again not this lesson but I think in the next one we’ll talk about this why didn’t God just tell
30:2730:27 - Humanity about the TR from the very beginning it’s a good question right um well we’re going to address that then
30:3330:33 - but it also applies to how the Angels conceive of God right and they see God’s roles working out in his Redemptive plan
30:4030:40 - for All Creatures yeah so yeah so we we we might not actually you know consider that
30:4730:47 - there was a Redemptive plan for them at that time because as we s with the position of mankind is that we start
30:5330:53 - from the place of sin they started from the place of righteousness so it was more like um
30:5830:58 - uh is this God worthy of continuing to receive our service and our worship
31:0631:06 - that’s where they were but as such um one thing that I’ve seen exus talk about is that Satan actually envied the second
31:1331:13 - person of the Trinity the role the place he had in creation you know so it was like even then they knew
31:2231:22 - about the Trinity and of course there had to be there was still that sort of division so to speak of roles some
31:2731:27 - something that um Would Have Made It sensible to think that Satan would go well if the second person of of the
31:3631:36 - Trinity um should have these privileges why can’t I you know and remember too that this is something that humanity is
31:4231:42 - also dealing with a sense of uh Envy of the Lord Jesus in the position he has you know in God’s plan and in in God’s
31:5331:53 - world so to speak so you you find a lot of people who want to be christs just like him or people who want to demote
32:0032:00 - him to the position of just any other Prophet he’s no better than I am so to speak so people have to deal with that
32:0732:07 - sort of thing today and there is no reason to think that um the Angels did not also have to deal with that um so
32:1532:15 - yeah that’s that’s what I would say I think that there is a place for uh that thought yeah for sure and I would say a
32:2232:22 - good way to put what we’re talking about is that the throne that Satan usurped is the Throne of Jesus Christ right and
32:3032:30 - Jesus will come back um we kind of already did after the resurrection but especially after his return he’ll make
32:3632:36 - the world foot stol um for the father well s or Jesus will sit at the right hand of God the father right um and that
32:4432:44 - Throne that’s what we’re talking about that’s the one that Satan us serve we call him the prince of the power of the
32:4832:48 - air I think that’s Ephesians 2 right or maybe Ephesians one I don’t remember but the point is is that Satan stole this
32:5432:54 - and he stole the seat that rightfully belongs to Jesus Christ who is the true Morning Star and Jesus is going to take
32:5932:59 - it back there’s nothing Satan can do about it but anyway I’m sorry we got a little off topic there but this is a
33:0533:05 - very interesting conversation as it relates to the roles of God in all of material creation that wider plan that
33:1233:12 - we always like to kind of uh uh bring up The Echoes of as it goes about how we live our lives is that well this entire
33:1933:19 - thing is playing out this is why we’re here this is why the universe exists and God’s roles have been there from the
33:2633:26 - beginning right his his purposes his plans stand for all time and we are just part of that getting a glimpse into the
33:3533:35 - division that um God’s perfect Unity brings as he works out his plan in the world so including in creation as we’ve
33:4333:43 - just been going over yeah so having talked about the first example of the creation of the world and
33:5333:53 - how the roles in the Trinity manifest in that particular part of God plan we’re going to talk about the revelation of
34:0034:00 - the word next So within the three roles we would say the father expresses the word Christ is the word he is called the
34:1034:10 - logos the Divine logos in John chapter 1 The Living Word of God who became flesh and dwelt Among Us and the spirit is the
34:1934:19 - one who reveals the word and you could put in parentheses here to us he’s the one who makes spiritual things
34:2534:25 - intelligible to us without the Holy Spirit who convicts our hearts of the truth we would not be able to comprehend
34:3134:31 - spiritual things because we are not inherently spiritual in the way that it is necessary to do that so our ability
34:3934:39 - to understand and comprehend the truth comes from God and just a side tangent this is one of the reasons why it’s so
34:4634:46 - incredibly arrogant to think that we are somehow saved any other way other than by grace through faith right by Grace
34:5334:53 - emphasis on that because we couldn’t even understand the things we have to believe to be saved if it weren’t for
35:0035:00 - God helping us right see what I’m saying there like we couldn’t we couldn’t even take that step independent from God now
35:0535:05 - this doesn’t mean that God conditions our belief but it does mean that it is entirely through Grace that we are saved
35:1435:14 - but the purpose of this slide is getting at the revelation of the word of God to the world um and uh progressive
35:2235:22 - revelation does come into this right Jesus is the word of God John chapter 1 Express says that he is the agent in
35:2935:29 - creation right the world was made through him it’s how we would say it you know actually that gets back into
35:3535:35 - creation of the world that we just talked about but Jesus Christ is the Divine logos we don’t kind of fully
35:4235:42 - understand that until he comes in the flesh in the first Incarnation and in fact in a positional sense even though
35:4835:48 - Christ has already paid for our sin on the cross death is already defeated he’s going to return again in Revelation 19
35:5535:55 - to defeat the armies of the Antichrist at armag get in and then he will rule from Jerusalem during the Millennium
36:0136:01 - that’s kind of still coming positionally and if Christ is the word of God he is still present progressive being revealed
36:0836:08 - to the world however when we think about what Jesus is what he represents right God’s plan Jesus is the embodiment of
36:1936:19 - the word of God in the sense of the plan of God God’s relationship to humanity it all centers on Jesus Christ this is why
36:2736:27 - we say Jesus Jus is the word of God right he is the Lynch pin of God’s plan to save Humanity but in that sense Jesus
36:3636:36 - is an expression of the father’s will right of the Father’s Love we’ll get to that I mean I’m skipping ahead but
36:4236:42 - somewhere over here right we say that the father gives us an example of love in sending his son to die for us right
36:4836:48 - Jesus is the object of our faith and we have the hope of Resurrection since we are sealed with the Holy Spirit Well
36:5436:54 - that I mean all of these things are related of course what we’re saying is Jesus say the word of God the message of
37:0037:00 - God if you want to use that so the Greek word behind word here is logos and has a whole bunch of meanings actually it’s a
37:0737:07 - flexible word we would say um reason logic uh comes from the word too logic actually you can see the root there um
37:1537:15 - well Jesus is God’s message to humanity and in fact um one of my favorite passages I I I think I might have even
37:2337:23 - brought this up already once in the study but these first few verses of the book book of Hebrews are so powerful
37:2937:29 - right that in the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets in many times and in various ways but in these
37:3437:34 - last days he has spoken to us by his son spoken to us by his son his son as the word of God as the message of God right
37:4337:43 - an expression of the father’s will something that is visible to us in the word Jesus is the Father’s message what
37:4937:49 - he did for us on the cross is the Father’s message to us but we only understand that and uh and have it made
37:5737:57 - uh have it make sense to us through the quickening of the Holy Spirit and that’s a Ministry of the of the spirit um so
38:0538:05 - that is kind of where we’re going when we say that the roles of the Trinity are all in play when we talk about the um
38:1338:13 - when we talk about the revelation of the word of God in the world so aie anything you want to say on this
38:2038:20 - one yeah um I want to add that that word uh logos also his plan so again we come back to the plan of
38:3338:33 - God the plan of God is to have an eternal family and that plan is only possible because Jesus Christ would die
38:4038:40 - on the cross for human beings rescuing human beings and demonstrating to the angels that God is
38:4638:46 - both just and merciful and thus cementing his um right
38:5838:58 - to their worship and confirming those who chose loyalty to him and condemning those who
39:0439:04 - chose Rebellion against him so again this is God’s plan which we were
39:1439:14 - talking about a little earlier that he would have an eternal family and the way he would get it is
39:2039:20 - that he would create creatures with the ability to make choices and put them through experiences where they could
39:2539:25 - actually make choices and ultimately see how those choices play out and how God responds to them so that they can
39:3239:32 - appreciate whether they have made the right choice in standing with God and wanting to be his eternal family or
39:3939:39 - whether they’ve made the wrong one in choosing against him so in Jesus Christ all of this is embodied all of it is
39:4839:48 - fully embodied and the father again is presented as the one who expresses this plan
39:5839:58 - that is the one who speaks this plan and again Jesus Christ is the one who is basically the plan we see this for
40:0940:09 - example going all the way from Genesis to Revelation he is the one who is demonstrating what will happen on the
40:1640:16 - cross much later on when he Slaughters an animal in the garden and gives the the coat of skin to Adam and Eve and
40:2340:23 - then comes later on to die on the cross and will return later on to resurrect those who believe in him so we see we
40:3140:31 - see that Common Thread running through that he is he is the one that this whole thing has been about and the spirit is
40:3840:38 - the one who is revealing this that is he is the one who is bringing it to life in our eyes we’re seeing it happen you know
40:4640:46 - he made the Incarnation possible for example and he made the sacrifice possible and he raised the Lord Jesus
40:5440:54 - from the dead and so on and so forth and he has given us today the witness that we need in our own hearts of the reality
41:0041:00 - of this truth and if we choose to keep walking with the Lord every day learning about him he continues to
41:0841:08 - unveil what this plan of God really is as embodied in Jesus Christ so next we’re going to be talking
41:2041:20 - about Christ’s first Advent and obviously this is a big part of God’s plan for human history we would say in
41:2641:26 - fact culminating in Jesus’s death and Resurrection for us this is the central part of God’s plan for human history um
41:3541:35 - Christ uh in the Incarnation is sent by the father um and then conceived LED and empowered by the holy spirit in his
41:4341:43 - ministry as a human being um during the time we would say he was under kinosis and so when Jesus became man when he
41:5341:53 - dwelt Among Us um as a human being being he was not taking full advantage of his divine power right this is the doctrine
42:0242:02 - of kinosis but he still had the empowerment of the holy spirit in much the same way the Old Testament prophets
42:0842:08 - did except because it was Jesus it would be more more intensified more in quantity however you want to think about
42:1542:15 - it he was empowered by the spirit during the Incarnation um and uh in fact the spirit was Central to him paying for our
42:2342:23 - sin upon the cross as well um so taking that step back the first Advent of Jesus Christ and we would say this is uh the
42:3242:32 - the crown of thorns not the kingly crown right the suffering servant not the Conquering King that Jesus will be when
42:3842:38 - he returns during the second Advent well this particular phase in God’s plan for human history involved all three members
42:4642:46 - of the Trinity working together in the roles that they adopted uh for working out the plan of God just as we’ve been
42:5242:52 - talking about right uh Christ is sent on the father’s Authority as a representative of the father and so when
42:5942:59 - you think of all the language in the Gospel of John that comes along the lines of the one who sent me and and his
43:0643:06 - testimony Jesus is speaking of God the Father um and so God the father is the one without authority Jesus is sent by
43:1443:14 - him Jesus is the one who is sent the one we see the one who is before us before our eyes the one working out God’s plan
43:2243:22 - since the payment of human sin and in fact the Incarnation and all of Jesus’s suffering up until the cross well
43:3043:30 - obviously that was done by Jesus Christ right the agent but he also had the indwelling and the empowerment of the
43:3743:37 - Holy Spirit and the anointing of the Holy Spirit as well you know and this is kind of well symbolized by his baptism
43:4343:43 - which we’ve already been through um we I think we talked about that if not the last lesson at least too back um about
43:5043:50 - how Jesus’s baptism unlike the baptism of John the Baptist generally speaking represents um him being submerged in our
43:5843:58 - sin so to speak but coming up being resurrected after the cross God’s acceptance of his payment for our sin
44:0544:05 - right that is the the metaphor of the baptism of Jesus Christ by John the Baptist well the spirit is the one who
44:1444:14 - enables this as well um so I don’t think too too much to say here other than it is another reflection of these roles
44:2144:21 - that we’ve been talking about um this time obviously very critically important to the plan of God in that the um the
44:2944:29 - conception the birth um the life the crucifixion the resurrection of Jesus Christ is the plan of God in essence
44:3844:38 - right this is the the Cornerstone the lynchpin of God’s redempt plan for Humanity um a you have anything to add
44:4744:47 - to this particular one no except just to repeat what I said yeah yeah it’s actually the same it’s the same as we
44:5644:56 - will continue to see now we’re going to talk about the victory of Salvation now this is
45:0845:08 - obviously very closely linked with Christ’s first Advent although the first Advent kind of encompasses both the
45:1345:13 - Incarnation and Christ payment for our sin where we would say the victory of Salvation really more focused on the
45:2045:20 - cross and what that means for us here um so if you think of this in an almost a military context or
45:2745:27 - something where we have these very clearly delineated Authority relationships um the father is the one
45:3345:33 - who sends the son on the mission the son is the one who accomplishes the mission and the Holy Spirit is the one who
45:3945:39 - supports the mission right so you want to think of it like a special operations mission right God is like Special
45:4645:46 - Operations Command that’s the father and the son is like the the the team of operatives that get sent to do it and
45:5345:53 - the spirit is supporting um the team leader down in the world right I’m not quite entirely The Perfect Analogy but
46:0146:01 - it helps us understand that the purpose of Christ coming into the world to pay for our sin it was a mission this is why
46:1146:11 - the Incarnation happened this is why he became a human being and lived Among Us was to take that penalty for our sin in
46:1946:19 - our place um this was the mission to which he had been assigned the cup that he was to drink from you want to use
46:2646:26 - that language as as he was praying in Gethsemane I think it’s in John chapter 17 I want to say maybe I’m wrong on that
46:3246:32 - you know he was praying for our benefit not because he didn’t actually want to do the will of the father but to give us
46:3846:38 - a sense of what he was willingly signing up for right he was accepting the mission that the father had given him um
46:4646:46 - to pay for all human sin past present and future that we might be reconciled to God the father that was the mission
46:5446:54 - that Jesus signed up for right um so that’s why the father sent him that’s what the son did when he was in the
47:0047:00 - world and he was supported by the spirit in this Mission assigned by the father again just the same idea that we’ve been
47:0847:08 - going through all along here yeah so can I say something yeah yeah keep going yeah go for it okay okay right so
47:1847:18 - there’s a there’s a reason I want to jump in here it’s critical to to remember that when the sun came for this
47:2747:27 - job for this Mission he had to live a truly human life without taking advantage of his
47:3447:34 - deity in any way this is something that I feel is usually lost not not not lost in its entirety I think that we all at
47:4347:43 - least comprehended on some level but there are certain things that about the way he lived his life and the things he
47:4947:49 - did that leads quite a few Believers to the conclusion that he he did take advantage
47:5747:57 - of his deity without realizing that doing so would have would have invalidated his sacrifice the Lord Jesus
48:0448:04 - had to be a real true human being like anybody else in this world he had to or else he couldn’t be the the captain of
48:1548:15 - our of our Salvation he couldn’t which explains then the father could send him and he
48:2448:24 - was going on on an extraordinarily difficult Mission nobody has had that kind of mission since the beginning of
48:3048:30 - the of the human race until now nobody could have been sent into a world in that way had to maintain perfect
48:3948:39 - righteousness and still die for the people who would eventually murder him people who persecuted him and ultimately
48:4548:45 - killed him and he was going to be paying the price of their sin by the by his death it was an impossible mission for
48:5248:52 - any ordinary human being to handle and remember even though he was born sinless even though he was special in every kind
49:0049:00 - of way he was still a human being so the only way he could have accomplished that mission was taking full advantage of the
49:0649:06 - Holy Spirit that’s the only way which of course brings the whole
49:1349:13 - idea you know to play that there was a division of roles he had to live a truly human life without taking advantage of
49:1949:19 - his deity the Holy Spirit had to play the part of supporting him that is he had to hold him up in the way that de
49:2649:26 - was supposed to hold him up and this the reason this this is critical for us to appreciate too is that in our own
49:3449:34 - personal lives as Christians in this world we have undertaken a very in fact you could say an impossible mission as
49:4049:40 - well and the person who is supporting that mission and making it possible at all is the holy spirit without him it’s
49:4749:47 - never going to work so again this division of roles comes to Bear because it shows us again as I’ve just
49:5749:57 - said how it is even possible for any of us to get through this world as a Believer and not lose our faith because
50:0450:04 - the captain of our Salvation did the same thing he lived a truly human life without taking any advantage of all the
50:1250:12 - advantages that he did have as God he certainly couldn’t be tempted with anything as God because he had
50:1950:19 - everything and yet when he was born into this world he was born to the line that God had promised would rule the world he
50:2750:27 - was born to the line of David and David had been promised that he would eventually rule the world that there
50:3250:32 - would always be someone sitting on the throne of Israel and ultimately God was going to give the rulership the
50:3850:38 - Premiership of the Nations to Israel so Jesus was born to that role but his family was poor and he wasn’t even
50:4650:46 - recognized as having come from the davidic line everybody thought he came from Galilee he did not come from
50:5250:52 - Galilee he was from Bethlehem in Judah they didn’t Accord him the respect that was due to him and he had to endure that
50:5850:58 - sort of thing how many of us could take that sort of trouble but this is what where again we see how this division of
51:0851:08 - labor works out he played his own role which was to live that life he was called To Live taking full advantage of
51:1451:14 - the role another one was playing the Holy Spirit supporting him in every way to make sure that that role worked out
51:2151:21 - and I think like you said I I I think we just it’s not so much that people would disagree with the point we’re making
51:2751:27 - like in a theological sense is that it just doesn’t get discussed that much right as in we we have this obvious
51:3351:33 - focus on the father sending Jesus and Jesus perfectly exercising his Free Will in the world but the thing is that on
51:4351:43 - its own in his Humanity Jesus couldn’t have done it right the Holy Spirit has to play that role of support otherwise
51:5051:50 - the Incarnation isn’t possible right I think maybe that’s a bit harder for us to grasp but um if you take a back and
51:5751:57 - you think when we fight against sin in the Christian Life sanctification if we try to do it solely on our own will now
52:0452:04 - of course we have a sin nature Jesus did not that that is a complicating Factor it is true however it is impossible for
52:1152:11 - human beings to completely you know turn their backs on sin 100% like how Jesus had to do to be a worthy sacrifice
52:2052:20 - without the power of the Holy Spirit right um so when Jesus is facing the tests why the devil you know as recorded
52:2752:27 - in the gospels you bet you he was praying and the Holy Spirit was working within him for him to resist the
52:3452:34 - Temptations for him to do the right thing in those circumstances and this is why the Bible says that Jesus can
52:4152:41 - sympathize with us he understands us because he was actually a human being in the same way that we are not just that I
52:4952:49 - don’t know he kind of looked like a human being but on the inside he was all different right no he was one of us
52:5452:54 - truly and that means that when he went through tests and trials and and tribulation and all that
53:0153:01 - difficulty that AI mentioned that no one before or since will ever have to endure what he endured he only got through it
53:0753:07 - with the power of the spirit he couldn’t have done it without the power of the Holy Spirit that’s where we see the
53:1253:12 - roles come into play like you said um yeah so now we’re going to talk about
53:2153:21 - the reconciliation of the believer and so we would say the believer to the father the father as the the face the
53:2853:28 - representation of deity right as Audi has used that phrase um the one who has the power to judge us as the one with
53:3653:36 - authority right well our reconciliation to God and and specifically the father as the one manifesting that
53:4353:43 - authoritative presence to us that happens through the payment of Jesus Christ that’s the victory of Salvation
53:4853:48 - we just talked about his payment for us on the cross the culmination of his Incarnation as a human being well the
53:5653:56 - Recon ilation of the believer to the father happens through the roles of the Trinity have adopted too so the father
54:0354:03 - is the one that we are positionally arrange estranged from um we are restored to fellowship with him through
54:1054:10 - the mediation of the son by means of his sacrifice on the cross right so Jesus intercedes from us he is he is our
54:1754:17 - Advocate and intercessor but he’s also the one who paid for our sin on the cross and the spirit is the one who
54:2554:25 - actually uh for lack of a better word makes that Fellowship possible with God as in we are united with God we have a
54:3254:32 - fellowship with him through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we talked about this a little bit before in you
54:3954:39 - know the the Great Commission the pass the passage that often gets proof text for water baptism we talked about how
54:4654:46 - actually we are becoming United with the person of God um father son and spirit it’s why the Trinity is invoked there
54:5454:54 - it’s not just oh well I’m going to do some ritual and say father son and spirit and wave my hand over you it is
55:0055:00 - you are becoming one with the Trinity which is composed of these three equal members we we use that Pastor to talk
55:0655:06 - about equality they’re mentioned in the same breath we become one with God upon belief upon spiritual baptism into the
55:1555:15 - person of the father and the son and the spirit and that is mediated through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit um in
55:2155:21 - Romans chapter 8 Paul says that those who do not have the Holy Spirit are not of God right we are sealed with the
55:2755:27 - spirit it is a sign of our belief right um it’s the hope of Resurrection we have that sealing of the Holy Spirit but the
55:3555:35 - spirit’s ministry here is the one of of reconciling us he’s actually the one through whom we have this reconciliation
55:4455:44 - we would say because his his indwelling presence within us is what gives us unity and fellowship with god um and so
55:5355:53 - uh in all three of these ways right again the father as the representation of authority the one whom we are
55:5855:58 - estranged from on account of our sin the son as our Advocate and intercessor alongside being the one who paid for our
56:0656:06 - sin through his actions on the cross and the spirit being the one who actually mediates that reconciliation between us
56:1356:13 - and God um by by indwelling us by giving us that by linking us to God the father and God the son and God the Holy Spirit
56:2256:22 - himself is is through that indwelling of the Holy Spirit within us um all three members of the Trinity heavily
56:2956:29 - involved in this process of reconciliation on that the theological term for it here a you have anything you
56:3756:37 - want to you want to comment on as it when it comes to this particular facet uh I don’t think I have much to
56:4556:45 - say on it um I think you’ve covered the grounds yeah I don’t think I have anything to say yeah all right good deal
57:0057:00 - so the next one we’re going to talk about is the Regeneration of the believer now I should say that I think
57:0757:07 - sometimes in uh trying to think about the right way to phrase this maybe the way people talk about regeneration you
57:1257:12 - may hear it combined with baptism or baptismal regeneration people sometimes get the wrong idea about this um this is
57:2157:21 - nothing more than us being indwell by the Holy Spirit after we believe so at the point of belief uh we are made new
57:2957:29 - people you know we are born again from above that’s the way that John chapter 3 would phrase it we put off the old man
57:3557:35 - and put on the new man and all of these things are describing our new state as God works within our hearts to unite us
57:4457:44 - with himself through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and so I feel like trying to think about the right way of
57:5157:51 - phrase is maybe certain groups throughout history have they’ve tried to like make this some sort of magical
57:5757:57 - ritual or something or I don’t know um I’m just trying to think about the way I just I feel like that there are
58:0558:05 - people who take regeneration that use that word and then they attach other things to it and they make it more
58:1058:10 - complicated than it really is um so I don’t want to get too off topic rambling here about all the the false things that
58:1658:16 - people say about this but it really is no more than us being united with God through the indwelling of the Holy
58:2458:24 - Spirit and once he is living within us he helps us resist sin and uh guide us in the truth and make spiritual things
58:3258:32 - known to us um there’s this verse I think it’s in first corini chapter one that talks about how one um like the uh
58:4558:45 - how foolish the gospel appears to those who are not being ADW by the Holy Spirit right um so we do not discern spiritual
58:5358:53 - things entirely intellectually but through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit he helps Quicken our minds to
59:0059:00 - spiritual truth so this is what we are talking about when we are talking about regeneration but to turn us back to the
59:0759:07 - roles in the Trinity the idea behind this um as it pertains to eternal life and us being sealed with the Holy Spirit
59:1559:15 - is that the father is sort of the one who holds the keys to eternal life uh the one who has the authority to uh to
59:2359:23 - give it or withhold it um the son is the one who purchased it uh by his death on the cross for all who believe in him and
59:3259:32 - this is traditional formulation of the Gospel nothing should sound new here but the spirit’s role in this is that he’s
59:3959:39 - the one who actually regenerates us the one who uh unites us with God and indwells us giving us that power to
59:4859:48 - discern spiritual things so there’s this passage here um that is quoted in John chapter 3 this is what I was mentioning
59:5559:55 - being born again from above right um and of course when Jesus is talking to uh Nicodemus In this passage um he kind of
01:00:0401:00:04 - doesn’t understand what what does it mean to be born again how can I go again into my mother’s womb but Jesus is
01:00:1201:00:12 - talking about us becoming part of um the body of Christ being baptized into the person of God as we we’ve continually
01:00:2201:00:22 - harped on that passage in Matthew chap 28 the Great Commission talking about us becoming spiritually United with God
01:00:3001:00:30 - through the indwelling of the holy spirit that is what we are getting get here um and so everyone who is born of
01:00:3701:00:37 - the spirit is born again right Born Again from above um this is what we are talking about about
01:00:4301:00:43 - regeneration and it’s just no more again that the father’s the one with authority the son’s the one who paid for it and
01:00:5001:00:50 - the spirit is the one who empowers us to live in our newness of life these are the same roles that seen continually so
01:00:5801:00:58 - aie do you have more to go on um anything we’ve talked here about regeneration and what that means for
01:01:0701:01:07 - us yeah um one thing I would like to point out is that regeneration is literally
01:01:1601:01:16 - regeneration like we are being remade essentially we are being
01:01:2601:01:26 - reborn so everything that you said is true the other aspect to it is that we
01:01:3501:01:35 - are not going to be the same people we were before we were joined to God through faith in Christ in fact once we
01:01:4701:01:47 - have become once we have believed we receive if you will a new nature we we become different people as
01:01:5801:01:58 - um Paul put it in I believe 1 Corinthians 5:17 or something like that I think it’s
01:02:0501:02:05 - 5:17 of First Corinthian or else second Corinthians um uh how does it put it if any man is is uh believes or is born
01:02:1601:02:16 - again he’s a new creater all things have passed away all things have become new um if any man is in Christ he has become
01:02:2401:02:24 - a new Creator creation all things have passed away everything has become new so that’s a very critical point of um this
01:02:3201:02:32 - regeneration and why this is uh important is that on the one hand God is Not
01:02:4201:02:42 - refurbishing what we used to be making it a better thing he’s making something entirely
01:02:4901:02:49 - new then on the other hand this is the work of God our part in it is that we’re saying yes and you see you see again
01:02:5801:02:58 - this this um division of labor so to speak we are being made new we are born again we are born a new from Above This
01:03:1001:03:10 - re being reborn is a work of the Father the Son and the spirit the father has a role to play in it the SP the son has a
01:03:1901:03:19 - role to play in it the spirit has a role to play in it that is what we are discussing so this regeneration this
01:03:2601:03:26 - remaking of the person is a work of the Trinity it’s not something that is happened stance it’s deliberate on the
01:03:3501:03:35 - part of the Trinity and each member of the Trinity plays a role in realizing it yeah yeah so something I was looking for
01:03:4401:03:44 - I know it’s in one of the Peter series I can’t find it I know it’s one of the earlier ones that talks about the idea
01:03:5001:03:50 - of uh sort of positional versus experiential versus Eternal you know what I’m you what I’m mentioning Audie
01:03:5701:03:57 - um so this comes up a lot when we talk about sanctification um or even salvation generally right Paul Paul uses
01:04:0601:04:06 - the phrase this I think it’s Paul you know working out your salvation with fear and trembling right it is a present
01:04:1201:04:12 - progressive sort of thing and what I wanted to get at here and just going off of what what we’ve just been talking
01:04:1801:04:18 - about is how um regeneration for us this idea of us being born again sometimes I think people
01:04:2601:04:26 - overemphasize the sort of you know oneandone nature of it as if well I’ve been saved I am a believer now and then
01:04:3601:04:36 - they use that as an excuse to not do anything after that um and so uh drct lugan pill often talks about how when we
01:04:4401:04:44 - are in the Christian Life we are either moving forward or moving backward and there is no sitting still um so if we
01:04:5101:04:51 - are not pushing forward spiritually we will eventually atrophy if let the weeds of the world choke out our faith we will
01:04:5801:04:58 - be backsliding um and why this is important for us is because even though it is true that we are new people once
01:05:0601:05:06 - we become indwelt by the Holy Spirit and and God makes spiritual truth accessible to us through the quickening of our
01:05:1501:05:15 - understanding through that indwelling of the Holy Spirit Well we can’t just do nothing with it after that we have
01:05:2201:05:22 - expectations um to pull from the military metaphor which we’ve discussed before in that last series we did on
01:05:2801:05:28 - peroy we spent a long time on it we are Christian Soldiers who’ve been given a duty and we have marching orders and if
01:05:3601:05:36 - we fail to act on that we are disobeying orders and that carries severe consequences in the military but we are
01:05:4401:05:44 - soldiers of Jesus Christ so where I’m going with all this to ties back to Regeneration is that it is not just
01:05:5001:05:50 - something that’s in the past that okay now we’re washed clean before God and yay now we can be saved eternally and I
01:05:5901:05:59 - can just go enjoy my life now we have all of these things that we need to be continually working out in a present
01:06:0601:06:06 - progressive sense um and it’s not like God will I don’t know so if if we just don’t work hard enough God will like
01:06:1401:06:14 - kick us out of his family or something um that’s not what I’m getting at here but the point is is that he wants ever
01:06:1901:06:19 - so much more for us than just doing the bare minimum to not go to hell right doing the bare minimum to be saved from
01:06:2601:06:26 - our sinful State and actually accept Christ sacrifice that should just be the starting point for us that’s how we
01:06:3301:06:33 - ought to view this um and I just another point to emphasize here is that the only way in which anything happens in this is
01:06:4301:06:43 - through God this is one of those reasons why um all of these heresies of the past that deal essentially with the subject
01:06:5101:06:51 - of us working our way into heaven somehow is complete nonsense because you can see in this process we’re talking
01:06:5601:06:56 - about the only way that we understand spiritual truth is through the indwelling Holy Spirit which is given to
01:07:0201:07:02 - us by God and we are able to have access to him and have it be just because Christ paid for us right so the father
01:07:1201:07:12 - planned it the son paid for it and now the spirit is the one who gives us access to the truth where is there room
01:07:1701:07:17 - for us to claim that we did anything to save ourselves there just isn’t any when we properly understand this it becomes
01:07:2601:07:26 - real clear that the Redemptive plan of the Trinity is the only thing that brings us into the family of God and we
01:07:3101:07:31 - have to not say no and of course that is exercising free will on our part but it should just go to show that all of these
01:07:3901:07:39 - things that we’ve been talking about here for the Trinity is God working out his plan and in fact it’s not us we
01:07:4601:07:46 - don’t have a hand to play in our Redemption here in God making us new people and so if we are to actually live
01:07:5401:07:54 - as the new people people that God wants us to be it comes entirely through his power and we get access to that by
01:08:0101:08:01 - submitting in our free will to the holy spirit that indwells us um that’s what it means for us to be regenerated in the
01:08:0801:08:08 - spirit to be the new man um uh a chapter that’s really good for this I don’t want to go too far field here but Galatians 5
01:08:1601:08:16 - talks about the tension between the Flesh and the spirit and how we need to live by the spirit that is that I guess
01:08:2201:08:22 - walk by the spirit is what verse 16 says here um so if we are led by the spirit we are
01:08:2801:08:28 - not under the law we need to do the things of the spirit and those are spiritually discerned not physically
01:08:3401:08:34 - discerned here in this world um and so where I’m going with all of this is that it’s not just something that we get to
01:08:4101:08:41 - sit on our hands after we are saved we have to submit to God and God will give us the power to do things after that but
01:08:4901:08:49 - I don’t know I just want to talk about the progressive nature of it a little more anything to add or are we good on
01:08:5501:08:55 - on this idea of regeneration you think no you you can go on all right great so the next one of these things
01:09:0701:09:07 - that demonstrates the roles of the trinity in the plan of God that we’re going to talk about here is going to be
01:09:1301:09:13 - the Walk of the believer now this one should be familiar for anyone who has watched uh our series on parapo theology
01:09:2101:09:21 - the section of the Bible basic series on ichus talking about the Christian walk um we did that one a couple years back
01:09:2901:09:29 - before we were doing this present study which is part one of that series on ikus that one was part 6A and so we spent oh
01:09:3701:09:37 - a nice long time I think there was like 90 some odd videos in that series talking about that study but that entire
01:09:4401:09:44 - thing was talking about the Walk of the believer and so to Riff on what we just talked about in the last section talking
01:09:5101:09:51 - about regeneration I was making the point that we have duties and responsibilities and expectations and
01:09:5801:09:58 - things that we should strive for as Christians past just being saved past just having that indwelling of the Holy
01:10:0401:10:04 - Spirit Well when we are indwelled uh the holy spirit gives us spiritual gifts God gives us talents and
01:10:1101:10:11 - aptitudes and we have a purpose in the body of Christ and that is very much part of what this idea of walking um for
01:10:1901:10:19 - us as Christians is uh going on our pilgrimage to Zion being soers here in the world all of these things point us
01:10:2701:10:27 - to that responsibility we have to set our eyes set our eyes heavenward and kind of put our heads down and uh do
01:10:3601:10:36 - what God wants us to do right and that looks different for different people common Pitfall there is somehow thinking
01:10:4201:10:42 - that all people have to be the same in this well God calls us all to different things know that’s that passage comes up
01:10:4901:10:49 - a lot 1 Corinthians chap 12 talking about how um uh just using that that metaphor of the human body some people
01:10:5601:10:56 - are hands some people are eyes some people are feet and so on um so what this looks like for human like all all
01:11:0401:11:04 - of the members of the body of Christ in very detailed specifics can be different but the walk generally speaking as we
01:11:1301:11:13 - talked about in that other study we talked about how it’s all centered around spiritual growth and so this is
01:11:2001:11:20 - uh one of the the mantras I would say that ichus repeats all over the place he reads
01:11:2501:11:25 - studies in Bible basics or any of the big studies the Peter series you’ll see Dr lug B emphasize this three-fold
01:11:3301:11:33 - process of learning believing applying the truth and then helping other people do the same right so that learning the
01:11:4001:11:40 - truth and then applying it being tested to refine our faith and then growing into the Ministries that God wants for
01:11:4701:11:47 - us all three of these things are somewhat sequential but they also are Cycles they feed back into each other
01:11:5301:11:53 - and that process of spiritual growth is what God wants of us that is how we walk with him um as soers here in this world
01:12:0301:12:03 - so that’s the overview now how this deals with the roles since again that’s the point of going through all of these
01:12:1101:12:11 - um all of these ways in which the roles of the Trinity are demonstrated in the plan of God well when we think of this
01:12:1701:12:17 - in terms of sanctification in terms of the standard we are trying to meet the father is the one who has adopted the
01:12:2501:12:25 - position of authority within the Trinity is the one who sets the standard of Holiness um so he is um we’ve used the
01:12:3401:12:34 - analogy before of him being like the king and Jesus Christ being like the Crown Prince someone who intercedes for
01:12:4001:12:40 - us before the king well the law of the land the scepter of authority The Sword of Justice you want to think of these
01:12:4701:12:47 - things are sort of in the father’s hands he’s the one who sets the perfect standard for us that we ought to live up
01:12:5401:12:54 - to and then Jesus Christ is the one that we can see is our role model so we have an
01:13:0101:13:01 - entire lesson um in that last series I mentioned uh about Role Models I think several weeks in fact and of course we
01:13:0801:13:08 - talked about people like Moses and Elijah and David but we did end with Jesus himself and that is no mistake
01:13:1501:13:15 - because Jesus is our elder brother in the faith he is the first fruits of the Resurrection but for us he ought to be
01:13:2201:13:22 - our final role model um he lived a perfect life and we can emulate that if we study his his actions and how he
01:13:3201:13:32 - thought about God and doing the will of the father in the gospels he is the perfect person for us to emulate as a
01:13:3801:13:38 - role model as we go through walking our own lives and how that relates to the Trinity role is because Jesus came into
01:13:4701:13:47 - the world right as the one in the Trinity who we see the accessible member the second person of the Trinity as we
01:13:5401:13:54 - thought about in Prior lessons in this study he’s the one who we can set our eyes upon because he is like us he
01:14:0301:14:03 - understands us and more to the point for us we can see him he manifests himself to us in the world and then just as
01:14:1001:14:10 - always the holy spirit is there behind the scenes giving us the power to live as God would have us live and so uh just
01:14:1901:14:19 - talked about this in our our last discussion here on regeneration as well we do everything we do in the Christian
01:14:2601:14:26 - Life through the power of the spirit so if you think about um this in terms of like lifting weight well maybe we are
01:14:3401:14:34 - responsible only for a small fraction of that weight and the Holy Spirit does all the heavy lifting for us that’s the
01:14:4001:14:40 - appropriate way to think about this we have to choose to lift up the object but we have a great deal of mechanical
01:14:4701:14:47 - advantage if you will through the indwelling Holy Spirit who actually does all of the hard work for us if we just
01:14:5301:14:53 - submit ourselves to to him and so in this way walking how God wants us to walk we look to the father to understand
01:15:0201:15:02 - that perfect standard that’s been set uh to to keep our eyes upon uh really Perfection you know we have this verse
01:15:1001:15:10 - in in I think it’s Matthew 548 I want to say how good my memory is yeah we have the standard for us is perfection right
01:15:2001:15:20 - just as your father in Heaven is perfect right and so you see in verse directly actually kind of glad it’s that good at
01:15:2701:15:27 - Cross didn’t even remember it was this specific but you can see this is why we say the father is the standard here
01:15:3401:15:34 - right um now if we go look at the context of this in The Sermon on the Mount that’s what Matthew Chapter 5 is
01:15:3901:15:39 - um Jesus speaking here um well that’s the very last verse here but um he’s talking about the standard for us um in
01:15:4901:15:49 - fact the context of this is loving our enemies that’s what comes right in this section here and so the father is the
01:15:5601:15:56 - standard that we set our eyes upon and Jesus is the one who we look to as a role model that we can see and the
01:16:0401:16:04 - spirit is the one who gives us the power to do this that is the division of labor between the Trinity roles in the
01:16:1201:16:12 - specific area so Audi do you have additional thoughts to add I believe you meant to say that the
01:16:2001:16:20 - father sets the standard not that he is the standard you know so oh okay yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah you’re right because
01:16:2601:16:26 - we can never be the father of course yes yes um there’s there’s something that just occurred to me one reason that
01:16:3301:16:33 - we’re exploring these things is that um as I as I sometimes say when I am trying to summarize the whole business of the
01:16:4201:16:42 - Bible is that the Bible is concerned with telling us what God’s plan is and in order to give that plan substance and
01:16:5201:16:52 - um reliability it tells us who God is what kind of person he is and what his abilities are like because I mean why
01:17:0101:17:01 - would you sign up if I think some of us would understand what it means when a a startup says hey come work for me you
01:17:0801:17:08 - know you’d be like doing what what what what what is your startup about and you know why should I believe that tying my
01:17:1701:17:17 - um economic wellbeing to you is a good idea you know then if it’s joining an army what is the army is purpose because
01:17:2501:17:25 - it’s my life I’m actually signing off to you do you have good reasoning for the the the the strategies and the tactics
01:17:3601:17:36 - that you employ and what is the purpose for which I’m fighting and you know these these things will be will be made
01:17:4501:17:45 - clear in the nature of whoever the Army is fighting for So the plan of God is what the Bible is really concerned with
01:17:5501:17:55 - but while it is really concerned with that it also um goes on to explain to us why that plan is something we should
01:18:0301:18:03 - sign up for by telling us who God is and what his nature is so when we look at the things like this the the the
01:18:1001:18:10 - distribution of duties or the division of labor so to speak in the Trinity the various roles that each person of the
01:18:1701:18:17 - Trinity um self assigns we get to learn why we can and trust that the
01:18:2501:18:25 - things that we are engaging in are worth it the work of the believer for example is one of the hardest things for
01:18:3301:18:33 - believers to deal with we the standard of Holiness that we’re talking about is when we say ridiculously high it’s
01:18:4201:18:42 - not that it’s unreasonable it is that all you have to do is think about it to decide you don’t want to do it it’s too
01:18:5001:18:50 - hard for human beings which is exactly why the Bible tells us about the fact that the Trinity is so involved in it
01:18:5701:18:57 - without the father setting a standard for Holiness then what are we really doing we have no direction for the
01:19:0301:19:03 - choices we’re making but because he sets a standard now we know the direction in which we’re going but he does not just
01:19:1101:19:11 - set standards and leave us to just go figure it out by ourselves then the holy spirit is there
01:19:1701:19:17 - to tell us look I know you so essentially what we’re seeing is you’re cutting in and out a bit um
01:19:2801:19:28 - I’m only catching like every third word maybe I don’t know maybe just give it a second try again um I am so sorry I have
01:19:3701:19:37 - no idea how I can fix that it’s probably going to just be a network problem okay I mean maybe just try saying what you
01:19:4201:19:42 - said for like the last 15 seconds again or so if you could remember back um okay um I I think what I what I was saying is
01:19:5101:19:51 - that it actually is the fact that we see the involvement of the Lord in this work of the believer that we have confidence
01:19:5901:19:59 - that it can be done we see how the Lord is engaged in it we don’t see just the role of the father that he sets the
01:20:0501:20:05 - standard of Holiness although that is important without the father setting a standard of Holiness we wouldn’t know in
01:20:1001:20:10 - what direction our choices ought to be going but he sets the standard and some people do stop at that point and then
01:20:1701:20:17 - they get lost in the in in legalism thinking that it’s just about meeting a certain standard standard of Ethics but
01:20:2301:20:23 - that’s not just what this is about the father sets out what these standards are the son models them for us showing us
01:20:2901:20:29 - that it’s not just a set of rules but that in the way he lives his life we see this this very intimate connection to
01:20:3701:20:37 - the father living out those standards that he has set but we also see he does not do that by himself he keeps pointing
01:20:4401:20:44 - out the fact that it is the father who does this in him so we see the spirit working it out in him and promising to
01:20:5101:20:51 - do it with anybody who is willing to walk the same path as the Lord Jesus did so the the point here is not just oh
01:21:0001:21:00 - this is how the Trinity distributes duties in in this sort of matter in this in this sort
01:21:0801:21:08 - of example but that the very walk of the believer is very intimately um the Trinity is very intimately involved in
01:21:1801:21:18 - the very walk of the believer so the father does give us a direction for which to which our choice should be you
01:21:2501:21:25 - know trending and the sun gives us a model something to say this is how this is
01:21:3301:21:33 - what the father is talking about and the spirit says I know you can do it I helped the Lord Jesus do it I can help
01:21:4101:21:41 - you too and we know the Lord Jesus lived a perfect life so that tells us that even if we do not quite hit Perfection
01:21:4801:21:48 - because of our sin nature the holy spirit is very very he if he could help this human being even though he was God
01:21:5701:21:57 - live the perfect life he certainly can help us manage coming close to it so this is this is what we’re supposed to
01:22:0401:22:04 - be taking away from this that things like what we’re discussing right now show us how intimately
01:22:1001:22:10 - involved in this plan of God that we we will be discussing in other things that we get into when we when we’re done
01:22:1801:22:18 - discussing theology we’ll probably talk about angelology and whatnot as we see the plan of God unfolding we see how the
01:22:2501:22:25 - Trinity is intimately involved in realizing it both on an individual level and on a collective level so that is one
01:22:3401:22:34 - thing I thought to point out at this juncture sure something you brought up as well is that Jesus Christ in his
01:22:4101:22:41 - kosis was empowered by the spirit in the same way that we will as we have to function as as Believers in the here and
01:22:4901:22:49 - now um so I know I kind of made a big deal out of this I can’t remember for this last lesson or a couple back that
01:22:5501:22:55 - when Jesus lived his life he was indwelled by the spirit in the same sort of way that we are and so I think
01:23:0301:23:03 - sometimes people tend to have this idea in their head well Jesus was God so of course he’s holy and stuff I mean I know
01:23:0901:23:09 - I’m being really vague in that but that’s sort of the point people are really vague about it they just say well
01:23:1401:23:14 - you know they draw a qualitative difference between themselves and Jesus and just say well of course Jesus is
01:23:2001:23:20 - going to be holy right because he’s God and they just kind of wave their hand at it and they don’t think about what that
01:23:2501:23:25 - means exactly and so it is true that Jesus did not have a sin nature um he was born of uh a virgin and one of the
01:23:3501:23:35 - reasons why that’s important it’s not just a miraculous sign in a prophecy um ikus uh interprets the Bible uh to
01:23:4401:23:44 - to maybe interpret is not quite the right word um ichus holds the position and I think it’s a good inference to
01:23:5101:23:51 - make that the sin nature passed down through the male line um one reason for that is because it makes the Virgin
01:23:5601:23:56 - birth very theologically significant right but long story short no matter how you get there Jesus Christ did not have
01:24:0201:24:02 - a sin nature we on the other hand do have sin Natures um there’s this passage here in 1 John chapter 1 um it says that
01:24:1001:24:10 - if we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us now uh this kind of often gets missed by
01:24:1801:24:18 - interpreters I think this without sin bit here is talking about the nature um if we claim that sin does not dwell
01:24:2701:24:27 - within us that would be a little bit of a looser translation here that is a different thing than what verse 10 talks
01:24:3301:24:33 - about here if we claim we have not sinned right so our sinful actions come out of a sinful nature we have that
01:24:4101:24:41 - sinful nature all of us Jesus did not um actually interestingly Adam and Eve didn’t start out with the sin nature
01:24:4801:24:48 - either um so what this brings into US is that um when we talk about Jesus resisting temptation right that is a way
01:24:5801:24:58 - in in which the uh he had these pressures put upon him and he faced these trials in the desert Satan
01:25:0401:25:04 - tempting him with these things um Jesus didn’t have a sin nature stabbing him in the back quite in the same manner that
01:25:1001:25:10 - we do but he still faced very real pressure and Temptation now where this kind of leads us is to this idea of
01:25:1801:25:18 - false notion I should be very clear because we have a sin nature this idea of this perfect standard that we’re
01:25:2501:25:25 - called to aie mentioned when he started talking this idea of it is a hard hard thing to live up to right if you take it
01:25:3301:25:33 - seriously and that’s one of the things I think I should emphasize here too is there’s very many people in the
01:25:3801:25:38 - Christian Life who say oh you know like uh why so serious basically um you know you’ve been saved oh look we can all
01:25:4601:25:46 - love each other in perfect unity and fellowship in the body of Christ and God wants us to be happy and and you know
01:25:5301:25:53 - things like this this and and they put the emphasis there and it’s true God loves us God does want us to be joyful
01:26:0101:26:01 - in him but it’s not joyful as in a lack of problems or a lack of struggle is that we are supposed to have that
01:26:1001:26:10 - perspective that because we are saved eternally we shouldn’t let anything dampen our Spirits here in the world
01:26:1601:26:16 - because it’s all just temporary right it’s it’s a very different thing is what I’m trying to say and when we get to
01:26:2101:26:21 - this idea of sinlessness and perfection we need to actually keep our eyes fixed on how perfect that standard truly is
01:26:3001:26:30 - and I I think we are very bad at this and this isn’t just to dig at oh leodan churches and we’re so much better than
01:26:3701:26:37 - that right this is a struggle for all human beings for our entire lives is is internally metabolizing and keeping our
01:26:4501:26:45 - eyes set upon the Perfection of God and and understanding that yes we have a sin nature no that doesn’t mean that we have
01:26:5301:26:53 - any excuse or license to sin as an oh I’m sorry God I can’t help it it’s it’s you know it’s the devil made me do it
01:27:0001:27:00 - right or the sin nature inside me made me do it we have free will part of what that means is that we fight that that
01:27:0701:27:07 - conflict we mentioned you know that passage Galatians chapter 5 I brought up before we have to actually actively be
01:27:1301:27:13 - resisting um even to the point of shedding blood I think that’s Hebrews chapter 4 is it Hebrews 124
01:27:2101:27:21 - Hebrews 124 or 412 yeah it’s 124 um so we have to very actively strive and resist the sin nature within us but just
01:27:3201:27:32 - because we as our broken finite human beings with a sin nature can never achieve that standard of perfection
01:27:4201:27:42 - doesn’t mean that’s not the standard for us and just let me repeat that is still the standard even given where we are and
01:27:4901:27:49 - so I think a lot of the times people make peace with this way more than they should they say throw up their hands a
01:27:5601:27:56 - bit and saywell we are imperfect it’s impossible for us to be perfect that is true right false Doctrine paganism is
01:28:0301:28:03 - this idea that it is possible for human beings to be completely sinless and in practice how this plays out in people
01:28:0901:28:09 - who say they believe something like this throughout history is they just redefine sin to be a very narrow category of
01:28:1401:28:14 - things that they don’t particularly struggle with and then they look down on everyone else and say well look at me
01:28:2001:28:20 - I’m sinless and it’s just it’s very false anyone who is honest about Sin especially sins of the Mind sins of
01:28:2701:28:27 - thought it becomes clear real fast that complete sinlessness is straight up impossible for us as humans have you
01:28:3401:28:34 - never thought an an unpleasant thought about someone else or or been angry if someone does something that is it’s not
01:28:4201:28:42 - just like it’s not just your feelings like they did something objectively wrong to you they wronged you um you
01:28:4701:28:47 - know they stole from you or slandered you or things like this and do we react more than maybe we should right I guess
01:28:5301:28:53 - anyone with even the slightest sliver of humility understands that this idea of no sin ever is a standard that you know
01:29:0401:29:04 - human beings cannot ever meet and so take a step back I don’t want to ramble too long here where I’m going with this
01:29:1001:29:10 - is that the point is not to be crushed by this uh but the point is to look to Jesus Christ as the model for the one
01:29:1901:29:19 - who lived this life that we are in but he did it perfectly but he did it through the exact same means that we do
01:29:2601:29:26 - that is through the indwelling Holy Spirit resting on the power of God rather than his own human flesh right um
01:29:3501:29:35 - so I you know we could talk more about the differences um between the sin nature and and how the sin nature and
01:29:4101:29:41 - the devil work together to tempt us and lead us into sin and how our Free Will is still involved in this and how Jesus
01:29:4701:29:47 - is a little different because he didn’t have a sin nature but where I was going with this for the most part was that
01:29:5301:29:53 - Jesus Jesus actually lived this life as our model perfectly and just because we can’t live up to that doesn’t mean that
01:30:0101:30:01 - that’s not the standard that that’s not where we should be shooting uh where our uh direction finder if you will should
01:30:0901:30:09 - be pointing um so I just thought that was kind of a critical point to make here is that it is not supposed to crush
01:30:1501:30:15 - us but we’re supposed to look to Jesus as our example as our role model um not being despondent about how how far short
01:30:2301:30:23 - we fall but resting in the power of the spirit to even if we get down and we stumble to pick ourselves back up and
01:30:3001:30:30 - keep on going to keep on treading that path towards Zion because that’s what God calls us to um so I know I just
01:30:3701:30:37 - rambled for a lot there I think it’s all pretty relevant stuff but a you have anything to to add no I think you really
01:30:4401:30:44 - covered it okay good deal Okay so so the next one that we’re going to talk about about how the Trinity
01:30:5701:30:57 - roles are relevant in the plan of God and how they are demonstrated in the plan of God in human history he talking
01:31:0501:31:05 - about the virtues of the believer so we talked about how we are uh we have this regeneration through the Holy Spirit we
01:31:1201:31:12 - have new life um God makes us new people we put off the old man and put on the new man we then strive after the
01:31:2101:31:21 - standard that God sets for us right uh looking to the father to set that standard of Holiness emulating the son
01:31:2801:31:28 - through the power of the holy spirit it’s what we just talked about and now we’re going to talk about the virtues of
01:31:3401:31:34 - the believer so what things do we exercise through the power of the spirit as we live our lives walking towards
01:31:4201:31:42 - Zion um to use that pilgrimage analogy here and so uh as it relates to the Trinity roles the father gives us the
01:31:5001:31:50 - example of love in that he sent his son who’s the object of our faith as in we have faith in Jesus Christ both who he
01:31:5901:31:59 - was and what he did for us on the cross so that we look forward to our Resurrection with a hope empowered by
01:32:0601:32:06 - the Holy Spirit and so one reason why you know I when I first read this I was squinting at a bit I was like well what
01:32:1201:32:12 - does the Holy Spirit have to do with hope exactly right like why is the holy spirit necessary for us to understand
01:32:1801:32:18 - this hope right because like the father sending the son in love that that’s kind of obvious right the son being the
01:32:2401:32:24 - object of our faith it’s kind of obvious but what does the Holy Spirit have to do with hope and this gets to that sense
01:32:3001:32:30 - that I was talking about before about how spiritual things are um discerned through the spirit right and so for us
01:32:3901:32:39 - to have that that understanding of Eternal hope and the hope of our Salvation we would say that that future
01:32:4601:32:46 - expectations of of things not yet happening right we say we have a certain expectation that’s the difference
01:32:5301:32:53 - between our Christian hope and the sort of flimsy sort of probabilistic Hope of the world like I hope it doesn’t rain
01:33:0001:33:00 - tomorrow is very different than I hope I will be resurrected on the last day because we have certain knowledge in the
01:33:0801:33:08 - promises of God it’s a different concept entirely right um and uh I don’t actually think there’s a different word
01:33:1401:33:14 - in Greek sometimes uh uh different languages have more or less precise language for things um as in in English
01:33:2201:33:22 - and Greek alike I believe we’re using the same word to mean kind of both sort of like things that that we kind of
01:33:2901:33:29 - might come about but aren’t certain and this certain expectation of future things that’s what we mean when we talk
01:33:3501:33:35 - about Christian hope but for us to properly metabolize this kind of the point we can only do that through the
01:33:4301:33:43 - quickening of our sight empowered by the indwelling Holy Spirit otherwise we have no ability to kind of understand what
01:33:5101:33:51 - this future expectation means the spirit also Comforts us um you know we we can rest in him it’s a good way of thinking
01:33:5901:33:59 - about it right and one final note that I thought about helping explain this hope is that the holy spirit is the Seal of
01:34:0601:34:06 - our Salvation um just how they they is used to be a really big deal in Antiquity uh you know before we had
01:34:1201:34:12 - email addresses and what have you is how do you know that the letter is from the person that it says it’s from right they
01:34:2001:34:20 - would have these these wax seals that they would press with um a stamp you know a bearing a perhaps a particular
01:34:2901:34:29 - symbol or pattern um and this was sort of a symbol of authenticity a proof of you know the uh the that the the the
01:34:4001:34:40 - contents of the letter were who they were saying there from and things like this but that seal is supposed to be
01:34:4601:34:46 - sealing us for the last day until the time of Resurrection the Holy Spirit when we are indwelt by him um we are
01:34:5501:34:55 - marked out as being um certain recipients of God’s grace right if we are sealed with the Holy Spirit Come the
01:35:0301:35:03 - Resurrection Day we will be resurrected unto eternal life with him he’s the symbol of our salvation of Our Hope
01:35:1101:35:11 - right okay so that’s faith hope and love right as I say I think hope maybe a little bit more of the difficult one
01:35:1701:35:17 - here to kind of wrap our heads around but kind of helps make sense when you understand that all spiritual things
01:35:2201:35:22 - including our understanding of the uh the certain realities to come uh as God’s plan comes to a close in in
01:35:3001:35:30 - creature history we only understand and can really believe those and metabolize them through the power of the spirit
01:35:3601:35:36 - that’s kind of what this one’s getting at um but I pulled up here um found this right before we roll a recording um this
01:35:4201:35:42 - study in the Peter series of ichus talked about imitating Christ so uh the 17th lesson in the Peters episol series
01:35:5001:35:50 - on ichus um actually talks about these three Keystone or Capstone virtues um and the verse reference here actually
01:35:5701:35:57 - comes from 1 Corinthians chapter 13 so this one you will probably recognize like if we go look at this passage um
01:36:0401:36:04 - you’ll probably recognize because it gets read at weddings a lot um this you know like talking about love is you know
01:36:1201:36:12 - all these things and love is patient and kind it’s not envy or boast it’s not arrogant or rude um does not insist on
01:36:1901:36:19 - its own Ray is not irritable or resentful all of these things you know love shares all things believes all
01:36:2401:36:24 - things hopes all things endures all things um all of these things commonly read like I said at weddings but in this
01:36:3201:36:32 - particular passage um Paul mentions three things actually he talks about faith hope and love and of these three
01:36:3901:36:39 - the greatest of these is love right that is what should characterize our lives and our walks as Christians um you know
01:36:4501:36:45 - to love in the same way that God loves us and sent his son uh to come down and live a perfect life and die for our sins
01:36:5301:36:53 - um you know first John chapter 4 talks about love as well but the point here is that all three of these virtues sort of
01:37:0101:37:01 - help us structure our life as Christians and so uh Faith um so I’m not going to read these paragraphs I do encourage
01:37:0801:37:08 - people to go find this this part of the study I think it helps cast light on why we think about these three virtues kind
01:37:1501:37:15 - of what what the significance of them in is but um we we have faith in Jesus Christ we hope into our eternal
01:37:2301:37:23 - salvation empowered by the eyesight um the quickening of our of our discernment through the Holy Spirit right and again
01:37:3201:37:32 - this is not an empty dream but of a reality unseen a certain expectation of things to come um and then our love um
01:37:4301:37:43 - comes through the outpouring and emulation of God’s love for us right so we love others because God first loved
01:37:5101:37:51 - us showing that love in sending his son to die for our sins upon the cross um so there’s more we could say here um but
01:37:5901:37:59 - I’m just going to go ahead and read uh this sort of not summary but uh uh this this phrasing of this right so uh in
01:38:0701:38:07 - this study in Peter in uh the 17th lesson here Dr Lille says that Faith focuses upon the trustworthiness of God
01:38:1401:38:14 - in faith we follow him because we trust him and we see this through Jesus Christ hope focuses on the Promises God has
01:38:2001:38:20 - made to us made understandable To Us by the holy spirit so we endure this life with joy because we have been promised a
01:38:2701:38:27 - far better one forever in eternity and then love appreciates what God put the father in parenthesis here what God the
01:38:3601:38:36 - father has done for us in sending Jesus Christ and reflects that gratitude to others we serve him and his church in
01:38:4201:38:42 - love because he first loved us so that’s sort of the idea behind how we we map out our lives as Christians living in
01:38:5001:38:50 - these virtues of faith hope and love uh kind of emul Ting the father The Father’s Love in that he sent his son
01:38:5701:38:57 - for us while we were yet sinners emulating the son um because we see him and we have faith in him he’s the one
01:39:0401:39:04 - who guides our belief because of what he did for us and then we hope towards our Eternal future through the power of the
01:39:1201:39:12 - holy spirit so Audi you have points to add to all of this yeah um I think it’s just one thing
01:39:2001:39:20 - really um the disposition is that there are really
01:39:2701:39:27 - three um I don’t know what what to call them polls I don’t think p is actually the
01:39:3301:39:33 - word but three things that we are called to as Christians in other
01:39:3901:39:39 - words if if if you could think of the Christian walk as a video game there are three
01:39:4701:39:47 - levels and uh attain beating those levels getting to those levels is kind of like rounding
01:39:5601:39:56 - out your walk so he matches um Professor Robert matches his levels to faith hope and love and is it like the the crowns
01:40:0601:40:06 - um you know of course yes but I I didn’t want to come right out of the gate of the crowns okay right right right each
01:40:1401:40:14 - each of those crowns matches to those levels so if you master the business of faith for example you win the crown of
01:40:2101:40:21 - righteousness you master the um level so to speak of Hope then you win the crown of life you beat the level
01:40:3001:40:30 - of love you win the crown of Glory that’s how they are matched so the the the idea here is this that Christianity
01:40:3701:40:37 - calls us to these three things they’re in fact sort of how we are supposed to understand the Christian calling these
01:40:4501:40:45 - three things are the the explanation or the embodiment in the three of them we come to understand what a Christian is
01:40:5501:40:55 - and what a Christian is called to so um when when when we see then this uh business
01:41:0501:41:05 - of uh the father demonstrating Love To Us by sending Christ who is the object of our faith and uh you know the hope
01:41:1701:41:17 - that the spirit himself um enables us to hold on to these things are speaking to what the Christian walk really is about
01:41:2801:41:28 - on the one hand we see in this world full of pain and trouble and whatnot that we are called to something and we
01:41:3901:41:39 - have access to something because God loves us enough to open that possibility for us he does not abandon us to
01:41:4801:41:48 - our insanity and our misery he does not abandon us to that so he demonstrates that Love To Us by giving us the gift of
01:41:5701:41:57 - Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ becomes the anchor for our faith we can hold on to him in confidence that this love that
01:42:0801:42:08 - God is showing to us through him will result in the promises the actualization of the promises that the holy spirit is
01:42:1801:42:18 - a taste of so to speak so again like I said coming to appreciate
01:42:2701:42:27 - how God works in realizing the plan that he has set out for us serves to encourage us in our walk of faith in
01:42:3801:42:38 - this world consider that the Hope thing that you’ve talked about for so long now is critical and that is why I sometimes
01:42:4601:42:46 - don’t quite I won’t say I don’t understand but I kind of pity those believers who do not look up who who are
01:42:5401:42:54 - caught in the issues of this world and think that somehow our our job is to make the world a more delightful place
01:43:0001:43:00 - to live in it’s like you miss the things that God is actually calling you to the better things that he has prepared for
01:43:0801:43:08 - example you can never make the Millennium the Millennium is a gift that the Lord is going to give to us when
01:43:1401:43:14 - Jesus Christ comes back and conquers the world takes over the rule what he will do then we will never be able to do
01:43:2201:43:22 - however hard we tried we cannot change this world from an arid Wasteland into the Garden of Eden like Jesus is
01:43:3101:43:31 - going to do we’re never going to make animals become very friendly toward each other we will witness lions and wolves
01:43:4001:43:40 - consume sheep and the like until we die that’s what’s going to keep happening when the Lord Jesus returns Everything
01:43:5001:43:50 - Will Change now that’s a promise that he makes to us and the Millennium is not even the it’s not even close to being
01:43:5601:43:56 - the best that the Lord calls us to we are also presented with the hope of Eternity the Eternal State a perfect
01:44:0601:44:06 - Universe where there is absolutely nothing on toward nothing unrighteous we we have them promised a
01:44:1201:44:12 - resurrection body which does not have a sin nature no impetus no no impulse to sin against the Lord I don’t know how
01:44:1901:44:19 - many people would not be relieved by the end of this fight that this constant fight we have with ourselves to do the
01:44:2801:44:28 - right thing which we know we should do which we want to do but which we frequently don’t do so these are these
01:44:3701:44:37 - are things that we we we place our Hope on that we will come to these things eventually and the Holy Spirit is the
01:44:4501:44:45 - one who assures us that it’s going to be the case that we will realize or we will have these these promises realized in
01:44:5501:44:55 - our experience and Jesus Christ and his work everything we learn about him is supposed to empower our
01:45:0301:45:03 - confidence encourage us to continue to maintain the confidence that this this hope this hope that we have the promises
01:45:1101:45:11 - we have been given will be brought to life so again my my my my contribution is that we we remember that this work
01:45:2201:45:22 - that we have been called to is made possible by the fact that the Trinity is so intimately connected with it in this
01:45:2901:45:29 - way the father has made this work possible by demonstrating his love to us giving us Jesus Christ who has become
01:45:3601:45:36 - the object of our of our faith we can look to him just as um Hebrews 12 verse um verse one tells us as we look to him
01:45:4801:45:48 - we are being also made into the same image this is where Corinthians 3 comes in and being made into the same image as
01:45:5701:45:57 - him guarantees to us the hope that the holy spirit is encouraging us or empowering us to hold on to in a world
01:46:0601:46:06 - full of disappointment and futility yeah that’s uh that’s what I think I can say yeah I agree completely
01:46:1501:46:15 - and I should say that our hope is a natural outflowing of the faith that we have if we really believe that Jesus Jus
01:46:2301:46:23 - died for us and paid for all sin and conquered death on the cross hope is natural right so these
01:46:3001:46:30 - things are not separable boxes but they’re all related um and this is something I think I about the right way
01:46:3601:46:36 - to say it but hope is completely logical you know how I don’t know if you’ve ever come across this but um uh Carl Marx is
01:46:4501:46:45 - famous for calling religion Christianity specifically the opiate of the masses I don’t know if you ever heard this um and
01:46:5301:46:53 - uh there’s another pretty famous writer coming out of the Soviet period um his name is George Orwell you know he’s
01:47:0001:47:00 - famous for writing the book 1984 he also wrote something called Animal Farm where one of the characters not to get too far
01:47:0701:47:07 - into the details basically presents religion as this fantasy Utopia that couldn’t possibly exist it’s just it’s
01:47:1501:47:15 - something that people just want to believe right it’ be nice to the world we’re actually like this but you know
01:47:2001:47:20 - it’s just a bunch of people who uh it’s unrealistic fantasy right well the hope that we have as Believers what I’m
01:47:2801:47:28 - trying to contrast there is that it is actually 100% rational to have joy and hope for the Eternal things that God
01:47:3801:47:38 - promises us if we actually have faith in Jesus Christ and in what God has done for us because if we have faith and we
01:47:4601:47:46 - actually believe it well we know that God has already told us if we believe in the promises of God We Trust God’s
01:47:5201:47:52 - character character the demonstration of his love that he sent to us what Jesus did for us on the cross if we actually
01:47:5801:47:58 - believe that then in fact it’s irrational not to be joyful and have blessed expectation of things to come
01:48:0601:48:06 - that doesn’t mean that it will be easy but my point is the hard bit is actually believing in not that hope is somehow
01:48:1201:48:12 - like I don’t know that people it’s kind of easy to get stuck down here in the mud and and the struggle and the fight
01:48:1901:48:19 - like AI said and to lose sight of that but the whole point is is that if we really believe what God has done for us
01:48:2601:48:26 - it is natural for us to have that expectation of God’s promises coming to full fruition uh in the Millennium in
01:48:3501:48:35 - eternity where truly this world will be set to rights in a way that it just cannot be until them so all of these
01:48:4201:48:42 - things feed into each other as AI has has has put well all of these things are that that demonstrations of God’s
01:48:4901:48:49 - intimate connection to the plan that he’s working out for us here um and I do think that this sentiment that we have
01:48:5801:48:58 - of of these things coming together um these Capstone virtues I did find that um the the that’s actually Peter chapter
01:49:0601:49:06 - 18 talks about you know the crown of righteousness life and Glory corresponding to these virtues of um uh
01:49:1401:49:14 - faith hope and love well this is what we work towards as we work out our faith in this world um so we have a a couple more
01:49:2301:49:23 - here to go but we are giving it that sense of of even on top of Salvation even after we’ve been saved the spirit
01:49:3001:49:30 - has made us new people we’ve been regenerated through the power of God we’re not done yet this is one of those
01:49:3601:49:36 - ways in which we continually move forward in the Christian Life through the power of God right God’s plan for us
01:49:4201:49:42 - as individuals um that’s what we’ve been going through God’s uh Trinity roles as demonstrated in God’s plan for human
01:49:4901:49:49 - history right and this is specifically God’s plan for us as human beings you know individuals
01:49:5501:49:55 - composing the human population so that’s where we’ll cut for this one
01:50:0201:50:02 - and we only have a couple more left here so before we get to those just say that you can see here that we are now in this
01:50:0901:50:09 - section talking about you know after we become Believers after the Holy Spirit has given us a new heart we still walk
01:50:1701:50:17 - through this life right we ought to demonstrate these virtues we have spiritual gifts what we’re going to talk
01:50:2301:50:23 - about next uh we pray in the faith um as Believers that’s part of our our job and our responsibility these are things that
01:50:3001:50:30 - we do as Believers um past step one right I’m just going to keep emphasizing that because it’s important for us to
01:50:3801:50:38 - keep that in mind um that all of these things we build on top of that Foundation that we start with when we
01:50:4401:50:44 - have our initial belief so now we’re going to be talking about the Trinity role roles as it
01:50:5301:50:53 - relates to spiritual gifts for us as Believers so um we kind of talked this last section about the virtues that we
01:51:0201:51:02 - are to live our lives by as Christians but one of the things that we are supposed to do after we have been saved
01:51:1101:51:11 - and after we have grown to maturity is to fulfill the Ministries that have been assigned to us by God and within the
01:51:1901:51:19 - division of labor of the trinity in the they have adopted the spiritual gifts themselves are given by the spirit so we
01:51:2801:51:28 - might say through the power of the Holy Spirit the specific Ministries that we are assigned are given to us by the son
01:51:3701:51:37 - and we can only carry these out under the power of the spiritual gifts given to us by the spirit as in we cannot do
01:51:4501:51:45 - these things on our own power or our own authority uh because we have been delegated power and authority from God
01:51:5301:51:53 - and then finally the specific effects of our Ministries are decreed by the father and so that means that the way in which
01:52:0101:52:01 - our efforts in a spiritual sense so the things that we do to help support the church or help support the teaching of
01:52:1001:52:10 - the word of God or help our brothers and sisters in material need all of those things how they are used how they
01:52:1701:52:17 - integrate with all of the efforts of the other thousands millions and billions of believers across the world that is
01:52:2501:52:25 - determined by God the father in his perfect plan that takes everything into account and has for ordained the best
01:52:3301:52:33 - possible outcome for knowing all of our choices before we make them and so the passage that talks about what we are
01:52:4201:52:42 - discussing here the um the roles of the trinity in the spiritual gifts and how our spiritual gifts function comes in 1
01:52:5001:52:50 - Corinthians chapter 12 which is that that chapter that talks about the body of Christ and so in verse four it says
01:52:5701:52:57 - that we have a variety of gifts but the same spirit so the spiritual gifts come from the power of the indwelling Holy
01:53:0401:53:04 - Spirit there’s a variety of Ministries but the same Lord that’s Jesus Christ assigning us the thing the task that we
01:53:1201:53:12 - are to do as our commanding officer and then there are variety then there are varieties of effects but the same God
01:53:1901:53:19 - who works all things and all persons and that is the father perfectly incorporating what we do in our service
01:53:2701:53:27 - to the body of Christ into his plan for how things work out in the world uh taking everything into account and
01:53:3401:53:34 - making sure that everything fits together to fulfill the purposes uh that will stand eternally so these are how
01:53:4301:53:43 - the roles of the Trinity function in the spiritual gifts of the believer and I guess just one last thing to say is that
01:53:5101:53:51 - all Believers have spiritual gifts this isn’t just something for maybe we would think pastors or missionaries or
01:53:5801:53:58 - something like that all of us have a role to play in the plan of God here um and so this applies to everyone in the
01:54:0701:54:07 - body of Christ equally now we are called to different things but that we need to fulfill our Ministries as Christians is
01:54:1401:54:14 - a universal across all people in the church aie do you have uh more points to Riff on with regards to this
01:54:2301:54:23 - uh I guess not not really I don’t think I have much to say about it um I think I think you made the the uh distinctions
01:54:3501:54:35 - quite clearly or at least you made you made it clear exactly how the Trinity is operating in this um the the the
01:54:4401:54:44 - perspective from which I have continue to come is always that we see that this is all the Lord
01:54:5301:54:53 - investing in this whole thing so it’s not just that we are uh how shall I put it for example
01:55:0101:55:01 - when we’re talking about fulfilling our ministry in this life we we essentially think it’s all about what we choose to
01:55:0801:55:08 - do and we we feel like we have this huge burden of responsibility which we we should be conscious of the fact that
01:55:1401:55:14 - it’s a huge responsibility but on the other hand it is the Lord working all of this out the spirit is giving us spec
01:55:2201:55:22 - special spiritual abilities to do certain things and the Lord Jesus is not leaving us to just figure out what we
01:55:2901:55:29 - want to do with these abilities but specifically assigning us roles to play in the church and then we don’t just
01:55:3701:55:37 - play those roles and hope for the best nor do we play those roles and seek to produce certain effects there are
01:55:4501:55:45 - effects that will be assigned to what we do by the father himself so it you could see all the bases are covered is the
01:55:5401:55:54 - important thing it’s the critical thing how the how the Trinity is so invested in realizing this that nothing has been
01:56:0101:56:01 - left to chance and of course if anything was left to chance it wouldn’t happen at all and we haven’t been left to carry
01:56:0601:56:06 - all the burden by ourselves we are seeing that in all of this the Trinity is fully 100% invested so and I do think
01:56:1601:56:16 - actually now that you mention it the specific effects bit this can be really important for us to understand
01:56:2201:56:22 - that it’s not all on us the reception to what we say maybe people don’t believe um if you’ve read some of the Old
01:56:3201:56:32 - Testament prophets uh Jeremiah or some of the the prophets who were not warmly received by the people of Israel this is
01:56:4001:56:40 - what we mean by specific effects so you can have the best of intentions and go about your ministry diligently and that
01:56:4901:56:49 - doesn’t mean that people will listen and the amount of reception you have whether it’s lukewarm or people are really
01:56:5601:56:56 - excited or you’re ignored completely that is within the hands of the father um and no matter how we feel
01:57:0501:57:05 - in the matter we need to trust that God knows what he’s doing and so none of this is a mistake none of this is left
01:57:1401:57:14 - up to chance as Audie said now of course that doesn’t mean that it’s always easy for us to figure out you know what our
01:57:2001:57:20 - gifts are much less what Ministries are much less what we should think about the effect of our
01:57:2601:57:26 - Ministries we have a great deal of blindness due to our limited perspective as humans but regardless all three
01:57:3401:57:34 - members of the Trinity play this this part together to bring about the church building itself up in love everything
01:57:4201:57:42 - goes through the truth um Ephesians chapter 4 is a good cross reference uh for the the church building itself up in
01:57:4901:57:49 - love through the truth but spiritual gift play this important part in God’s plan
01:57:5501:57:55 - being worked out in the world in as much as we are the hands and feet of God in the world like that analogy in 1
01:58:0201:58:02 - Corinthians chapter 12 talks about so the last main thing we’re going to be talking about Trinity roles with
01:58:1301:58:13 - as it pertains to the plan of God being worked out is how our prayers uh are answered by the Trinity and how the
01:58:2101:58:21 - mechanics of this is sort of tied up in the roles that the members of the Trinity adopt so when we are told to
01:58:2901:58:29 - pray we are supposed to pray to the father and a cross reference from this comes in Matthew chapter 6 this is Jesus
01:58:3701:58:37 - uh telling us that we need to not pray on the street corners to be seen but we should pray in secret uh
01:58:4601:58:46 - earnestly lifting up our requests to the father um and the reason why this verse is quot in support of this point is
01:58:5301:58:53 - because well it makes it very clear that we are actually praying to the father um as opposed to Jesus Christ or the holy
01:59:0001:59:00 - spirit so he is the one generally speaking to whom we offer our prayers uh in the analogy that we used before when
01:59:0801:59:08 - we were explaining the Trinity roles a bit we mentioned how the father is kind of like the king he’s the one bearing
01:59:1501:59:15 - the authority of the godhead and the son is sort of like the Crown Prince or the advocate for us of the people he’s sort
01:59:2401:59:24 - of the intermediary the bridge between a God who is sort of far away in this position of authority that is uh sort of
01:59:3201:59:32 - unreachable by us and the Sun is the person who intercedes on our behalf um the visible one and so that is why um
01:59:4001:59:40 - you know as we talked about then while we’re pulling that back in now that’s why we pray in the name of the son
01:59:4601:59:46 - through what Jesus did on the cross we have access to the throne room of God through his blood that is how we might
01:59:5301:59:53 - phrase this and so uh this cross reference from John chapter 15 here uh coming about this uh
02:00:0202:00:02 - uh about the the same place that we talk about the analogy of the vine and the branches for us as Christians people
02:00:0902:00:09 - bearing fruit connecting uh ourselves to the vine of Christ and abiding in Christ uh well that is kind of the context of
02:00:1902:00:19 - this passage but it makes it clear that whatever we ask of the father in my name as in in the name of Jesus he may
02:00:2902:00:29 - give to us now of course we have to be praying within his will and so we don’t get to ask for anything and just attack
02:00:3502:00:35 - Jesus’s name on the end and say okay God give it to me you see I I uttered the magic words that’s not what we mean by
02:00:4102:00:41 - this but we mean that we understand that we have access to uh the throne room of God uh with Jesus Christ as our Advocate
02:00:5002:00:50 - because of what he did for us like that’s the mechanics of it we are allowed to present ourselves before the
02:00:5702:00:57 - father to lift up our requests before the father only because the son purchased access for us so to speak um
02:01:0402:01:04 - not that God wanted to condemn us and was just sitting there waiting for an excuse but this is the plan that God has
02:01:0902:01:09 - architected to make it so that sinful Humanity has access to that Throne I me it didn’t just happen it wasn’t like
02:01:1702:01:17 - Jesus was the one who did it and the father has been cold in aloof he was the one who sent the son but the point is we
02:01:2302:01:23 - have access to ask the father for our requests in prayer through what Jesus did for us and finally we kind of have
02:01:3202:01:32 - the ability to to do this you know our connection with God is mediated through the indwelling Holy Spirit we’ve talked
02:01:3902:01:39 - about this before as it pertains to spiritual baptism when we have this this process of regeneration when we put off
02:01:4802:01:48 - the old man and become indwelt by the Holy Spirit that’s kind of the connection we have to God with the Holy
02:01:5402:01:54 - Spirit indwelling us giving us eyes to see spiritual things well we pray through the power of the spirit um and
02:02:0302:02:03 - so example verse reference for this one Ephesians chapter 6 verse 18 talks about um us with all prayer and petition
02:02:1102:02:11 - praying at all times in the spirit and uh you know it’s not a complicated phenomenon here we know that whatever we
02:02:1902:02:19 - do positively in the spirit in sorry the Christian Life we do through the power of the spirit so when we work out things
02:02:2602:02:26 - in our Ministries when we love others as we ought it’s not entirely on our own power we do this but we are empowered by
02:02:3302:02:33 - God living within us and so too when we pray and so along the lines of the Trinity roles that we have been talking
02:02:4002:02:40 - about all this time we again see here the father in the position of authority the one to whom the prayers are offered
02:02:4702:02:47 - the son is the one we see the one who has purchased access to the throne room of God for us the one who intercedes on
02:02:5402:02:54 - our behalf the one we kind of keep our eyes on and address and then the spirit is the one who empowers it all behind
02:03:0102:03:01 - the scenes and makes it all possible connecting us to God uh through his indwelling presence in our lives so um I
02:03:0902:03:09 - think just as all the other examples we’ve talked about we can pretty clearly see the rules delineated here um all
02:03:1502:03:15 - three of them choosing to adopt these uh different positions these different things that they do with regard to the
02:03:2202:03:22 - prayers of Believers yet all completely unified in purpose uh to bring about how God wants us to pray uh as members of
02:03:3002:03:30 - his church because he does he commands us to pray it’s something that’s important for us to do uh to fulfill
02:03:3502:03:35 - God’s will in the world for us as Christians so I think that’s most of what I have to say here AI does anything
02:03:4102:03:41 - else jump out at you oh well um one critical thing I suppose is it’s not as if the scriptures
02:03:4902:03:49 - are saying that if you were to pray to the Lord Jesus you’ve done something wrong or if you were to make a request
02:03:5602:03:56 - of the Holy Spirit you have committed some sort of error the thing is that the way that the scriptures put it is more
02:04:0302:04:03 - like this is largely how it works again there’s that overlap the Lord Jesus is himself said if you asking if you ask me
02:04:1202:04:12 - anything in my name I will do it you know so it’s not as if we cannot pray to him
02:04:1902:04:19 - and being how the spirit uh functioned in um uh the days of of the of Israel and what he says in Hebrews chapter 3
02:04:3002:04:30 - and is the Dynamics of walking with him there’s nothing wrong with praying to him either the thing is that largely the
02:04:3802:04:38 - structure of it is that it is the father that we tend to pray to and we’re able to uh make our request this is something
02:04:4802:04:48 - really critical I think that because because of of of the sheer um ignorance of our times the ignorance of
02:04:5902:04:59 - the truth of of biblical truth of our times people take prayer for granted um if I did not
02:05:0802:05:08 - marry my Abby chances are that there would be no circumstances under which I would probably be able to approach her
02:05:1702:05:17 - father to say anything to him he simply is not in my circle
02:05:2402:05:24 - whatsoever so consider that sort of situation if you wanted to make a request of someone like that you
02:05:3102:05:31 - certainly can’t just walk into his office and say whatever you like to him you would need someone who would open
02:05:3802:05:38 - that door to you someone who would essentially say to him for my sake hear him out that’s what the Lord Jesus did
02:05:4602:05:46 - for us when we pray in the name of Jesus it’s there’s nothing wrong by with saying in the name of Jesus I ask for
02:05:5302:05:53 - such and such but do we really understand that what we’re saying is I want you to treat me as if I wear
02:06:0102:06:01 - Jesus in making this request of you and once you understand that this is literally what you’re doing with the
02:06:0902:06:09 - Father the next question you’ll ask yourself is would the Lord Jesus ask for what you’re asking for that’s another
02:06:1602:06:16 - thing it’s kind of our identity as servants we have been delegated this position to act on behalf of Jesus
02:06:2202:06:22 - Christ who’s ouring officer if you want to look at it like that so if you’re in the military let’s use the military
02:06:2802:06:28 - analogy here and your captain tells you okay private go to the Supply Depot and tell the clerk that we need you know
02:06:3702:06:37 - thus and so and you go and you’re gonna say hey my captain sent me you see what I’m saying like we are under his
02:06:4602:06:46 - authority but you can’t attach his name and then ask for things that obviously aren’t going to contribute to the
02:06:5402:06:54 - mission because the person it so I guess the clerk at the Supply Depot isn’t the best analogy for the father someone with
02:07:0002:07:00 - authority okay Congress um but the point here is that when we ask we really are asking like you said attaching ourselves
02:07:1002:07:10 - under the banner of Jesus Christ and what he did for us and so this is one of those reasons why we trying to think
02:07:1702:07:17 - about the right way to say this um it’s not like oh you need to be really careful when you pray because if you
02:07:2202:07:22 - pray wrong God’s going to Smite you or something that’s not what we’re talking about but what we are talking about is
02:07:2902:07:29 - that we need to understand what it is that prayer actually is when we make a request like this H how how closely
02:07:3702:07:37 - bound it is with this understanding of God listens to us only because we are washed clean in the blood of Christ and
02:07:4402:07:44 - so that’s why we shouldn’t attach anything improper to our prayers because how can anything improper
02:07:5202:07:52 - you know be be put before the father alongside the sacrifice of Jesus Christ no matter what we do it’s always going
02:07:5902:07:59 - to be dirty rags compared to the Cross right but the point is we really ought not put selfish requests or Petty things
02:08:0802:08:08 - or just things that obviously when you think about it you know you look at it sideways for even a second you just know
02:08:1402:08:14 - this isn’t the will of God we don’t want to pray those things because it is serious it’s important
02:08:2102:08:21 - stuff when we are asking we are asking in a formal sense in the name of Jesus according to what he has done for
02:08:2902:08:29 - us we need to make sure that we are acting as the servants God wants us to when we pray
02:08:3602:08:36 - too yeah yeah now perhaps someone might ask how do you know what’s proper um I don’t
02:08:4402:08:44 - know if you’ve wondered this and we could easily get off topic here but I shall keep it short if you wonder God I
02:08:5002:08:50 - don’t I don’t know how you’re working in this this situation what should I even pray um that’s kind of where the Holy
02:08:5602:08:56 - Spirit comes in right uh we are not uh expected to always know exactly what God’s will is so that we might pray
02:09:0402:09:04 - for it it is perfectly acceptable to say I trust you God I don’t know how you are working in this situation but I know
02:09:1202:09:12 - that you will you will have your your ends mat your purposes and goals completed and I just pray that the
02:09:2002:09:20 - outcome that is your will would come about and that you would give us Grace and peace in it to accept your will
02:09:2602:09:26 - understand have faith you know things like that well the spirit translates that for us we don’t have to have it all
02:09:3302:09:33 - figured out um and so that’s kind of where his support role comes in um this passage I know we we’ve brought this one
02:09:3902:09:39 - up I think a fair bit since we’ve been talking about here the role of the spirit in Romans chapter 8 um he is said
02:09:4602:09:46 - to intercede for us um you know we brought this up among other reasons uh because because it it obviously shows
02:09:5302:09:53 - that the spirit is a person not some sort of inpersonal force uh but this is the support role so he is a critical and
02:10:0102:10:01 - important part of this process as well especially making up for kind of our our limits and our our uh you know
02:10:0902:10:09 - insufficiency as human beings approaching god um the spirit is the one who gives us that that
02:10:1502:10:15 - connection yeah yeah all right well I think that is the
02:10:2102:10:21 - last of our main sections so we’re going to close off by talking about the caveats to kind of everything that we’ve
02:10:2802:10:28 - gone through here so the last thing we’re going to do before we close out uh this this section
02:10:3702:10:37 - we’ve been going through about the Trinity roles as demonstrated in God’s plan for human history and how he works
02:10:4402:10:44 - it out in all of these different ways we’ve been going through is we’re going to be talking a little bit about some of
02:10:4902:10:49 - the caveats here uh ways in which we just need to be careful when discussing these things to make sure that we are
02:10:5602:10:56 - just being uh uh accurate in how we handle the roles as God works in not in the world so we don’t put God into a box
02:11:0502:11:05 - more or less or we don’t try to confine each role and say well they they can’t do that you know it’s not you know it’s
02:11:1202:11:12 - not possible or whatever we are obviously very finite beings and we don’t understand God much less concept
02:11:2002:11:20 - just like eternity or Infinity um and so the point here is that all these examples we’ve been going through are
02:11:2802:11:28 - trying to help us explain and expound upon the doctrine of the Trinity as the Bible reveals it so we want to make sure
02:11:3402:11:34 - that the basis for our belief and our teaching on this subject is coming straight from scripture we aren’t making
02:11:4102:11:41 - up Doctrine we’re not trying to build these complicated philosophical systems and what have you we are just trying to
02:11:4802:11:48 - ascertain what it is the Bible says and teaches but the caveat here is that the division of labor that suggested by the
02:11:5602:11:56 - roles in the Bible is not necessarily meant to be strict in all cases and strict I would say in terms of a
02:12:0302:12:03 - scientific accounting of things or uh you know coloring Outside the Lines we might say in most of these and other
02:12:1102:12:11 - joint actions of the Trinity there’s overlap and further subdivision of responsibilities which is often only
02:12:1702:12:17 - hinted at in scripture so if we have the least bit of humility we ought to understand that that like the Bible is
02:12:2402:12:24 - not exhaustive in outlining exactly how the three members of the Trinity divide labor in everything that God does in the
02:12:3202:12:32 - world because there’s an awful lot that God does in the world um you know in fact if everything that Jesus did were
02:12:3802:12:38 - to be written down as said at the end of John’s gospel the world would not be able to contain it well how much more so
02:12:4402:12:44 - God in three persons everything that God does in the world like we’re we’re not going to see at all it is impossible and
02:12:5302:12:53 - so like I as I say if we have the least bit humility that ought to be obvious but in all these joint actions of the
02:12:5902:12:59 - trinity in their United purpose there’s overlap and further subdivision so when we talk about the father being
02:13:0502:13:05 - identified with love in that he sent the son to die for our sins while we were yet sinners it’s true that the father’s
02:13:1302:13:13 - decision to send the son you know as the one with authority positionally putting him in the world to save us was a
02:13:1902:13:19 - decision that showcases love magnified but the son loved us enough to die for us and the spirit loved us enough to
02:13:2702:13:27 - make that sacrifice possible so it’s not like the Son and the spirit don’t love us or can’t be identified with love and
02:13:3402:13:34 - so too with the other virtues and I’m kind of talking about this uh this this topic here that we went over and that’s
02:13:4102:13:41 - true in a whole bunch of things as well so you know the effects of the Ministries are decreed by the father in
02:13:4602:13:46 - his plan but the Ministries that were given are assigned by the son but you know he knows our talents and aptitudes
02:13:5202:13:52 - so he he’ll give us Ministries that bring about the effects decreed by the father like it’s all related is what
02:13:5702:13:57 - we’re saying here and so the wrong way to look at this is well the father can’t do that because or the son can’t do that
02:14:0402:14:04 - because or what have you because like I don’t know it violates the principle of fatherhood or you know people try to
02:14:1202:14:12 - build boxes like this and that’s what we’re saying you shouldn’t do in this these analogies because as we’ve said
02:14:1902:14:19 - before you should think in your head uh Trinity role equals analogy right not descriptions of the generation of the
02:14:2702:14:27 - sun we’ve been over that that’s heresy we shouldn’t go there the son is an eternal member of the Trinity how can he
02:14:3302:14:33 - be created um so we are talking about these roles as analogies to help us understand the way in which the members
02:14:4102:14:41 - of the Trinity act in the world and so in this last thing that we were talking about um prayer uh well even though we
02:14:4902:14:49 - almost always address it to the father like that’s the examples we have from the Bible are pretty consistent in this
02:14:5502:14:55 - way Jesus does say um and this is in John chapter 14 that if we ask anything in his name if we ask him anything in
02:15:0202:15:02 - his name he will do it um and so that’s not praying to the father that’s praying to Jesus so we say oh well you see it’s
02:15:1002:15:10 - not like a contradiction or anything and um you know we actually talked about this off the recording just a little bit
02:15:1402:15:14 - ago um you know we can pray to any member of the Trinity and we should not let this in the way of us praying out of
02:15:2202:15:22 - fear of praying wrong the point is is is that like there there aren’t lines here so strong that it is indefensible for us
02:15:3202:15:32 - to ever address the son in prayer as our commanding officer and our elder brother in the faith as one who understands us
02:15:3802:15:38 - could we never pray to him or include him in our prayers and I mean sometimes I was speaking for myself I just pray to
02:15:4502:15:45 - God and you know God is made up of three persons United in will do we need to specify I mean I think
02:15:5402:15:54 - just getting really focusing on the details here majoring on the minors making the mountains of the mole Hills
02:16:0102:16:01 - is not the right approach to this um uh especially trying to say well this can’t be so because you know this role means
02:16:1002:16:10 - thus and so um the more that we try to force it the more that we aren’t kind of going down the right path here um
02:16:1902:16:19 - another example here so we know that the father as the one in heaven the one with the authoritative plan who is sort of
02:16:2602:16:26 - delegating um the and architecting uh everything that happens so uh there’s this controversy in the early church uh
02:16:3502:16:35 - this you may have heard this has to do with so-called filio Clause it’s a Latin um for and the son when the spirit was
02:16:4202:16:42 - sent was the father the one who sent him or was it the father and the son who sent him um to us I mean in many
02:16:5102:16:51 - practical terms doesn’t matter the spirit was sent uh to us to indwell us but uh this is getting at the idea of
02:16:5902:16:59 - roles again well the son is acting as the one who was sent to us initially on the father’s Authority so it’s perfectly
02:17:0702:17:07 - acceptable for him to send the spirit as a representative of the father but the father is the one in Authority who you
02:17:1402:17:14 - know has this plan and so you know he can send the spirit as the one sort of uh pointing and structuring the foran on
02:17:2102:17:21 - a construction site right um so both are right you know the issue turns on the father’s role as possessing original
02:17:3002:17:30 - Authority and the son’s role receiving delegated authority as God’s messenger in the world the representative if you
02:17:3602:17:36 - will but again both of these things only deal with adopted roles as in they are not inherently by Nature limitations
02:17:4502:17:45 - upon the members of the Trinity and so the point in all this is that we just need to be careful to restrict ourselves
02:17:5202:17:52 - to learning what the Bible actually teaches us you know the roles as God tends to organize um our understanding
02:18:0202:18:02 - of him through these analogies in scripture and we should not build dispositive doctrinal principles and
02:18:0802:18:08 - it’s kind of a big word but uh it means things like basically that are purporting to settle a matter for all
02:18:1502:18:15 - time basically pretending like we know exactly what all this means when we don’t because we’re small and finite and
02:18:2102:18:21 - human um solely on deductions steming from what the rules might mean um so I it it’s not said in the Bible but it’s
02:18:3002:18:30 - something that we say well based on the nature of fathers I think so and so like that’s when we’re getting off in the
02:18:3502:18:35 - weeds um because the thing that should be clear to us from everything that we get in the Bible all the examples that
02:18:4202:18:42 - we’ve been going over here is that the members of the Trinity are undeniably one in their unity and purpose so all of
02:18:4902:18:49 - these things that we’ve been going over so you know like you know the creation of the world the plan of God the
02:18:5502:18:55 - revelation of the word the Advent of Christ what that means for us in terms of about salvation the reconciliation of
02:19:0002:19:00 - the believer you know I could go on and on and on everything that we’ve talked about in this particular lesson all of
02:19:0602:19:06 - these things the members of the Trinity are united they have a purpose in this and so just because the father acts in
02:19:1402:19:14 - this way and the son acts in this way where those lines are how they intersect with each other um where the boundaries
02:19:2002:19:20 - are are they’re all God all of this is being worked out for our good and we’re supposed to help um we are supposed to
02:19:2802:19:28 - understand them like these analogies were given to us in the Bible to help us make sense of where those
02:19:3402:19:34 - responsibilities are within the in the trinity in the roles they’ve adopted but again as we’ve been saying they’re
02:19:4002:19:40 - analogies we don’t get to push it past what is there and so they’re just supposed to help us organize um in a
02:19:4802:19:48 - wider sense of scale how it is that the roles in the Trinity work that’s all there is to it and so that’s really no
02:19:5402:19:54 - more than the point we’re making here is that if you are ever tempted to push something and and um what’s the right
02:20:0202:20:02 - way to phrase this like try to say it has to be thus and so because of XYZ chain of logical deductions you’re
02:20:0902:20:09 - probably pushing it too far that’s just kind of the rule of a thumb that I think we would want to adopt here so a you
02:20:1602:20:16 - have any points that you want to cover more uh in this kind of warning section of of where the bounds
02:20:2402:20:24 - are yeah um when it comes to the Trinity what again we’re concerned with is coming to understand why we uh are
02:20:3302:20:33 - signing up on God’s plan the Bible is particularly concerned with telling us this is why God made everything this is
02:20:4202:20:42 - why you are here and um this is what is required or expected of you you and what the Lord is calling you to the
02:20:5302:20:53 - rewards he has uh prepared for those who choose to follow him and all of that stuff now of course when you hear all
02:21:0202:21:02 - the plans and you hear all the promises and all of that bottom line is why should I trust that this is good for me
02:21:1002:21:10 - so the Bible also provides us with some insight into who God is and what he is about so when we are studying the
02:21:1902:21:19 - Trinity it is essentially telling us this is the person behind the plan this is the person making all these promises
02:21:2602:21:26 - and this is why you have any confidence that everything is going to work out the way you have been told it will work out
02:21:3302:21:33 - so when we hear about the roles in the Trinity typically we’re learning two things one is
02:21:4002:21:40 - that um yes God is really three persons he is not just one person wearing different hats that’s one one of the
02:21:5102:21:51 - very important things for example those who keep insisting that God is just one person who has three faces or whatever
02:21:5702:21:57 - it is they like to think have to explain how and and and they say ridiculous things which we have talked about in
02:22:0502:22:05 - this series that God sent himself to die on the cross and they say things like at the
02:22:1602:22:16 - baptism of Jesus Christ it was God the Father who spoke to himself while being baptized and who descended upon himself
02:22:2702:22:27 - in the form of a dove ridiculous things like this but we see with the way that the Bible makes these
02:22:3502:22:35 - delineations while also reminding us that they’re not to be taken as strict because we are supposed to understand
02:22:4302:22:43 - that there are there is quite a bit of overlap in the way that the per the persons of the Trinity um um function
02:22:5202:22:52 - toward the realiz the realization of their plan so what we are seeing in the first place is that there are really
02:23:0002:23:00 - three persons three persons that is just to tell us what God is like and then on the other hand that
02:23:1102:23:11 - this is how thought out how everything has been so accounted for that there has been nothing left to
02:23:1902:23:19 - chance every everything has been taken care of by God himself each person of the Trinity weighing in in some way to
02:23:2702:23:27 - make sure that everything works out the way that God wants it to that’s what we’re supposed to take away from this
02:23:3302:23:33 - once we start to go into anything other than this we get into all sorts of trouble we’re not here to make
02:23:4102:23:41 - theology just like the majority of Scholars so to speak um throughout the the the 2,000 years of church history
02:23:5202:23:52 - seem to think that we were here playing an intellect that the whole point of Christianity is some intellectual game
02:23:5702:23:57 - what we’re trying to build up theories as to what is what that’s not what we’re trying to do here we’re simply taking
02:24:0502:24:05 - what the scriptures say to understand this is who God is and therefore why we can trust that everything will work out
02:24:1102:24:11 - the way that he says that it will and this is how he is working it all out so that we know we can be certain that
02:24:1802:24:18 - nothing has been left to chance everything has been worked out and we can be confident that it will all play
02:24:2302:24:23 - out as we have been promised so um the cavates then are to tell us don’t make more of it than what
02:24:3302:24:33 - we have been told and that’s a worthy cave to me given the history of the of the church visible in the past 2,000
02:24:4102:24:41 - years well I also just think like I said the reason why why do we have these analogies because they help us better
02:24:4702:24:47 - understand God we all have human fathers you know some of them may have been you know better or more lacking than others
02:24:5402:24:54 - but we have this framework to fit the idea of fatherhood into it helps us understand God same deal with the idea
02:25:0202:25:02 - of sunship you know and The Heirs if you will you know specifically sons of kings and that sort of thing and you know
02:25:1302:25:13 - empowering forces like the wind we have ways in which we can help we can better understand God we can anori him or we
02:25:2102:25:21 - can ascribe these characteristics to him through these loose General analogies that help us better fit an infinite
02:25:2802:25:28 - Eternal being into our limited Minds that’s all this is um so as we’ve been saying just don’t make more out of it
02:25:3602:25:36 - than than what it is um and it’s really no more and no less than that um
02:25:4402:25:44 - yeah yeah all right well this has been quite the section um we’ll go over in a sec all the things we talked about but
02:25:5302:25:53 - giving us this deeper understanding of the Trinity roles in all that God does for us as he works throughout
02:26:0302:26:03 - history so we’re going to go back through everything we’ve talked about since this has been kind of a long one
02:26:0902:26:09 - here this lesson everything that we’ve gone through um all of these examples that we went through again emphasizing
02:26:1402:26:14 - that this is not the only things that God does in the world as it relates to his plan so a non-ex exhaustive list
02:26:2102:26:21 - what we said here um so we talked about the plan of God generally how the members of the Trinity are all involved
02:26:2902:26:29 - in the working out of the plan of God in human history talked about creation the revelation of the word Christ’s first
02:26:3802:26:38 - Advent the victory of Salvation the reconciliation of the believer regeneration of the believer and then we
02:26:4402:26:44 - spent some time talking about these things that we do after we are saved right so it’s not just
02:26:5002:26:50 - up until the point that we choose for God and we become part of his family then we have to walk on our pilgrimage
02:26:5702:26:57 - to Zion uh we have these virtues that we’re supposed to live by faith hope and love we have spiritual gifts we have
02:27:0402:27:04 - jobs that have been assigned to us uh with effects that the father has ordained to work out his will in the
02:27:1102:27:11 - world and then we’re supposed to pray as Believers this is an important part of our walk with god um you know praying
02:27:1702:27:17 - for other people in the church and just the world generally it helps connect us to God but we do that again um as it
02:27:2402:27:24 - relates to different roles in the Trinity understanding who they are and what they represent in God’s plan for us
02:27:3102:27:31 - so not going to overly belabor all the points here but the overview takeaway is that in all of these things we said so
02:27:3802:27:38 - let me see 1 2 3 four five 6 Seven 8 9 10 11 different points here that we’ve been through we have seen time and again
02:27:4702:27:47 - that the father and the son and the spirit all have these parts that they play in every single facet of God’s plan
02:27:5602:27:56 - for reconciling us to him both on an individual level and a corporate level um in every single part of this plan all
02:28:0402:28:04 - three members of the Trinity are united in bringing about the effects that God wishes in the world so for example in
02:28:1202:28:12 - reconciling us to him in giving us this opportunity to um be covered in the blood of Christ so that we might spend
02:28:1902:28:19 - ET eternity with him in perfect fellowship with God and one another well all three members of the Trinity play
02:28:2702:28:27 - critical roles in bringing that about and they are in perfect unity in none of these things uh does one member of the
02:28:3402:28:34 - Trinity want to do one thing and another one of the Trinity want to do another there is no conflict they have adopted
02:28:4002:28:40 - these roles that we’ve been talking about of the father and the son and the spirit as the empowering wind if you
02:28:4702:28:47 - will um these roles that we were discussing for the sake of bringing all these things about but they do so in
02:28:5302:28:53 - perfect Unity um and that is just the main takeaway here and so that’s why when we read about some of the caveats
02:29:0002:29:00 - that we have about uh you know basically why in all of this we shouldn’t get it through our heads that God can’t do this
02:29:0902:29:09 - or that it’s because we are just trying to better understand him using the analogies he’s given us in the Bible and
02:29:1602:29:16 - so hopefully all of this discussion that we’ve had in this section has helped make it clear to us um just a little bit
02:29:2202:29:22 - more depth how all of the roles work out in all these facets of God’s plan throughout human history and so in the
02:29:3002:29:30 - next lesson we are going to be talking about the trinity in the Old Testament so as opposed to just kind of The Wider
02:29:3702:29:37 - scale of human history that we were talking about here in all of God’s plans for us as human beings we’re going to be
02:29:4202:29:42 - looking at um how the Trinity was present even in the Old Testament um and so there is this passage uh in the New
02:29:5002:29:50 - Testament where Jesus is walking on the road to Emmas with people and he explains how the Bible spoke of him you
02:29:5702:29:57 - know and then they don’t recognize him until he breaks bread and then their eyes are opened but if you’ve ever
02:30:0102:30:01 - wondered what exactly was it that Jesus talked to them about during that time well that’s sort of I I we can’t promise
02:30:0902:30:09 - that we have everything that Jesus because we don’t have that recorded for us in the Bible but we’re going to take
02:30:1302:30:13 - a stab and talking about how we see the Trinity um uh maybe a little bit through a veil but we still see it present there
02:30:2002:30:20 - reflecting the reality of it even in the Old Testament so that’s what the next lesson will be focused on
Introduction - The Trinity in the Old Testament
Video
Summary
God has always been triune in nature; He did not somehow change to become three persons in New Testament times, but rather, has always existed as such. What has changed is not God, but our perspective and understanding of Him. As to why God might have chosen to veil his triune nature until the time He actually did reveal it to mankind, we put forward two explanations: that God did not reveal His triune nature in order to head off idolatry among the people of Israel, and that God did not reveal His triune nature simply because it was not possible for humanity to fully grasp it until the First Advent of Christ.
Timestamps
0:000:00 - Intro and outline
05:2105:21 - Given the benefit of subsequent clarifying New Testament revelation, the Trinity is visible in the Old Testament
17:0517:05 - Matthew 22:41-46
37:5737:57 - Prophetic foreshortening
47:4247:42 - Why did God decide to veil the triune nature of His essence in Old Testament times?
01:01:3601:01:36 - Idolatry as an explanation for God’s veiling of His nature
01:15:5301:15:53 - The person of Jesus Christ not yet come as an explanation for God’s veiling of His nature
01:35:3101:35:31 - Summary and outro
Content
(Derived from https://ichthys.com/1Theo.htm)
Given the benefit of subsequent clarifying New Testament revelation, the Trinity is visible in the Old Testament
The Trinity is not only present in the verses of the Old Testament, but portrayed clearly enough to see (with the benefit of New Testament revelation).
- When God says “let us make Man in our image (Gen.1:26)
- When the angels of God praise Him with their three-fold “holy, holy, holy” (Is.6:3)
- When Aaron’s sons are told to “put My name” on the Israelites with a triple blessing (Num.6:24-26)
In these cases and others, the clear intent is to reflect (if not to convey) the triune nature of God. Moreover, some Old Testament scriptures cast the Trinity in even sharper relief, such as king David’s last words which in quick succession refer to God as “the Spirit of the Lord”, “the God of Israel”, and “the Rock of Israel” (2Sam.23:2-3; see 1Cor.10:4 for the image of Christ as Israel’s Rock). There are many other passages commonly cited to demonstrate the reality of the Trinity in the Old Testament, a reality shimmering just beneath the veil (e.g., Is.48:15-17; 63:9-10), but perhaps the best example is the one used by our Lord to demonstrate that His divinity was indeed prophesied by scripture (cf. Zech.2:7-13): Matthew 22:41-46. We’ll look at this passage next.
Matthew 22:41-46
As the Pharisees were gathering together, Jesus put a question to them, saying “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?” They answered Him, “David’s son.” Then He said to them, “Well then, how can David, speaking in the Spirit, call Him Lord? For he says,
The Lord said to My Lord,
“Sit down at my right hand,
until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” [Psalm 110:1]
So if David calls Him Lord, how is He his Son?” And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare to question Him any longer from that day forward.
We are not to assume that David, when he penned this prophecy under divine inspiration, saw the coming Christ as clearly as he wished to. Indeed, we have it from Christ that “many prophets and righteous men desired to see” what was being revealed to Jesus’ generation face to face, namely, the unveiling of the Messiah (Matt.13:17; Lk.10:24; cf. Jn.8:56; 1Pet.1:10-12). The revelation of Jesus Christ to the world during His 1st Advent, in addition to explaining passages such as Ps.110:1 above (Christ is David’s Son in His humanity, but David’s Lord in His deity), is also, not coincidentally, the basis for explaining many other Old Testament passages that are only fully understood by means of our likewise now more complete understanding of the Trinity.
Prophetic foreshortening
In the Old Testament, the three Persons stand in front of us like three mighty mountains, one after the other, all partially visible, but not readily distinguishable from each other. Only with the revelation provided by the incarnation of Jesus Christ and the New Testament do we see the Old Testament picture of the Trinity from a sidelong perspective, so that now the three mountains become visible in their own right when viewed from this new vantage point.
We should note that all three mountains have always been there, even if humanity was not previously able to distinguish them from one another. One did not suddenly become three. Instead, our perspective merely changed.
This illustration of the Trinity in the Old Testament is commonly called “prophetic foreshortening”. For more on this phenomenon, see part 1 of Coming Tribulation, section IV.1.a, “Prophetical Foreshortening”.
Why did God decide to veil the triune nature of His essence in Old Testament times?
Exactly why did God decide to veil the triune nature of His essence in Old Testament times, choosing instead to only foreshadow it, in the manner discussed above?
Sometimes the explanation put forth for this veiling is the prevention of idolatry: God did not make His triune nature known to Israel in Old Testament times to help them avoid falling into idolatry (the mechanics of which we will examine in a moment). While this explanation has merit, it is not alone sufficient. We will instead argue that God did not reveal Himself in triune form before the 1st Advent of Christ simply because the Trinity can only be clearly explained and understood after the 1st Advent of Christ.
In any case, the point is God has good reasons for His progressive revelation of truth to humanity, and we need to have unshakeable faith in His wisdom and judgment. God knows what He is doing… and not in the way we humans think we do. For He is control of everything, and nothing happens except that which is part of His Plan.
Idolatry as an explanation for God’s veiling of His nature
Idolatry, a major problem in ancient times and one of Israel’s most serious stumbling blocks, is often adduced as the reason for this veiling in pre-Christian times of our present knowledge of the Trinity. Certainly it is true that the threat of idolatry to the faith and practice of Old Testament believers was a very real one. We need only to consider that the first two of the “ten commandments” deal with this subject (Ex.20:1-6), and that Balaam’s counsel of idolatrous seduction was more destructive to Israel than any curse could ever have been (Num.25). The argument suggests that there was, therefore, a need to emphasize the oneness of God in the face of this very real polytheistic threat, thus obviating any possible twisting of a proper understanding of the Trinity. This explanation possesses much of value, but it does not entirely resolve the matter.
Pagan pantheons (not to mention pagan religions) are different from God and the true worship of Him in every way, and this would have been obvious to true believers, revelation of the Trinity notwithstanding. To state but two obvious points of departure, pagan pantheons are never even close to being “one” in purpose as the Trinity is (Jn.10:30; cf. 1Cor.3:8), nor are their individual members so integral to the existence of the whole.
The person of Jesus Christ not yet come as an explanation for God’s veiling of His nature
The full answer lies in the person of Jesus Christ. Before the fact, before we see with our own eyes Christ come in the flesh, His humility, His suffering, His sacrifice for us, can we really appreciate in full the Trinity and what God has chosen to do for us in Christ’s incarnation and death on the cross? Without the accomplished reality of the incarnation of Jesus, how could we ever but dimly conceive the glory of it? And without the accomplished fact of His incarnation, how could we possibly understand and appreciate the triune nature of God? For it is only through Christ – after He has come into the world in person – that we begin to see God with the clarity of vision it has now been given us to possess (Jn.1:18; 14:9).
Just as the temple veil that symbolically separated us from the presence of God was split in two by Christ’s sacrifice on our behalf (Matt.27:51), so the veil that in the Old Testament partially obscured the person of Christ from our view has been lifted by His actual advent in the flesh – to die on our behalf. So that now, through our faith in Jesus Christ, we see God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit more clearly than we ever could before:
For God who said, “Let light shine forth from the darkness!”, is He who has shone forth [His light] into our hearts to illuminate our knowledge of God’s glory in the person of Jesus Christ.
For until this very day, the same veil remains [upon their unbelieving hearts] when the Old Testament is read, and it is not removed [when they hear these scriptures], because it is [only] done away with in Christ.
So:
- We see the Son more clearly after He comes into the world (Jn.1:14).
- The Son can only reveal the Father more clearly after He comes into the world (Jn.1:18).
- The Spirit cannot be sent to indwell believers until after the Son has been glorified (Jn.7:39).
And therefore:
- The Trinity can only be clearly explained and understood after the 1st Advent of Christ, a task undertaken by the New Testament.
- While in the Old Testament, before the 1st Advent, the members of the Trinity are, understandably, not as clearly distinguished as they are in the New Testament.
Video/audio transcript
00:0000:00 - so the next lesson that we’re going to be going over here in this series is talking about the trinity in the Old
00:0600:06 - Testament and specifically this first lesson that we’re going to be doing is going to be talking just kind of about
00:1200:12 - the introduction to this as a concept so the part of the lesson sorry the part of the study on ichus that goes through
00:1900:19 - this is it’s actually pretty lengthy it’s one of the uh one of the last major sections in the study here so in the
00:2600:26 - outline this is the third subsection of the second Point talking about the Trinity so in past lessons here we’ve
00:3200:32 - been talking about just the definition of the Trinity uh three in person one in essence and then we talk some about the
00:3800:38 - trinity in the Bible uh specifically we’ve looked at a lot of new testament passages that kind of make the point
00:4400:44 - clear and now we’re going to be turning to uh the sort of traces you could say of the trinity in the Old Testament what
00:5200:52 - passages kind of point us to it and it’s been there all along somewhat veiled from Human sight um so this first here
01:0001:00 - in this we’re going to kind of be talking just about an introduction to kind of the concept of how the Trinity
01:0601:06 - fit in to the Old Testament believer’s understanding of God uh so among other things we’re going to be kind of talking
01:1101:11 - about why didn’t God just reveal himself to Old Testament Believers as being Triune in nature like what would be the
01:2001:20 - possible reasons for that um because now that we have the New Testament uh so-called progressive revelation this
01:2601:26 - has been made available to us but why would God not do that for the Believers in the Old Testament and so as I say
01:3401:34 - this lesson a little bit more introductory in nature and we will move on uh a bit later talking about
01:4001:40 - appearances of Christ in the Old Testament so-called christophanies um and we’ll get there eventually but for
01:4601:46 - today uh we’re going to be talking about uh just the general concept of how the Trinity was always there in the Old
01:5301:53 - Testament and we can see this more with the clarification that new testament Revelation gives us uh so it was a bit
02:0102:01 - veiled from them but with the benefit of the writings of the New Testament and of course Jesus Christ come in the flesh as
02:0802:08 - a human being we see it much more clearly than they did um so we’re going to be talking specifically about this
02:1502:15 - passage from Matthew chapter 22 veres 41- 46 and what that has to do with this this concept here of the Trinity being
02:2302:23 - visible in the Old Testament um and then we’re going to talk a bit about prophetic foreshortening as well so this
02:3002:30 - idea that uh what they saw as one mountain if you will like looking at it headon uh so that the front part of it
02:4002:40 - sort of prevented them from seeing the parts behind it a sort of an artistic concept here well in that same way uh so
02:5002:50 - too was this prophecy sort of uh veiled from them and so now that we have the benefit of more Revelation in the New
02:5702:57 - Testament we can kind of see the three members of the Trinity as distinct people um in a way that they could not
03:0303:03 - so we’ll talk a little bit about that as a concept and then we’ll talk about why would God decided to Veil The Triune
03:1003:10 - nature of his Essence in Old Testament times like why wouldn’t he just reveal himself to them in the same way that he
03:1603:16 - revealed himself to us um so this gets into that that topic I’ve mentioned before about progressive revelation and
03:2303:23 - so we’re going to be talking about two major explanations uh number one that uh the idolatry of
03:3003:30 - people surrounding Israel is a possible explanation for God’s veiling of his nature because we’ve gone over already
03:3703:37 - some of the heresies related to the Trinity uh are related to improperly viewing God as a Pantheon so the Trinity
03:4503:45 - is not three separate Gods but you can sort of see how one of the things that defined Israel as separate and apart
03:5403:54 - from their Pagan neighbors was that they were monotheistic they believed in one God and so to emphasize that Oneness uh
04:0004:00 - so the hypothesis goes God chose not to reveal himself to uh his people in this way until Jesus Christ had come and
04:0904:09 - ultimately the explanation that we’re going to we’re going to put forward as more convincing overall probably is that
04:1604:16 - uh God chose not to reveal the specifics of the Trinity until Jesus Christ had come until the second member of the
04:2204:22 - Trinity had been uh born as a human being and died for us and resurrected uh in God’s acceptance of his his payment
04:3004:30 - because having Jesus Christ come and and take the burden for our sins on his shoulders it it really throws into light
04:3904:39 - the plan for the trinity in the Redemption of mankind and so uh to put that a little bit differently it’s
04:4504:45 - almost as if God couldn’t properly explain what the Trinity is like what the point of the Trinity roles are until
04:5104:51 - Jesus Christ had come and that’s really all there is to it uh it’s not a more I don’t know mysterious or philosophical
05:0005:00 - notion simply that uh God waited to kind of give us all the specifics of this until Jesus Christ had become a human
05:0805:08 - being because then it makes it very clear what God’s Redemptive plan was for us so we’ll go over all of this more of
05:1505:15 - course as we get into the lesson but that’s kind of the sneak preview here of the things that we’re going to be
05:1905:19 - talking about here in this lesson so just to kick us off here in our introduction of the trinity as it is
05:3105:31 - uh sort of revealed to us in the Old Testament or where we can see it active in the Old Testament we’re going to be
05:3705:37 - talking just about this idea that it was visible if we kind of Look Backwards with the clarifi the clarifying uh
05:4605:46 - revelation we have from the New Testament this extra information that God has given us makes it possible to
05:5105:51 - sort of reinterpret the Old Testament scriptures in light of the new and with that if you look with eyes of Faith the
06:0006:00 - Trinity is more than visible in the Old Testament it is there um and uh critics such as unbelieving Jews might view what
06:1106:11 - we’re about to do with a great deal of skepticism that basically we’re just making up connections that aren’t really
06:1706:17 - there um so you know some people wrote more books and then decided that they were just going to change how they
06:2306:23 - interpreted the Old Testament based on their new books or something like that um we aren’t making things up because of
06:3106:31 - course we believe that the New Testament is the inspired word of God just as much as the old and so it is no more than
06:3706:37 - interpreting scripture with scripture um so we’re not going to get so much into the apologetic side of this here but the
06:4406:44 - idea here is that we understand the Old Testament and uh God’s actions as a Triune being in the Old Testament
06:5206:52 - through that uh through the lens of our understanding of him that the New Testament gives us um and so with that
06:5906:59 - kind of see what I mean as we go here um so uh the argument here and this is word for word from ikus is that the Trinity
07:0607:06 - is not only present in the verses of the Old Testament but actually portrayed clearly enough to see once we have that
07:1407:14 - understanding of God that the New Testament gives us so uh three examples here that Dr luganville uses number one
07:2007:20 - in Genesis chapter 1 even um this quotation of let us make man in our image the first person plurals here um
07:2907:29 - and you know is that a slam dunk you know with someone reading the Old Testament
07:3407:34 - without some of the benefit of the Revelation in the New Testament say ah this must mean that God exists in three
07:4107:41 - persons well not really but now that we see that we can see it obviously that even from the beginning God has been
07:4807:48 - this way um he didn’t change somehow this has always been his nature and in fact it was always there Ai and I have
07:5507:55 - sort of mentioned before how uh some of the Old Testament believer probably would have sort of had this sliver in
08:0108:01 - the back of their mind that what exactly does it mean for this to be plural like like how does that work um you know is
08:0808:08 - there something there and of course they didn’t see clearly it was not given to them to see clearly uh even if they
08:1408:14 - wished it but now that we have this Revelation when we Look Backwards at some of these passages in the Old
08:2008:20 - Testament it can be clear to us that God has always been this way in fact the Trinity was there um just now we can see
08:2708:27 - it more clearly with the benefit of this h it so second one Isaiah 6:3 um this is a verse talking about the
08:3608:36 - praise uh that the God is due so they call out to one another saying holy holy holy is the Lord of hosts the whole
08:4408:44 - earth is full of his glory so you will note the threefold holies here holy holy holy not just one not just two but three
08:5108:51 - and that very much Echoes the idea of the Trinity and then in Numbers Chapter 6 and go actually pull this one up since
08:5908:59 - it’s a little bit longer a couple verses here numbers 6: 24- 26 says the Lord bless you and keep you the Lord make his
09:0809:08 - face shine on you and be gracious to you the Lord lift up his countenance on you and give you peace uh you may actually
09:1409:14 - hear this commonly used as a benediction in uh Services you know like uh uh church services you know the pastor
09:2109:21 - might say this as people are are kind of service is closing out filing out of the the room um so this this benediction
09:2809:28 - here you can see the three-fold repetition um the Lord bless you and keep you the Lord make his face shine on
09:3409:34 - you the Lord lift up his countenance on you um the three is present right there and of course this is like far from
09:4009:40 - comprehensive these are just several examples that we’re pulling up to see how uh if we look with this benefit of
09:4809:48 - hindsight you can see the Trinity present in the Old Testament as well um so in these cases and others as I say
09:5609:56 - not comprehensive the clear intent is to reflect if not to convey the Triune nature of God that God exists in three
10:0410:04 - persons yet sharing the same Essence as we’ve gone over in our lessons previously so in addition to that some
10:1210:12 - Old Testament scriptures cast the trinity in even sharper relief such as King David’s Last Words which in quick
10:1810:18 - succession refer to God as the spirit of the Lord the god of Israel and the rock of Israel and so this is a quotation
10:2510:25 - from 2 Samuel chapter 23 can go ahead and read that one too says the spirit of the Lord spoke to me
10:3210:32 - and his word was on my tongue the god of Israel said the rock of Israel spoke to me he who rules over men righteously who
10:3910:39 - rules in the fear of God um so again threefold repetition here and you can also see uh this quotation in 1
10:5010:50 - Corinthians chapter 10 in the New Testament I’m talking about Christ being the rock here um Christ as Israel’s Rock
10:5710:57 - specifically actually not just like the Cornerstone but Christ is Israel’s Rock um and so these are not the only
11:0511:05 - passages again um uh that one there is you know another obvious parallel in addition to the three we just went over
11:1311:13 - um but there are plenty of other passages that really do demonstrate the reality of the trinity in the Old
11:1911:19 - Testament uh something that was veiled yet present and so there are a couple more passages here from Isaiah um I may
11:2711:27 - not go over all of the but I would encourage folks to look at the references here um but the perhaps the
11:3511:35 - best example um is the one that Jesus himself uses to demonstrate that his divinity was indeed prophec by scripture
11:4411:44 - and um we’re going to go ahead and look at this one uh as a standalone uh sort of as a standalone passage just look at
11:5111:51 - it a little bit more because it is used by Jesus in the gospels in fact to demonstrate his divinity um so
12:0012:00 - um that is kind of where we’re going to turn next but any of the passages that we’ve gone over here in this uh sort of
12:0612:06 - first opening um including this 2 Samuel passage um anything more to say on those Audi or just on this concept of the
12:1412:14 - Trinity being there but failed in the Old Testament not really um I think you’ve really covered everything it was
12:2412:24 - there and even though it was not fully understood or fully um described in the Scriptures it was there all the passages
12:3612:36 - you mentioned are proofs and one of the ones that uh um I’ve mentioned quite a few times in the series is Zechariah 2
12:4312:43 - verse I believe 9 um where yeah so it’s quoted here on this slide is yes this one You’ mentioned this one
12:5212:52 - multiple times yeah yeah so we have we have in the Old Testament multiple descriptions that should tell anyone
13:0313:03 - there was at least a multiplicity in the godhead there was a godhead of some sort even if it was not
13:1013:10 - fully understood or fully described and um as to why what you said was very true that um the the the uh veiling of that
13:2413:24 - truth was because of the idolatry of the times there was also the fact that well the human the human race as as an
13:3413:34 - organism had to mature up to a point that they could actually Bear certain truths just as the Lord Jesus said to
13:4013:40 - the apostles that um um he had much to say to them but they could not bear it yet there was a point at which they
13:4913:49 - could handle some of those things it’s true both of human beings on an individual level and also on a corporate
13:5513:55 - level so um there is no question then that this was there it was it it it did not become true just because of the New
14:0614:06 - Testament it was always the case like you said yeah I mean and that really is that’s always the thing to keep in mind
14:1314:13 - with progressive revelation uh we are big earlier in this study we we emphasize time and again how God’s
14:2014:20 - Essence does not change that is sort of the characteristic of divinity that makes God so separate from us because
14:2714:27 - his externality to T um means that he is unlike Us in this way human beings change we can sometimes
14:3514:35 - be sort of capricious and fickle in uh our passions or our Pursuits but God isn’t like that um and his immutability
14:4414:44 - if you will is such a fundamental characteristic to him that we really should not downplay it um and as that
14:5114:51 - relates to progressive revelation all we should say is that um just because we learn more about God and
15:0015:00 - God reveals more of himself to humanity doesn’t mean that God was ever different it just means that our understanding of
15:0715:07 - him is different how much Humanity was given to see of him has changed um and that’s true also not only here also in
15:1615:16 - just uh the coming of Jesus Christ his suffering as the suffering servant to pay for our sins um not necessarily just
15:2415:24 - limited to the triun nature of God um that is progressive revelation shows up in areas too including prophecy for
15:3115:31 - example uh but this is one of the the classic examples of it um as God relates to humankind is what things does he keep
15:4115:41 - uh sort of veiled until the right time um so uh there’s kind of this word in in Greek I I it escapes me off the top of
15:4915:49 - my off the top of my head but the the normal word for for time in Greek is Kronos um and so that’s kind of like
15:5615:56 - what time of day it is or just time as a uh numerical thing but the Greeks also had a word uh that that represented the
16:0616:06 - right time to do something or the uh opportune time to do something there’s a word for it I don’t remember it off the
16:1216:12 - top of my head um but that concept is sort of central to what this idea of progressive revelation gets at um fact I
16:1916:19 - think we may have a slide on it you know I don’t want to go too far ahead I’m pretty sure we do in fact Progressive
16:2416:24 - well no we have prophetic for short things so I can ramble here a bit more then um so progressive revelation is
16:2916:29 - just that that there is a proper time for God to reveal these things to humanity and not before then because in
16:3616:36 - his perfect form knowledge God knows when that right time is for the revelation of Truth um
16:4416:44 - so indeed indeed all right well that’s the basic idea here of the Trinity being visible
16:5216:52 - in the Old Testament uh especially viewed in light of our greater understanding of God that the New
16:5816:58 - Testament revelation gives us so next we’re going to go ahead and take a closer look at this passage in Matthew
17:0317:03 - chap 22 specifically so now we’re going to look at that passage we mentioned here
17:1117:11 - Matthew Chap 22: 41-46 and we had just mentioned that uh Jesus uses this passage um to
17:2017:20 - demonstrate his divinity and that it was indeed prophecy it was not something that he was just making up but it had he
17:2717:27 - had been spoken of already so this is in Matthew 22 picking up at verse 41 as the Pharisees were gathering together Jesus
17:3617:36 - put a question to them saying what do you think about the Messiah whose son is he they answered him David’s son then he
17:4417:44 - said to them well then how can David speaking in the spirit call him Lord for he says the Lord said to my Lord sit
17:5317:53 - down at my right hand until I make your enemies a foot stol for your feet and this is quoting psalm 110
18:0018:00 - verse1 and so if David calls him Lord how is he his son and no one was able to answer him a word nor did anyone dare to
18:1018:10 - ask him questions any longer from that day forward so this uh passage is probably
18:1718:17 - familiar to us this is one of the most famous Messianic references in the Old Testament that’s how you you’ll hear it
18:2318:23 - termed uh so-called Messianic Psalms point forward to Christ as the Messiah so Psalm 110 this passage specifically
18:3118:31 - comes up a lot in this as demonstrating Jesus’s Divinity um so David’s son according to the flesh but God proper um
18:4118:41 - by Nature you know the God man this is who Jesus is um and so this Paradox of you know being David’s son yet his Lord
18:5118:51 - this is what had the phy stumped such that none of them were willing to talk to him anymore but nonetheless um I
18:5818:58 - don’t know you thought about this but when David wrote this down what what do you think David thought about this what
19:0519:05 - does this mean right what does it mean the Lord said to my Lord because when David was writing this we know David had
19:1119:11 - a blessing of the Holy Spirit um not all people in the Old Testament were indwelt um or maybe indwell is not quite the
19:1819:18 - right word because it was kind of like an anointing of the Spirit uh many of the prophets in the Old Testament did uh
19:2419:24 - David did uh you know he was given to write a lot of scripture in the Old Testament
19:2919:29 - um but this this anointing of the Holy Spirit if you will um led him to write some of these words and we can imagine
19:3619:36 - that David probably marveled at them and wondered what exactly they meant because we know that that David was looking
19:4319:43 - forward to the Messiah um you know as the Jews did God’s promised to deliver Humanity from their sins all the way
19:5119:51 - back in Genesis chapter 3 we’ve mentioned before the Proto evangelium the animal skins given to wash away the
19:5919:59 - sins of humanity it has been a promise that God has given Humanity from the very beginning and so David as a man of
20:0620:06 - Faith would have been looking towards God’s Deliverance of his people somehow but he would not have understood Christ
20:1420:14 - um so Isaiah Isaiah chapter 53 when Isaiah was writing about the suffering servant how much exactly did he know
20:2220:22 - what all of that meant you know um that’s actually a question is probably not super productive for us to spend
20:2720:27 - lots of time on but the point is that these men in the past they wanted to look into these
20:3420:34 - things they wanted to understand what the messiah’s coming would be like and and kind of what would happen um but in
20:4320:43 - fact this isn’t just conjecture on our part um we have directly from the Bible that many prophets and righteous men
20:4920:49 - desired to see what was being revealed to Jesus’s generation face to face that is the unveiling of the Messiah so
20:5620:56 - that’s a quote here from uh Matthew chap 13: 17 says for truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired
21:0521:05 - to see what you see and did not see it and to hear what you hear and they did not hear it you know another uh another
21:1221:12 - cross reference there from the other synoptics in Luke chapter 10 verse 24 says the same thing and then we also
21:1821:18 - have this passage in John chapter 8 and uh it says your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day and he saw it and was glad
21:2721:27 - now that’s a a puzzling thing what does that mean exactly um well we don’t we don’t know exactly but Abraham looking
21:3421:34 - forward in faith to to the Deliverance of God’s people through the Messiah well that is what is in view but exactly what
21:4121:41 - did Abraham see it’s kind of again maybe not the most productive use of time to get very focused on that point exactly
21:4921:49 - but the point is they didn’t see it fully they didn’t see it completely revealed and then this passage in First
21:5521:55 - Peter is probably the clearest uh rendition of this concept that we’re talking about here um so 1 Peter 1:
22:0422:04 - 10-12 as to this salvation the prophets who prophecied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and
22:1022:10 - inquiries seeking to know what person or time the spirit of Christ within them was indicating as he predicted the
22:1722:17 - sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow it was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you in
22:2422:24 - these things which now have been announced to you through those who preach the gospel To You by The Holy the
22:2822:28 - Holy Spirit Sent From Heaven things into which Angels long to look and so far be it just from this concept being limited
22:3622:36 - to uh Old Testament prophets or or people like David and Abraham the angels are interested in this too because it’s
22:4422:44 - not like uh even as powerful as they are they’re not omniscient and so when God does things angels have a great deal
22:5322:53 - more uh perspective and uh a capacity for long understanding that we do because they aren’t Bound by uh space
23:0223:02 - time and very finite lives in the same way that we are however even angels don’t understand everything that God is
23:0823:08 - doing in his plan for the world now I think it is good of us to hypothesize that they probably understand more than
23:1523:15 - we do generally speaking but they didn’t understand the completeness of what God was doing through the Incarnation of
23:2423:24 - Jesus Christ and through him paying for our sins on the cross um a were curious about this as well much
23:3123:31 - less the prophets and people like David and Abraham and so all of this this is again getting to that idea of
23:3923:39 - progressive revelation and the fact that many of these Old Testament believers they knew that the Messiah was coming
23:4623:46 - that he was going to save Israel and in fact the world from its sins um and they wanted to understand this the unveiling
23:5323:53 - of the Messiah right they desired to see these things and they did not see hear these things and did not hear um and
24:0124:01 - this didn’t catch God by surprise this has been God’s plan to unveil himself to humanity and uh his Redemptive plan to
24:1024:10 - humanity through the sending of Jesus Christ it has always been the plan but that he didn’t reveal it to all of the
24:1824:18 - Old Testament Believers at least not fully that was intentional he didn’t like mess up and failed to tell them or
24:2424:24 - something and so the revelation of Jesus Christ to the world during his first Advent in addition to explaining
24:3224:32 - passages such as Psalm 110 and uh that is uh Christ is David’s son in his humanity and that’s because you can
24:4024:40 - trace uh in the genealogies presented in Matthew and Luke you can trace Jesus’s genealogy back to David um however even
24:4824:48 - though Christ is David’s son in his human uh in the human part of him in his human well I’m going to use Humanity
24:5524:55 - rather than human nature so we don’t get hung up on the word nature but in his Humanity Christ is David’s son but in
25:0125:01 - his deity he is David’s Lord he is the second person of the Trinity the Son part of the godhead Eternal omniscient
25:1025:10 - outside of SpaceTime and this is that great mystery that this one by the way always stays a mystery we still don’t
25:1725:17 - get this one perfectly how can how can Jesus Christ be fully God yet fully man at the same time um you know there’s a
25:2525:25 - word for that theology it’s called the hypostatic union but the point in this is that this is how Jesus fulfills this
25:3425:34 - Prophecy from Psalm 110 he is David’s son but he is also David’s Lord in his deity and so when you take this passage
25:4225:42 - it’s actually a pretty good prototype for explaining many other Old Testament passages that you can kind of only
25:4925:49 - understand fully by means of our more complete understanding of the Trinity that we get through the New Testament um
25:5525:55 - so the words of Psalm 110 were true um they have never not been true God knew this but the Old Testament prophets and
26:0426:04 - David didn’t understand exactly what it was that this was getting at and in fact the Angels may not have either um and so
26:1226:12 - this is what the basis of of this unveiling of Jesus Christ you may call it the revelation of Jesus Christ and in
26:2126:21 - fact um it’s one of the the more um important things that last book of the Bible that we Revelation actually the
26:3026:30 - full title is the revelation of Jesus Christ um that is the name of the book like if you read it in the Greek that’s
26:3726:37 - what it says um because it is the revealing of the Messiah in fact he’s going to come return with the crown this
26:4626:46 - time in Revelation chapter 19 he’s coming as the Conquering King not the suffering servant um but Jesus Christ
26:5226:52 - was revealed the first time too um this Revelation that we’re talking about and the unveil ailing of the Messiah that’s
27:0027:00 - the the term that um well if not this you know like all the passages that we’ve gone through
27:0627:06 - here in the gospels as well as um uh John chapter 8 talking about Abraham and the first Peter passage most clear of
27:1427:14 - all talking about these things that were veiled to them um so that is kind of the concept
27:2227:22 - fleshed out a little bit more that all these Believers in the Old Testament they had an Inkling of some of the
27:2827:28 - things to come um they knew that the Messiah would come and save them from their sins but they didn’t see the full
27:3427:34 - picture and we can kind of only understand um the the plan that God had all along in this um instructing them to
27:4327:43 - write the words that they did through that Revelation that we now have through the coming of Jesus Christ and what he
27:4927:49 - did for us and the the writings in the Bible in the New Testament to explain all of this to us we kind of only see
27:5727:57 - the full picture when you take all of that into account so aie you have any more comments on this passage in Matthew
28:0528:05 - specifically or or some of the passages we read in terms of the truth being veiled from the prophets and David and
28:1228:12 - so on well one thing that this seemed to jump out at me was that that was yet
28:1928:19 - another place where you had a very explicit um description of the multiplicity of the godhead so to speak
28:3128:31 - so because and David says the Lord said to my lord well who would qualify to be David’s
28:3928:39 - Lord if it isn’t God himself he it would be interesting if he was talking about um an angel of some
28:4928:49 - sort so yeah I think that’s that’s one of the things that um should be very clear he knew that there was some
28:5628:56 - multiplicity but what did me and how many persons of the Trinity were involved he might not have known as
29:0629:06 - to um how this was veiled it’s I think it’s it’s obvious from all the passages that
29:1329:13 - we read I was I was particularly um interested as I was growing up reading Matthew
29:2229:22 - whenever Jesus I read Jesus say that righteous men and Prophets and Kings long to see the things you see and to
29:3029:30 - touch the things that you touch and hear the things that you hear but they were not given to you know it was given to
29:3629:36 - you instead I was like like even great Believers like Elijah he Believers like David like
29:4729:47 - Isaiah all of these people who you know the Lord called them his friends um I think it was uh I don’t know if it was
29:5429:54 - Amos or another Prophet who said that God would not do do a thing without talking to his his friends the prophets
30:0330:03 - so you you had all these people and the Lord did not give them this understanding until much later
30:1130:11 - so it it’s it was a thing the Lord the Lord kept the fullness of this Revelation from them but while while you
30:2130:21 - were talking St I was also thinking about the fact that even us today there’s a lot of information that we
30:2730:27 - wish we could have that we don’t have I mean however however perfect your reading of the Bible is however perfect
30:3530:35 - your understanding of the scriptures is this just information that the Lord has not provided in the scriptures you don’t
30:4030:40 - have it we don’t know how many Ang Angels there are we don’t know how many our compliments of Believers in the
30:4730:47 - church age ought to be we don’t know precisely how life in we have a lot of information how on the Millennium and we
30:5730:57 - don’t know exactly how life daytoday life the the nties of life in the Millennium
31:0431:04 - would be we don’t know even the tribulation which we’re very interested in and we have loads and loads of
31:1131:11 - information about we don’t know how daytoday life in the tribulation will be and when we when we talk about the
31:1831:18 - Eternal State it’s like this white um like a a white out you know it’s just going to be perfect it’s not
31:2831:28 - going to have any of the difficulties and hardships of this life but you don’t know anything else and if you want to be
31:3531:35 - really curious curious about it you’re still not going to find anything out because the Lord does not provide the
31:4031:40 - information in the scriptures so it’s it’s we have the same sort of issue except that in their own
31:4731:47 - case it had to do with who God is they they didn’t know very much just how the persons who the persons of of the
31:5731:57 - godhead were and how their rules were were distributed they didn’t know anything much about all of that they did
32:0332:03 - know that there was some multiplicity because they spoke about it but what it meant they could not have known likewise
32:1032:10 - just like you said they didn’t know how the coming of the Messiah would have been which is an interesting thing we we
32:1632:16 - have to think about this when Isaiah was prophesying about the Messiah on the one hand he was prophesying about someone
32:2332:23 - who was going to suffer and die on the other hand he was prophesying about someone who was going to rule the world
32:2932:29 - and this person was God somehow I I can imagine that if he TR if he read his own writings he would have been like I don’t
32:3532:35 - know what I just said it would have been really interesting to be Isaiah at that
32:4232:42 - point um but the scriptures are quite clear like I said that they didn’t know what we know today it was not given to
32:4932:49 - them to know and this this also is why I think of their Fai sometimes as being significantly great and probably greater
32:5832:58 - than that of people of our days even though with uh when much is given to you much is
33:0533:05 - expected of you and with with the explosion and and the completeness of the cannon explosion of Truth in our
33:1133:11 - days we have more to fight with the enemy in the own days of course it was a different
33:1633:16 - situation but still we blessed to have more than we more than they did yeah that’s what I
33:2533:25 - and I really do think that is a point that we should kind of carry with us as we go about trying to do what God wants
33:3133:31 - of us is that we are in fact blessed and in fact in the history of the world we’re sort of the odd ones out here so
33:3933:39 - before Abraham that period 2,000 years give or take from Adam to Abraham well they didn’t even have the law pointing
33:4733:47 - them to the Messiah right this is a so-called age of the Patriarchs um sorry not age of the Patriarchs the age of the
33:5433:54 - Gentiles um and then from Abraham to Christ we have the age of the Patriarchs so Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and the
34:0234:02 - 12 tribes of Israel and uh they had the Shadows of the law pointing them to Christ right the ritual sacrifices and
34:1034:10 - all the symbolism in the temple but now we have the cannon of scripture the very mind of Christ as Paul says in First
34:1934:19 - Corinthians um how much more than does God expect of us on account of this um because they did not know they had
34:2734:27 - ignorance as an excuse like not that they would throw it up as an excuse but it is objective fact that they did not
34:3434:34 - see as clearly as we did not because they were substandard Believers but because God had not given it to them it
34:4134:41 - was not yet time as we said um and so on that account um when we have all of this Truth at our fingertips nowadays we have
34:5234:52 - all of this this teaching the shoulders of Bible teachers for Millennia we can stand on in so far as they have done
34:5934:59 - their due diligence and and contributed to our understanding of the truth well what is our excuse for living sort of
35:0635:06 - mediocre Christian lives then given everything that God has given to us um and so this isn’t to try to crush us
35:1435:14 - with some burden it is to just talk about what we have been given this idea of the truth revealed to us is kind of
35:2335:23 - something that I just I I feel like a lot of us don’t we don’t talk about that very much we don’t metabolize it try to
35:2935:29 - think on it what does it mean for us to live in this age where God has revealed all these things to us um and so of
35:3735:37 - course this is why learning believing applying the Bible is so important to us because it is God’s truth it is the
35:4335:43 - truth that the Old Testament Believers wish they had um and we have it at our fingertips um so not overly belabor that
35:5335:53 - point more but I think it’s very very uh appropo to the situation but it’s also something that we should take away from
36:0036:00 - everything that we’re talking about here um so much less just understanding of the Trinity but just understanding of
36:0536:05 - what God did for us and how he will save us um AI made a statement something to the effect that maybe we don’t always
36:1236:12 - appreciate the faith of those in the Old Testament but we kind of understand that we’re forgiven on account of what Christ
36:1836:18 - did for us on the cross well because we understand what the cross meant you know that it was is Christ paying for our
36:2536:25 - sins as the will substitute the people in the Old Testament they didn’t have that to Look
36:3236:32 - Backwards at they didn’t have this sort of guarantee you know they they didn’t see Jesus crucified for their sins and
36:4036:40 - understand that God actually did pay he paid for all of it they just had to believe him that he would um because God
36:4536:45 - told them that they would be saved and they would be delivered and they kind of had to take his word for it I’m not that
36:5136:51 - we don’t of course believing in Jesus Christ and what he did for us still requires faith on our part but the point
36:5636:56 - is they did it without understanding we at least have an understanding of well how exactly
37:0337:03 - will God save us um he saves us through the cross that is that is in fact how he saves everybody but Old Testament
37:1037:10 - Believers like this passage I think it’s Romans 325 I want to say um talks about how people in the Old Testament were uh
37:1937:19 - you know they were saved very much by faith because they didn’t understand uh they were saved on
37:2537:25 - credit was kind of what I was going to word the god passed over their sins because all sin was paid for it by
37:3137:31 - Christ on the cross um so anyway don’t want to get off topic there but um indeed we have this blessing that we
37:3937:39 - have been given with this truth that has been revealed to us in our time um and so we just need to appreciate that and
37:4637:46 - try to uh do right by God in uh kind of working out what he wants for us given this knowledge that has been passed down
37:5537:55 - to us um so the next thing we’re going to talk about here in examining this introduction to
38:0538:05 - the idea of the trinity in the Old Testament is the concept of prophetic foreshorten so I kind of mentioned this
38:1238:12 - in the initial intros section of this lesson although I think I kind of butchered it a bit um but now that I
38:1838:18 - have the text in front of me hopefully I’ll do a better job here so the idea of foreshortening as a concept in art um or
38:2638:26 - how we represent like threedimensional reality on two Dimensions is this idea of if you have
38:3438:34 - an object in front of another object visually it kind of like covers up the thing behind it right so if you have uh
38:4138:41 - maybe a line of people you can see the first person in the line but maybe not the person behind them because they’re
38:4838:48 - blocked by the person in front of them and so in this mountain analogy which is is often a good uh is the one used
38:5738:57 - when people try to explain this concept in terms of theology if you have a range of mountains so you have a line of them
39:0439:04 - as commonly happens with the tectonic plates and you know it’s kind of how mountains are formed right they form in
39:0939:09 - lines not halfhazard um well when you have a range of mountains like this and you are standing in front of the first
39:1739:17 - one that first mountain is going to block your visibility of the mountains behind it and that is the idea of
39:2439:24 - foreshortening and so prophetic forh is the same concept that we have in art and then we’re going to apply that to
39:3139:31 - prophecy and so in the Old Testament the three persons in the Trinity stand in front of us like three Mighty mountains
39:3939:39 - one after the other all partially visible but not readily distinguishable from each other and so you might see
39:4739:47 - bits and pieces there but the amalgamation we can’t tell that it’s three separate things not one thing
39:5539:55 - because when we look at it headon all we see is this is this mountain before us and we can’t distinguish the three
40:0240:02 - Mountains from each other so only with the Revelation provided by the Incarnation of Jesus Christ and the New
40:0840:08 - Testament do we see the Old Testament picture of the Trinity from a sidelong perspective so that now the three
40:1540:15 - mountains become visible in their own right when viewed from this new vantage point and so the fundamental point to
40:2440:24 - kind of keep in mind when we talk about all this is that all three three mountains have always been there even if
40:3040:30 - Humanity was not previously able to distinguish them from one another that is it’s not like after the New Testament
40:3640:36 - God suddenly like split in three you know as if he I don’t know mutated or something um because as we’ve been
40:4240:42 - saying God does not change that is a very fundamental core aspect of God’s nature God does not change and so given
40:5040:50 - that this three Mountain version of God shall we say has always been how God Is Right persons one Essence that has
40:5940:59 - always been the nature of the Trinity but just because we didn’t see it doesn’t mean it wasn’t there and so
41:0641:06 - again one did not suddenly become three instead our perspective merely changed and so now that we see God from this new
41:1341:13 - vantage point so rather than uh looking at the first mountain right in front of us and and having our visibility
41:2041:20 - obstructed we we are now looking at it from a sidelong vantage point and we can see all three mountains in the mountain
41:2641:26 - range and they are clearly distinguishable from one another to us because we have this new vantage point
41:3341:33 - because we have the Revelation provided by the Incarnation of Jesus Christ and the New Testament we can see the three
41:4041:40 - members of the Trinity clearly distinguished from one another like the folks in the Old Testament times could
41:4641:46 - not because they didn’t have that Revelation and so this is is commonly used on prophetic foreshortening again
41:5241:52 - in fact not only used of the Trinity very commonly used when speaking of the return of Jesus Christ too because we
41:5941:59 - have the prophesied uh you know the the coming of the Messiah um in all this Old Testament prophecy and some of that was
42:0742:07 - fulfilled when Jesus came uh to die for human sin on the cross and some of it will only be fulfilled when Jesus
42:1342:13 - returns for a second time again compare like Revel Revelation 19: 11 and following when Jesus comes in glory for
42:2242:22 - the second time the return of Christ as the Conquering King all that other prophecy about Christ return will be
42:2842:28 - fulfilled but for the longest time people before the first coming of Christ they thought that they were going to get
42:3642:36 - the king the first time um they wanted Jesus to come and kick out the Romans um because Judea in the time that the
42:4242:42 - Christ was born and and uh lived his life in Judea was occupied by the Romans and so uh they wanted Jesus to come as
42:5242:52 - the Conquering King right then that’s the Messiah that they were looking for not the suffering servant of Isaiah 53
42:5842:58 - even though the suffering servant was there in the Bible they thought that they were going to get the Conquering
43:0243:02 - King up front and that idea of prophetic foreshortening is just as apparent there in the two comings of Christ as it is in
43:1143:11 - the Trinity because um both comings of Christ the first and the second when he comes with the sword so to speak well
43:1843:18 - they’re both there in Old Testament prophecy but a lot of the Old Testament folks didn’t distinguish the two comings
43:2643:26 - from each other they didn’t understand how they were different they saw them as one and the same in the same way that
43:3143:31 - when you look at the three members of the trinity in the Old Testament you you might have this conception of them as
43:3743:37 - being one thing even though when you look from that different perspective now you can clearly see them as three
43:4343:43 - distinct members of this this Triune hole um so that’s just another example of prophetic foreshortening this is not
43:5143:51 - unique to the doctrine of the Trinity is kind of what I’m trying to say um so uh in fact fact ichus has an entire section
43:5943:59 - on this concept in theology um so this is actually part of the coming tribulation series part of part one and
44:0544:05 - so I mean obviously we’re not going to go through all of this but it is one of the paradigms that we need to keep in
44:1144:11 - mind when we when we interpret Prophecy in the Bible um so I encourage folks who are interested uh the first part of the
44:1844:18 - coming tribulation series the section is called prophetic fores shortening um so Aus has this written up because it is
44:2544:25 - important to help us understand um the nature of God’s revelation of Truth to us again just two examples
44:3144:31 - we’ve gone through here the members of the Trinity as well as the uh the two separate comings of Christ these are are
44:3844:38 - two not the only ones there’s more examples too but two examples of prophetic for shortening in theology
44:4444:44 - Audi you have uh any more points to make on this concept in general I doubt that I’m going to be making any new points
44:5144:51 - but again if you look at those two passages that that we looked at recently um the Lord said to my Lord and um the
45:0145:01 - Lord Almighty has sent me and the person who is speaking is the Lord Almighty so that’s Zechariah 2 and um I believe it
45:0945:09 - was PSM I don’t remember what Psalm it was again so when you look at these two things they again give you that
45:1645:16 - demonstration a very graphic demonstration of what we’re talking about because the person who is Penning
45:2345:23 - these things down would be seeing something suggests there might be more than one
45:2945:29 - mountain here but he can’t clearly see the other Mountain he can’t clearly see it there is a mystery here the Lord
45:3845:38 - Almighty is speaking about the Lord Almighty and um the Lord is speaking to my
45:4645:46 - Lord again you can tell there’s a mountain range it’s just really hard to distinguish one from the other it’s only
45:5445:54 - with the benefit of the New Testament that we can say oh one is is actually the Son and the other is the spirit and
46:0046:00 - yet there’s another one who’s the father and you can actually say oh this one does this and the other does that and
46:0646:06 - the other does the last does something else it’s with the benefit of the New Testament and the gift of the spirit
46:1546:15 - this is something that is worth um dwelling upon a little bit I think that the gift of the spirit to live within us
46:2246:22 - provided us with a with an ability to see these things in a way that the those of the Old Testament could not like
46:3246:32 - Steven mentioned um people in Old Testament times could have an unction of the Spirit come upon them for short
46:3946:39 - periods but they did not have the spirit living inside of them because that their sins were yet to be paid for this is one
46:4646:46 - of the benefits of the cross for us so that we have actually become able we have been brought into a place where we
46:5146:51 - have innate to us the ability to actually understand these things so um yeah that’s that’s what I would
47:0047:00 - add to what you’ve said I think you’ve covered everything really there’s not much I say yeah it’s a good point um and
47:0747:07 - that that importance of the spirit like you said um you know all of this spiritual truth I suppose we can’t just
47:1347:13 - take it for granted but all of our understanding comes through the indwelling spirit um these aren’t just
47:1947:19 - intellectual matters we grasp them spiritually um and so that is important because we wouldn’t be able to
47:2547:25 - understand it all if God didn’t see F to help open our eyes um so just a buffer against human arrogance some is
47:3247:32 - understanding that our understanding of God’s plan is well mediated through God indwelling us and without that we would
47:3947:39 - still be very blind indeed so sort of as hinted at in the
47:4847:48 - introductory part of this lesson um I mentioned kind of just bringing up this question of well why did God decide to
47:5547:55 - Veil his trying nature in Old Testament times um so why wouldn’t God reveal himself to people in Old Testament times
48:0548:05 - that he was Triune you know that that his Essence was Triune that three beings one Essence why didn’t he reveal himself
48:1248:12 - as a Triune god um and so uh we know that he foreshadowed it it was seen kind of clearly there in some of the passages
48:2148:21 - we’ve been through in the three-fold repetition of holies um even more explicitly in in this this passage from
48:2848:28 - Psalm 110 and that passage in Zechariah 2 that AI has brought up before um well in all of these places we see the
48:3748:37 - Trinity uh sort of described in veiled fashion it’s there but kind of not as explicitly so why didn’t God as
48:4648:46 - explicitly reveal himself to the people in the Old Testament and so sometimes um you’ll hear as an explanation put forth
48:5548:55 - the prevention of Idol Tre and so that is the idea goes something like this God did not make his Triune nature known to
49:0249:02 - Israel in Old Testament times to help them falling into idolatry and so we’ll kind of talk about the mechanics of this
49:0949:09 - um in a separate you know a separate section in just a second here but uh kind of introd introducing this as a
49:1749:17 - possible explanation um this has Merit and it’s not that this isn’t true but it’s just not the only part the only
49:2549:25 - reason why God doesn’t do this um so we’re going to also argue that God did not reveal himself in Triune form before
49:3149:31 - the first Advent of Christ simply because the Trinity can only be clearly explained and understood after the first
49:3849:38 - Advent of Christ and so um you know we’ll get to that in just a second here um these are the two reasons that we’re
49:4649:46 - going to be putting forth for Why God decided to Veil this truth from people before the Advent of Christ um and so
49:5349:53 - the point is as we’ve been going over here God has good reasons for his progressive revelation of Truth to
49:5849:58 - humanity and we need to have unshakable faith in his wisdom and judgment that is God knows what he’s doing and that’s not
50:0750:07 - in the way that we humans think we do uh that is that we think we know what we’re doing because God is in complete control
50:1250:12 - of everything and nothing happens except that which is part of his plan and so um what I’m kind of getting at in this last
50:2050:20 - paragraph here this is me not So Much from the study um is that we need to be approaching this question of well why
50:2750:27 - didn’t God do this or why didn’t God do that from the reasons of well God certainly has very good reasons so what
50:3350:33 - are those reasons do you see how those are kind of two different things right um like as in phrasing it like wouldn’t
50:4150:41 - it have been better if God had done blank well we know on faith that it could not be better because what God
50:5050:50 - does is always the best and the purest and uh what of all things that could be done his plan is perfect that it isn’t
50:5850:58 - ever a matter of could there have been something better but what are possible explanations for Why God acted in this
51:0751:07 - way you know like can we see why God did it this way and just as one side note before we we carry on here
51:1551:15 - sometimes that isn’t even given to us um we are not owed an explanation um God can act as he sees fit because he is the
51:2551:25 - Creator and and owner and rer of the universe and he doesn’t have to justify himself to us but the mindset that we
51:3151:31 - need to adopt in this is not that asking questions is bad but that we need to do it with enough respect for God that we
51:3851:38 - give him the benefit of the doubt up front and so not that this one is a particularly common stumbling block I
51:4451:44 - don’t think but uh things like for example uh the problem of evil or suffering in the world uh so perhaps
51:5151:51 - succinctly put why if we have an all powerful God uh is there so much suffering in the world you know if he
51:5751:57 - says he loves us then then why is there suffering um that question certainly causes folks to stumble um but we need
52:0452:04 - to have that Faith up front that there are reasons for these things um and that’s true here as well that’s kind of
52:1152:11 - why I was trying to tie this in is why didn’t God do this why didn’t he give them the truth earlier you know couldn’t
52:1652:16 - they have been more spiritually mature if God had revealed more truth to them earlier I don’t know if youve ever heard
52:2252:22 - an argument like that it it’s really it’s like not the right argument to be made making is what I’m trying to say um
52:2952:29 - because it’s not as if for all the truth that we have been given like Audie and I have just spent some time talking about
52:3652:36 - it’s not as if even given all that truth everyone today makes such perfect use of it right and that’s why this this game
52:4352:43 - that people play with this hypotheticals of well wouldn’t it have been better if God did this or God did that as if we
52:4952:49 - think we know better than God well actually no it wouldn’t have been better because even despite all that truth that
52:5552:55 - we’ve been given in our day people don’t make it use of it so you can’t assume things like that that like
53:0153:01 - if you know you have 10 people at this time and place and God gives them this much truth and 10 people in this time
53:0753:07 - and place and God gives them this much truth and those people had an advantage because they got more truth that is such
53:1353:13 - a human way of looking at this that we just need to give God the benefit of the doubt up
53:1853:18 - front so um we will have more to say in just a moment on these reasons that we put forward you know these possible
53:2653:26 - explan in this particular case but this slide is introducing these two possible
53:3153:31 - explanations the purpose of this was more just to get us in that right mindset of thinking well not in
53:3753:37 - accusatory fashion of why didn’t God do this but like what are these explanations for why God’s plan is
53:4253:42 - perfect that is sort of the mindset that we need to have when we talk about this a you have any uh follow on thoughts to
53:4953:49 - any of that yeah I I completely like endorse everything you just said the right attitude to have when asking that
53:5853:58 - question is to understand the way God thinks not to accuse him of some kind of error in the way he does
54:0654:06 - things um just to okay let’s I think I think I can I can go that way um when we when we
54:1754:17 - think about the way that God structures things and we say well he wants everyone to be saved and he wants this and that
54:2654:26 - so it makes no sense that he does this and that um the Lord Jesus said that if the Miracles he did in his day
54:3854:38 - while he was on Earth in the flesh in the cities of Israel were done in Sodom and
54:4554:45 - gomorah they would have repented and he said too that those the the citizens of that City will stand in
54:5554:55 - judgment with this these citizens of the cities in which he was talking about capernum and the and the others and they
55:0255:02 - would condemn them well it’s like if God wanted them to
55:0855:08 - repent why didn’t he have those Miracles done but you
55:1655:16 - see we have to understand that God is not like us when we human beings want something it doesn’t matter what anybody
55:2355:23 - else wants that’s how we think think about things whereas the Lord wants people to repent but he doesn’t want
55:3155:31 - them to do it under duress he wants them to repent of their own free choice so for that reason if anything is
55:4055:40 - going to force you to do it without doing it willingly is not going to let you
55:4755:47 - experience that thing that’s a simple as that gets so likewise there’s a lot of truth that
55:5755:57 - the Lord is more than happy to give the Lord Jesus expressed that to to his disciples where he said I have so much
56:0356:03 - to tell you but you’re not ready to hear it and we see we see that unfolded we saw we saw it unfold in in Acts of the
56:1556:15 - Apostles consider for example how many times you if you read the book of John it’s it’s incredible it’s almost as if
56:2156:21 - John was speaking to Gentiles and telling them look you really do belong in the Faith as well he kept talking
56:2956:29 - about how Jesus said for example in chapter 10 that he had other sheep that were not of this fold that was to say
56:4056:40 - Gentiles were also his even though they were not born Israelites this is what Jesus said while
56:4856:48 - he was on Earth and when you go through the gospels he said these things multiple times and yet when it came to
56:5556:55 - acts of the Apostles the chief Apostle so to speak the one who was loudest and always around the Lord Jesus and zealous
57:0357:03 - for all things concerning the Lord Jesus right up to the point that he thought well if it’s going to be War I’ll kill
57:0957:09 - and get killed he was ready for that and yet when the spirit himself sent him to Cornelius to teach them the gospel he
57:2057:20 - had to be persuaded that it was the right thing for him to do he was with Jesus we resume when a centurion asked
57:2857:28 - for Jesus to heal his slave and Jesus was going to the man’s house why did Peter think that there was
57:3857:38 - something wrong with him doing the same thing and this was not where it ended later on Paul had to remonstrate with
57:4457:44 - him about his behavior with the Galatians that’s just to tell you how difficult it was for them
57:5357:53 - to understand certain things that were even being told to them how much more in the era before the spirit was
58:0258:02 - poured out that is just to tell us how hard it is for us to stomach some things that God wants us to know and like like
58:1258:12 - Professor Robert said I believe that that’s a very sound argument if the Lord Jesus did not come speaking about the
58:2058:20 - Trinity would have been a huge huge difficulty for anybody to deal with with when he came demonstrating in every way
58:3058:30 - that he was truly a member of the Trinity they still did not believe him how much more when he was not
58:3858:38 - there that’s we’ll get to that just just just forur the record we’ll get to that that’s like two slides next it present
58:4658:46 - so it’s a very important it’s crucial that is one of the crucial points that we’re going over here um one of the
58:5258:52 - other examples based on what you’d said um why did Jesus speaking Parables it’s another one right we may have talked
59:0059:00 - about this before I don’t remember maybe not this series but um if God wants everyone to understand the truth why
59:0559:05 - didn’t he just tell them the truth um it’s because he gives us the ability to choose right um Choice Free Will is so
59:1359:13 - fundamental to this but it’s the same thing right why did God why did God why did God when we ask these questions that
59:2059:20 - was the point here it needs to be it like I said curiosity is not bad it is not an unreasonable thing for us to be
59:2859:28 - curious as to you know like what are God’s reasons for doing this you know and we can pray about it for sure um but
59:3559:35 - it needs to just not be accusatory that’s all there is to this curiosity is fine accusing God is not right we need
59:4159:41 - to have that faith and trust that God knows what he is doing and in fact it’s us who’s too blind to actually see it
59:4859:48 - and and like I said before sometimes there are certain things that God has not given to us to know now I confess to
59:5659:56 - being rather cross when people use that particular line of thinking because a lot of things that some people fancy as
01:00:0201:00:02 - being not for Humanity to know I think are actually things that are the Bible speaks of like let’s say prophecy and uh
01:00:1101:00:11 - eschatology end times interpretation Bible has all sorts of things to say about that that is not something that
01:00:1701:00:17 - God has seen fit to Veil from us completely but more what I’m talking about is like what exactly will eternity
01:00:2201:00:22 - be like I mean we kind of have some descriptions of the new heaven in the new Earth but not nearly as much as we
01:00:2801:00:28 - would like right um yeah and there’s plenty of other things like that that’s what I’m talking about um but we’re
01:00:3401:00:34 - allowed to wonder but we don’t get to second gu God because we are so far beneath him in perspective that it’s
01:00:4301:00:43 - like I mean just to use an analogy um if you’ve ever been around small children who ask
01:00:4801:00:48 - questions that you know it’s really hard to explain them to the child’s level right so why doesn’t God things explain
01:00:5601:00:56 - to us well because we are like small children asking him to explain something that you know we haven’t a hope of
01:01:0201:01:02 - understanding except infinitely more so right if we understand this with children who are at least human and they
01:01:0801:01:08 - are at least Bound by similar sets of constraints as us well how much more is it not like that for when we come
01:01:1601:01:16 - whining to God about not understanding something even if he wanted to if he were to tell us as it actually is we
01:01:2201:01:22 - would not understand um and so it’s all this is just going back to that point that I was making about it’s just about
01:01:2901:01:29 - the attitude we have when we look into these things um so yeah okay of the two reasons that we just
01:01:4101:01:41 - went over for why perhaps God chose to Veil the triun nature of his Essence in the Old Testament rather than making it
01:01:4801:01:48 - clear to them in the same way that he did after the Incarnation well we’re going to be talking about idolatry as a
01:01:5401:01:54 - possible explanation for God veiling of his nature and so um this is not some mere hypothetical here um Israel
01:02:0301:02:03 - actually really did struggle with idolatry like it’s not like we’re just making things up here um it was a major
01:02:1001:02:10 - problem in ancient times and it was historically one of Israel’s most serious stumbling blocks and this is
01:02:1701:02:17 - pretty commonly uced as like the reason um you know reason singular for why U God chose to Veil the trinity in Old
01:02:2701:02:27 - Testament times um and so it is true um and and we’re not going to argue against it it is true that the threat of
01:02:3401:02:34 - idolatry to the faith and practice of Old Testament Believers was a very real one so Dr Le will give some examples
01:02:4001:02:40 - here we only need to consider that the first two of The Ten Commandments deal with the subject right so I am you shall
01:02:4701:02:47 - have no other gods before me and you shall not make for yourself an idol or any likeness right first two
01:02:5301:02:53 - Commandments definitely idolatry focused and that if you consider um the passage in numbers 25 talking about um balam’s
01:03:0201:03:02 - Council of idolatrous Seduction you know this was very damaging to Israel so we’re not going to go read the whole
01:03:0801:03:08 - chapter although of course this is you know cross references on point because that’s exactly why Dr lugino quotes it
01:03:1601:03:16 - um but the point is that idolatry was far from some toothless threat to uh the the survival of the faith of the
01:03:2401:03:24 - Israelites um it was a very real and practical threat it wasn’t just some uh abstract hypothetical and so the
01:03:3401:03:34 - argument as it goes suggests that there was a need to emphasize the Oneness of the god sorry of God in the face of this
01:03:4201:03:42 - very real polytheistic threat thus obviating any possible twisting of a proper understanding of the Trinity and
01:03:4901:03:49 - so the way that we’re going to go with this is basically that this explanation does possess of value it is not false
01:03:5801:03:58 - that’s not what we’re saying is that it isn’t the only thing that we should focus on when we talk about this and
01:04:0301:04:03 - we’ll get to that um in the next thing we talk about talking about how the fact that Jesus hadn’t come yet is also a
01:04:0901:04:09 - very real explanation for why God had chose not to unveil all of the truth of the Trinity um but this idea of idolatry
01:04:1801:04:18 - and emphasizing the Oneness of the god in the face of the polytheistic Pagan pantheons it is true and it is is you
01:04:2601:04:26 - know a very a very reasonable reason why God would not um uh try to uh you know explain the Triune nature that he has to
01:04:3701:04:37 - the Israelites in the times when the Israelites were surrounded on all sides by Pagan pantheons and were likely to
01:04:4401:04:44 - twist it and so we should note here this is in a footnote on N this although I moved it directly into the slide here
01:04:5001:04:50 - that Pagan pantheons not to mention Pagan religions proper they are different from and the true worship of
01:04:5601:04:56 - him in every way that is of course God is not a Pantheon of course the Trinity is different from pantheons but the
01:05:0401:05:04 - problem is is that people could twist it um and so this would have been obvious to True Believers um revelation of the
01:05:1101:05:11 - Trinity notwithstanding um so uh two points here and we we’ve already kind of been over
01:05:1701:05:17 - this when we were talking about God’s nature um Pagan pantheons are never even close to being one in purpose as the
01:05:2401:05:24 - Trinity is um that is what being shared Essence means um they have this Unity of Will and purpose that completely boggles
01:05:3101:05:31 - our minds we don’t have any human analogy as we pointed out before um no nor are there individual members so
01:05:3801:05:38 - integral to the existence of the whole as in the Trinity is not the Trinity without all three members of the Trinity
01:05:4401:05:44 - whereas you could have a Pantheon of gods and well if you take away one of the Gods it’s still a Pantheon of gods
01:05:5001:05:50 - right um whereas if you take away one of the members of the Trinity it’s no longer the Trinity so these are ways in
01:05:5501:05:55 - which the Trinity is not a Pantheon um but it is worth pointing out that throughout much of the existence of
01:06:0301:06:03 - church history actually you know understanding the Trinity and understanding exactly what it means for
01:06:0901:06:09 - three person’s one Essence and it was hard even after Jesus Christ came right people still got muddled up on this
01:06:1601:06:16 - point there were still people who tried to treat the Trinity like a Pantheon um and that was after Jesus Christ had come
01:06:2201:06:22 - we had more Revelation at that point people still had problems with it and so how much more so would this have been
01:06:2901:06:29 - the case when Israel was surrounded on all sides by these Pagan religions who had these pantheons and so even if you
01:06:3701:06:37 - know no matter how God explained this to the people there would have been people who would have properly understood those
01:06:4301:06:43 - with faith would have taken God’s words and believed and trusted in him but there would have been people who would
01:06:5001:06:50 - have you know basically taken the words of God and then somehow themselves that God uh uh the judeo Christian God was
01:07:0101:07:01 - somehow a Pantheon um because that was what their frame of reference was um so again we are not suggesting that this
01:07:0901:07:09 - alone is the reason why God failed the Trinity but it is a reason um and in fact we’re going to argue that the
01:07:1501:07:15 - second one that we’re going to go over is probably the more important reason um but it is perfectly valid for us to
01:07:2101:07:21 - observe this and hypothesize because I don’t think we actually have anything in the Bible that says this explicitly it’s
01:07:2701:07:27 - sort of an inference but hypothesize that this is a good reason for God to have chosen to reveal truth in the times
01:07:3401:07:34 - and places that he did a you have any any further points you’re speaking you’re
01:07:4001:07:40 - muted okay sorry I I forgot that I was muted I was saying that um first I already I already went here before
01:07:5001:07:50 - before it was time to go here and yeah the other thing too is that I I I like how Professor Robert essentially says
01:07:5901:07:59 - it’s not that idolatry was not something to worry about but that um it’s not it does not fully answer
01:08:1001:08:10 - why uh God did not give this information earlier as we have said and as you have said just now even if even with the
01:08:2101:08:21 - coming of the Lord Jesus idolatry is still an issue even with the Jews themselves it’s not like it’s way out
01:08:2801:08:28 - there so we have all of those um all of those things uh but it it is it is part of the answer it’s part of the answer
01:08:3801:08:38 - because it essentially says look people are already struggling with understanding God as
01:08:4401:08:44 - one one not entity in this case but you know as one understanding that God is one almost almost everything in the Old
01:08:5301:08:53 - Testament was driving in toward know that I am not like the gods of your of your people of of your neighbors sorry
01:09:0201:09:02 - all the Gentile Nations surrounding Israel God kept telling I’m not like that I am
01:09:1101:09:11 - one that was a very big deal but there would have been some confusion too if um he is one and then they see that he is
01:09:2101:09:21 - three so there is there is that too but at the same time like we said it was it’s more than that it’s part of the
01:09:2901:09:29 - answer but it’s not the whole answer that that’s what uh Professor Robert is pointing out and I I completely agree
01:09:3701:09:37 - with that I mean I should say too that it’s not like when Jesus came and died for our sins and we had this revelation
01:09:4401:09:44 - of the Trinity when when God actually did give believers an understanding of the Trinity you know uh one Essence
01:09:5101:09:51 - three persons well Rome had a Pantheon too albeit they mostly copied the Greeks but like they were still a a society in
01:10:0101:10:01 - a culture whose religion was fundamentally a Pantheon it wasn’t like it was different then but part of the
01:10:0901:10:09 - difference too is that obviously the focus um you know you brought up Paul and uh Peter being led to to go to
01:10:1501:10:15 - Cornelius and salvation was for the Gentiles too um is that there wasn’t quite the same degree of maintaining the
01:10:2401:10:24 - separation of Israel as a nation right I almost think this is a fundamental point to this is that idolatry of Israel was
01:10:3201:10:32 - seen as a national problem right Israel was a pure theocracy in a way that government systems um before and since
01:10:4001:10:40 - really haven’t been right Rome was not a theocracy not really um United States is certainly not um you know separation of
01:10:4601:10:46 - church and state uh people view it as rather important actually um but for Israel their idolatry had National
01:10:5601:10:56 - consequences um their their actions their in fact their relationship with God drove the policy of their Nation we
01:11:0301:11:03 - could say um the Kings they got good Kings and bad kings depended upon the righteousness of the people um so I
01:11:1101:11:11 - think pretty fundamental to this idolatry explanation too is not so much that there were nations with idolatry
01:11:1901:11:19 - around them as that the distinction between Israel and those Nations had to be maintained um a do you know there’s
01:11:2601:11:26 - this passage that that talks about marrying foreign wives um it’s in like the Minor Prophets somewhere is it um um
01:11:3401:11:34 - yeah let let mea maybe or um it would be it’s actually in the in the law um well no I’m talking about specifically where
01:11:4501:11:45 - um a number of the Jews had married foreign wives and they were told to okay that’s an Ezra Ezra okay yeah it’s an
01:11:5401:11:54 - Ezra um but I mean I was just trying to say that this distinction of keeping the people of Israel
01:12:0101:12:01 - separate that’s a a fundamental part of of this um this is not separate from that and that is why the whole idolatry
01:12:0901:12:09 - thing like sorry the paganism thing well Rome was still Pagan in fact so were the Greeks you know because you know it
01:12:1601:12:16 - spread to Greece and Rome both of those were still Pagan societies as in they had a Pantheon however it was no longer
01:12:2401:12:24 - about keep Israel separate from them it was about the spread of the Gospel it’s a different time a different place but
01:12:3001:12:30 - for the Israel’s existence that’s what we’re talking about here not the time when the gospel is spreading throughout
01:12:3601:12:36 - the Mediterranean but for the period of Israel’s existence as a Theocratic State maintaining that separation was crucial
01:12:4501:12:45 - and that’s why this was kind of the big deal then uh maybe that helps shed a bit more light on why then versus after the
01:12:5301:12:53 - cross you know like why why were those different respect to pantheons um yeah okay yeah and so I think that’s
01:13:0101:13:01 - all there is like we said this is part of the answer but it is not the answer in and of itself um just one thing to
01:13:0701:13:07 - close with here is I think we have this uh this temptation as humans to want to kind of explain it all feel like we’ve
01:13:1401:13:14 - kind of got all the the pieces on the board arranged in the proper format and see like I understand now um uh I have
01:13:2101:13:21 - this problem I’m just like speaking for myself n equals 1 personally I want to understand and see how all the
01:13:2701:13:27 - pieces fit together and kind of be able to have this full accounting of things put everything in nice neat boxes and be
01:13:3501:13:35 - able to give explanations um just gonna kind of repeat what I said before that sometimes
01:13:4001:13:40 - we aren’t given to know um and understanding when we are and when we are not is actually pretty important
01:13:4701:13:47 - when we kind of dive into trying to answer theological questions is this something that God has given for mankind
01:13:5301:13:53 - to know can I work hard and come to an answer or am I just deluding myself if I think I have an answer um why I’m
01:14:0101:14:01 - bringing that up here is because I think it might be tempting for some people to stop here to say aha look I found the
01:14:0701:14:07 - answer this is the answer kind of open shut I’m not going to talk about this anymore right because they found
01:14:1301:14:13 - something that seems convincing and uh well I can explain everything in the world and we’re just going to leave it
01:14:1801:14:18 - there um God did this because this right but we need to make sure that when we do try to explain things we don’t we don’t
01:14:2701:14:27 - necessarily always take the easy path I maybe I’m being really vague here but just like you can’t just leave it here
01:14:3301:14:33 - um and I think this feeds into that human arrogance of feeling like we can actually understand God’s plan I we kind
01:14:3901:14:39 - of can God gives us information in order to understand how he’s working in the world but we’re not going to get it all
01:14:4601:14:46 - figured out and so to the extent that you ever feel like you’ve got it all figured out maybe take a step back and
01:14:5201:14:52 - understand that God’s just a lot bigger than we are um and so uh I I don’t think most folks
01:14:5801:14:58 - have a problem with this I think sometimes people who really want to try to find explanations for everything will
01:15:0301:15:03 - tend to uh perhaps get too wetted to single reasons right they put all their eggs in one basket so to speak um and
01:15:1201:15:12 - because we’re so finite sometimes we don’t have that that overarching perspective that God does so maybe he’s
01:15:1801:15:18 - doing it for this reason and then 500 other reasons besides that we can’t even see right that’s kind of what I’m trying
01:15:2501:15:25 - to say here um yeah to the extent that we think we we know why we’re probably only seeing part of the iceberg is what
01:15:3301:15:33 - I’m trying to say um true true all right well with that uh we will soon enough turn into explaining perhaps
01:15:4201:15:42 - the the bigger part of the reason for God’s veiling and that is the revelation of Jesus Christ and how much how
01:15:5001:15:50 - necessary that is for properly explaining the trinity so next we’re going to be talking here
01:15:5901:15:59 - about sort of the second part of the reasoning for Why God did not reveal his Triune nature to Old Testament Believers
01:16:0701:16:07 - and so idolatry being the first part that we went over here and the idea that God wanted to emphasize his Oneness and
01:16:1601:16:16 - his unity in the face of all of the Pagan pantheons around the nation state of Israel and how they had to stay
01:16:2501:16:25 - separate that was critically important for the survival of uh the Jewish culture and um just belief in God in
01:16:3301:16:33 - general um if they didn’t stay separate they could be completely assimilated by some of these other Pagan cultures and
01:16:4101:16:41 - that would be well the end of those who follow the one true God and so God could have kept some of the description of his
01:16:4901:16:49 - Triune nature veiled so that it would preserve the idea of theism in the eyes of the people of Israel um so that is
01:16:5901:16:59 - part one now part two what we’re going to be talking about now is perhaps even a little bit simpler conceptually than
01:17:0501:17:05 - that in that God did not reveal uh the full roles in the Trinity and how they relate until after Jesus Christ had come
01:17:1501:17:15 - down and died for our sins in the world after the Incarnation and before we could see
01:17:2101:17:21 - Jesus Christ you know the idea of three person of God um as we have already sort of argued and we’ll continue to argue it
01:17:2901:17:29 - was there in the Old Testament but uh it was not uh so easy for Old Testament Believers to discern between the members
01:17:3901:17:39 - so God is God there is one true God that is something that they would have understood but that that God exists in
01:17:4501:17:45 - these three persons would not have been as obvious and so the argument more or less
01:17:5201:17:52 - for this idea of God did not reveal all of the truth of the Trinity until Jesus Christ had come goes something like this
01:18:0201:18:02 - so before we see with our own eyes Christ come in the flesh his humility his suffering his sacrifice for us can
01:18:0901:18:09 - we really truly appreciate in full the Trinity and what God has chosen for us to do in Christ’s Incarnation and Death
01:18:1601:18:16 - on the cross so without actually seeing it or having the words uh divinely inspired through the words of of the
01:18:2501:18:25 - writers of the New Testament such that we hear about it through their witness could we really properly
01:18:3201:18:32 - appreciate what the Trinity is and what God has chosen to do for us in sending his son to die for us so uh if you take
01:18:4001:18:40 - a step back and you think about well how could God have done this in a way other than which he did you know like let’s
01:18:4601:18:46 - say God had told old test Believers through the mouths of some of the Major Prophets so perhaps Isaiah or Jeremiah
01:18:5401:18:54 - or one of the other Major Prophets in Old Testament times well here’s how you know humanity is going to be saved and
01:19:0201:19:02 - he spells it all out perhaps kind of explicitly you know uh I’m going to send a person who is my son I mean we have
01:19:0901:19:09 - the Virgin birth is prophecied in Isaiah you know that is there although you know obviously not quite as connected as as
01:19:1501:19:15 - perhaps spelling it all out in expository detail but if God told them well I exist in three persons and I’m
01:19:2301:19:23 - going to send you know the son into the world to take your sins upon the cross to die for you and you
01:19:3001:19:30 - know the spirit is going to make that possible and I will accept the sacrifice as the atonement for human sin well
01:19:3801:19:38 - without having you know the the Life of Christ before them and and knowing him seeing him in the flesh understanding
01:19:4601:19:46 - what suffering he went through would they have been able to understand it all um and L we think well you know God
01:19:5401:19:54 - could just make it I don’t know like a parent to them or whatever well he certainly could we we know that we
01:20:0101:20:01 - only understand spiritual truth through the holy spirit that indwells us that sort of opens our eyes to the spiritual
01:20:0801:20:08 - aspect of things in this world but nonetheless the point remains that without actually having the witness of
01:20:1501:20:15 - Jesus Christ in the life he lived and the death he died to redeem us a lot of the plan for the Trinity as in the roles
01:20:2301:20:23 - that they have adopted for the Redemption of humankind just kind of doesn’t make a lot of sense I mean like
01:20:2901:20:29 - God could try to explain it but in the absence of actually kind of seeing Christ be and born and live and and die
01:20:3601:20:36 - in our place human beings would have a really hard time sort of understanding it it’d be kind of abstract and so this
01:20:4501:20:45 - is sort of the simple argument for Why God would choose to only progressively reveal his his full Triune nature only
01:20:5301:20:53 - after the cross only after Christ had had come and lived and died and was resurrected was because only then kind
01:21:0001:21:00 - of could we properly appreciate what the Trinity what the members of the Trinity were doing what God’s plan was to save
01:21:0701:21:07 - us and how the members of the Trinity are involved in that plan because prior to that I mean it’s not like the three
01:21:1401:21:14 - members of the Trinity didn’t act in the Old Testament or or didn’t share responsibilities in a division of labor
01:21:2101:21:21 - in some way but God’s full plan for the Redemption of humanity obviously came about during the life of Jesus Christ
01:21:2901:21:29 - under kenosis under the life he lived and the death he died to save us and so you just can’t kind of properly explain
01:21:3701:21:37 - the roles of God without talking about the Incarnation it’s really that simple um and so Dr Lugo phrases it like this
01:21:4501:21:45 - without the accomplished reality of the Incarnation of Jesus how could we ever but dimly conceive the glory of it so
01:21:5201:21:52 - without seeing it so not only understand but how could we appreciate it without having it before us and without the
01:22:0001:22:00 - accomplished fact of his Incarnation how could we possibly understand and appreciate the Triune nature of God for
01:22:0601:22:06 - it’s only through Christ after he has come into the world in person that we begin to see God with the clarity of
01:22:1401:22:14 - vision it has now been given to us to possess and so the verse references that Dr lul cites here uh John 1 verse 18
01:22:2301:22:23 - says no one has seen God at any time the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the father he has explained him so
01:22:3201:22:32 - probably translate that this is the 1995 version of the nas we probably translate that as you know the I have to see this
01:22:3901:22:39 - word in Greek is probably monogenes that’s the Greek word here probably the one and only God who is in the bosom of
01:22:4601:22:46 - the father but regardless the point is that we only understand the father we we have him explained to us by Jesus Christ
01:22:5501:22:55 - um and so when Jesus comes to Bear witness about the father you’ll hear that phrasing is all throughout the
01:23:0101:23:01 - Gospel of John uh well Jesus came as a messenger as the messenger capital T definite article of God and you know um
01:23:1201:23:12 - you another verse I think I’ve brought this one up before I really like the first chapter of the book of Hebrews
01:23:1801:23:18 - especially how we talk about how God speaks through his son right in the past God spoke to our ancestors through the
01:23:2501:23:25 - prophets at many times and in various ways but in these last days he has spoken to us by his son whom he
01:23:3201:23:32 - appointed he of all things through whom he made the universe so God gave Jesus Christ to us as a message um so uh you
01:23:4101:23:41 - know aside from Jesus saving us in his actions he was also God’s testimony to us about who he is and what he is doing
01:23:5001:23:50 - for us and so this is why we say that we don’t oops well don’t need that um we don’t
01:23:5901:23:59 - need sorry we do not properly understand God independent from what Jesus Christ did for us we cannot in fact and so that
01:24:0701:24:07 - was John chapter 1 vers 18 just getting this idea that Jesus Christ in his witness to us um as God speaking to us
01:24:1501:24:15 - how Hebrews chapter 1 says well that was sort of necessary for us to understand God and so that is why the progressive
01:24:2401:24:24 - Revelation in terms of the Triune nature of God would happen after this point and then likewise John 14 verse 9 and uh
01:24:3501:24:35 - Jesus here is saying that anyone who has seen him has seen the father um and so if you take a step back and you think
01:24:4301:24:43 - about exactly what that means we we see the father you know and that is not just visibly with our eyes you have to
01:24:5001:24:50 - understand the metaphorical aspect of seeing here um so that’s pretty common in languages at least it certainly is in
01:24:5701:24:57 - Greek where you you kind of we even have this turn of phrase in English either you’d say that you know for example he
01:25:0401:25:04 - came to see that uh the thing was not going to happen or something like that um he he didn’t like see something with
01:25:1101:25:11 - his eyes he kind of comprehended it with his mind and so too here in John chapter 14 ver9 when Jesus says to Philip he who
01:25:2001:25:20 - has seen me has seen the father so how can you say show us the father Jesus is saying that he is actually as we just
01:25:2801:25:28 - said a witness of the Father the person through whom you know his disciples the the people who believed in him and
01:25:3601:25:36 - followed him could actually understand the father because he was you know I go back to Hebrews chapter 1 he was the
01:25:4401:25:44 - radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being um that is what Jesus Christ was
01:25:5101:25:51 - and that is how we see the father through him so to pull us all back to the general idea here that’s kind of
01:25:5701:25:57 - what we’re doing in this slide introducing it is that well we could not properly understand the Triune nature of
01:26:0301:26:03 - God independent from this witness of Jesus Christ so as we kind of go on to talk about this a little bit more here
01:26:1101:26:11 - um so when the temple veil that symbolically separated us from the presence of God was Split in Two by
01:26:2001:26:20 - Christ sacrifice on our behalf that is you know Matthew chap 27 : 51 says that the veil of the temple was torn into two
01:26:2801:26:28 - from top to bottom and the Earth Shook and the Rocks were split when Christ was on the cross well so the veil that in
01:26:3401:26:34 - the Old Testament partially obscured the person of Christ from our view has been lifted by his actual Advent in the flesh
01:26:4201:26:42 - to die on our behalf and and save us from our sins paying for our sins on our behalf on the cross so now through our
01:26:5101:26:51 - faith in Jesus Christ we see God the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit more clearly than we ever could before this
01:26:5801:26:58 - happened um before the Advent of Christ and his Incarnation and his life and his suffering and his death for us we
01:27:0601:27:06 - couldn’t properly wrap our heads around exactly what this meant and so the ripping of the veil that is discussed
01:27:1501:27:15 - here uh in terms of the temple uh This is highly symbolic um and it is a powerful metaphor for us to understand
01:27:2401:27:24 - again going back to that idea of seeing we just talked about in John 14:9 here um seeing the father uh not so much as
01:27:3101:27:31 - in like with our eyes but with our minds well so too that Veil within our minds this veil of understanding that our you
01:27:4101:27:41 - know our ears were plugged and our eyes were darkened if you will things like that we have been given to see and hear
01:27:4701:27:47 - and understand these truths about God now because that veil was torn upon what Christ did for us um because through his
01:27:5701:27:57 - sacrifice on our behalf we are no longer separated from God in this way so it wasn’t just that reconciliation to God
01:28:0501:28:05 - we have uh Jesus paying for our sins so us being covered in the blood of Christ can now enter the presence of the father
01:28:1201:28:12 - in the third heaven but it’s also this separation in terms of understanding of being able to comprehend who God is and
01:28:2001:28:20 - what he’s doing to work out our Redemption so a couple more vers verses here 2 Corinthians 4:6 says for God who
01:28:2901:28:29 - said let light shine forth from the darkness is he who has shown forth his light into our hearts to illuminate our
01:28:3601:28:36 - knowledge of God’s glory in the person of Jesus Christ so from this verse we see that the knowledge of God’s glory
01:28:4501:28:45 - that we have comes through our understanding of the person of Jesus Christ um that is how light is shown
01:28:5201:28:52 - into our hearts so to speak um so you know illumination actually light in the darkness another common metaphor for
01:28:5901:28:59 - knowledge or understanding um you know because we don’t see or comprehend things in the darkness we we cannot uh
01:29:0801:29:08 - make sense of them well light as a metaphor for knowledge here it’s the same thing our hearts are illuminated
01:29:1501:29:15 - our understanding of God is illuminated um or elucidated even uh uh like Lucid lucid comes from the Latin word looks
01:29:2501:29:25 - which is light um so we have our understanding illuminated by the person of Jesus Christ and another verse here
01:29:3501:29:35 - from 2 Corinthians this time from chapter 3 2 Corinthians chapter 3:14 for until this very day the same
01:29:4301:29:43 - Veil remains upon their unbelieving hearts when the Old Testament is read and it is not removed when they hear
01:29:4901:29:49 - these scriptures because it is only done away with in Christ so we may go pull up this passage here um 2 Corinthians
01:29:5701:29:57 - chapter 3 is talking about the veiled glory of God um and so what do we say that was verse 14 yeah um so this is
01:30:0601:30:06 - talking about uh us reflecting the glory of God you know and uh the glory that was coming off of Moses’s face when he
01:30:1601:30:16 - uh you know like had come down the mountain um so Moses would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites
01:30:2301:30:23 - from seeing the end of what was passing away his face you know glowing with the glory of God as he came down the
01:30:3001:30:30 - mountain um but the veiled minds of the Believers here when the old Covenant is read it has not been removed because
01:30:3901:30:39 - only in Christ is it taken away that is and that’s the key Point here we only understand God our minds are only uh
01:30:4901:30:49 - unveiled so to speak so that we may see clearly once we understand the person of Jesus Christ um so verse 16 so 2
01:30:5801:30:58 - Corinthians chapter 3: 16 says whenever anyone turns to the Lord the veil is taken away right they have that light uh
01:31:0601:31:06 - the veil is removed um they can actually see properly they can see God for who he is
01:31:1201:31:12 - and what he is doing for us so this is you know on topic reference here 2 Corinthians chapter 3 the latter part of
01:31:2101:31:21 - that chapter gets at this idea of Glory and us not being able to properly see and understand it because people have
01:31:2801:31:28 - their hearts veiled until they understand the person of Jesus Christ and so to kind of pull it all together
01:31:3501:31:35 - here we would say that we see the sun more clearly after he comes into the world so we could compare John chapter 1
01:31:4401:31:44 - verse4 this is talking about you know the word uh Jesus as the per personified logos becoming flesh and dwelling among
01:31:5101:31:51 - us and we saw his glory Glory as of the only begotten of the father full of grace and truth um so that’s John 1
01:31:5901:31:59 - ver14 we see the son more clearly after he comes into the world the son can only reveal the father more clearly after he
01:32:0801:32:08 - comes into the world here’s that verse that we quoted before John 1:18 talks about how uh Jesus explains the father
01:32:1601:32:16 - um he has this witness this testimony that he brings about the father and the spirit cannot be sent to any dwell
01:32:2401:32:24 - Believers until after the son has been glorified and so uh this John 7:39 says um but this he he being Jesus spoke of
01:32:3501:32:35 - the Spirit uh whom those who believed in him were to receive for the spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet
01:32:4201:32:42 - glorified um so we know that Jesus sent the spirit the comforter uh you know as he was going back to Heaven as he was
01:32:5001:32:50 - ascending so that the apostles would have that indwelling Holy Spirit to help them in their Ministries you know we
01:32:5701:32:57 - this has been true in the church age ever since um Believers are indwell by the Holy Spirit God living within us um
01:33:0401:33:04 - but that couldn’t happen here this is what uh well not couldn’t but you know this verse says that the spirit was not
01:33:1001:33:10 - yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified so if the spirit is not given we don’t understand the empowerment of
01:33:1901:33:19 - his ministry we don’t understand the father because the father is revealed through the son and we don’t understand
01:33:2401:33:24 - the son before he actually comes into the world you know as the Incarnate Son of God uh the Divine logos living among
01:33:3201:33:32 - us that’s all three members of the Trinity that you can kind of see we do not properly understand them or the role
01:33:3901:33:39 - they play until the events of the Incarnation are completed and so for that reason we would say that the
01:33:4601:33:46 - Trinity can only be clearly explained and understood after the first Advent of Christ a task undertaken by the New
01:33:5401:33:54 - Testament um so uh you know everything else in the Epistles um and the other writings that we have in the New
01:34:0101:34:01 - Testament talking about you know uh God’s truth in a more specific revealed way that idea of progressive revelation
01:34:1101:34:11 - well all this happens only after the first Advent of Jesus Christ so to put that a little bit differently there’s a
01:34:1601:34:16 - reason why the New Testament was written after the Life of Christ um it’s different uh categorically different
01:34:2301:34:23 - from the old Old Testament because we have this specific revealed Truth uh we see without the veil in a way that the
01:34:3101:34:31 - Old Testament Believers were not given to and so we can contrast that a bit with the Old Testament before the first
01:34:4001:34:40 - Advent where the members of the Trinity were understandably not as clearly distinguished and so that kind of gets
01:34:4501:34:45 - back this idea of foreshortening we talked about before um someone standing in front of a range of mountains headon
01:34:5301:34:53 - might not be able to uh clearly distinguish that there are three of them they see the one in front of them and
01:34:5901:34:59 - and the ones behind that may be sort of blocked in their view by the first one whereas once they get some perspective
01:35:0601:35:06 - and step to the side they could see that they’re actually distinct that is that topic that we talked about here um
01:35:1301:35:13 - prophetic for shortening so um I think that is the main overview of why we would say that we do not proper
01:35:2401:35:24 - understand the Trinity roles we could not properly understand the Trinity roles until the first Advent of
01:35:3301:35:33 - Christ so that’s where we’re going to wrap this lesson here uh we have been talking about the Trinity’s visibility
01:35:4101:35:41 - in the Old Testament and uh we’re going to continue talking about this for the next couple lessons um but what we have
01:35:4901:35:49 - gone over in this one here is just talking about how with the Ben benefit of New Testament Revelation um so
01:35:5601:35:56 - further Revelation by God in Greater specificity we can see some of these things in the Old Testament that the
01:36:0401:36:04 - Believers of that time might have sort of questioned they had this this splinter in their mind if you will about
01:36:1001:36:10 - well what exactly does that mean why is Elohim plural why does God say that he made us in you know our image not you
01:36:1801:36:18 - know my image singular why is it first person plural um and things like that that um they might have had these these
01:36:2601:36:26 - questions we talked about this passage here in Matthew chapter 22 this is when um Jesus is saying my lord said to the
01:36:3501:36:35 - Lord said to my Lord and and this very obviously Messianic Psalm here quoting Psalm
01:36:4101:36:41 - 110 um we talked about prophetic foreshortening so the idea that uh in the Old Testament they they could have
01:36:4901:36:49 - seen um sort of analogist to a range of mountains but they would only see one they wouldn’t see them split out as
01:36:5701:36:57 - separate because they didn’t yet have the perspective to properly appreciate that so this idea of foreshortening in
01:37:0301:37:03 - art sort of maps pretty well onto prophecy we’ve we’ve argued this isn’t the only place as well that this happens
01:37:0901:37:09 - this also happens with the two advents of Christ the first Advent and the second Advent um some of the prophecy in
01:37:1601:37:16 - uh you know the major and the Minor Prophets in the Old Testament uh the two advents commonly get conflated like
01:37:2201:37:22 - they’re not obviously distinguishable from each other in the prophecy but now that Christ Has Come For the first time
01:37:2701:37:27 - we can kind of see better um but all of that sort of leading up to the question that we closed this lesson with of well
01:37:3401:37:34 - why did God choose to Veil The Triune nature he possesses in Old Testament times like why wouldn’t he just tell
01:37:4101:37:41 - them then uh so we have we’ve talked throughout about this idea of progressive revelation um we we gave two
01:37:4701:37:47 - big reasons here number one sort of the more minor reason if you will was that uh Israel had to stay separate from all
01:37:5401:37:54 - of its pagan neighbors who had these pantheons and emphasizing God’s Oneness monotheism was
01:38:0301:38:03 - this defining trait of uh the the people of Israel the Jewish people as opposed to their their neighbors uh well this
01:38:1101:38:11 - was one way to preserve that barrier of Separation um and we did mention how well it’s not as if when Jesus Christ
01:38:1801:38:18 - really did come that like Rome had a pagan Pantheon too for example but at this point and that leads us sort of
01:38:2501:38:25 - into the the second thing here which we said was almost the more important thing once Jesus Christ came God could kind of
01:38:3101:38:31 - actually properly explain the roles of the Trinity so Jesus coming into the world helps us understand the son he
01:38:3801:38:38 - Bears witness about the father so through him we see the father we read some verses about that and after his
01:38:4401:38:44 - glorification the holy spirit is sent to indwell us so only after the first Advent can we kind of truly understand
01:38:5201:38:52 - uh the roles of God in the plan sorry and the the plan of God and the roles that the members of the Trinity play in
01:38:5801:38:58 - that plan for our Redemption um so this is what we’ve talked about here sort of just introducing uh the idea of the
01:39:0501:39:05 - trinity in the Old Testament and uh this kind of a higher conceptual level we’re going to talk more in the coming lessons
01:39:1201:39:12 - about sort of how the Messiah is prefigured that’s what we’re going to talk about next time and then a couple
01:39:1701:39:17 - lessons from now we’ll be talking about the appearances of God in the Old Testament so the idea of theophanies
01:39:2401:39:24 - generally and christophanies specifically and you know kind of where Jesus shows up and how we can see him in
01:39:2901:39:29 - the Old Testament so those are the topics that we are going to be discussing in our coming lessons here
The Messiah Pre-figured in the Old Testament
Video
Summary
From the very beginning, the scriptures spoke of a Messiah that would come to save His people from their sins. All the way back in the earliest chapters of Genesis (with the protoevangelium and Abel’s blood sacrifice, for example), we can see that the Old Testament clearly pre-figures the Messiah. In this lesson we go over how both blood sacrifice and prophecy (in a more general sense) point not only to the person of the Messiah, but also His suffering.
Timestamps
0:000:00 - Intro and outline
01:3101:31 - Introduction: the Old Testament’s portrayal of the suffering of Christ
22:0722:07 - Blood sacrifice
38:4638:46 - Prophecy
50:0450:04 - Summary and outro
Content
(Derived from https://ichthys.com/1Theo.htm)
Introduction: the Old Testament’s portrayal of the suffering of Christ
Contrary to much conventional wisdom about the Old Testament, Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on our behalf is depicted everywhere in the Old Testament. Furthermore, we know from New Testament scripture that the necessity for the mission and suffering of the Messiah was understood clearly enough by Old Testament believers (as Christ explains on the road to Emmaus: Lk.24:27; see also 1Pet.1:10-12 and Heb.11:26).
In fact, there are in the Old Testament a large variety of “types” employed to pre-figure the incarnation, death and suffering of the Son of God on our behalf. The subject of typology will be covered in more extensive detail in part 4A of this series (Christology), but two major categories of the Old Testament’s portrayal of the suffering of Christ should be mentioned now:
Blood sacrifice
From the coats of skin that God provides for Adam and Eve to indicate that One will die in their place (Gen.3:21), to Abel’s sacrifice, superior to Cain’s because it depicts the Substitute’s death (Gen.4:4), to the Noahic covenant demanding respect for blood that represents the death of Another in our place (Gen.9:4), to the whole elaborate series of sacrifices commanded by the Mosaic law, all of which portray redemption through Another’s blood (cf. Heb.9:22ff.), God made extensive use of the “teaching aid” of blood sacrifice in order that it might be crystal clear to all Old Testament believers that forgiveness of their sins was no light matter: it was something that only God could do for them, and it involved a steep and bloody price that God would somehow have to pay Himself on behalf of those who trusted in Him.
Prophecy
The substitutionary suffering and death of Christ on our behalf is predicted and prophesied throughout the Old Testament, for example:
- Genesis 3:15: He will crush your head, and you, [serpent], will strike His heel.
- Numbers 21:9: So Moses made a bronze serpent and put it on a staff. And it came to pass that whoever was bitten by a serpent then looked at the bronze serpent would live.
- Psalm 22:1: My God, My God, why did You forsake Me?
- Isaiah 53:3: He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with suffering.
Video/audio transcript
00:0200:02 - all right so the next thing we’re going to be talking about as we discuss the idea of the Trinity sort of being in the
00:0900:09 - Old Testament is we’re going to talk specifically about how the Messiah is prefigured in the Old Testament so how
00:1700:17 - uh the life and suffering of Jesus Christ is actually demonstrated through some of the things that the Old
00:2300:23 - Testament Believers did or what God had told them so that uh it should have pointed to him uh they should have been
00:3100:31 - able to see that when the Messiah came certain things would be true um and so this is specifically looking at Jesus
00:3900:39 - Christ um as he shows up in the Old Testament even though yet as yet at that point in time the Trinity had not really
00:4700:47 - been revealed in totality to these Believers so we’re going to be sort of starting out by talking about blood
00:5400:54 - sacrifice this is probably sort of the most obvious thing that points us towards uh the sacrif ice of Jesus
01:0001:00 - Christ upon the cross for us but then we’re also going to be talking about just some miscellaneous prophecy and
01:0601:06 - this section is actually quite short I I don’t think this video will be super long here um but both of these things
01:1201:12 - help point us to uh the suffering of Christ and what the Messiah would do when he came to save us from our sins
01:1901:19 - and so these things present in the Old Testament text and we’re just going to be examining a bit how the Old Testament
01:2501:25 - speaks of the Messiah so how the Messiah is prefigured in in the Old Testament so first general introductory
01:3701:37 - point we’re going to be making here when we talk about the old testament’s portrayal of the suffering of Christ is
01:4301:43 - that even though there’s sort of conventional wisdom here about the Old Testament and you know the Old Testament
01:4901:49 - you know talks of just one God God the father and in fact sort of a different topic but people sometimes say that
01:5701:57 - there’s like a almost seems like God different right you know this this this judgmental mean God of the Old Testament
02:0502:05 - versus the the god of love in the New Testament of course we know that’s not true um and part of why we know that’s
02:1102:11 - not true is because God’s plan has always been the same from the beginning he did not change God does not change
02:1602:16 - he’s always been the loving God um but at any rate with respect to what we’re currently talking about the Old
02:2402:24 - Testament actually does talk about Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on our behalf that is the substitutionary death he
02:3202:32 - died to pay for our sins here um taking judgment upon his shoulders so that we might be reconciled to God that’s
02:3902:39 - actually depicted everywhere in the Old Testament so very far from somehow the Old Testament not speaking of Jesus
02:4502:45 - Christ like I don’t know the Old Testament speaks of of just God and then the New Testament rolls around and only
02:5102:51 - then do we hear about Jesus Christ and and the idea of you know his sacrifice on our behalf to save us from our sins
02:5802:58 - it’s actually true that from the very beginning this has always been the plan of God and in fact if you look with eyes
03:0403:04 - of Faith it’s all over the place in the Old Testament so she was actually very much on the other foot here people who
03:1003:10 - want to say well you know Christians just made up a bunch of new stuff and stuck it in the New Testament we’re kind
03:1603:16 - of like I think about the right way to say this like we’re we’re piggybacking on the Jewish Traditions but we just
03:2303:23 - made a bunch of stuff up and added it on as if you know only Jesus Christ shows up in the New Testament like we just
03:2903:29 - made him up and and sort of tacked him on top that’s just not true because the Old Testament points everywhere to Jesus
03:3903:39 - Christ in the suffering you know Isaiah chapter 53 I don’t actually think we’re even talk about that in this set of
03:4403:44 - slides here but you know just off the top of my head the suffering servant passage in Isaiah chapter 53 it very
03:5203:52 - much speaks of Jesus Christ um and so this idea that he’s not there in the Old Testament or that the Messiah isn’t
03:5903:59 - there or even more specifically the suffering Messiah rather than you know when Jesus returns with with the crown
04:0604:06 - in Revelation chapter 19 when he’s destroying the armies of antichrist you know obviously the people in Judea at
04:1304:13 - the time that he was there wanted him to kick out the Romans it’s kind of what they wanted the Messiah to do not
04:1904:19 - necessarily suffer and die on a cross it’s not what they were thinking the messiah’s role was but even this role of
04:2704:27 - the Messiah so not the Conquering King but the suffering servant and in fact the fact that Jesus would be shedding
04:3304:33 - his blood to pay for our sins that is prefigured all over the place in the Old Testament so it’s everything important
04:4004:40 - is actually all there it has always been there and and we’re just going to take a look at that a bit as we go here so from
04:5004:50 - New Testament scripture that the necessity for the mission and the suffering of Messiah we actually have it
04:5604:56 - from the Bible itself that what we’re saying is true as in the Bible itself says that the Old Testament
05:0505:05 - points to Jesus Christ like we’re not just like asserting this and uh waving our hand at it as if you know maybe we
05:1105:11 - could be wrong because sometimes humans come up with these theological uh uh propositions that don’t directly tie
05:1805:18 - back to scripture and you can be wrong about those and you can make a mistake you can miss a jump in the logic
05:2305:23 - somewhere or something like that but in Luke 24: 27 this is Jesus on the road to a
05:3005:30 - with the others and he it says that um Luke 24:27 says then beginning with Moses and all the prophets he he being
05:3905:39 - Jesus yeah uh explained to them the things concerning himself in all the scriptures and all the scriptures there
05:4705:47 - being the Old Testament scriptures so we dearly wish that we knew exactly what Jesus had said here like which passages
05:5505:55 - was he using to support you know the idea of the Old Testament speaking of himself you know we we quoted one in our
06:0306:03 - last lesson about Psalm 110 when David says you know the Lord says to my Lord um that Messianic Psalm you know that’s
06:1106:11 - a possibility uh Isaiah chapter 53 we just mentioned that’s a possibility there’s in fact there’s all sorts of
06:1806:18 - things as we’re going to kind of see in in very brief form here there’s all sorts of things that point to Jesus
06:2506:25 - Christ in the Old Testament and and like I said not not just him but actually what going to do for us too it’s all
06:3106:31 - foreshadowed it’s all there um so we we really kind of do wish we knew exactly what Jesus had said you know because
06:3806:38 - those are certain to be you know convincing and correct you know evidence of him but we don’t we just know that he
06:4606:46 - did explain it to them but this is actually Fenty noteworthy all on its own because it means if the Bible says that
06:5306:53 - Jesus explained to them all you know the things concerning himself in all the scriptures
06:5906:59 - it means that there’s a way to explain the things concerning himself from the Old Testament scriptures I hope that
07:0507:05 - makes sense because he did it well obviously we are not him but we can do it too is the point um so that’s Luke
07:1507:15 - chapter 24 vers 27 we also have this verse in uh 1 Peter 1: 10-2 here we I I think we’ve talked about this before uh
07:2507:25 - in recent history here in this series talking about how the prophets who prophecied of the grace that would come
07:3207:32 - to you you know you being the people of the time that this was written uh so Peter’s audience made careful searches
07:3907:39 - and inquiries seeking to know what person or time the spirit of Christ within them was indicating as he
07:4607:46 - predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glory to follow so you know it was revealed to them that they were not
07:5307:53 - serving themselves but you in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preach the gospel
08:0008:00 - um things into which Angels long to look so these prophets prophecied of the grace that would come to you that is the
08:1008:10 - suffering and resurrection of Jesus Christ that he would die to take our sins on his shoulders so that we might
08:1608:16 - be reconciled to God so this another place in the New Testament where it says explicitly the
08:2408:24 - Old Testament prophets were prophesying of these things it’s not like you know suddenly we changed our or something
08:3008:30 - these things have been there since the beginning and in fact the Old Testament prophets they wanted to know and
08:3608:36 - understand and I mean uh maybe we could even have a bit of sympathy with them some of these men no doubt great
08:4208:42 - believers they could feel it that there was something more but it wasn’t something that God had chosen to reveal
08:5008:50 - to them at that point in time that must have been a little bit frustrating we might think right um you know sitting
08:5608:56 - there God open my eyes let me see let me understand but but it wasn’t the right time um but anyway the point is here
09:0409:04 - that these folks also were prophesying things about the grace that would come to us that is Jesus Christ and what he
09:1209:12 - did for us and so these things it’s another point of evidence that we’re not just like asserting willy-nilly that the
09:1909:19 - Old Testament prefigures the Messiah or or speaks of the Messiah and and what he would do for us but the Bible itself is
09:2609:26 - making this claim and so you know it’s not something that we should be skeptical of is what I’m saying is that
09:3309:33 - it it is something that we just need to say well how that’s the right question to ask not not like well does the Bible
09:3909:39 - speak of the Messiah or Jesus in the Old Testament that we just need to take for granted the Bible says it does it
09:4409:44 - obviously does we need to ask well how in what ways can we see Jesus in the Old Testament so of course that’s what we’re
09:5209:52 - going to be turning to here um another interesting passage that Dr Lugo brings up to sort of support this is Hebrews 11
09:5909:59 - 26 um and this is talking about Moses considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of
10:0610:06 - Egypt for he was looking to the reward it it took my brain I confess a while to be like well why is Dr bgo referencing
10:1410:14 - this one here like what is this have to do with you know the the Old Testament speaking of Jesus Christ but when you
10:1910:19 - think about it for Moses to do this he would have had to understand something about what Christ was going to do with
10:2810:28 - with us right so how could he understand the reproach of Christ if he didn’t at least have an inkling of what that meant
10:3610:36 - um and so obviously we wish we knew more here as well like how much did people like Moses and Abraham and David how
10:4310:43 - much did they understand about what was coming um so Abraham you know Isaac being a type of Christ was willing to
10:5010:50 - sacrifice his own son trusting that God would somehow make it all work out Abraham understood something you know
10:5710:57 - but exactly how much did they know it’s a very fascinating question but the point is here in context Moses had an
11:0611:06 - inkling of some of what was to come and he knew that it was worth prioritizing following what God would have him do
11:1411:14 - instead of all the material blessings in this world he was looking to his eternal reward the spiritual reward rather than
11:2211:22 - the material and to do that to have that motivation he had to know that some of what was to come the Messiah delivering
11:3111:31 - his people you know obviously Moses is a type of Christ too not that I think we really get to that here but he is um
11:3811:38 - well he had to have at least some vague understanding of what God was going to do so all of these things point to the
11:4611:46 - fact and it is a fact like I’ve been saying because the Bible says it it’s not an inference it’s not a something
11:5111:51 - that we’re a bit shaky on the Bible says that the Old Testament speaks of Jesus Christ speaks of the Messiah and so uh
12:0112:01 - that’s kind of how we’re going to open this it’s just that we need to be in the mindset that it’s there we just have to
12:0512:05 - figure out how to explain it um so we’re not arguing about whether this is true or whether it exists but we’re just
12:1112:11 - going to be talking about well how does the Old Testament point to Jesus Christ and so there are a number of types you
12:1812:18 - know quote unquote types employed to prefigure the Incarnation death and suffering of the Son of God in our
12:2312:23 - behalf and so the subject of typology proper uh this is actually covered in part four a of this Bible basic series
12:3112:31 - that we’re going through which is christology proper so right now we are talking about theology which is the
12:3712:37 - study of God and so we’ve been talking about such things as God’s nature and his uh and uh the Trinity and how the
12:4412:44 - Trinity is explained in the Bible Well when we talk about the person of Jesus Christ specifically that’s part 4A of
12:5012:50 - this series that is kind of where all of the the types of Christ are covered and so some of the Old Testament things that
12:5712:57 - point to Jesus if we ever get there in this video series we’ll be going over those in part 4A of this series um but
13:0513:05 - for the time being we’re actually going to be going over um two separate categories of the old testament’s
13:1113:11 - portrayal of the suffering of Christ so that is in this series in in this video Lesson right now so we’re going to be
13:1713:17 - talking about blood sacrifice and prophecy and how both of these things are some of that evidence that points us
13:2413:24 - towards the Messiah in the Old Testament so that’s kind of intro here it’s how we need to be thinking about this topic
13:3213:32 - that we’re going over a you have any points you want to interject before we actually get to those uh uh specific
13:3813:38 - examples here I don’t think there’s much to say I think you have really covered the whole
13:4513:45 - ground um yes the the Old Testament does speak of Christ it speaks of him even as a suffering servant it’s actually one of
13:5413:54 - the very first things that the Lord said to the couple in the after they sinned and he was passing
14:0114:01 - judgment on them um he told them that her seed will bruise uh or rather crush the head of the serpent and that the the
14:1214:12 - serpent would bruise his heel that’s something that was ever present from the beginning of human
14:2014:20 - history so um we can take for granted that that is um absolutely part of the story of the Old
14:3014:30 - Testament by the time we get to Moses this was entrenched because sacrifices had been a normal part of human history
14:4014:40 - by at this point I mean Noah carried out something similar we we have that record of it at the end of the flood and we can
14:4914:49 - take for granted he was not the first there was also Abel who took um uh we’ll get to them
14:5914:59 - here you know the evangelium Abel Noah that’s the next slide but the point is very Ono here yeah um because like you
15:0915:09 - said from the very beginning have these things been there um yeah it’s it’s not it’s not
15:1615:16 - new yep and uh I I should just say by way of comment that maybe it seems kind of odd
15:2315:23 - for us to be like arguing this like why are we emphasizing this so much it’s because there are actually people who
15:2915:29 - make the claim that that I don’t know that the Old Testament doesn’t speak about Jesus somehow and actually most
15:3615:36 - specifically uh people who are still Jewish today who reject Jesus as the Messiah I mean some of them would say oh
15:4615:46 - I don’t know Christians Just Like cherry-picked Old Testament scriptures and like they they like made a version
15:5215:52 - of Jesus to like fake fulfill the prophecy you see what I’m saying like they think that it’s kind of like um uh
15:5915:59 - uh sort of as an analogy uh there’s this Book of Enoch mentioned in somewhere I think is is it Jude you know off the top
16:0716:07 - your head aie I can’t remember yeah but no book of it was just Enoch that was me that he he he made a prophecy that was
16:1316:13 - in Jude that’s true okay or I think there’s there’s actually a book you know or or an apocryphal go somewhere
16:2016:20 - mentioned in the Bible that basically someone decided that they were just going to like the Bible mentions this
16:2616:26 - thing we don’t have access to it so someone just wrote one that’s it’s obviously not the inspired scripture
16:3016:30 - they just like tried to make something that would like seem like it was the real thing and so where I’m going with
16:3816:38 - that example is that may be somehow how Jewish people view Jesus Christ like a bunch of people read some Old Testament
16:4616:46 - prophecy and they like came up with a person to organize around who seemed to like fulfill some of it but it’s all
16:5316:53 - fake it’s all made up that’s how they might view Jesus and so there are actually people who don’t think that the
17:0017:00 - Old Testament prefigures Jesus Christ as we know him or or the Messiah you know I’ve always been kind of curious about
17:0717:07 - this so I am not ethnically Jewish I I don’t actually know uh in my close personal life uh folks who are like it
17:1517:15 - hasn’t been uh people in my Social Circles but when we have all of this stuff in the Old Testament that points
17:2117:21 - to the suffering servant what do they make of Jesus Christ I I guess they just must think
17:2717:27 - that he wasn’t the real one right he’s just a pretender um but it’s all over the place you know and and so anyway
17:3517:35 - what I’m trying to say is that the reason why we’re talking about this and emphasizing that no really Jesus Christ
17:4017:40 - as the Messiah was there in the Old Testament not even particularly hided you know you don’t have to try real hard
17:4717:47 - to find prophecy that directly lines up with the suffering of Christ um and you know we’re not going to spend a lot of
17:5317:53 - time on it here in this section because the point is almost self-evident you read some of these passages in the Old
17:5817:58 - Testament can’t escape it um but people don’t buy this they don’t believe this point that
18:0618:06 - somehow I don’t know that that this wasn’t God’s plan from the beginning um and so I we don’t need to concern
18:1218:12 - ourselves over much with the fact that some people reject this um because people reject all sorts of truth but it
18:1718:17 - is just worth emphasizing that Jesus is there from the very first pages of scripture God’s Redemptive plan from
18:2418:24 - human history through the shedding of the blood of his one and only son has always been there um we’ve made the
18:3118:31 - point before that when God kicked off creation you know because God exists outside of SpaceTime he knew that in
18:4018:40 - doing this he was kicking off a chain of events that would send Jesus Christ to die on the cross um he knew that upfront
18:4818:48 - before he did anything and that’s something that we struggle to understand as humans because that’s not how our
18:5318:53 - knowledge works but that is how God works and so because everything is forn and for our ordained when God chose to
19:0019:00 - make creation he was at that very instant choosing to send Jesus to die on the cross for our sins um and so we’ll
19:0819:08 - get to this a little bit more you know a started go in there we’ll cover blood sacrifices perhaps the most obvious
19:1419:14 - typological parallel we’ll cover that next but just that point that it’s been there from the beginning is so crucial
19:2019:20 - for us in in kind of having the faith we ought in the consistency of the Bible you know the uh message message that God
19:2919:29 - has seen fit to give Humanity across all of human history has always been consistent this has always been the plan
19:3619:36 - and it is 100% consistent in a way that other books are not that’s why inspiration is such a big deal for us
19:4419:44 - it’s important stuff is what I’m trying to say yeah I I actually would have pointed
19:5119:51 - out just one more thing that it’s not just that people tend to reject this but also that
19:5919:59 - the Old Testament is part of the scriptures even though we Believers uh of the church
20:0720:07 - age um derive so much from the New Testament there’s plenty in the Old Testament
20:1520:15 - that shows us exactly who God is it’s not something we we get away from so even though the Old Testament is um It’s
20:2620:26 - The Testament that has been done away with the plenty in it that actually shows us or or or would I say
20:3420:34 - illuminates I rather it’s the other way around the New Testament actually illuminates a lot of the stuff in the
20:3920:39 - old so yeah and that stuff in the old is useful for us today as well so it’s not just for people who struggle to believe
20:4820:48 - that um Christ is actually in the Old Testament the whole thing is the word of God for us yep I mean you might compare
20:5620:56 - how certain parts of like Daniel and Ezekiel are in fact quite necessary for us to make sense of Revelation um some
21:0221:02 - of the the eschatology there like the Daniel has stuff that you have to understand it to properly be able to
21:0921:09 - interpret that I mean so that’s one example but also things like creation our understanding of creation and even
21:1621:16 - Satan’s fall um is that Ezekiel 28 trying to remember Ezekiel 28 and isah king of you know Ty as a typological
21:2621:26 - parallel to Satan our understanding of Satan and his fall mostly comes from the Old Testament you know so together like
21:3321:33 - you said it is the word of God and and uh generally speaking as a principle it’s true that we mostly understand the
21:3921:39 - old through the lens of the new that is true as a generalization but there are also plenty of New Testament passages
21:4621:46 - that make no sense without the context of the old you know it is the uh the Bible together all parts of it you know
21:5321:53 - equally inspired word of God we have to interpret it in light of itself um and that that cuts both ways um
22:0022:00 - so not to get too off topic but yes very important point for us um and why it’s important for us to emphasize
22:1022:10 - this so the first of these things that we’re going to be talking about that really prefigures the Messiah and the
22:1722:17 - suffering of Jesus Christ is blood sacrifice so Audi actually started just off the top of his head going through a
22:2322:23 - lot of these uh when we were kind of introducing this idea of the old testament’s betrayal of the Messiah here
22:3022:30 - um but from the very beginning blood sacrifice has been pointing us to the Cross so from the coats of skin that God
22:3822:38 - provided Adam and Eve to indicate the one that will die in their place this is right after the fall in Genesis chapter
22:4422:44 - 3 Genesis 3:21 says the Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them this is often called
22:5122:51 - the Proto evangelium or the first gospel because we see from the very beginning that that covering Adam and Eve requires
23:0023:00 - the shedding of blood um so clothing them in in this way kind of as a metaphor for you know covering their
23:0823:08 - unrighteousness is seen as requiring the shedding of blood of another um and we also see this in Abel sacrifice Superior
23:1823:18 - to Cain’s because it depicts the substitute’s death so we at least not we I have something up on my side somewhere
23:2523:25 - about how it’s not like God just like arbitrarily decided Well you know Abel raised sheep and stuff in the pasture
23:3223:32 - and and Cain was a farmer who grew you know things in the field therefore God just arbitrarily liked Abel better or
23:3923:39 - whatever we are to understand God’s rejection of Cain’s offering uh in large part because Cain was presenting it as
23:4823:48 - his labors his work look at me God I’m so great look at what I gave you whereas Abel was taking the life of an animal
23:5623:56 - and looking towards what that represent Ed um and so we’re making that by inference because the alternative is
24:0324:03 - just that God’s arbitrary in a way that is borderline unjust right we understand that when God does this it’s not for no
24:0924:09 - reason it’s because Abel must have been looking with eyes of faith in fact I I’m making it sound even wishy washer than
24:1524:15 - it is in Hebrews chapter 11 um Hebrews chapter 11 specifically calls out Abel’s Faith right by faith Abel still speaks
24:2424:24 - even though he is dead that’s Hebrews chapter 11 verse4 uh by faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain
24:3124:31 - did what does that mean it means that Abel was looking towards the truth of this his offering of blood represented
24:4024:40 - his understanding that he couldn’t do it on his own another person had to pay for him um and of course Cain did not have
24:4824:48 - that that is why God Favored Abel’s offering and rejected Caines not because God’s arbitrary and just liked Abel
24:5624:56 - better for whatever reason was because was doing things of righteousness um looking towards ultimately the sacrifice
25:0425:04 - of Jesus Christ on the cross now did Abel know exactly that that was what was going to happen no probably not but he
25:1125:11 - understood through faith that God was the one who would provide a sacrifice to redeem him um in the same way that Adam
25:1925:19 - and Eve would have believed in God’s promise through the Proto evangelium in Genesis 3:21 and then comes up again in
25:2625:26 - the noic Covenant here the end of Genesis or sorry Genesis chapter n um when you know during the Covenant that
25:3525:35 - God gives to Noah said that we’re not supposed to eat flesh with its life that is its blood blood representing Life as
25:4325:43 - a metaphor super common across cultures and languages not just Hebrew um you know this blood is the life force think
25:5025:50 - of vampires right not the vampires actually exist but the idea that human beings have their life in their blood is
25:5725:57 - like not new but in the Bible because that’s the only version of things we should care about
26:0326:03 - in the Bible this idea that life is caused by the shedding of blood you know that our our Redemption costs the blood
26:1226:12 - of another this is why we are to respect the blood of animals even because we understand what it means what it
26:2026:20 - represents so of course this was this is important in the Jewish dietary code but this is the Covenant God gives to Noah
26:2726:27 - so-call noic Covenant Genesis 9:4 you shall not eat flesh with its life that is its blood you have to drain the blood
26:3426:34 - first because the blood represents payment for sin um it’s important it’s not for no reason that God gives this to
26:4326:43 - Noah and then of course perhaps most clearly we have the elaborate series of sacrifices commanded by the Mosaic law
26:5226:52 - all of which portray Redemption through another’s blood and so we’re going to just briefly here I’m not going to read
26:5826:58 - this whole passage but uh there’s this this passage in Hebrews chapter 9 talking about how Jesus was a sacrifice
27:0427:04 - once for all in a way that the blood sacrifices under the Mosaic law were not but just look at verse 22 here Romans
27:1227:12 - chapter 9:22 and according to the law one may almost say all things are cleansed with blood and without the
27:2027:20 - shedding of blood there is no forgiveness think about that for a second without the shedding of blood
27:2727:27 - there is no forgiveness this been in the law for centuries at this point it has always been pointing towards Christ’s
27:3527:35 - ultimate sacrifice for us so verse 23 therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the Heavens to
27:4227:42 - be cleansed with these but the Heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than
27:4827:48 - these so verse 25 um and Jesus did not offer himself as the high priest here did year by year with blood that was not
27:5727:57 - his own but he offered his own blood to redeem us um so you know we go through more of
28:0428:04 - the passage here Hebrews chapter 9 verse 22 again without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness all of the blood
28:1028:10 - sacrifice in the Old Testament were just Shadows of Christ sacrifice pointing us to him the coming Messiah who would
28:1728:17 - suffer and die to reconcile us to God the father and so as we can see here God made extensive use of the the teaching
28:2728:27 - Aid if you will of blood sacrifice to make it crystal clear to all the Old Testament Believers
28:3428:34 - that forgiveness of their sins was no light matter it required the shedding of blood that is serious I mean and and we
28:4228:42 - can today properly appreciate that taking the life of an animal you know in this in this uh this understanding that
28:5128:51 - it represents you know that being dying in place to forgive you your sins not even not even your life but just your
29:0029:00 - sin requires the death of something that should just show how serious it is um now um pointing out here taking a step
29:0929:09 - back Christianity sorry rather uh Judaism was not the only language sorry the only religion I’m having a hard time
29:1729:17 - here the only religion that had blood sacrifice so this was common in for example the Greek and Roman state
29:2329:23 - religions as well however christianities and and the Jewish form of this points towards that understanding that it is
29:3229:32 - God who takes away our sins it’s not like the animals have any power themselves right um contrast what these
29:3829:38 - other systems of religion might have thought but it is only because God has providing the substitute just like he
29:4529:45 - did uh when Abraham was going to offer Isaac God is the one who provides the substitute for us um but the shedding of
29:5429:54 - blood just shows how serious sin really is it causes is the death of another being um and only through their blood
30:0330:03 - can we be forgiven our sin just shows how serious it is right and so this is something that only God could do for
30:0930:09 - them and it involved a steep and bloody price that God would somehow have to pay himself on behalf of those who trusted
30:1730:17 - in him God is the one who provides the payment for our Redemption and so in this way you can see that all the way
30:2730:27 - back from the very beginning part of Genesis and AI was making this point when we were talking the last time this
30:3330:33 - idea of blood sacrifice has pointed us right to Jesus Christ and you can’t get you can’t get away from this this is
30:4030:40 - what the Old Testament says this is the system of symbolism in all of this points directly to the sacrifice of
30:4730:47 - Christ upon the cross a you want to elaborate on any of this anymore um any points that I missed you always cover it
30:5530:55 - so completely there is not much to say um it’s enough to know that all the blood sacrifices that were in the Old
31:0531:05 - Testament were pointing to the Cross so it’s not a new thing um even if uh people have issues dealing with the
31:1631:16 - coats of skin understanding them to be the very demonstration of what God had said God did say that the seed of the
31:2431:24 - woman would crush the head of the serpent look at you and that the serpent will
31:3131:31 - bruise his heel everybody who has read that I don’t think I have seen a single um interpretation in all my years of
31:4031:40 - looking at the Bible and reading commentaries where anyone had an issue with that being a pointing to the cross
31:4731:47 - and uh just as as Stephen very eloquently pointed out right
31:5231:52 - now if we investigate every culture that has existed in in this world there has always been blood sacrifice in every one
32:0332:03 - of them or at least some form of appreciation for such things why because it’s innate
32:1332:13 - every every collection of human beings every nation that you have found has had some appreciation of the fact that what
32:2132:21 - we ow to God is a blood death even if they did not really you know follow through on that understanding to come to
32:2832:28 - the knowledge of God himself and his Messiah it’s always been there in fact in the time of the um Israelites when
32:3832:38 - they were marching to Canaan one of the problems with Canaan at the time was the sort of sacrifices they were offering it
32:4732:47 - got to the point of actually murdering their children as sacrifices to their gods these are perversions of that
32:5432:54 - understanding that what we owe God is a blood debt that’s someone has to die in our place for us to regain or to be
33:0133:01 - reconciled to him so we it’s always been there there is no question about it it’s not just that everything in the
33:0933:09 - scriptures have been pointing to what the Messiah would do when he would come but everything in the scripture has been
33:1733:17 - pointing to Christ himself so now I think it’s it’s almost interesting to think about how the the
33:2633:26 - willingness of the sacrifice so to speak um I’m trying to think about how the symbolism plays into this a bit but you
33:3533:35 - know you have these people who would be willing to sacrifice their own family to escape judgment right if if it would
33:4233:42 - work right and it’s unfortunate in the history of the world that some people think like this you know they they will
33:4833:48 - sacrifice maybe not literally on a physical altar but you know in how they behave with their children they’ll do
33:5433:54 - whatever it takes to save their own skin this is not what blood sacrifice pointed to in the Old Testament as in oh well
34:0134:01 - I’m going to go sin so now I have to kill like three Lambs instead of two you see what I’m saying like it was never
34:0934:09 - this idea of well you know it’s just commensurate to the amount of sin I commit so if I sin more I just need to
34:1534:15 - kill more things that is not God’s attitude towards sin um and you know Paul talks about this somewhere else you
34:2334:23 - know that Christ died does not give us a license to sin this idea that our debt has been paid what now shall we sin no
34:3034:30 - more you know let that not be Paul tells us that is not how we are to take this and and in Jewish culture it’s not like
34:3834:38 - you know the laws prescription of the killing of animals to cleanse them from their sin meant that that you could have
34:4534:45 - well I mean it would not Shock me if there were people in the history of the world that did think like this but this
34:5034:50 - is not how we ought to think about it who said well I’m rich and Powerful so I can s more because I can afford to buy
34:5734:57 - more things to pay for my sin right um yeah you know it is a sad sad thing that there are people who probably did act
35:0735:07 - like that under the old Covenant um you said I’m a rich and powerful man I can afford to do what I please because I can
35:1635:16 - pay for it I me I can pay for it right you see that you see how that Twisted that is relative to how this actually
35:2435:24 - works where God is the one providing us the sacrifice what one of us actually provides animals and makes them grow
35:3335:33 - none of us right humans don’t control that God controls that and so what one of us can actually provide the sacrifice
35:4035:40 - for our own sin we do not provide animals you know arrogant as some people might think well I own you know I own
35:4735:47 - the mother animal and the father animal therefore I own the baby animals it’s not yours nothing in this life is ours
35:5235:52 - it’s only given to us put in our hands by God right where at best we are are stewards in fact we are slaves we are
35:5935:59 - Servants of God and anything past that thinking well I get to pay God pay god with what the currency that he gave you
36:0936:09 - the clothes that he gave you the life that he gave you I hope you see where I’m going with this yeah that is the
36:1536:15 - arrogance of this to think that somehow we can pay for this on our own that well I can acquire animals to cover my sin
36:2436:24 - therefore I can sin because you see it’s okay I satisfy God’s justice you know people actually say things like I mean
36:3236:32 - probably not so directly right but they act like this that as long as the scale is balanced I can do what I want I can I
36:3936:39 - can follow that letter of the law because you see I’m following the law you know the law says I have to
36:4536:45 - sacrifice this if I do this and look I made the sacrifice I am good in the eyes of the
36:5136:51 - Lord that’s not how it works you know um so I I think maybe given how I separated we are from the the um it’s
37:0537:05 - the right way to put it like the the visceral nature of killing something with your own hands to pay for your sin
37:1237:12 - I think we’re a little bit separated from that and it’s not necessarily a bad thing it just means that maybe this
37:1737:17 - doesn’t hit as hard for us as going up to an altar putting your hand on the neck of an animal and taking its life to
37:2537:25 - pay for your own sin I think perhaps now I’m not I’m not saying we need to go reinstitute this
37:3237:32 - although you know the Bible does say under the tribulation uh uh you know the ministry towards people of Jewish belief
37:4037:40 - that some of the temple sacrifices will start back up pointing to Jesus Christ but I think maybe if people had to with
37:4837:48 - their own hands take the life of an animal every time they sin they would sin less you think that um again not
37:5637:56 - saying we need to go start this but but understanding exactly what it costs we don’t want to cheapen that uh by being
38:0638:06 - quick to sin and I feel like sometimes we do we don’t we don’t keep in our mind what it cost Jesus to pay for even the
38:1238:12 - smallest of our sins sorry I’m rambling a bit I don’t want to get off topic but you know it’s
38:1738:17 - just blood sacrifice is so essential but we have to understand it properly that God is the one who provides this not us
38:2438:24 - it’s not a matter of us being able to somehow level the scale through actions we take through just
38:3038:30 - acquiring more payment if you will because ultimately everything only comes from the hand of God and failing to
38:3738:37 - appreciate that means we really cheap in Grace and we should not do that um yeah very
38:4938:49 - true other than blood sacrifice the other main thing we’re going to be talking about here in this somewhat s
38:5638:56 - somewhat short section in our study of theology proper is going to be talking about how prophecy helps point us to the
39:0539:05 - Messiah and the sufferings of Jesus Christ so prophecy prefigures the coming Messiah and like we mentioned before um
39:1239:12 - all of the typology kind of gets covered in more depth in part 4A of this series on ichus but for our purposes here we’re
39:1839:18 - just highlighting a couple of the high level areas in which the Old Testament points to Jesus Christ as the Messiah
39:2539:25 - and so we just finished talking about blood sacrifice here and now we’re going to be talking about just a few of the
39:3039:30 - prophecies that point us towards Jesus Christ as the Messiah now of course this list is very far from comprehensive and
39:3839:38 - we’re really not going to go into too much detail here we’re just introducing some of these examples that point us to
39:4539:45 - Jesus Christ that are in the Old Testament so as we’ve been saying uh in this lesson this has been the case from
39:5239:52 - the beginning this has always been God’s plan for redeeming humankind and the New Testament didn’t just like come up with
39:5939:59 - some Grand new idea that hadn’t been there before it is fulfilling these things that have been around from the
40:0740:07 - very earliest days that God communicated with humanity and so here in Genesis 3:15 we have a prophecy so we spoke of
40:1540:15 - the Proto evangelium with blood sacrifice here the the animal skins that represent the shedding of blood for the
40:2140:21 - Forgiveness of sins well in Genesis 3:15 just a few verses earlier in that chapter we have a prophecy it’s says
40:2840:28 - that enity will be put between the serpent uh being Satan you know at least metaphorically here and the woman and
40:3540:35 - between your seed and her seed he shall bruise you on the head and you shall bruise him on the heel so he here we
40:4440:44 - interpret now through the revelation of the New Testament to be Jesus Christ and the Serpent’s Seed you know well uh
40:5340:53 - we’re going to interpret it you know among other things as being Antichrist so it has multiple fulfillments uh in
40:5940:59 - the events of Revelation for example but also Jesus crushed the head of the serpent upon the cross he paid for our
41:0741:07 - sin and overcame death this was that final Victory Satan’s already positionally
41:1441:14 - defeated but this prophecy in Genesis 3:15 this is talking about the Messiah the one who saves his people from their
41:2241:22 - sins it’s what the Messiah is in by conception right he saves God’s people um well Genesis 3:15 clearly referencing
41:3141:31 - the Messiah right this is book chapter 3 the first book of the Bible this is really early on in our understanding of
41:3941:39 - God um and it’s right there um now of course we have the benefit of some hindsight in interpreting this nowadays
41:4741:47 - but this has been there from the very beginning and whatever this meant however the oops however the the early
41:5541:55 - people of Israel interpreted this they would have understand this to be a comforting promise right this is a
42:0142:01 - prophecy that that the seed of the woman will be victorious Over The Serpent and all that he represents in a negative
42:0942:09 - sense so that’s Genesis 3:15 we have a another verse here in Numbers chapter 21 so this is the bronze
42:1842:18 - serpent put up on a staff that when the people were bitten by venomous snakes in the wilderness they would look up at
42:2742:27 - this serpent who was put up again think about the symbolism of the Cross here who was put up here to take away you
42:3742:37 - know the the Venom that would lead to their death right I mean I don’t know how exactly what people think you need
42:4442:44 - to be a metaphor for the cross in Jesus Christ but this is certainly one of them um Numbers chapter 21 Moses made a
42:5342:53 - bronze Serpent and set it on the standard and it came about that if a serpent B any man when he looked the
42:5842:58 - bronze at when he looked to the bronze serpent he lived clearly prefiguring Jesus Christ being put up on the cross
43:0543:05 - to pay for our sins right um now there’s more context to this we’re not going to get into all of that here but this is a
43:1243:12 - clear typological reference to the Messiah taking away the sins of his people um numbers CH
43:2043:20 - 21:9 we have Psalm 22 verse1 another Messianic Psalm and and we hear Jesus say this from the cross my God my God
43:3043:30 - why did you forsake me um far from my Deliverance are the words of my groaning um we understand that this speaks of the
43:3943:39 - suffering of Jesus Christ right when God the father was having Jesus take the punishment for human sins that face the
43:4843:48 - Judgment for human sins Jesus says this on the cross not because you know God uh you know the right way to put this um
43:5743:57 - you know not because the father hated Jesus or wanted to cause him harm or things like this but because when Jesus
44:0544:05 - was paying for human sin he was taking the sins of the world upon his shoulders and and Jesus saying this should be a
44:1144:11 - powerful reminder to us of exactly how much this costs now we will never properly appreciate this as humans we
44:1844:18 - can’t um and and we should do our very best to try but we won’t really understand what it means to take the
44:2644:26 - sort of the the Eternal weight of sin upon Jesus’s shoulders for one sin much less the sins of the entire world we
44:3444:34 - cannot even comprehend that what that cost but this should help give us a sense of of how much it would hurt so to
44:4244:42 - speak what Jesus would feel like on the cross but notice that this is quoting from a Psalm Psalm 22 long before Jesus
44:5144:51 - was born into this world and came to die for our sins um and then I Isaiah chapter 53 as it is mentioned here in
44:5944:59 - this series this is the suffering servant right um Isaiah 53:3 he was despised and forsaken of men a Man of
45:0745:07 - Sorrows and acquainted with grief and like one from whom men hid their face he was despised and we did not esteem
45:1445:14 - him a prophecy of Jesus Christ right he lived this this life of of suffering and then put to death the most unglamorous
45:2345:23 - way possible crucified upon a cross to pay for our sin sins this is the suffering servant who has been prophecy
45:3145:31 - for centuries before Jesus Christ came into the world and so this idea here that we’re going with with all this
45:3845:38 - prophecies is the idea that the Old Testament did not prophecy the the coming Messiah or what he would do for
45:4445:44 - us in suffering for our sins upon the cross it it’s simply false all of these things are there in the Bible and I mean
45:5245:52 - again as as we’ve been going over from the beginning since we started talking about uh the trinity in the Old
45:5845:58 - Testament it’s not exactly as if all of these things would have been completely obvious to them in the same way it is to
46:0446:04 - us now with the benefit of the additional revelation of the New Testament and and hindsight but these
46:1046:10 - things have been there since the very beginning and as I say we could go on these are not the only things that we
46:1846:18 - could use to show how the Old Testament prefigures the coming Messiah but it’s just a collection of examples that
46:2446:24 - should show how the Old Testament points to Jesus Christ and what he did for us long before Jesus ever came into the
46:3146:31 - world um and that’s this all this is alongside blood sacrifice right which we said that symbolism clearly points to
46:3746:37 - Christ but all of these things these prophecies these other types this typological symbolism that points us to
46:4446:44 - Christ all of that was given to us as well all of these things together point us to Jesus Christ as the Messiah who
46:5346:53 - will suffer for our sins and so this is why we say that the Messiah is prefigured in the Old Testament and
46:5946:59 - clearly too like not not just in a maybe we think that you could kind of interpret things this way when Jesus
47:0747:07 - explained things to those people on the road to Emmas he wasn’t just drawing connections that weren’t there he was
47:1447:14 - explaining these things that had been there from the beginning and making it clear what they actually pointed to um
47:2147:21 - and that’s just the way we need to take this these things clearly point to Jesus Christ and when we look with faith we
47:2747:27 - should see that from the beginning God’s plan has not changed here it’s been consistent always pointing us to Jesus
47:3447:34 - Christ and what he did for us on the cross so anything you want to contribute here Audi um about any of these verses
47:4247:42 - or or any others that you can think of uh not not really not not really the these are just a sampling
47:5147:51 - of the scriptures that speak to the um coming of the Lord Jesus and what he would do for our sins suffice to say
48:0148:01 - that the Old Testament is replete with this basically if you spent a whole day reading through Isaiah you’d come away
48:0948:09 - wondering why anyone would would even think that the Messiah was supposed to come and do what just chase the Romans
48:1948:19 - away and take the throne everything that you read will point you to that to the Cross to Jesus coming
48:2748:27 - it’s it’s very hard to read the Old Testament and the New Testament and go away you know thinking that they’re
48:3548:35 - disconnected from each other they feed into each other very well and um one clearly foreshadows the other perfectly
48:4748:47 - so if if we just if all we wanted to do was to come up with examples of this it would make for a full session that’s the
48:5648:56 - fact of it I don’t think there is uh much more to say there is very little that needs to
49:0249:02 - be interpreted in many of these things the words are very straightforward it takes a deliberate hardening of one’s
49:0849:08 - heart to miss these um these references and what they’re talking about and just to emphasize you know
49:1649:16 - that’s why Dr Lil titled the the section of this here well um you know this introduction the portrayal of the
49:2449:24 - suffering of Christ it’s not just the person of the Messiah that’s prophecied it’s also his sufferer um and what you
49:3149:31 - need to emphasize that is that you know like it’s not simply that a messiah would come to save the Jews that is true
49:3949:39 - save God’s people but that he would come to suffer for them that is right there as well um and as I say this is a
49:4949:49 - stumbling Bo has been a stumbling PO for the Jewish people for centuries Millennia now um but that doesn’t mean
49:5649:56 - what we’re saying isn’t right there yeah yeah all right so as I said a bit
50:0850:08 - shorter this week here talking about the old testament’s portrayal of the suffering of Jesus and how the Messiah
50:1650:16 - was prefigured in the Old Testament so Jesus Christ specifically and what he came to do for us by suffering for our
50:2350:23 - sins and our place upon the cross uh we talked just about how from the very beginning the Bible has has given us
50:3050:30 - this understanding of the Messiah who was would come to save us from our sins we mentioned this verse in Luke chapter
50:3750:37 - 24: 27 that talks about you know Jesus explaining to those men on the road to emus everywhere that the scripture spoke
50:4550:45 - of him and uh you know we don’t have that conversation but we’ve just gone through some things that should show us
50:5050:50 - that yay verily the Old Testament really does point to Jesus and him crucified at that and so that that is just what we’ve
50:5750:57 - been talking about here in this lesson and so blood sacrifice is very obvious symbolic pointer that that points us
51:0451:04 - straight to the cross the blood sacrifice are just Shadows of Jesus’s sacrifice upon the cross the symbolism
51:1051:10 - has been clear it has been there from Genesis 3: 21 the prto evangelium it’s been there since the beginning has
51:1851:18 - always been consistent in pointing us to the necessity of shedding blood to pay for sin um and of course Jesus is that
51:2651:26 - final sacrifice like Romans sorry Hebrews chapter nine talks about once for all he died upon the cross to deal
51:3351:33 - with sin and death then we talked about prophecy various verses like genesis chapter 3:1 15 with the uh you know
51:4151:41 - Jesus crushing the head of The Serpent and the serpent striking his heel you know the bronze uh the bronze serpent
51:4951:49 - put up on the staff to take away uh the sins of the people you know the Venom saving them from when they were bitten
51:5551:55 - and all these other things that point to Jesus’s suffering as the Messiah like Isaiah chapter 53 the suffering servant
52:0252:02 - just also serve to point us not only to Jesus Christ as the coming Messiah but also point us directly towards him
52:1152:11 - suffering for our sin both of these things together give us that picture that the Old Testament very much spoke
52:1952:19 - of the Messiah and what he would do for us so that’s been this section here um in the next lessons here we’re going to
52:2552:25 - be focusing on appearances of God in the Old Testament so theophanies and christophanies and what the differences
52:3352:33 - between them are and things like that so that’s where we’re going to turn next
Appearances of Christ in the Old Testament - Introduction
Video
Summary
In this lesson, we primarily examine the concepts of Theophanies (appearances of God) and Christophanies (appearances of Jesus Christ), and argue that due to the Father’s invisibility, inaccessibility, and dignity, it is the second person of Trinity (that is, a pre-incarnate Jesus Christ) that appears before mankind in the Old Testament, not the Father. This means that all Theophanies in the Old Testament are in fact Christophanies.
Timestamps
0:000:00 - Intro and outline
02:2902:29 - Overview
17:1417:14 - Definition of Theophany and Christophany
33:0733:07 - The invisibility of the Father
48:2748:27 - The inaccessibility of the Father apart from Christ
01:19:3101:19:31 - The dignity of the Father
01:53:4401:53:44 - The visibility, accessibility and humility of the Son
02:05:1002:05:10 - Summary and outro
Content
(Derived from https://ichthys.com/1Theo.htm)
Overview
In terms of their presentation of the Trinity, the main difference between the Old and New Testaments is that in the New Testament, Christ is clearly visible and distinct from the Father, while in the Old Testament, the Father and Son are often difficult to distinguish. Despite the discussion immediately above, there is a common misconception – even in many Christian circles – that the fact that the exact details about Christ’s incarnation were shielded in the Old Testament means that the visible person in the Old Testament is primarily God the Father.
This is not entirely accurate, for the Father has always appeared to the world through the person of His Son, Jesus Christ, and this fact was just as true in the Old Testament as it is in the New Testament; only the manner of the Father’s representation of Himself through His Son changed: in the New Testament, an incarnate Jesus Christ becomes visible to the world (only His true glory is shielded), while in the Old Testament, Christ also represents the Father – but not in incarnate form.
Additionally, in the New Testament, when our Lord says “I and the Father are one” (Jn.10:30), or otherwise speaks the Father’s words (Jn.8:28; 14:24), the distinction between the Father and the Son (along with this unity) is perfectly clear and obvious. However, in the Old Testament, when God appears, it is consistently the Son who appears, but as the representative of the Father, speaking the Father’s words, so that the distinction between the two was not, at the time, completely understood or appreciated (Jn.8:26 & 28):
So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.
Definition of Theophany and Christophany
The words “Theophany” and “Christophany” mean, respectively, “an appearance of God” and “an appearance of Christ”, the second part of each being derived from the Greek root phan, “appear” (from which we get the word “phenomenon”). In this section it will be argued that in biblical terms, at any rate, the only category of event we really need to be concerned with here is Christophany, for, in my view, all cases of Theophany in the Old Testament are really Christophanies.
It needs to be made clear right at the outset that by Christophany we are definitely not referring to the literal, physical appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ in His true humanity – ever since His deity assumed true humanity at the incarnation, Christ has not again appeared in temporary, Christophanic form. The position that all Old Testament appearances of God are, in reality, appearances of Christ, also allows for the possibility of other sorts of manifestations of the Father other than an ostensibly corporeal appearance here on earth, such as a dream or vision (Daniel’s vision of the “Ancient of Days” being the prime example: Dan.7:13-14).
The invisibility of the Father
Until we get to heaven, we will not see the Father. We know that the Father is not invisible to the angels, for they “constantly see the face of My Father in heaven” (Matt.18:10). But He is our heavenly Father (Matt.6:9, 26, et passim), and as long as the earthly conflict between His would-be usurper, Satan, and His designated regent, Christ, still rages, in heaven He remains for His majesty’s sake, speaking and working His will through His Servant. Until the final and ultimate victory, and only after the complete purging of the universe will the Father come to the new earth to make His abode with us forever (Rev.21:1-3). Until that time, the Father, though acting and speaking through His representative, His Son Jesus Christ, remains invisible to human eye.
“But”, He said, “you cannot see My face. For a man may not see My face and live.”
Surely, You are a God who hides Himself.
No one has ever seen God. God the only Son – the One who has always been at the Father’s side – He has made Him known.
Not that anyone has seen the Father except He [the Son] who has always been with the Father; He has seen the Father.
He [the Father] who alone possesses immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen, nor can see.
No one has ever seen God.
The inaccessibility of the Father apart from Christ
If mankind were able to see God the Father in all His glory without perishing in the process, it is at least safe to say that the issue of human free-will would be seriously compromised from that point forward. Confronted with the magnitude and majesty of God, not only would it be impossible to deny His existence, but it is also likely that even against their will most men would find themselves obliged to follow Him and His will out of sheer terror (rather than from a truly free choice). Along with the principle of preserving mankind’s free-will, the issue of access to the Father also helps to explain why the Father remains unseen to us in this present life.
Although, as discussed earlier in this study, the Father is omnipresent in His creation, for purposes of visibility to His creatures, he is invariably described in the scriptures as residing in heaven (e.g., Matt.6:9, 26). Obviously, as long as we live in these physical bodies, we cannot go to heaven to “seek God” (Deut.30:12-13; Rom.10:6). The Father, by virtue of the fact that His throne room is in heaven (Rev.4:2; Heb.4:16), is inaccessible to us. This “physical” distance which separates us from the Father is indicative of the spiritual distance between God and mankind. As the person of the Trinity representing the authority and holiness of the Godhead, the righteous Father keeps Himself completely separate from human sin; it is in no small part because of mankind’s sinfulness that face to face fellowship with the Father is impossible. In fact, for sinful human beings to be confronted by God brings immediate realization that we are worthy of death by our very nature (Gen.32:30):
“Woe is me! I am done for! For I am a man of unclean lips and I live among a people of unclean lips. For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.”
Though we cannot go to heaven to plead our case with the Father, Christ Jesus is the one who has come down from heaven on our account (Jn.3:13). Through faith in Him and His death for us, we now have access to the Father in His name. By His blood (that is, His death on the cross on our behalf), Christ has broken down the barrier of hostility between the Father and those who believe in His Son. Jesus Christ has made peace between us, and, as a result, we now have been granted entrance into the throne room of heaven and the presence of the Father. This means that on the basis of the acceptability of Christ’s sacrifice and our acceptance of Him, our prayers and petitions are heard by the Father now, and we ourselves shall enter into the heavenly holy of holies in His good time:
So now that we have been justified by faith, let us take hold of the peace [we have] with God [the Father] through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have also obtained our access into this grace in which we stand.
For through Him [Jesus Christ] we both [Jews and gentiles] have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Being in Him [Jesus Christ] and having confidence through our faith in Him we possess this access [to the Father] and freedom to speak [to Him].
So let us approach with confident free speech to the throne of grace [of the Father] that we might receive [His] mercy and gain [His] favor for timely help.
For Christ died once for us on account of our sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring us to God.
The fact that through faith in the Son we now have full access to the Father (sonship, fellowship, acceptance of prayer, and eternal life with Him), shows that before the Son came and died for us, such access was at least limited. The Father’s splitting of the temple’s veil at the conclusion of our Lord’s sacrifice on our behalf is a dramatic indication that through His death the barrier that had previously separated us from the Father (that is, our sins) has now been removed (Lk.23:45). Now we have access to the Father in prayer, though we still cannot enter into His presence in heaven as long as we remain in these earthly bodies. Before the cross, the Father was even more inaccessible to sinful mankind. It would be surprising, therefore, if the instances of Theophany in the Old Testament are actual appearances of the Father. It is much more likely (based upon this principle of greater access after the cross, less beforehand) that just as the Father made Himself known through His Son in the New Testament (Heb.1:1-2), so also in the Old Testament His appearances were mediated by this same Son, that is to say, by Christophany.
The dignity of the Father
The fact that the angelic rebellion led by Satan precedes the creation of man (Job 38:7; Is.14:12-15; Ezek.28:12-19) explains much about the Father’s modus operandi of working through the One who will ultimately replace Satan as ruler of this world, His Son Jesus Christ (Lk.10:18; Jn.12:31; 16:11; 1Cor.15:24-25; Col.2:15; Rev.11:15). As the Trinity’s figure of authority and majesty, the Father chooses a representative to wage the struggle against Satan, even He who by His sacrifice will redeem sinful mankind and replace our adversary, the Morning Star replacing Lucifer (compare Is.14:12 with Rev.22:16). So it should not be surprising that throughout the Old Testament too, the Son is the One representing the Father, speaking His words whenever He appears (in Christophany), for He is the anointed One, the Messiah, the One sent into the world by the Father (Matt.10:40; 21:37; Lk.9:48; 10:16; Jn.12:44; 13:20). This principle of the Son representing the Father as His agent in the plan of salvation can also be seen from Christ’s…
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Message: Christ is the Word (Jn.1:1-3). This means that He is the embodiment of the message and truth of the Father, and speaks the Father’s words truly and precisely at all times (Deut.18:18; Jn.8:55; 14:10&24). Christ is the Father’s ultimate message (Heb.1:1), the messenger of the Father’s new covenant in His blood (Is.42:6; Jer.31:31ff.; Mal.3:1; Matt.26:28; 1Cor.11:25).
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Mediation: Christ is the Mediator between God the Father and sinful mankind (Gal.3:19-20; 1Tim.2:5), the One who reconciles us to the Father by His blood (Rom.5:10-11; 2Cor.5:18-21; Eph.2:14-16; Col.1:20-22).
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Mission: Christ is the One anointed and sent by the Father to offer Himself as a sacrifice for our sins (Heb.9:11-14). He is thus the ultimate high priest who makes atonement to the Father on our behalf (Heb.5:5-10).
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Monarchy: In recognition of His victory at the cross, the Father has “appointed Him Lord and Christ” (Acts 2:36), that is “the Lord anointed (to rule the world)”. This passage signals not only Christ’s replacement of Satan as ruler of the world, but His acceptance of the regency of the world as the Father’s representative (explaining many Old Testament passages referring to the Father’s impending return being applied to the Son in the New Testament):
a) the Son’s ascension into heaven (Ps.110:1 with Matt.22:44);
b) the Son’s ascension to the throne on earth (Ps.45:6-7 with Heb.1:8-9);
c) the Son’s primacy from creation to eternity (Ps.97:7b with Heb.1:6).
All the above examples of Christ’s role of representing the Father in God’s plan of salvation support the position that all Old Testament Theophany is truly Christophany, the Son appearing, representing, and speaking for the Father before His incarnation.
The visibility, accessibility and humility of the Son
While we cannot initially see the Father, we can see the Son and the Father through the Son (Jn.14:9). While we could not initially approach the Father, through the Son we have gained access to Him (Jn.14:6). And while our sinfulness kept us separated from the perfect holiness of the Father, the work of the Son has rendered us holy and has reconciled us to the Father (Col.1:22). As the visible, accessible member of the Trinity who was willing to humble Himself and associate with us to die for us (Phil.2:5-11), Christ has always been our point of contact with the Godhead, whether in Old Testament Christophany, or after His appearance in true humanity following His incarnation.
Video/audio transcript
00:0200:02 - all right guys this week we are picking back up in our study of Bible basics part one going over theology proper and
00:0900:09 - now we’re going to be talking about appearances of Christ in the Old Testament so in our last lesson we had
00:1500:15 - been covering the symbolism of blood sacrifice and some of the specific prophecy related to the Messiah in the
00:2200:22 - Old Testament and now we’re actually going to be talking about when the pre-incarnate Christ appeared and kind
00:2800:28 - of the language we used to describe that and how that fits into how God has related to humanity even before the
00:3600:36 - Incarnation when Christ took on a full human nature so uh in terms of things we’re going to be going over here uh
00:4300:43 - we’re going to start out just kind of giving an overview of of kind of when we’re talking about appearances of God
00:4800:48 - what does that mean what what words do we use and we’re going to be defining those words theophany and christophany
00:5500:55 - we’re going to be talking about the invisibility of the Father the inaccessibility of the father apart from
01:0101:01 - Christ that’s sort of like in relation to us as in the father’s inaccessible to us as sinful Humanity apart from the
01:0801:08 - blood of Christ and then the Dignity of the father and then finally we’re going to be talking about how you know in
01:1501:15 - contrast to these things the visibility accessibility and the humility of the son and how through him we are now able
01:2301:23 - to enter into the throne room of God with our prayers and once you know once the heavens and the Earth are remade the
01:3001:30 - father will then dwell with us but all of this is is sort of going to be talking about how the father is in the
01:3701:37 - third heaven at present veiled from us but we do have access to him through our Lord Jesus Christ who took on that human
01:4501:45 - nature to become the visible part of the trinity in God’s plan for Humanity and actually um as we’ll see as we go
01:5301:53 - through this lesson’s materials uh the second person in the Trinity the son has always been the visible part of the
02:0002:00 - Trinity so even at the beginning of Genesis when God is walking in the garden with Adam and Eve uh some people
02:0802:08 - might suppose that to be the father but we’re going to make the case that all of the appearances of God in the Old
02:1402:14 - Testament so-called theophanies are in fact christophanies that is they are appearances of the pre-incarnate Jesus
02:2202:22 - Christ and so we’ll go over all this in more detail but these are the things that we’re going to be covering in the
02:2802:28 - lesson this time so just starting with an overview here of where we’re going to be going this
02:3802:38 - week we’re going to be talking a bit here about the presentation of the trinity in the Old Testament and so we
02:4402:44 - spent some time covering all of the passages for the trinity in the New Testament and uh kind of where we get
02:5102:51 - the concept from all of these verses that that basically clearly presuppose the existence of the trinity um and so
03:0003:00 - uh We’ve made the point before that the Bible doesn’t so much argue for it in like an apologetic sense as it just
03:0603:06 - takes it for granted um and we’re going to be kind of examining the Old Testament perspective now uh we’ve
03:1303:13 - already been doing that some but in this specific lesson and uh the things that we’re going to be talking about moving
03:1803:18 - forward we’re going to be talking about kind of how God Appears to humanity in the Old Testament and so in terms of the
03:2603:26 - presentation of the Trinity uh there the difference here between the Old and New Testaments is
03:3203:32 - that in the New Testament Christ is clearly visible and distinct from the father while in the Old Testament the
03:3803:38 - father and the son can sometimes be difficult to distinguish now we’re going to make the argument that they are in
03:4303:43 - fact distinguished and that the the appearance of God in the Old Testament are is actually the second person of the
03:5003:50 - Trinity but nonetheless uh you could see how old testament Believers without the benefit of that additional Revelation
03:5703:57 - wouldn’t necessarily uh catch on to this or it wouldn’t be as obvious in that way and of course the spirit is distinct as
04:0404:04 - well in the New Testament but you know the father and the son are really primarily the forces that we’re going to
04:0904:09 - be talking about here uh because we know that the Spirit uh one of the characteristic defining traits of the
04:1504:15 - holy spirit is the fact that he is unseen he is that force that uh supports you know everything in our walks as
04:2504:25 - Christians so he empowers our gifts he connects us to God the Father um and our lord Jesus you know he he
04:3204:32 - makes us United with God through his indwelling ministry towards us and at any rate Holy Spirit kind of makes sense
04:4004:40 - that we aren’t going to be talking of him as the seen member of the Trinity because that’s kind of one of his
04:4604:46 - defining characteristics is that he is the Unseen member of the Trinity um so at any rate we will be kind of comparing
04:5504:55 - and contrasting um the the roles of the father and the son as we’ve already discussed them so we’ve made that
05:0305:03 - argument that the father is the representation of deity within the Trinity the one with authority and
05:1005:10 - majesty and and basically the the one who sends Jesus Christ as a representative uh to do his will on his
05:1905:19 - behalf and so that makes Jesus Christ the accessible one for us and we talked about how that is defining
05:2605:26 - characteristic of the second member of the Trinity is that he is the one we can see and talk to and the one who became
05:3305:33 - like us so that we might relate to God in this way but all of this is leading into where we’re going to start this
05:4105:41 - time which is talking about that when we hear of God uh being seen by people in the Old Testament or appearing to
05:4905:49 - Believers in the Old Testament there is kind of this misconception uh even in many Christian circles so not just
05:5605:56 - Jewish circles so people who hold to uh Judaism and and you know don’t reject Christ as the Messiah and things like
06:0306:03 - this but even among Christians there seems to be a large number of people that think that the visible person in
06:1106:11 - the Old Testament is actually God the father so when uh Moses is being given the law on Mount Si for example people
06:1806:18 - would think that that is the father doing that or that in the garden with Adam and Eve that that would be the
06:2406:24 - father and so on that that I don’t know that maybe like it was God the father in old Testament but then we say it’s Jesus
06:3106:31 - in the New Testament and that that basically like there’s this switch um now one of the reasons why we can argue
06:3806:38 - against this almost in an intuitive sense is because of what we’ve gone over with the roles of the Trinity well we
06:4506:45 - have no indication that those actually ever shift during this time period of you know human history this time period
06:5306:53 - of creation that basically the father would be doing something and then the son would start doing that and the
06:5906:59 - father stop partway through uh the roles that we have presented to us in the Trinity are sort of seen as being static
07:0707:07 - um and not so much in the sense that um it’s the right way to say this that like that it had to be this way we’ve made
07:1407:14 - this point that uh the the members of the Trinity chose to act as they have in perfect Unity while yet having this
07:2107:21 - division of responsibilities but the point is is that there is no shift between the Old
07:2707:27 - and New Testaments here it’s not like the rules that applied before no longer apply and that’s kind of the intuitive
07:3607:36 - uh just the way in which we would think about this so we kind of get that that feeling that maybe this idea that it was
07:4307:43 - the father before but now it’s the sun after the Incarnation that maybe it could also be
07:4907:49 - the sun before because as we’ve argued already if the son is the representative uh sent towards Humanity he is the
07:5707:57 - visible member of the trinity wouldn’t that role be true even before he takes on a human nature during the
08:0508:05 - Incarnation and so that is exactly what what we’re going to be arguing here is that the father has always appeared to
08:1208:12 - the world through the person of his son Jesus Christ and that was in fact just as true in the Old Testament as it is in
08:2008:20 - the New Testament but the only difference is the manner of the father’s representation of himself through the
08:2608:26 - son so in the New Testament and in Jesus Christ becomes visible to the world except under kosis so that means that
08:3608:36 - his divine nature was veiled he didn’t take advantage of his full Divinity during the time of the Incarnation then
08:4408:44 - he was you know ascended and glorified and now he has his full Divinity and full Humanity it’s not that he ever
08:5008:50 - stopped having his full Divinity but you know that’s that Greek word you know emptying himself um of his power so that
08:5808:58 - he lived a life as a genuine human being you know facing all the same things we did without it being easy mode for him
09:0509:05 - as God but that is the New Testament the Incarnate Jesus Christ who’s taken on a human nature but in the Old Testament
09:1309:13 - it’s really not that different uh Christ also represents the father but not in incarnate bodily form and so we would
09:2209:22 - say that um in both cases Jesus is sent as a messenger and in fact uh the Greek word for Messengers is the one that we
09:3109:31 - use for Angel Angelas um is that that Greek word and in the Old Testament uh as we’ll get to um when we talk about
09:3909:39 - these things we’ll see that there is a the angel of the Lord like the definite article here um and the angel of the
09:4709:47 - Lord we’re going to say is going to be Jesus Christ as distinct from Angels who are also representatives or Messengers
09:5509:55 - sent by God um you know in various times you know appearing to like Dan and other prophets and and and things like this
10:0310:03 - but there is only one the angel of the Lord and that is Jesus Christ and so in his in his role even before the
10:1210:12 - Incarnation when he took on a human nature so when Mary conceived of the Holy Spirit Jesus Took on you know a
10:2110:21 - bodily form you know a human nature at that point but even before that he was appearing as God’s representative or
10:2910:29 - Emissary towards humankind um plenty of times as we’ll see throughout the Old Testament this happens and we’re going
10:3610:36 - to be saying that that’s Jesus Christ not the father um and so that’s the distinction that we’re going to open on
10:4210:42 - here is that well in these places in the Old Testament where we hear mention of God appearing before Moses or Abraham
10:5010:50 - and things like this well which member of the Trinity is it and and how do we know and what arguments do we make to
10:5610:56 - support the conclusions we come to and so um just to finish off this kind of introductory bit uh we’re also going to
11:0511:05 - talk a little bit about uh in the New Testament how we can see this distinction a little bit more clearly
11:1211:12 - and again we’ve kind of already made these points all throughout reading that scripture in the New Testament but when
11:1811:18 - we see something like I and the father are one so that’s John chapter 10 verse3 we mentioned this verse before in
11:2511:25 - talking about the Trinity well you can kind of obviously see that the father and the son are not the same even though
11:3311:33 - they have Unity right because you know I and the father being two distinct things yet saying that they are one they share
11:4311:43 - that Essence I you know three persons one Essence that is the definition of the Trinity but we can also see in the
11:5011:50 - New Testament that Jesus Christ speaks the father’s words and so just um bit earlier in the Book of John because
11:5811:58 - Jesus here says that he does nothing on his own initiative but he speaks these things as the father has taught him and
12:0612:06 - then John 14 ver 24 um the word which you hear is not mine but the fathers who sent me so we can see that there is a
12:1612:16 - distinction between the father and the son yet they have this perfect Unity but by way of contrast in the Old Testament
12:2412:24 - when God Appears you know we don’t see this distinction made we don’t see this uh you know we don’t be because the son
12:3212:32 - had not taken on Humanity in his incarnate form there is no distinction in being made as to the words of God in
12:4112:41 - the same way and so we are arguing here that it is consistently the son who appears in the Old Testament as a
12:4812:48 - representative of the father still speaking the father’s words that part hasn’t changed but it’s just in how it’s
12:5412:54 - mentioned that it doesn’t come off in quite the same way because the distinctions in the Trinity have not yet
13:0113:01 - been drawn for us as humans and um if you remember I believe it was immediate lesson preceding this or maybe two back
13:0813:08 - we talked about the idea of progressive revelation and that the Trinity was not made known to Old Testament Believers in
13:1613:16 - part to help keep them separate from their idolatrous Pagan neighbors so avoiding this idea of pantheons even
13:2413:24 - though that’s not what the Trinity is you know at just keeping them even more separate and distinct as a nation state
13:3113:31 - among their neighbors but also more importantly we argued because you can’t really understand the purpose of the
13:3813:38 - Trinity with respect to God’s plan for human Redemption aside from the Incarnation and so all of this to say I
13:4713:47 - know I rambled a bit here that the way in which we see God interact with us in the Old Testament in the New Testament
13:5513:55 - is different in ways you know we just said here that when Jesus speaks of the father’s words in the New Testament as
14:0114:01 - one standing before us we understand that there’s a distinction between them and this is why the Trinity becomes
14:0714:07 - visible in the New Testament however what we are saying is that even in the Old Testament the son was still sent as
14:1614:16 - the representative of the father and that part didn’t actually change even despite what some people might suppose
14:2214:22 - here so a do you have any just introductory thoughts as we’re drawing this contrast between knew a bit but the
14:3114:31 - consistency of the son as the representative of the father yeah I was just thinking of John 1 verse 18 where
14:3914:39 - it said that no one has seen God yeah we have that somewhere yeah it’s coming yeah so that that particular um passage
14:5114:51 - was in my mind while you were speaking and I was like that’s actually uh a very uh deliberate
15:0015:00 - demonstration in the scriptures of this thing we are discussing we can see without doubt that
15:0815:08 - the Bible is explicit that nobody has ever seen the father so not even Adam and Eve in the garden we’re hanging out
15:1615:16 - with the father and none of the prophets ever saw him so every time that anyone saw the Lord was
15:2415:24 - necessarily the second person of the Trinity that they were seeing not the father himself
15:3115:31 - so um that’s uh what I wanted to um add into everything you said because you’ve covered quite a bit of
15:4315:43 - ground right and we in fact have an entire uh we have an entire section on this in this lesson it’s coming um and
15:5015:50 - it’s not just John 1118 there’s actually lots of scriptures that make this point that Audi’s making here that this thing
15:5815:58 - that I guess I’m saying we’re arguing for here um I think about the right way to phrase it I wanted to just kind of
16:0416:04 - put this as a way of contrast that people say things other than this they would be incorrect because the Bible
16:1016:10 - clearly teaches what we’re saying but we’re going to be thinking in terms of evidence here and one of the strongest
16:1616:16 - points of evidence for this is that the Bible makes it real clear as we’ll get to you know in I guess a a section or
16:2316:23 - two that no one has seen the father ever like it’s black and white on this and if that be the case then the Christ the
16:3216:32 - appearances of God in the Old Testament has to be Jesus Christ because if the spirit is the Unseen person of the
16:3816:38 - Trinity by nature and no one sees the father on account of the current sin infesting the world well by process of
16:4616:46 - elimination that only leaves Jesus Christ right in his in his pre-incarnate form and so obviously it’s different
16:5316:53 - before and after the Incarnation but that General sequence of logic to get us here is pretty in escap
16:5916:59 - you can’t have it any other way um yeah yeah all right anything else to say or shall we go ahead and move on to those
17:0817:08 - other points well that’s about it yeah so now we’re GNA be talking about
17:2017:20 - what a theophany is and what a christophy is we’ve been using these words a little bit already but we’re
17:2617:26 - going to kind of get into what they mean kind of from their atmology and and how we use them as theological terms here so
17:3417:34 - the words theophany and christophany mean respectively in appearance of God that’s what theophany means and so the
17:4217:42 - Greek word for God is Theos um and so you can kind of see that show up here in the t h EO it’s the Theo part and then
17:5217:52 - uh christophany meaning an appearance of Christ and so you know we have Yus Christos in Greek is Jesus Christ and so
18:0218:02 - this again you can see it kind of come out in the words here so it’s pretty obvious if you know Greek because the
18:0918:09 - other part of these roots comes from this verb here Fawn which when you you make this into a verb it’s the verb of
18:1618:16 - appearing in Greek um or being you know present or seen and so well you know a theophany is you know a seeing or an
18:2518:25 - appearance of God and a christophy is a seeing or appearance of Christ right and so you know when Christ
18:3118:31 - appears that’s a christophany and when God Appears you know regardless of you know that is broader than Christ because
18:3718:37 - there’s multiple members of the Trinity we would say that’s a theophonic this is that in the
18:4618:46 - interpretation that we are putting forward that that the Bible teaches in my estimation of things every
18:5818:58 - distinction between these and that technically you know per what the words mean and how we ought to think about it
19:0319:03 - they’re not the same because if you want to look at it this way in eternity there you know the father will be present with
19:1019:10 - us and that would not be a christophany because the father is not Jesus Christ you know in in so much as they’re not
19:1719:17 - the same person in the Trinity they all share the essence as we’ve gone over but that would be both but whenever Jesus
19:2419:24 - Christ shows up technically it is a theophany but more precisely it is a christophy which is more specific and so
19:3219:32 - of all that is too confusing just think about it like this whenever we talk about God appearing and talking to
19:3919:39 - someone in the Old Testament or doing something in the Old Testament the person in the Trinity who is doing that
19:4519:45 - who is visible to humanity is the second person of the Trinity the son and so if you hear people talk about these things
19:5419:54 - we would call those appearances christophanies so if you want to be precise when we talk about the
20:0020:00 - appearance of the second person of the trinity in the Old Testament the word you would use for that if you’re
20:0620:06 - speaking sort of the theological jargon is christophy and you’ll mostly only hear
20:1120:11 - the word theophonic does not happen independent from Jesus Christ um so that is sort of
20:2120:21 - how we think about this and so as Dr lug puts it here um it will be argued in biblical terms the only category of
20:2920:29 - event we really need to be concerned with here is christophany for in my view all cases of theophany in the Old
20:3520:35 - Testament are really christophanies that is every time God Appears to people or shows up in the Old
20:4220:42 - Testament in some way we are arguing that that is Jesus Christ sent on behalf of the father as a messenger or
20:4920:49 - representative because he is the visible person of the Trinity and always has been and always will be that is the role
20:5720:57 - of the second member of the Trinity and so uh we should say here that what we’re talking about by christophanies we’re
21:0521:05 - not referring to the literal physical appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ in his Humanity um that is to say when
21:1421:14 - Jesus Christ was showing up in the Old Testament doing these things as the angel of the Lord with a definite
21:2021:20 - article he wasn’t a human being yet he hadn’t yet taken on a human nature that happened during the Incarnation and that
21:2821:28 - happened once it’s not like Jesus continuously took on a human nature or became a human multiple times or
21:3321:33 - anything like that is Jesus Christ as the second person of the Trinity was appearing even before he had a human
21:4021:40 - nature so-called pre-incarnate appearances of Jesus Christ and so again we’re not referring to the literal
21:4821:48 - physical appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ in his Humanity because that didn’t happen in until the
21:5521:55 - Incarnation and Christ has not yet appeared appeared in temporary kristofic form um so uh what we’re getting at here
22:0422:04 - also actually and this is an important Point too is uh you’ll hear Dr lugan Bill talk about how there kind of isn’t
22:1022:10 - any unfulfilled Prophecy in the church age and so a people run around saying that they saw Jesus like now as in 2000
22:2022:20 - something um years after the cross and you know Jesus appeared to me and Jesus did this and Jesus did that or you know
22:2622:26 - maybe more typically Jesus will appear and then there’ll be a Rapture and then somehow he disappears again until the
22:3222:32 - end of Revelation you know that so-called false doctrine of the pre-tribulation Rapture is a more common
22:3822:38 - teaching um that in fact there’s actually going to be one more appearance of Jesus Christ you know what he will
22:4522:45 - become present with us that Greek parsible perusia there um well at any rate not to get off topic here but the
22:5422:54 - christophanies we’re talking about are not referring to you know Jesus Christ in a human nature but the pre-incarnate
23:0023:00 - second member of the Trinity um and so the position here that all Old Testament appearances of God are in reality
23:0823:08 - appearances of Christ does not actually rule out the possibility for uh prophets seeing the father um and so you’ll say
23:1823:18 - well okay Stephen isn’t that a contradiction well not really because it isn’t so much a physical manifestation
23:2423:24 - of the father so the the words Dr Lugano used for this an ostensibly corporeal appearance on earth right if you want to
23:3223:32 - use that phrase um but uh these prophets saw the father through dreams or visions um and uh I don’t know if you remember
23:4223:42 - uh we kind of talked a bit before about you know like being in the presence of the father and if Isaiah or Daniel or
23:4923:49 - one of the other Major Prophets was taken and and saw the throne room of God or even saw things happening in the
23:5723:57 - future and prophecy well were they just given a vision of the future or were they basically like if you view time as
24:0424:04 - a linear stream were they picked up and dumped in a different point in the Stream like were was their existence in
24:1124:11 - time actually shifted did they jump forward in time well we don’t know any of this nor does it really matter for
24:1724:17 - the purposes of you know understanding that they were given to see something that would happen in the future so they
24:2324:23 - could record it for our benefit but in the same way here when these prophets see the father in Visions we’re not
24:3024:30 - violating this principle that we’re we’re setting out here as in it wasn’t an appearance of the father before
24:3624:36 - Humanity in the same way that Jesus Christ in his pre-incarnate form appeared before Humanity because it’s
24:4324:43 - not the father you know somehow on Earth appearing physically before people it is seeing visions of the father or seeing
24:5124:51 - the likeness of the father in this prophetic State and uh that is just a sort of it’s a different thing
24:5824:58 - um and so one of the examples that that is kind of an obvious one to look at here is in jiel Daniel chapter 7 um
25:0725:07 - which is where we see the son of man presented Before the Throne and so this is Daniel chapter 7: 13- 14 says I kept
25:1525:15 - looking in the night visions and behold with the Clouds Of Heaven one like a son of man was coming and he came up to the
25:2125:21 - Ancient of Days and was presented before him and to him was given Dominion glory and a kingdom that all the peoples
25:2925:29 - Nations and Men of every language might serve him his Dominion is an everlasting Dominion which will not pass away and
25:3525:35 - his kingdom is one which will not be destroyed so the presentation of the son of man to the Ancient of Days you know
25:4425:44 - well if Daniel sees you know Jesus Christ who is the son of man coming Before the Throne of God the Father who
25:5225:52 - is the Ancient of Days In this passage then he saw God the father in this Vision um but that isn’t kind of running
25:5925:59 - contrary to what we have been uh kind what we’ve been setting forth here that the appearances of God in the Old
26:0826:08 - Testament are kind of uniformly christophanies because the prophetic appearances of God uh you know like
26:1526:15 - seeing God or the third heaven in Visions it’s just not the same thing really so with that Audi is there is
26:2326:23 - there anything you want to contribute about the difference between theophany and christophy we talk about it and what
26:3026:30 - the words mean and what they don’t mean just so that we’re making sure that we have the uh the meanings nailed down
26:3526:35 - here before we move on so not much really uh just that first of
26:4426:44 - all the a theophany christophany they necessarily mean appearances of of God and Christ uh
26:5426:54 - respectively um prior to uh his Incarnation his Incarnation was [Music]
27:0327:03 - necessarily uh not just an appearing an a a a showing of himself visibly or visually to people but he actually
27:1227:12 - became human and entered the The Human Experience so those that’s a pretty big difference
27:2027:20 - in other words the way he was uh when he was appearing before he um was born by the Virgin
27:3127:31 - Mary um was not the way he was after he was born
27:3827:38 - those are two different things really um and just I I I think it’s it’s already established that every theop was
27:4927:49 - necessarily A christophy so I’m not really sure that there is much of a difference to make except to probably
27:5627:56 - note that uh much of the time the Lord Jesus was appearing on behalf of the Father which is why we talk about the
28:0228:02 - theophany which necessarily means he was um he was he was uh coming to the world to speak for the father to act for the
28:1328:13 - father so that the focus is is on the father rather than on himself you know so I I think it’s useful to have draw
28:2128:21 - the distinction between these two particular terms to note that Jesus Christ is the member of the Trinity
28:2628:26 - coming but you could could use [Music] theophelis opony too You’ never be wrong
28:4428:44 - but you’re you’re kind of contrasting the fact that it’s God himself as opposed to an Angel um which happened
28:5128:51 - plenty in the Old Testament as well and in that case using theop is you know it’s always technically correct but you
28:5728:57 - would use it as opposed to it being just an angel or you know even a prophet sent as a representative of God rather it’s
29:0529:05 - God himself yeah that that actually puts me in mind of when uh God said to Moses uh my angel
29:1629:16 - will go with you and do not provoke him because my name is in him so clearly he was talking about this is not just any
29:2429:24 - Angel this one is like me you know so he’s he’s like like you said even in the Hebrew the word for Angel is literally
29:3529:35 - the word messenger there so he was essentially saying my Messenger will go with you and he has my Essence in him he
29:4429:44 - is like me he he’s he is the same as me so to speak that’s what the whole name and me thing meant so when I think about
29:5529:55 - theany that’s a very solid point to make that um we use it to make a difference
30:0130:01 - between when it’s actually an angel uh that is one of the creatures showing up and when it is the Lord
30:0830:08 - himself uh the the other point that I I thought was uh that that I thought was necessary to make I I think you may have
30:1730:17 - already made it uh was that um when when Jesus was appearing uh he I don’t think that we
30:2630:26 - will have any examples of when he appeared for his own sake but I think the vast majority of his appearances
30:3430:34 - were actually on behalf of the father if not all of them really so the when we speak of these are not words that I that
30:4330:43 - I’m conscious of as being part of the Bible I trust that you would know that better than me uh going by the Greek and
30:5130:51 - the Hebrew um stepen but my thinking is when we use when when we make a difference between theophany and
31:0031:00 - christophany one of the reasons for that would be that the theophany keep keeps the using the term theophany keeps the
31:0831:08 - the focus on the father that this is actually um a showing up in the world on his behalf we use christophany to point
31:1831:18 - out that this appearance of God is actually the appearance of Jesus Christ himself on behalf of the father so
31:2731:27 - that’s um that’s one of the things that I thought would be yeah I mean they they have
31:3531:35 - different overtones different connotations and yeah it’s not like using theophany of Jesus Christ is
31:4031:40 - incorrect in any way it’s just that the thing to argue against and um I we kind of kicked it until like the third set of
31:4931:49 - slides so we’ll get to this next I promise is that it has to be Jesus Christ actually this isn’t optional this
31:5431:54 - isn’t just a oh you know maybe it’s this or maybe it’s that is black and white it positively must be Jesus Christ as the
32:0132:01 - one appearing and so just depending on your audience depending on people I you know you can use any of these words
32:0832:08 - they’re all technically correct they all have different kind of conita overtones too I me again I think like we’ve said
32:1532:15 - it kind of depends what you’re talking about if you want to say it’s God not an angel theophany kind of does that
32:2132:21 - because you’re emphasizing God you know Theos if you want to emphasize it’s Christ not the father you’d use
32:2632:26 - christophany um but yeah yeah so that’s what the words mean and that’s hopefully now it kind of
32:3432:34 - makes sense when we say you know all appearances of God in the Old Testament are
32:3932:39 - christophanies like you don’t wonder what that means anymore that was kind of the goal of this particular section in
32:4632:46 - the lesson um yes so that is the statement we’re making that is kind of the purpose of this particular lesson in
32:5232:52 - the series is that all appearances of God in the Old Testament are christophanies in one sentence form
32:5832:58 - that’s what we’re trying to get at um but this was hopefully helping toine terms so that that makes some sense
33:0933:09 - um all right so we’re finally going to get to this topic we’ve kind of already danced around a little bit here in our
33:1533:15 - discussion and that is the invisibility of the father or the unapproachable of the father his separation from the world
33:2433:24 - and so this is entirely the reason why we know all pre- Incarnation appearances of God
33:3133:31 - still have to be Jesus Christ because if the father is the representation of deity and he’s behind the veil that has
33:3833:38 - stayed consistent all throughout the entire the all all the times in the Bible in fact ever since Satan’s
33:4433:44 - Rebellion God has always been separate from humanity and this is why it’s true to say that no one has seen the father
33:5133:51 - ever as a human being you know until we go to be in his presence in the third heaven but we’re talking about like
33:5633:56 - living human beings no one has ever seen the father and if that is true then the appearances of God in the Old Testament
34:0334:03 - can’t be the father QED um that’s basically how we know for certain that all theophanies had to be christophanies
34:1134:11 - that all appearances of God in the Old Testament had to be the son not the father because the Bible says that no
34:1734:17 - one has seen the father so it really is that simple we don’t want to make it more complicated than that because it’s
34:2234:22 - not so but simply until we go to heaven you know that is the third heaven we will not see the father till we die till
34:3034:30 - we’re on the other side we will never see the father not when we inhabit our current bodies of sin so we know that
34:3734:37 - the father is Not Invisible to the angels for they constantly see the face of my Father in Heaven that’s a quote
34:4334:43 - from Matthew 18:1 so this is Jesus saying don’t despise the the little ones the children
34:4934:49 - for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of my father who is in heaven so angels can go
34:5634:56 - to and fro from the Third Heaven which is positionally a different place from the cosmos um but we human beings do not
35:0535:05 - and so Angels see God Believers in the third heaven see God the father but for us on Earth presently inhabiting this
35:1335:13 - this Cosmos Satan’s World System still Infested by sin after the fall and and more moreover we have sinful bodies and
35:2135:21 - we have the sin nature within us we do not see the father um and so notice even in this passage here that God is our
35:2935:29 - heavenly father and so when we are taught how to pray you know in the in the The Lord’s Prayer here we have our
35:3735:37 - father who is in heaven as in Our Father who is not on earth right um and so pretty clear and then Matthew chapter 6
35:4635:46 - verse 26 so your heavenly father feeds them right you know as contracted with our Earthly fathers but the point is God
35:5435:54 - the Father positionally resides in heaven um and so as long as the Earthly
36:0036:00 - conflict between his wouldbe usurper so Satan who wants to sit on the throne of God and his designated Regent who is
36:0836:08 - Jesus Christ still rages in heaven God remains for his Majesty’s sake speaking and working his
36:1636:16 - will through his servant Jesus Christ so Jesus is sent as a representative of God it’s not like God is sitting aloof from
36:2436:24 - creation that is a point of view that many so-called theists or deists um had throughout history you know some of the
36:3236:32 - founding fathers ascribe to such a belief that you know basically God made creation wound it up like a clock and
36:3836:38 - now he doesn’t do anything he just sort of watches it um well that is not how God operates because He sent Jesus
36:4436:44 - Christ into the world as his representative he is does it’s not like he he stands aloof from creation it
36:5036:50 - doesn’t interact or doesn’t have plans or isn’t working things out perfectly so at any rate in until the final victory
36:5936:59 - until Jesus Christ completely conquers the world makes all of God’s enemies you know uh as a foot stol under his feet um
37:0937:09 - only then and in fact until the universe is completely wiped away and remade only then will the father come to the new
37:1637:16 - Earth to make his Abode with us forever so until that time which positionally isn’t even in the Millennium it’s after
37:2437:24 - human history it’s after the end of time if you want to think about it like that creation of the new Heavens the new
37:2937:29 - Earth uh everything is destroyed and remade yet without sin without pain without tears until then the father
37:3737:37 - though acting and speaking through his representative Jesus Christ will yet remain invisible to humanity um and so
37:4537:45 - this point we’re making and we’re going to read a bunch of passages now that’s the rest of what we’re going to talk
37:4937:49 - about this is not a negotiable point this isn’t something that you get to argue it’s not like some theologians
37:5537:55 - think this some theologians think this or I mean if they do they’re wrong but the Bible says this straight up many
38:0138:01 - places and so we’re going to go read that now so a whole bunch of passages here starting in the Old Testament
38:0838:08 - Exodus 33 verse 20 um but he said he being God you cannot see my face for a man may not see my face and
38:1838:18 - live so straightforward enough we’ve already talked about this I think almost in the very first lesson of this entire
38:2538:25 - Series in theology proper talking about the unapproached light so we talked about how the father
38:3038:30 - is the one in that and in fact we’re going to read that verse I think that’s 1 Timothy chapter 6 um but you cannot
38:3638:36 - see my face and live well obviously Moses did see whoever was there right um but who is being spoken of here it’s the
38:4538:45 - Father the father as the representation of deity um Isaiah chter 45:15 surely you are a God who hides
38:5438:54 - himself you know except we have a appearances of God in the Old Testament so who is being spoken of here it has to
39:0039:00 - be the father uh John 1:8 this is the one that AI mentioned a couple sections back says
39:0839:08 - no one has ever seen God ever you know except people saw you know one member of the trinity in the Old Testament so has
39:1639:16 - to be speaking of a particular member of the Trinity right no one has ever seen God God the only son the one who has
39:2339:23 - always been at the father’s side he has made him known that is the son has made the father known no one has ever seen
39:3139:31 - the father it’s what 1 John 1:18 says uh John chapter 6 verse 46 not that anyone has seen the father except he the son
39:4039:40 - who has always been with the father he has seen the father I mean you can’t say it more
39:4639:46 - clearly than this right that’s John 6:46 then this verse I mentioned the unapproachable light that’s first
39:5139:51 - Timothy 6:16 he the father who alone possesses immortality dwelling in unapproachable
39:5839:58 - light whom no man has ever seen nor can see it’s the same thing and then 1 John chap 4:12 no one has ever seen God so
40:1140:11 - implied the father there and as I say we have seen God we have seen a member of the Trinity visible before us in the Old
40:1940:19 - Testament Humanity has and of course Jesus was visible during the Incarnation so it’s not that no one has seen God but
40:2540:25 - when these verses say no one has ever seen God God you have to put in Brackets there imply the father because as
40:3140:31 - several of these verses like John 1:18 and John 6 verse 46 make real clear that it is specifically the father who no man
40:4040:40 - has ever seen and because of this this is why you can’t say that the appearances of God in the Old Testament
40:4640:46 - were the father because well I mean all these other verses say that no man’s ever seen the father so if it was the
40:5240:52 - father ding ding ding contradiction right and this is why we know the Bible doesn’t contradict itself there is no
40:5940:59 - way that the appearances of God in the Old Testament could be the father they have to be the son for that reason
41:0741:07 - um so I really think it’s that straightforward um I you know the argument is not supposed to be
41:1341:13 - complicated here but nonetheless it’s just important for us to emphasize so a you have any points to add to this I was
41:2141:21 - just thinking how this is such a powerful reputation of everything it people have said about how the Trinity
41:3041:30 - is not is not a Biblical Doctrine I mean how do you reconcile this with everything else we see in the scriptures
41:3941:39 - but it’s absolutely true that’s what we’re talking about how and like you said this is the sort of thing you don’t
41:4641:46 - particularly need to be taught you can read it from the scriptures yourself and they’re fairly straightforward you can
41:5141:51 - actually understand it you know when you read the Bible that in fact God has been seen several times in fact in Exodus it
42:0042:00 - said that the elders um saw God there was a they they saw a pavement under his feet and a
42:1142:11 - throne above it that’s it was describing exactly what they saw and it stated very clearly that they saw God and then we
42:1942:19 - come to John and he declares without mincing words there is no no qualification no one has ever seen God
42:2642:26 - so either you get that to mean that they saw someone who was God but no one has
42:3342:33 - seen a certain other person who is God or you can decide that the Bible is contradictory which simply means you
42:4242:42 - don’t believe what the Bible says you know so but we are believers we take the Bible to be true so if it says these
42:4942:49 - things then these things are true so uh I I was particularly impressed too by the fact that it is the
42:5742:57 - Lord’s Majesty essentially his saying this is beneath me that I should stoop so low as to be engaging with my
43:0743:07 - creature in this war because he wants to overthrow me so to speak so the Lord says somebody will go and speak for me
43:1743:17 - someone who will act so to speak on this person’s level and and that this is yet another way that we should understand
43:2443:24 - the incredible sacrifice of the Lord Jesus for us because to to take Satan on he took
43:3043:30 - Satan on as the servant of the father not in his capacity as God that’s a very big deal that’s a huge deal well think
43:3943:39 - of it as the delegated authority of a general is different than the authority ofing exactly basically the king saying
43:4843:48 - is yeah it’s basically the king saying it’s too little for me to you you come into a man’s home and and his little boy
43:5943:59 - is making all these noises and it’s like no I’m not going to deal with you here’s your your your kid brother he will deal
44:0644:06 - with you that sort of thing because essentially that’s what that’s what the Lord did by sending Jesus as a human
44:1344:13 - being human beings are supposed to be below the angels and they were so that’s a really really big deal and then we see
44:2144:21 - that every time and this is also why a lot of people get confused about the the deity of the Lord Jesus Jesus Christ
44:2744:27 - because throughout the the Old Testament even when he shows up as God you see him speaking in ways that would seem to
44:3644:36 - suggest that he he forgets that he is God for example the the the passage that should by now be very popularly
44:4444:44 - associated with me Zechariah 2 I believe verse 9 where it said um the the the the Lord God says
44:5344:53 - that the Lord God has sent me and it’s like well you the Lord God why are you being sent by the Lord God that sort of
45:0045:00 - thing it’s common enough in the Old Testament to tell us the humility of the Lord Jesus the fact that he just he he
45:0945:09 - took on a role that if if it were any of us would probably say I’m not going to do that that’s beneath me to do that and
45:1745:17 - yet it was in doing so that he rescued us so yeah um the Bible is actually absolutely clear that
45:2745:27 - uh all theophanies that we have in the Bible are necessarily christophanies I mean I just want to
45:3545:35 - Riff on a little bit you we were talking about Jesus being sent as the servants to deal with Satan part of this is that
45:4245:42 - God is going to redeem that position that Satan threw away right Satan’s trying to usurp the Throne of God in the
45:5045:50 - universe but Jesus Christ is going to redeem the throne at the right hand right um
45:5745:57 - Satan was Lucifer lightbringer the person who warded off Evil Jesus Christ is the Morning Star right so but he is
46:0746:07 - the true Morning Star if you want to view it this way and so God is redeeming that which was thrown away without a
46:1446:14 - second thought right and so when we view Jesus Christ God is reclaiming that which was lost with the fall um it’s
46:2246:22 - really powerful stuff because we understand that that Jesus’s identity is entirely his
46:2846:28 - existence is tailor made to refute Satan’s entire platform right that yeah you know Satan’s trying to usurp that
46:3746:37 - position of authority and Jesus Christ willingly basically makes himself sub subservient to the father to demonstrate
46:4446:44 - his glory they’re opposites right but it’s the second one that actually you know truly is the Redemption of that
46:5346:53 - position in creation um yeah so you know like this is why you know and and all of this feeds into itself right and I I
47:0347:03 - also think that it’s important to just to emphasize that it’s not like the father arbitrarily made the decision to
47:0947:09 - be separate from Creation in this way right it has a reason that reason is named sin um God’s glory and majesty and
47:1747:17 - Authority you know as we’ll get to in the other sections is that it these things render him completely separate
47:2647:26 - from that’s the reason it’s not that BS things it does clearly John 646 John
47:3747:37 - chapter 1 ver8 probably the two clearest passages among the list we just read here but if you can’t just take that
47:4447:44 - well logic wise we’ll see real soon how the father is just inherently inaccessible to us like biological
47:5347:53 - necessity like so even if the Bible didn’t say this we’d be arguing the same thing we’ll get to that as we do the
47:5847:58 - next section here but I just want to emphasize again that this is real clear like very very clear and we there are
48:0648:06 - many things that we are dogmatic about as Christians built on far less than this so uh it it shouldn’t be a
48:1348:13 - controversial one for us um yeah all right well with that we’ll turn next to talking about some of those
48:2148:21 - things I just mentioned that just renders the father inherently inaccessible to us
48:3148:31 - all right so now we are going to be picking up talking about the inaccessibility of the father apart from
48:3748:37 - Christ so the last thing we talked about previously was how the father is currently veiled from us he is not
48:4448:44 - visible to us in the world um ever since Satan’s Rebellion when he has tried to usurp the Throne of God um the father
48:5348:53 - has withdrawn from creation separated from this present Cosmos By the Waters above and the father currently resides
49:0249:02 - in the third heaven in terms of heavenly geography and we talked about how uh no one has seen the father um we actually
49:1049:10 - opened this study quite a few lessons back talking about this verse in 1 Timothy chapter 6 discussing how the
49:1749:17 - father lives in or dwells in unapproachable light and so in the idea of light and glory glory is the visible
49:2549:25 - manifestation of of kind of of God’s uh unapproachable light and so the unapproachable of light
49:3449:34 - is a metaphor like if you look at the son uh you kind of can’t see it it’s veiled um and so that’s the idea of the
49:4049:40 - father being separate or invisible from us but now we’re going to kind of turn and shift towards the idea of
49:4749:47 - accessibility in a spiritual sense and if you recall back to when we were talking about the roles in the Trinity
49:5649:56 - uh we made the point rather strongly that what characterizes the second member of the Trinity the son is how he
50:0450:04 - is accessible to us how just as with a kingdom where you have the king and the Crown Prince and the king is maybe up on
50:1350:13 - the throne uh ruling over his subjects with all this Authority maybe it’s hard for people to approach him and to bring
50:2150:21 - their concerns uh before him but the son the crowned Prince he is the mediator between the king with authority and his
50:3050:30 - people and so that is the role of Jesus Christ as you know Heaven’s high priest if you will the mediator between us and
50:3750:37 - the father but the point that we’re going to be talking about here specifically is that the father is
50:4350:43 - inaccessible to us and we mean this not only in the physical way as in he’s not only is he invisible but Also
50:5050:50 - spiritually we have access to the throne room of God through the blood of Jesus Christ um because of our sinfulness and
50:5750:57 - because as we’ve discussed previously the father is the member of the Trinity who holds sort of the representation of
51:0551:05 - deity the one who has the face of of God if you will within the Trinity and so he is the one who holds himself separate
51:1551:15 - from sinfulness right and we talked about that in just the previous thing and so one reason why this is the case
51:2351:23 - um is because if we were to see God in all of his glory and we weren’t to instantly perish due to our sinfulness
51:3151:31 - which presumably we would but like for the sake of argument let’s say that that didn’t happen then human Free Will would
51:3851:38 - be substantially compromised so there’s these verses I think one maybe in gosh Philippians somewhere Philippians 2 I
51:4651:46 - could be wrong um talking about how every knee will bow and every tongue will confess and so at the last judgment
51:5451:54 - before the great white throne where unbelievers um are shown that their works are not sufficient to get them
52:0252:02 - into heaven you know that because they rejected the Son of God they chose hell well at that point all human beings will
52:1152:11 - bow the knee and confess with the tongue that you know God is righteous and just and he has the authority to do all of
52:2052:20 - this not because they want to but because they will not be able to deny it and within this life though one of the
52:2852:28 - reasons why the father remains inaccessible why also Jesus’s Glory was veiled during the Incarnation was
52:3552:35 - because if it was not we wouldn’t actually have the capacity to choose as humans and so ikus makes this points
52:4252:42 - many places uh in many ways that the reason why we are here is to choose uh are we going to submit to God put our
52:5252:52 - faith in Jesus Christ and live for him or are we going to follow the world and this choice is in fact what life is all
52:5952:59 - about this free will that we have to the ability to choose is in reality why we are here why we are all here as human
53:0853:08 - beings and so you can see why God does not force our hands as creatures because if we were forced to choose simply on
53:1753:17 - account of his glory being unveiled before us it wouldn’t actually be a free choice um and so this paragraph mostly
53:2453:24 - what I’ve just been saying here that even against their will people would be obligated to follow him out of Terror
53:3353:33 - because they would understand they would not be able to delude themselves and Harden their hearts and sort of close
53:3953:39 - their eyes and their ears as the metaphors the Bible uses to somehow convince themselves that that you know
53:4653:46 - Divine Justice will not catch up with them or that God doesn’t hold the power of their Eternal lives well if they saw
53:5353:53 - God as he really is they would would obey him not because they wanted to but because they would know that they had to
54:0154:01 - that there wasn’t actually a choice here and so this this irrationality of sin of lashing out against God that is actually
54:1054:10 - true even for us but because God has not fully unveiled himself to us people are allowed to stick their heads in the sand
54:1854:18 - to delude themselves that this is not so in fact most of humanity lives trying to not think of their impending deaths they
54:2754:27 - live as if they will never die um and so one of the studies on ichus part four of the satanic Rebellion series um titled
54:3554:35 - Satan’s World System talks about this uh in great detail that in fact a lot of humanity is trying to forget the fact
54:4454:44 - that they are mortal um and that after they die we will face a perfect and just God okay so a little bit rambly there um
54:5254:52 - but where we are going with this um as it relates to this topic in the study the inaccessibility of the father apart
55:0155:01 - from Christ through the blood of Christ we have access to the father that’s the point we’re talking about here um so uh
55:0855:08 - even in saying you know emphasizing how the father’s inaccessible to us um someone might raise the point of well
55:1455:14 - what about the omnipresence of God that is one of the attributes that we argued was inherent to God’s nature um so God
55:2355:23 - is everywhere in creation he has um the ability to manifest at any point he desires because he’s completely in
55:3255:32 - control of space and time um and so we cannot go to heaven ourselves to seek God and even though the father is around
55:4355:43 - us you know we’ve argued that uh the members of the Trinity all have their roles um positionally speaking the Bible
55:5155:51 - talks about the father being in heaven so by heaven we mean like the third heaven which is different than Eden
55:5955:59 - which is different from Paradise in Hades where Believers were before the Ascension which is also different from
56:0656:06 - the new heavens and the new Earth which is where we’ll dwell in eternity so right now the father is completely
56:1156:11 - separate from the world and so uh some of this is symbolic in the way that the Bible commonly uses of symbolism and
56:2156:21 - typology that the distance if you will between us and the father if you want to think in a physical sense is symbolic of
56:3056:30 - the spiritual distance between us and God and so when we think of this it’s not quite proper for us to get all hung
56:3856:38 - up on the omnipresence bit and be like well if God’s everywhere how can he be in the third heaven and people cry
56:4556:45 - contradiction and things like that that’s not really the point here the point is that the righteous father in
56:5256:52 - the Trinity again the one who manifests the deity of the Trinity keeps himself completely separate from Human sin um
57:0157:01 - and just one last point on this opening slide is just that because sin is largely the issue here this is the cause
57:1057:10 - of the father’s separation when we are given new bodies in the new heavens and the new Earth such that we no longer
57:1757:17 - possess sin Natures then the father will not be separate from us he will come down the New Jerusalem will descend and
57:2357:23 - we will have fellowship with not only the in the spirit but also Father for all of eternity um and
57:3257:32 - so um this particular verse here uh in Isaiah chapter 6 um so Isaiah was one of the major prophets in the Old Testament
57:4157:41 - given to see visions of God um and so Isaiah seeing the Father Here by implication um although sometimes it’s
57:5157:51 - kind of hard in Prophecy to know which member of the Trinity is in view um but by interpretation that’s what we take
57:5857:58 - this as um that Isaiah confesses his unworthiness he says he’s a man of unclean lips and lives among a people of
58:0658:06 - unclean lips and he understands this just inherently by seeing God all right so this is one of the longer sections
58:1558:15 - here so I’m going to keep going a bit um the back to the accessibility idea here of the father uh being sort of separated
58:2558:25 - from us having this powered Gap um in a way such that we don’t have access to him inherently well the person who
58:3358:33 - bridges that is Jesus Christ and so through faith in him and his death for us that is what we would term
58:4058:40 - spiritually speaking the blood of Christ what he did for us on the cross we have access to the father in the name of
58:4858:48 - Jesus Christ so by his blood his death for us on the cross on our behalf Christ has broken down the barrier of hostility
58:5658:56 - between the father and those who believe in him um so this is if you remember back to um some of those theological
59:0559:05 - jargony terms this is what people typically refer to as reconciliation we have been made right with God through
59:1259:12 - the blood of Jesus Christ and so now on account of Christ’s payment we have been granted entrance into the throne room of
59:1959:19 - Heaven and the presence of the father so only on the basis of the acceptability of Christ’s sacrifice and our acceptance
59:2759:27 - of him such that we claim that sacrifice for ourselves that is the coin by which we have access to the father um and so
59:3659:36 - again if the father is the the one who represents the authority within the Trinity then our access to him is GED by
59:4359:43 - our belief in Jesus Christ um so a couple verses here uh oops uh at the beginning of Romans chapter 5 um Romans
59:5459:54 - chap 5 veres 1 through the first part of verse two says this so now that we have been justified by faith let us take hold
01:00:0201:00:02 - of the peace we have with God the Father through our Lord Jesus Christ through whom we have also obtained our access
01:00:0901:00:09 - into this grace in which we stand so you’ll see bolded in all of these verses here um these are translations coming
01:00:1601:00:16 - directly off of IUS you’ll see uh certain words bolded so access access access approach bring um this idea of us
01:00:2601:00:26 - being in the presence of the father is what all of these verses are getting at so I’m going to go through and read the
01:00:3001:00:30 - other ones that was the first couple verses of Romans chapter 5 uh now we’re going to look at Ephesians chapter 2
01:00:3701:00:37 - verse 18 for through him Jesus Christ we both Jews and Gentiles have access to the
01:00:4501:00:45 - father by one spirit it’s Ephesians 2:18 Ephesians 3:12 being in him that is Jesus Christ
01:00:5401:00:54 - and having confidence through our faith in him we possess this access to the father and freedom to speak to
01:01:0101:01:01 - him Hebrews 4:16 so let us approach with confident free speech to the throne of grace of
01:01:0801:01:08 - the father that we might receive his mercy and gain his favor for timely help so we’re able to approach the father
01:01:1601:01:16 - because we have access to him and then finally 1 Peter 3: 18 for Christ died once for us on account of our sins the
01:01:2601:01:26 - righteous for the unrighteous that he might bring us to God you know giving us access to him as we’ve been saying
01:01:3401:01:34 - here and so the fact that through faith we now have access to the father and that the Bible words things in this
01:01:4401:01:44 - manner suggesting that this was something that was gained um after Jesus’s death and resurrection and
01:01:5101:01:51 - Ascension that before that before the Incarnation before Jesus Di died for us and the father accepted his sacrifice on
01:01:5801:01:58 - our behalf access was actually limited um one sort of aside here um is that in Ephesians chapter 4 actually pull this
01:02:0901:02:09 - up I think it’s like Ephesians chapter 4 verses 7 through 11 I want to say let’s see how good my memory is Ephesians
01:02:1901:02:19 - 47-1 um uh we hear about Jesus leading captivity captive and he gave gifts unto
01:02:2701:02:27 - men now the giving gifts unto men is actually talking about uh the Holy Spirit at Pentecost giving people
01:02:3301:02:33 - spiritual gifts um so that happens a little bit later in Acts chapter 2 but the LED captivity captive um when Jesus
01:02:4201:02:42 - descended into Hades um after he had died he didn’t go to I mean let me think about the right way to say this he
01:02:5001:02:50 - didn’t go to hell in the sense of like being in the negative part of the underworld he was in in what is
01:02:5601:02:56 - theologically termed Abraham’s bosom or Paradise within Hades and so we have this Parable in uh Luke chapter 16 I
01:03:0501:03:05 - want to say I don’t know if I’m right there too with Abraham and Lazarus um not Mary and Martha’s brother Lazarus
01:03:1401:03:14 - but the the beggar Lazarus um yeah and so anyway not to get off topic but um the point is is that prior to Christ’s
01:03:2201:03:22 - Ascension um believers who died before the cross were actually separated from the father they didn’t go into the
01:03:2901:03:29 - presence of the father when they died they were in Paradise so it’s not like it’s a negative part of the underworld
01:03:3501:03:35 - but they weren’t actually in the presence of the father because Christ had not yet died for human sin but after
01:03:4201:03:42 - Christ’s Ascension then Ephesians chapter 4 tells us that actually these people were brought into the presence of
01:03:5001:03:50 - the father so he ascended up far above the heavens that he might fulfill all things um so at least that’s how ikus
01:03:5701:03:57 - takes it again I don’t want to get too off topic here but this is why we say that we have gained access it’s
01:04:0301:04:03 - something that we did not previously have and it’s only through the blood of Christ that we have this um so uh the
01:04:1001:04:10 - splitting of the temple veil uh this happened when Jesus was um uh when Jesus was on the cross um after his work had
01:04:2101:04:21 - been fulfilled the veil of the temple was torn into two now if memory serves just a few few verses later here in Luke
01:04:2701:04:27 - chapter 23 um I think we hear about um well I don’t know I a bit later in the chapter I think we hear about uh the
01:04:3701:04:37 - Dead Rising as well there were people in Jerusalem who came out from the grave right these were the miraculous signs
01:04:4401:04:44 - that accompanied the uh Jesus’s death and payment for our sin upon the cross but relevance to what we’re talking
01:04:5201:04:52 - about here um the barrier in the temple that symbolizes our separation from God the Holiness the set apartness of God
01:05:0101:05:01 - was actually torn into it was torn aunder based on the work of what Jesus had done for us and so when we are still
01:05:0901:05:09 - in the flesh like now in our lives here down in Satan’s World System we have access to God the Father through prayer
01:05:1701:05:17 - um so we pray to the father in the name of Jesus Christ Jesus taught us how to pray in the Lord’s Prayer so Our Father
01:05:2401:05:24 - Who Art in Heaven um that again signifying that well if he’s in heaven he’s not quote unquote not on Earth he
01:05:3201:05:32 - is separate from us but our father in Heaven is who we pray to and we pray to him because of what Christ did for us um
01:05:4101:05:41 - and as we were saying before the cross the father was even more inaccessible and so all of this is leading up to this
01:05:4901:05:49 - sentence here I apologize since like I said this is one of the longer sections here that we’ve gone through um all of
01:05:5401:05:54 - this is leading up up to the point that if the father is still inaccessible to us even after the cross we have access
01:06:0201:06:02 - to him through prayer um when we die we now go into the presence of the father in The Third Heaven well all of that’s
01:06:0901:06:09 - true but the father’s still separate from the world he’s still inaccessible to us to a degree and will be until the
01:06:1501:06:15 - new heavens and the new Earth but every indication says that before the cross before the Incarnation he was even less
01:06:2201:06:22 - accessible right only accessed um his grace through the the symbols and the rituals of the law um that veil of
01:06:3001:06:30 - Separation in the temple only the high priest once a year went into the most holy place in the temple um to offer
01:06:3601:06:36 - sacrifices of atonement Hebrews chapter n talks about how when Jesus died for us once for all he didn’t have to keep
01:06:4401:06:44 - going back and keep doing this like the high priest did every year well this is why we say that all of the appearances
01:06:5301:06:53 - in the Old Testament where we hear of God appearing to Moses god appearing to Abraham um uh you know the angel of the
01:07:0201:07:02 - Lord with a definite article leading the people of Israel arguing that the manifestation
01:07:0901:07:09 - the the member of the Trinity that was there was the father kind of runs contrary to everything that we’ve been
01:07:1501:07:15 - talking about and so that’s why we made the argument previously that all of these appearances of God in the Old
01:07:2301:07:23 - Testament are actually what we call christophanies pre-incarnate appearances of Christ the second member of the
01:07:2901:07:29 - Trinity now he didn’t have a human nature until the Incarnation but he was still the visible member of the Trinity
01:07:3701:07:37 - because that is his role within the Trinity we said the father is the one with authority the son is the one who’s
01:07:4301:07:43 - accessible to us and the spirit is the Unseen empowerer I mean there’s more to it but that’s a a sort of offthe cuff
01:07:5001:07:50 - generalization well Jesus Christ has always been the visible member of the Trinity even even in the Old Testament
01:07:5701:07:57 - even before we kind of were able as human beings to clearly distinguish the members of the Trinity when God appeared
01:08:0501:08:05 - before man like walking with Adam and Eve in the garden that was actually Jesus Christ the pre-incarnate son of
01:08:1301:08:13 - God um and so that is kind of the whole point of everything we’ve gone through here because the father remains
01:08:2301:08:23 - inaccessible to us because we have this barrier between us that can only be bridged through the blood of Jesus
01:08:2901:08:29 - Christ and that actually won’t fully be torn down until the new heavens and the new Earth all of this points to the
01:08:3601:08:36 - father’s separation from us his inaccessibility to us and so when we hear of God appearing to people in the
01:08:4201:08:42 - Old Testament the point of everything we went through was if all of this is the case then even though the Old Testament
01:08:5001:08:50 - doesn’t say something like it was the son that appeared to so and so you know it say says God or it says the angel of
01:08:5701:08:57 - the Lord and we talked about how Jesus Christ uh you know angels are messengers in both Greek and Hebrew the word for
01:09:0401:09:04 - for Messenger is well what we would call Angel you know angalo in Greek that’s what it means um well Jesus Christ is
01:09:1101:09:11 - The Messer of God U we talked about Hebrews chapter 1 where um not Hebrews 11 Hebrews chapter 1 where God talks
01:09:2001:09:20 - about speaking through his son Jesus Christ is the glory and exact representation of his being um you know
01:09:2701:09:27 - he is deity of course through kinosis but um all right so I’m sorry this this one got kind of long a do you have
01:09:3401:09:34 - anything you want to go on anything we’ve talked about here from the several slides the verses we’ve gone over
01:09:3901:09:39 - talking about the inaccessibility of the father and what it means for us in terms of identifying the appearances of God as
01:09:4701:09:47 - christophanies I have a question sorry I said I had a question
01:09:5601:09:56 - um what what did you mean by what does it mean by barrier of hostility when reference to the veil
01:10:0201:10:02 - that was torn apart so is that here it was one of the earlier yeah that was that was
01:10:1101:10:11 - a I think it’s the quote in Colossians if memory serves me right I was just wondering is it in the slides or is it a
01:10:1801:10:18 - verse I need to look up no it’s in one of the slides one of your earlier slides uh okay so you said hostility
01:10:2601:10:26 - barrier of hostility was broken okay here Christ has broken down
01:10:3301:10:33 - the barrier of hostility between the father and those who believe in his son um so Hy you want to take that or you
01:10:4001:10:40 - want me to go okay sure um that’s that’s still the issue of the
01:10:4801:10:48 - inaccessibility of the father and there had to be some way that um it would be made obvious it will be demonstrated
01:10:5801:10:58 - that there was really hostility between God and the creation that was now corrupt when we read I think it’s
01:11:0901:11:09 - Psalm is it six I think it may be Psalm 6 it tells us that God cannot dwell with evil so the idea is
01:11:1901:11:19 - that God has a revulsion against sin sin is a essentially offensive to him so there
01:11:3001:11:30 - has to be some way to represent that to us while at the same time God is working our Salvation Among Us so for that
01:11:3801:11:38 - reason there is a separation between God and human beings that’s what that barrier of hostility is the hostility is
01:11:4801:11:48 - simply this that the attitude of God toward a sinful creation is an attitude of judgment but there is also an
01:11:5701:11:57 - attitude of Mercy that’s why we see that there is someone of the godhead who is working within creation to bring about
01:12:0701:12:07 - the Redemption of sinning mankind so um I mean that’s uh in terms of vocabulary it’s actually what being
01:12:1701:12:17 - holy means too means being set apart sometimes you hear this um about the right way to say this so it doesn’t come
01:12:2601:12:26 - off as too offensive but you’ll hear this kind of sometimes preached by people who try to make Christianity an
01:12:3201:12:32 - outside in sort of thing rather than inside out like we whitewash ourselves and they they will talk about well we
01:12:3901:12:39 - have to be separate from the world as Christians right and that is true but actually what makes us separate from the
01:12:4501:12:45 - world is our heart State not strictly our Behavior right although if you truly believe your behavior will change you
01:12:5101:12:51 - can’t do it backwards um but the idea of separation of God is that God has to be separate from sin um and I don’t have
01:13:0101:13:01 - the slides up before me this was one of the fundamental points when we were talking about how God is good versus God
01:13:0901:13:09 - is Holy a do you remember this we were talking about um God’s goodness manifest as love and his hly Holiness manifest as
01:13:1601:13:16 - Justice these are parts of God’s uh his his Essence like what it means to be deity
01:13:2201:13:22 - what it means to be God well we said that God is good um which means God is not evil but God is holy God must be
01:13:3401:13:34 - separate from Evil so that’s different than God is not evil God has to be separate from Evil this is the idea of
01:13:4201:13:42 - Holiness um so um I I should just add that the veiling of God’s nature as well it’s actually merciful like we said you
01:13:5101:13:51 - know it gives people a free will choice but we would be destroyed in the presence of God um so um I I don’t want
01:13:5801:13:58 - us to get bad import bad associations but if you’ve ever seen like pop culture movies you know like someone holds up a
01:14:0501:14:05 - cross and the light comes out for it and smokes the things of evil or whatever that is like overd dramatized nonsense
01:14:1301:14:13 - but that is kind of the idea here the unapproachable Holiness of God’s light cannot dwell in the same place as Sin
01:14:2101:14:21 - the two things do not mix light and darkness do not mix yeah so God’s God’s God’s righteousness
01:14:2901:14:29 - God’s character the thing I wouldn’t say the thing that makes him God but you know the character
01:14:3601:14:36 - of God does not tolerate sin it does not it it just does not tolerate sin the two things cannot be in the same place but
01:14:4601:14:46 - at the same time as we have said we do have the fact that God wants to save The Sinner so their heart the sinner has to
01:14:5601:14:56 - survive in order to be saved if God were in the same space as as The Sinner then the sinner would not be saved the sinner
01:15:0601:15:06 - would per force be subject to judgment so the way that the the Trinity structur things was that the father was going to
01:15:1401:15:14 - be the representation of the godhead the Holiness the separateness the Majesty of the godhead so we could have
01:15:2501:15:25 - God the son which is kind of the point of the last um discussions we had about theophany and christophany a member of
01:15:3401:15:34 - the godhead who is in every way God had to be working within creation to realize Redemption whereas another member of the
01:15:4401:15:44 - godhead had to be working to demonstrate that these things even though God is working to redeem us from it or from
01:15:5301:15:53 - these things are things that God himself abominates so there has to be both the I will not dwell with evil my eyes are too
01:16:0601:16:06 - holy to behold iniquity as well as the I am with you always I will not abandon you I will rescue you I am your savior
01:16:1501:16:15 - all of these things must go together so we we find the Lord Jesus working within creation to realize our salvation and
01:16:2301:16:23 - the Holy Spirit empowering everything that he he was doing toward that and then we see the father himself remote
01:16:3101:16:31 - from mankind such that in fact even believers who died before the cross could not go to heaven they could not
01:16:3801:16:38 - enter the presence of the father they were still separated from the father until Jesus died on the cross and when
01:16:4401:16:44 - Jesus Paid the price for their sin they were finally admitted into the presence of the father but that was why there had
01:16:5101:16:51 - to be a separation in Hades between the believer and the unbeliever but the believer still had to go to haters
01:16:5801:16:58 - because it was not admissible into the third heaven into the presence of the father so the barrier of hostility and
01:17:0601:17:06 - this discussion again of the um the uh what was what was the term the title of this of the slides we’re using right now
01:17:1701:17:17 - the inaccessibility of the father apart from the in exactly that’s that’s the idea of the inaccessibility of the
01:17:2301:17:23 - father apart from chist we have we have no right on our own to approach God if we dare to approach God
01:17:3301:17:33 - in our current state we won’t survive the encounter we would automatically be thrown into the Lake of Fire we would
01:17:3901:17:39 - our flesh would be destroyed instantly so but in fact um What the Lord Has Done is erect a separation Place himself
01:17:5101:17:51 - apart from us while he works out our Salvation to make us admissible into his presence that’s what the barrier of
01:17:5801:17:58 - hostility is about and that’s what um the inaccessibility of the father apart from Christ is really
01:18:0301:18:03 - about yeah I mean and I should add that by Nature we are enemies of God um you know like that is that is sin we are set
01:18:1301:18:13 - opposed to him and his righteousness only through the power of God working in us do we ever come to be adopted as Sons
01:18:2001:18:20 - um and so there’s this verse in you know um Romans 58 is it 8 while we were still sinners Christ died for us um you know
01:18:3201:18:32 - this is why we have such things in the Bible as loving your enemy and praying for your enemy and that sort of thing is
01:18:3901:18:39 - well God G you know God the Father sent Jesus Christ into the world to die for us to redeem us before any of us did
01:18:4701:18:47 - good things to deserve that it’s not like you know we had some humans who decided okay I’m going to follow God and
01:18:5301:18:53 - I’m going to be a good person and then God sent Jesus to redeem us no one is good apart from God um and so he died
01:19:0301:19:03 - for us while we were still unworthy while we were still his enemies um that’s why there’s hostility just it’s
01:19:1001:19:10 - inherent it’s within the nature uh God in his perfect Holiness and Justice cannot abide
01:19:1701:19:17 - unrighteousness um yeah yeah that’s that’s about it I don’t
01:19:2401:19:24 - know does that answer your question Jason yeah thank you it’s good okay all right so next we’re going to be talking
01:19:3601:19:36 - about the Dignity of the father um and so we have talked about uh the father’s invisibility uh behind the veil of
01:19:4501:19:45 - Separation uh the inaccessibility inaccessibility of the father apart from
01:19:5101:19:51 - the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and now we’re going to talk about the Dignity of the father and this is actually a point
01:19:5801:19:58 - that we’ve really danced around I think almost since the beginning of this study um there isn’t like a wrong way to
01:20:0401:20:04 - organize kind of what comes first and what comes next but um this point that Audie and I have made repeatedly about
01:20:1001:20:10 - how the father is the he’s the the face of deity within the Trinity the representation of deity that is the role
01:20:1801:20:18 - he has adopted as the one in Authority that’s really all this is when we talk about the Dignity of the father it’s not
01:20:2401:20:24 - as if Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit don’t have dignity themselves or things like that um we’re talking about the
01:20:3101:20:31 - role the father has adopted as the member of the trinity in the position of authority um and so uh kicking off this
01:20:4201:20:42 - particular discussion um let me see this sentence um so the satanic Rebellion uh now there’s an entire series up on ichus
01:20:5201:20:52 - that covers this the SR series five part series on it this hundreds of pages um well at any rate before this present
01:21:0001:21:00 - creation even came about before humans were created uh God had already created the angels and so the Angelic rebellion
01:21:0801:21:08 - led by Satan precedes the creation of man and in fact as ichus interprets things it precedes the entire account we
01:21:1601:21:16 - have in Genesis verse versus one two and following like like verse two of Genesis chapter 1 and following is an account of
01:21:2301:21:23 - recreation after the gap between verse one and verse two uh during which you know the Angels fell the world was
01:21:3101:21:31 - judged it’s why creation starts out in darkness even though God’s a God of Light well not to get too off topic
01:21:3701:21:37 - there but you know the Angelic rebellion led by Satan precedes the creation of of man and so this actually
01:21:4701:21:47 - explains much of the father’s emmo of working through the one who will ultimately replace Satan as the ruler of
01:21:5501:21:55 - his world Jesus Christ so all sorts of scripture references here to kind of uh illuminate better what we mean by this
01:22:0201:22:02 - and um I I had a hard time reading this sentence why I stumbled a bit at the beginning here but the reason
01:22:0801:22:08 - why so much of what God does in his plan happens is because it is a response to the satanic rebellion and this is a big
01:22:1801:22:18 - deal in how Aus organizes its lessons and in fact I would argue that uh not appreciating this Point gives us a
01:22:2501:22:25 - really impoverished understanding of why we are here as humans um so a pretty normal catechism type answer is like
01:22:3201:22:32 - what is the purpose of the creation of man the purpose of the creation of man is to bring glory to God or something
01:22:3701:22:37 - like that right um the the catechized version of this question is not actually really sufficient why are we here as
01:22:4601:22:46 - humans well yes we’re here to give glory to God but we are also here as a demonstration to Satan and the other
01:22:5201:22:52 - rebelling angels that in fact that they are willing to repent God would redeem them um so human beings are for a time
01:23:0001:23:00 - as the book of Hebrews mentions for a Time lower than the Angels although in our Resurrection bodies we will be
01:23:0601:23:06 - raised up like Jesus Christ was well all of human history is playing out in this in in the in in it hold on let me think
01:23:1601:23:16 - about how to phrase this um human history is playing out with the backdrop of Satan’s rebellion in the background
01:23:2301:23:23 - like that is There It Is invisible to us you know people unbelievers would scoff you know they say we’re just making
01:23:3001:23:30 - things up that well we don’t see this unseen conflict raging around us so you know we can’t measure it with our
01:23:3701:23:37 - scientific instruments therefore it’s not real and people would say that although by definition if it’s in higher
01:23:4201:23:42 - Dimensions than our own we’re not goingon to be able to measure it you know seems kind of common sense but um
01:23:4701:23:47 - all of this to say the father acting in this capacity sent Jesus Christ Christ to redeem
01:23:5501:23:55 - mankind as part of his plan to redeem Humanity after the fall in a response to Satan’s Rebellion okay so I’m not going
01:24:0401:24:04 - to go any more off topic there we could but why I’m bringing that up is that the father sent the son as his
01:24:1101:24:11 - representative we talked about this a little bit earlier in this specific lesson as well that Jesus Christ is
01:24:1701:24:17 - serving as a servant of the father as his Messenger as his representative in the same way that so for example
01:24:2301:24:23 - ambassadors might represent countries Jesus Christ is being sent as the preeminent messenger of the father um
01:24:3101:24:31 - the one who who Bears the father’s Authority um so I think there’s one second the parable of the vineyard owner
01:24:4101:24:41 - um Matthew chapter 21: 33 33 and following
01:24:5001:24:50 - so uh where I was going with this was that when the wicked tenants this is the parable
01:24:5601:24:56 - of the tenants um they beat and killed the Servants of the master who owns the vineyard who sends them to him you know
01:25:0501:25:05 - and this by way of analogy this is what the stiff necked people of Israel did to the prophets the prophets who told them
01:25:1301:25:13 - to turn back to God to repent they beat them they stoned them they put them to death but then the uh owner of the
01:25:2101:25:21 - vineyard sends the air he sends his son saying surely they will listen to me now because they will respect my son because
01:25:2901:25:29 - he carries my authority he is you know he is my representative in a way that the prophets who were Servants of the
01:25:3701:25:37 - most high were not um and so that is what we are trying to get at here in this particular discussion of Jesus
01:25:4401:25:44 - Christ as the representative of the father but why we are talking about that is because the father is the one who’s
01:25:5101:25:51 - doing the sending here um so the father is the one whose authority and Majesty gives him the right to send the son on
01:26:0101:26:01 - his behalf to replace Satan as the Morning Star um through his sacrifice on the Christ through his sacrifice on the
01:26:1001:26:10 - cross he redeemed sinful Mankind and he is replacing you know present progressive and will replace in the
01:26:1701:26:17 - future um Satan as the preeminent uh member of creation sort of the prince of this world if you will um
01:26:2701:26:27 - Jesus Christ is going to completely replace Satan in his duties that he had before his fall as Ezekiel chapter 28
01:26:3401:26:34 - talks about um so in this way when Jesus Christ shows up in the Old Testament he speaks for
01:26:4301:26:43 - God he speaks the words of God um you’ll hear this come up in the Book of John is well anyone who believes my testimony
01:26:5101:26:51 - believes the testimony of the father who sent me right Jesus speaks for the father he has the power to do that um
01:26:5901:26:59 - because he is the anointed one the Messiah the one sent into the World by the father as his representative um and
01:27:0701:27:07 - so this principle is the main thrust of what we’re going over here when we discuss the Dignity of the father in
01:27:1501:27:15 - being the one who sends the son on his behalf um so the son represents the father as his agent in the Plan of
01:27:2301:27:23 - Salvation to redeem humankind from our sin um and so uh this organization this wasn’t me this is coming straight out of
01:27:3101:27:31 - the study here um this uh mission that the son has the son representing the father as his agent in the Plan of
01:27:3901:27:39 - Salvation well we see that that is demonstrated through these things so Dr LS used alliteration here to help us
01:27:4901:27:49 - remember them better so we see this role of the son representing his father and is his agent in the Plan of Salvation
01:27:5501:27:55 - through Christ’s message his mediation his mission and his monarchy so in terms of message Jesus Christ is the word of
01:28:0601:28:06 - God as the beginning part of the Gospel of John tells us he is the embodiment of the message and truth of the father and
01:28:1401:28:14 - speaks the father’s words truly and precisely at all times Jesus Christ is the Father’s ultimate message that verse
01:28:2101:28:21 - from Hebrews chapter 1 that we’ve been talking about is the messenger of the father’s New Covenant in his blood as
01:28:2801:28:28 - opposed to the high priests or the prophets who didn’t have the power to save Jesus Christ died for us once for
01:28:3501:28:35 - all reconciling us to God the father so Jesus Christ as the word of God if you’ve never thought I mean that that
01:28:4301:28:43 - word in Greek logos has many meanings but we think about it is Jesus being the final olive branch of God to sinful man
01:28:5401:28:54 - his message of redemption and deliverance if only we would believe Jesus Christ is God’s message himself he
01:29:0201:29:02 - embodies it he is the message but we also see Christ’s role as the agent representing the father in his mediation
01:29:1101:29:11 - Christ is the mediator between God the father and sinful mankind he is the one who reconciles us to the father by his
01:29:1801:29:18 - blood this is part of his mission this is why the father sent him but this is showing that he is the one acting on
01:29:2601:29:26 - behalf of the father to reconcile us to the father then we also see his role representing the father as the agent of
01:29:3601:29:36 - our Salvation in his mission Christ is the one anointed and sent by the father to offer himself as a sacrifice for our
01:29:4401:29:44 - sins so when Jesus Christ was born into the world during the Incarnation he came with a purpose he was not here uh just
01:29:5301:29:53 - by accident or wandering around not knowing what he was doing he was born into the world took on a human nature to
01:30:0101:30:01 - die for us that was the entire point of the Incarnation you know when Jesus is is uh you know Jesus coming from that
01:30:1001:30:10 - same Hebrew word you know Joshua the Lord saves um Jesus Christ the anointed the Messiah the one who saves his people
01:30:1801:30:18 - is implicit in the titles we have for him the epithets Emanuel God With Us we have this idea of Jesus being born
01:30:2801:30:28 - into the world as the savior of the world from the very beginning even before he becomes an adult and goes and
01:30:3501:30:35 - dies on the cross for us this is why Jesus came into the world um he is the ultimate high priest who makes atonement
01:30:4201:30:42 - to the father on our behalf Jesus came in order to die that was his mission um not die just
01:30:5001:30:50 - physically but take the spiritual death for our sins on his shoulders in our place this was why the second person of
01:30:5901:30:59 - the Trinity took on a human nature and came into the world because he had to be both fully God and fully man to pay for
01:31:0601:31:06 - our sins so finally the last way in which we see the son representing the father as his agent in the Plan of
01:31:1301:31:13 - Salvation is through his monarchy in recognition of Christ’s Victory on the cross the father has appointed him Lord
01:31:2201:31:22 - in Christ he is the Lord anointed to Rule the World um and so this going back to that idea of Jesus Christ replacing
01:31:3001:31:30 - Satan um signals not only Christ’s replacement of sat as ruler of the world but his Regent of the world he has been
01:31:3901:31:39 - delegated authority to rule by the ultimate one who has Authority who has sovereignty over the universe and that’s
01:31:4701:31:47 - God the Father acting as the face of authority within the Trinity um and so this actually explains many of the Old
01:31:5701:31:57 - Testament passages referring to the father’s impending return being actually the son who comes to rule in fact a lot
01:32:0501:32:05 - of this has multiple fulfillment um so there’s this concept in Prophecy that you know the same words in Prophecy can
01:32:1301:32:13 - apply to more than one thing or or you can have typology where a a literal physical human being in one place in
01:32:2101:32:21 - history actually symbolically represents something spiritual that can happen too um well some of this gets tied up it
01:32:2801:32:28 - depends on which passage we’re talking about but Jesus Christ is going to be the one who fulfills you know the God’s
01:32:3601:32:36 - return to rule the world with perfect Justice well some of that happens during the Millennium much less the new heavens
01:32:4201:32:42 - and the new Earth where there’s not even any evil but that unprecedented period of peace and prosperity and stability
01:32:4901:32:49 - that will come about during the Millennium is part of this comes from Jesus Christ
01:32:5501:32:55 - serving as the prince Regent of creation that that delegated authority and power he has representing God the father on
01:33:0401:33:04 - Earth is also part of his mission of representing the father as his agent okay and so we can see that his
01:33:1401:33:14 - acceptance of the rency of the world as the father’s representative um well how do we see all of that um the passage
01:33:2201:33:22 - hold on kind to figure out how all this fits together um so we see his Ascension into heaven is sit at the right hand of
01:33:2901:33:29 - God the Father um so we’re explaining kind of like how this you know Christ has a throne you know even though he’s
01:33:3701:33:37 - acting as a representative of the father he still has this this authority of royalty if you will um so we see that
01:33:4301:33:43 - through his Ascension into heaven um and so there’s this really famous Messianic Psalm that we we come back to repeatedly
01:33:5101:33:51 - Psalm 110 verse1 the Lord says to my Lord sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a foot stol for your feet
01:33:5801:33:58 - um and we see that fulfilled in Matthew chapter 22 here but the son’s Ascension to the throne on
01:34:0401:34:04 - Earth and then also Jesus Christ and his Primacy as the first born of creation um all of these
01:34:1301:34:13 - things show Christ’s role of representing the father in God’s Plan of Salvation and all of that supports the
01:34:2201:34:22 - position to tie it all back that QED where we’re going with all this is that if Jesus Christ is the representative of
01:34:3001:34:30 - the father who acts on his behalf in interfacing with Humanity well then the position that all Old Testament
01:34:3701:34:37 - theophany is truly christophany that is it’s not an appearance of the father or the spirit but the son that we see in
01:34:4401:34:44 - the Old Testament then we argue that all of these appearances of God in the Old Testament are actually the son appearing
01:34:5201:34:52 - representing and speaking for the father before his Incarnation um that is the point in fact the the very reason why
01:35:0101:35:01 - we’ve been talking about the invisib ever since we talked about theophany and christophy the reason why we then talked
01:35:0601:35:06 - about the invisibility of the father and the inaccessibility of the father and now the Dignity of the father um his his
01:35:1301:35:13 - authority as the one who represents um the the Holiness and the perfect authority of God you know the perfect
01:35:2201:35:22 - King of Kings um well that helps explain why we take all of the appearances of God to be the
01:35:3201:35:32 - son because he is the one who is sent on the father’s behalf um so uh AI do you have points you want to bring up here
01:35:4301:35:43 - with respect to things we have said one thing that stuck with me was uh how Jesus is the word um this is a a
01:35:5201:35:52 - discussion we had in one of these uh sessions I I’m suspecting it was probably more than a year ago um when
01:36:0301:36:03 - the Bible says that Jesus is the word or the the logos as as it has it in the Greek it’s saying that Jesus
01:36:1201:36:12 - is God’s plan God’s answer because logos it can mean word just literally word but it tends to connote
01:36:2301:36:23 - argument it’s like when when you say do you have a case uh if you’re a defense attorney or
01:36:3201:36:32 - if you are a Prosecuting the prosecuting attorney or something of that sort when you asked if
01:36:3901:36:39 - you have a case do you have an argument do you have something to pre to present this is what Jesus represents then so
01:36:4701:36:47 - see just to cut off here I’m sorry I don’t want to cut you off but like you can see look at this definition this is
01:36:5301:36:53 - just their’s lexicon there are more modern Greek lexicons but if I just scroll down a bit look at all the
01:36:5901:36:59 - definitions of this one word right and if we were to look in a concordance you can see that it’s word word word right
01:37:0601:37:06 - but also an account you can give a reason you can give a saying so not like word singular but what someone said all
01:37:1401:37:14 - of those you know even commandment or or Reason all of those come from logos so carry on
01:37:2301:37:23 - yeah essentially Jesus is God’s answer to the rebellion in his creation that’s just what we’re what we’re getting at
01:37:3101:37:31 - and in that way he is um the father’s represent representation or representative to the world to the
01:37:4101:37:41 - universe to the creation that he has made so the Angels who stayed true who did not Rebel in Jesus they they they
01:37:5001:37:50 - find um Vindication for their children choice to stand with the Lord rather than to join the rebellion of Satan and
01:37:5801:37:58 - for human beings who were not there when the whole thing began Jesus is is um a demonstration of everything that God is
01:38:0801:38:08 - as an answer to all the lies that Satan has been throwing at at Humanity right from the Garden of Eden so in Jesus
01:38:1601:38:16 - everything that we want to know about God the answer that God has the lies that Satan
01:38:2401:38:24 - has told about him and the the discussion really of what his goal or objective for the universe that he
01:38:3401:38:34 - created is fully represented it’s all in Jesus Christ that is how he is God’s message that is
01:38:4201:38:42 - how he is God’s word that is how he is the logos so we see to um the other thing I
01:38:5001:38:50 - wanted to make a point about was the monarchy thing this is something that um I think some years back when it it it it
01:39:0001:39:00 - made sense to me or I came to appreciate it that way kind of blew my mind because if you did not
01:39:0901:39:09 - really understand that he was God Jesus Is God and as God he is The Sovereign of creation that that’s it he is that’s not
01:39:1901:39:19 - a position he he needs to have bequeathed to him or given to him by just the fact of being deity being
01:39:2701:39:27 - God just as the father is God and the spirit is God he is The Sovereign of creation but as man as a human being he
01:39:3701:39:37 - was exalted to an incredbly high place I don’t think sometimes it it I think I don’t know I it’s hard to imagine just
01:39:4701:39:47 - what Jesus has become as a man what he is is what God is
01:39:5601:39:56 - except as a creature that’s what he is it’s similar to what Satan was when he was the Regent
01:40:0401:40:04 - the the guardian of God’s Throne similar to that and but I think it’s even greater than that because he stands
01:40:1301:40:13 - above everything that God made far above even the angels Satan may have been the ruler of the Angels but he was an angel
01:40:2201:40:22 - what Jesus is is just he’s on a level just by himself completely removed from every other thing and he is high above
01:40:3301:40:33 - it as a man that’s the position that he has been given because of his choice as a human being to be true to the father
01:40:4301:40:43 - but there’s also something else in there when God made the universe the first time he gave it to somebody to
01:40:4901:40:49 - administrate for him um so to speak because I mean even though uh the Bible gives
01:40:5801:40:58 - us to know that Satan was acting in the capacity of God’s Royal Guard his his um special person so to speak his number
01:41:0901:41:09 - two on Earth we can take for granted that that was something that um an authorities that enveloped the entire
01:41:1601:41:16 - universe we could take for granted um Jesus himself has replaced Satan and that position he is now the ruler of
01:41:2701:41:27 - everything that God has made and this is on behalf of the father so again consider the father as a represent
01:41:3701:41:37 - the representative of the trinity in terms of the authority of the Trinity the sovereignty of the Trinity overall
01:41:4601:41:46 - of creation and as as that representation of the Trinity he has appointed somebody
01:41:5401:41:54 - to be his Regent just as um Stephen has said
01:42:0301:42:03 - so that’s exactly the the thing there and and the dignity that that shines through in all of that is is more
01:42:1101:42:11 - like in this fight with Satan God God essentially says it’s beneath me to be engaging with
01:42:1801:42:18 - you you if I engaged with you it would seem as though I we bullying you because you’re too small for me really we we
01:42:2701:42:27 - can’t really have a fair fight you and I so here’s what I’ll do I’ll choose a champion and he’ll match you that’s
01:42:3501:42:35 - what’s going to happen and that champion was the Lord Jesus Christ and it’s it’s essentially the Lord saying yeah you’re
01:42:4201:42:42 - laying claim to this this is the person I’ve chosen to be in that place that you’re claiming you Style Yourself the
01:42:5101:42:51 - God of this world the ruler of the of of the earth and whatnot but this is the man that I’ve chosen to rule the
01:42:5901:42:59 - universe the creation that I made I never chose you and I’m not going to hand things over to you and I’m not
01:43:0601:43:06 - going to abandon them to you he will win it all back for me and that’s exactly why we open this section with oops let
01:43:1501:43:15 - mean to click that with this backdrop of the satanic rebellion and why it’s actually quite important you know you
01:43:2101:43:21 - might say well what does it matter if we understand what happened before Humanity well it matters because when we
01:43:2801:43:28 - understand that Jesus Christ is the answer to this I I think we should emphasize again that Angels at present
01:43:3501:43:35 - compared to us as humans are way way way more smart and powerful than we are like it’s not even close right and the being
01:43:4401:43:44 - that God will replace Satan with is a human being Jesus is a human being now he’s also God right that’s very
01:43:5201:43:52 - important that we don’t mistake that um Hebrews chapter 1 I actually pulled this up um the new Hebrews series that Dr L
01:43:5901:43:59 - has been going through Hebrews chapter one all about how Jesus as the ascended Son of God the glorified Son of God is
01:44:0701:44:07 - superior to Angels well God chose to work through a a human being who Satan would view as weak and yet glorified him
01:44:1601:44:16 - above Satan he’s replacing Satan with a human being think about that for a second um how was I pulled up I kind of
01:44:2301:44:23 - surprised this wasn’t in the the verses I was thinking about this when I think about the son’s monarchy like Jesus
01:44:3001:44:30 - specifically serving as the Regent or the the monarch of human rulership as God has appointed I think of the
01:44:3601:44:36 - epithets that you’ll commonly hear read uh when we are talking about um wow the words escaping me you know
01:44:4401:44:44 - like before Christmas not that we make a big deal out of times and Seasons but uh uh Advent right um that you’ll hear you
01:44:5301:44:53 - know like the prince of peace and uh the the King of Kings and the Lord of lords right you know these epithets that we
01:44:5801:44:58 - apply to Jesus Christ well those actually come up in Revelation chapter 17 Revelation chapter 19 I’m now are
01:45:0401:45:04 - also applied actually to the father um well I guess probably depends on how you’re interpreting all these things
01:45:1101:45:11 - right but Jesus is serving as the Regent of the father and he has that kingly Authority he is the king of kings and
01:45:1901:45:19 - what that represents that turn of phrase in in Greek at least is this idea that you know he’s the the one king to rule
01:45:2601:45:26 - them all um you know think lord of the ring style here um he is the preeminent King the the king that perfectly
01:45:3401:45:34 - fulfills the platonic form of kingship if you want to go down that route um and he’s doing it as a human being right so
01:45:4301:45:43 - you might say well God is our ruler but God is not like us but Jesus is our ruler but Jesus Is Like
01:45:5101:45:51 - Us think about that for a sec right um this is the sovereignty of Jesus serving as the agent of the father is that he is
01:46:0001:46:00 - a human being who has been elevated above every other created thing in the universe on account of what he has done
01:46:0801:46:08 - for us God has glorified and put him at his right hand you know that’s another expression you’ll hear that is the sense
01:46:1501:46:15 - of Jesus’s role um you know what he is taking back from Satan God has glorified him the resur resurrected Christ to sit
01:46:2401:46:24 - at his right hand and Rule alongside the father for all eternity actually also really interesting here um I don’t want
01:46:3101:46:31 - to get us off topic but um Dr luging holds that during the Millennium you know uh we will be resurrected uh the
01:46:3901:46:39 - the Rapture happens at the end of the tribulation um we are caught up with Christ we we gain our Resurrection
01:46:4401:46:44 - bodies and we will rule with him Bible actually says this although a lot of people tend to ignore it and hand wave
01:46:4901:46:49 - it away but uh David if I’m not mistaken a you might remember better than me um he’s going to come back restore the
01:46:5701:46:57 - davidic kingdom as in the physical human being David not Jesus Christ um I think he’s going to serve as kind of a what’s
01:47:0601:47:06 - the right word like I don’t know how how do you pronounce this word like autant you know what I’m talking about like the
01:47:1501:47:15 - administrative assistant to a senior official ad dju an adant
01:47:2401:47:24 - okay whatever Jesus is going to be the king but he is after the type of David as the
01:47:3401:47:34 - ruler of Israel right yeah and that’s thatal 110 you know the Lord said to my Lord um
01:47:4301:47:43 - you Messianic Psalm here go ahead yeah so just like you said in in fact during the tribulation I’m sorry
01:47:5101:47:51 - during the millennium every resurrected believer will have um an oversight some some position of oversight over the
01:48:0201:48:02 - millennial world at that time Nations will have uh Believers resurrected Believers ruling
01:48:0901:48:09 - over them on the spiritual plane just like today we have Satan who has apportioned the nations of
01:48:1601:48:16 - the world under different um um Rebel Angel authorities so we have as as we see in Daniel a Prince of Persia a
01:48:2701:48:27 - prince of Greece and we have Kings of Persia for example so likewise during the Millennium there will be um
01:48:3501:48:35 - believers who will be in charge of different nations of the world David will be the one in charge of Israel
01:48:4101:48:41 - that’s that’s the guarantee um of of the promise that the Lord made to him that’s essentially what
01:48:4901:48:49 - uh yeah stepen is referring to I didn’t want to get it wrong was a bit fuzzy in my head since it’s been a while since
01:48:5401:48:54 - I’ve read that particular section but and I was just using David as an example of well we talk about Christ playing
01:49:0201:49:02 - second fle to the father if you will and well how can he do that he’s God well David to use this idea of delegated
01:49:0901:49:09 - authority and push it further David who is the king of Israel right in terms of all the kings that came after him were
01:49:1601:49:16 - kings in the line of David you know the davidic kingdom is what we call it well David is gonna be assisting Jesus Christ
01:49:2401:49:24 - that’s what we mean about Jesus being king of King and Lord of lords you don’t get more kingly than David and Solomon
01:49:2901:49:29 - in the Bible but Jesus is going to be in charge of them and in that same way Jesus is acting as the representative or
01:49:3701:49:37 - the Regent of the father and that’s the Dignity of the father that we’re talking about here yeah yeah pretty much and I I
01:49:4501:49:45 - do like where what you had had brought up that point that we’ve talked about before about how the father he’s not
01:49:5001:49:50 - even going to get his hand himself so to speak I mean turn of phrase probably isn’t quite on point because you know
01:49:5701:49:57 - God’s God and he’s not like us as created beings but he doesn’t he’s not even going to lift a finger himself to
01:50:0301:50:03 - do he doesn’t need to he doesn’t have to exercise even the smallest amount of his power to defeat Satan instead he is
01:50:1001:50:10 - going to redeem mankind not through an overwhelming display of his his grander and Majesty which he could do you know
01:50:1901:50:19 - he could just snap his fingers and annihilate Satan instantly right in this like overwhelming pyrotechnic display of
01:50:2501:50:25 - superiority but instead God is going to work through a human being someone who is weak who is frail who has all of
01:50:3501:50:35 - these things that that would make this the angels scof and he’s going to elevate Jesus Christ the resurrected
01:50:4201:50:42 - Christ to his right hand and he’s going to be the ruler God is showing that in fact he can do whatever he pleases and
01:50:5001:50:50 - he doesn’t have to annihilate Satan the choices of his other moral creatures through put the lie to Satan’s
01:50:5801:50:58 - entire PR platform through and through um and you know um that is I I should also
01:51:0601:51:06 - say that um one other thing that if you get this Trope of Kings in your head or monarchy and and authority and things
01:51:1401:51:14 - like that is you’ll think about kind of like the beneficence or the magnam of Kings I know those are kind of big words
01:51:2101:51:21 - but you know like the the King’s favor or the king’s good will you know um for his people you’ll hear things like that
01:51:3001:51:30 - God has that more than any other king you know any human kings are just kind of poor copies of the Divine version of
01:51:3701:51:37 - this right you know not to get all platonic about it but you know like basically that sense of the dignity and
01:51:4601:51:46 - and people like they want the king’s blessing and his his like his I don’t know his favor and uh like he’s the one
01:51:5501:51:55 - who you want you know like King’s kissing babies okay you know like when we have that idea
01:52:0201:52:02 - of he’s a big deal right um that that guy’s a big deal you know I do think that some of this symbolism is maybe
01:52:1001:52:10 - lost on us a little bit because you know our particular country you know uh not real big on Kings right um that was kind
01:52:2001:52:20 - of the thing about the American Revolution you know like we’re going to Rebel from the British Monarchy because
01:52:2601:52:26 - we don’t want to pay taxes I part of it but you know like basically that kings are sort of anathema to us in what we
01:52:3401:52:34 - considered our enlightened Western democracy but think about how hard this would hit for you know how about people
01:52:4101:52:41 - who were under the emperor the Caesars in Rome this idea of central individual Authority um it doesn’t hit for us in
01:52:5101:52:51 - the same way it would for them as people under an absolute monarchy um per Imperial monarchy but you know on
01:52:5901:52:59 - presidents are not Kings right um not in the way we’re talking about here we’re talking about people who have a right
01:53:0701:53:07 - you know think like Mandate of Heaven you know what that is from history not that that’s really a thing by the way
01:53:1301:53:13 - but like the actual Mandate of Heaven Jesus has the real mandate to Heaven everyone else was just using it as an
01:53:1901:53:19 - excuse to go steal people’s land but it’s Kings who have that basically the scepter from God
01:53:2801:53:28 - himself that is what we’re talking about in terms of Royal sovereignty Royal dignity is coming from that okay yeah
01:53:3801:53:38 - sorry a little bit rambly but important Concepts all right so we are finally
01:53:4901:53:49 - going to talk now kind of about how uh these characteristics of the son second person of the Trinity sort of contrast
01:53:5801:53:58 - with all of the things that we’ve been talking about with respect to the father for the last minut so we went over how
01:54:0401:54:04 - the father is invisible to us he’s separated by that Veil uh due to the sinfulness of humanity he keeps himself
01:54:1101:54:11 - separate we talked about how he is inaccessible to us um apart from uh us covering ourselves in the blood of
01:54:1801:54:18 - Christ to approach his throne of grace we only have access to him through what Christ has already done for us and then
01:54:2501:54:25 - we talked about how uh the Dignity of the father sent Jesus Christ to act on his behalf as a representative um so he
01:54:3301:54:33 - is uh kind of analogist to a King who has uh you know the prince serve on his behalf or uh you know officers of the
01:54:4101:54:41 - Court do things with his authority well that is sort of how the father sends Christ on his behalf um he sends someone
01:54:4901:54:49 - as an agent to uh he represent and speak for the father um and that’s how the father sends Jesus Christ as his
01:54:5701:54:57 - representative but um by way of contrast to what we just talked about with the father um Jesus Christ actually uh is
01:55:0901:55:09 - visible to us we have access to him and he humbles himself so that we can approach him as another person uh the
01:55:1901:55:19 - visible member of the Trinity who we can take our cares and concerns before um so uh while we cannot initially see the
01:55:2701:55:27 - father uh that is until we die after the Ascension uh he Ephesians chapter 4 mentions that uh Christ LED captivity
01:55:3501:55:35 - captive uh those pre cross believers who were initially in Paradise in Hades are now in the presence of the father in the
01:55:4201:55:42 - third heaven and that’s where we too will go when we die in this present Church age um but while we cannot
01:55:4801:55:48 - initially see the father we can see the son and can see the father through the son and so that principle comes up in
01:55:5501:55:55 - the Gospel of John we have a verse here from John chapter 14 and so this is when they are asking Jesus show us the Father
01:56:0301:56:03 - and Jesus says to them how I have I been so long with you and yet you have not come to know me Phillip he who has seen
01:56:1101:56:11 - me has seen the father how can you say show us the father um so we might also reference and I know I’ve been harping
01:56:1801:56:18 - on this one um but Hebrews chapter 1 brought this up over and over here how Christ is said to be uh the radiance of
01:56:2701:56:27 - God’s glory and the exact representation of his being uh Jesus Christ is not like an illusion he’s not like a I don’t know
01:56:3601:56:36 - like a pale Similac room of the essence of God he is God and that was true during the Incarnation um we had the
01:56:4501:56:45 - hypostatic Union in effect so uh God and man fully God yet fully man um now of course his divinity was veiled during
01:56:5401:56:54 - the Incarnation under that doctrine that we call kenosis but at any rate Jesus says to Philip here um how can you say
01:57:0301:57:03 - show us the father when you see the father through him Jesus acts as the representative of the father more than
01:57:1001:57:10 - just like a token title but he is the radiance of the father’s Glory that’s what Hebrews chapter one tells us here
01:57:1701:57:17 - so we could not initially approach the father we’ve talked about this we didn’t have access to him until Christ won that
01:57:2501:57:25 - for us on the cross but through the son we have gained that access another quote from first John here says I am the way
01:57:3201:57:32 - the truth and the life no one comes to the father but through me um so we usually use this verse in terms of
01:57:3901:57:39 - salvation but even for believers none of us even though we believe in God none of us can access the father except through
01:57:4801:57:48 - Jesus Christ the only reason why we have access even as Believers even once all this has happened is because of what
01:57:5401:57:54 - Christ did um so our sinfulness has kept us separate from the perfect Holiness of the father but the work of the son has
01:58:0301:58:03 - rendered us holy and has reconciled us to him Colossians 1:22 says he has now reconciled you in his fleshly body
01:58:1101:58:11 - through death in order to present you before him holy and blameless and Beyond reproach so our sin was nailed to the
01:58:1801:58:18 - cross with Christ sometimes you’ll hear it phrase like that so Jesus is the visible accessible member of the Trinity
01:58:2501:58:25 - who was willing to Humble himself and associate with us to die for us this passage in Philippians chapter 2 talks
01:58:3301:58:33 - about uh kinosis this is one of the places where we get it from in the Bible talks about Jesus humbling himself so uh
01:58:4101:58:41 - picking up at verse six Hebrews chapter 2 verse 6 says he existed in the form of God but did not regard equality with God
01:58:4901:58:49 - as a thing to be grasped but emptied himself that’s where we get kinosis from but emptied himself taking the form of a
01:58:5601:58:56 - bond servant and being made in the likeness of men being found in appearance as a man he humbled himself
01:59:0101:59:01 - by becoming obedient to the point of death even death on a cross and then we talk about how uh for this reason Jesus
01:59:0801:59:08 - will be highly exalted um that’s part of the uh tius back here watch this this part of the monarchy that we talked
01:59:1601:59:16 - about Jesus Will Rule as Regent on the father’s behalf as king of kings and Lord of lords um and he will be exalted
01:59:2401:59:24 - every knee will bow and every tongue will confess also In this passage from Philippians 2 um well where were we
01:59:3101:59:31 - going with this well this is what Jesus was willing to do for us he humbled himself in order to take on a human
01:59:3801:59:38 - nature to live alongside us and to die as the perfect substitute for our sins here so Christ has always been our point
01:59:4601:59:46 - of contact with the godhead whether in the Old Testament in christophanies or after his appearance in true human ity
01:59:5201:59:52 - following his Incarnation it’s always been Jesus Christ who is the visible member of the Trinity and the one who we
01:59:5801:59:58 - have contact with who gives us that that in if you will to the throne room of God the Father um and we’ve also emphasized
02:00:0602:00:06 - throughout this series that the holy spirit is the Unseen member of the Trinity that’s sort of uh his
02:00:1202:00:12 - characteristic you know of the son is the accessible one the visible one the approachable one the father is the one
02:00:1802:00:18 - in a position of authority the one with dignity like we talked about who sends the son on his behalf the spirit is the
02:00:2402:00:24 - Unseen helper um but it’s always been through the son that we have access to the father and and therefore actually
02:00:3102:00:31 - access to the Trinity as a whole um Jesus is the one through whom we have access to and reconciliation with God
02:00:4002:00:40 - and so this is why we’re kind of contrasting what we talked about the father being in invisible inaccessible
02:00:4702:00:47 - and uh having this Authority this dignity that sort of holds him apart from us uh so that he sends uh Jesus to
02:00:5402:00:54 - work on his behalf well by way of contrast Jesus is visible to us is accessible to us and has humbled himself
02:01:0002:01:00 - to live alongside us and become one of us taking on a human nature um and so you know we’ve talked before about how
02:01:0902:01:09 - the roles in the Trinity it’s not like either member of the Trinity is better or worse than the other in this they
02:01:1502:01:15 - have adopted different roles in the plan to redeem Mankind and so the father’s role is is to be that representation of
02:01:2402:01:24 - deity uh the one who cannot tolerate sin representing that part of God’s Essence that he cannot abide sin he is Holy he’s
02:01:3202:01:32 - set apart from it and Jesus is the one who chose to Humble himself to die on our behalf as a perfect substitute both
02:01:4002:01:40 - members of the Trinity their roles are entirely necessary for the Redemption of mankind but they are not the same role
02:01:4702:01:47 - right and of course we’ve spent a lot of time talking about the Trinity uh showing how that is the case here but
02:01:5302:01:53 - the point in all of this is that even in the Old Testament as we’ve been talking about here the appearances of the sun is
02:02:0002:02:00 - consistent with the son as being visible accessible and humbling himself he is the one who interacts with Humanity
02:02:0702:02:07 - directly not the father and so all those instances that we’ve talked about and will continue to talk about in the next
02:02:1402:02:14 - lesson here in this series of of the reincarnate Jesus Christ appearing to people in the Old Testament Jesus is the
02:02:2202:02:22 - one who does this because it is aligned with these characteristics of the second member of the Trinity as opposed to the
02:02:2802:02:28 - father’s in invisibility inaccessibility and his dignity his separateness from the world so AI do you have points to
02:02:3702:02:37 - add as we kind of tie up uh this this lesson we’ve been going over talking about theophany and christophany and why
02:02:4302:02:43 - we’re making this identification of Christ in the Old Testament uh it I think you you really
02:02:5102:02:51 - kept Ed everything I would say just that um uh the point is to remind us of the glory the Majesty of God and at
02:03:0402:03:04 - the same time his heart for Sinners because if God is Not removed from our sin we don’t see just how desperate our
02:03:1602:03:16 - situation is that is if God does not say you are not worthy of me I will not be in a situation where you can access me
02:03:2702:03:27 - you are my enemies you are people worthy of being thrown into the Lake of Fire we will not see how desperate our situation
02:03:3302:03:33 - is but if he did that alone we would not be saved so he did something else there was still the availability of somebody
02:03:4402:03:44 - who who said as vile as your sin is as terrible as your Rebellion is and we are God
02:03:5302:03:53 - cannot tolerate it at the same time God wants to bring you out of it he wants to
02:04:0202:04:02 - rescue you so he does not abandon you to your situation that’s what we see in this um issue of the son’s accessibility
02:04:1302:04:13 - because he presents the accessibility of God he is that he is that face of of God that says I won’t abandon you to your um
02:04:2802:04:28 - desperation to your frustration to your despair I will rescue you that was
02:04:3502:04:35 - necessary so we we see both things the father representing the Holiness of God I will not tolerate this sort of thing
02:04:4302:04:43 - around me and I will not have people of your caliber in fellowship with me
02:04:5202:04:52 - and Jesus plays the role of I will not leave you to your mess I will clean you up and restore you to
02:05:0102:05:01 - myself that’s essentially um what I would say regarding that in addition to all that
02:05:0802:05:08 - you [Music] said all right so that has been this
02:05:1502:05:15 - lesson going over really the kind of basic differences between theophanes and christophanies what they mean
02:05:2202:05:22 - conceptually and kind of introducing the idea that the appearances of God in the Old Testament were actually appearances
02:05:2902:05:29 - of a pre-incarnate Jesus Christ so this has sort of been the high level view um so we talked about what theophany and
02:05:3602:05:36 - christophany mean sort of in terms of their emology you know appearance of God or appearance of Christ we talked about
02:05:4202:05:42 - the invisibility the inaccessibility and the Dignity of the father um who is separate from us and uh sort of has this
02:05:5102:05:51 - this representation of Holiness in the Trinity that means he cannot tolerate human sin but how Jesus Christ chose to
02:05:5902:05:59 - align himself with us so by way of contrast his visibility accessibility and humility um in taking on human form
02:06:0602:06:06 - as that passage in Philippians chapter 2 talks about um gives us access to the father and so we see the father through
02:06:1402:06:14 - the son the son is sent as a representative of the father and we went over everything that means here you know
02:06:2102:06:21 - with the dignity of the father sting Christ as his representative we talked about his message his mediation his
02:06:2602:06:26 - mission and his monarchy all of these things applying to Jesus Christ as the agent of our Redemption sent on behalf
02:06:3302:06:33 - of the father so this was sort of like the overview or the introduction what we’re going to be touching on in our
02:06:3902:06:39 - next lesson is looking at some of the specific passages where we see uh appearances of God in the Old Testament
02:06:4602:06:46 - and and as we’ve gone over here we’re going to argue that all of those are actually christophanies but we’re going
02:06:5002:06:50 - to go ahead and look at some of those specific passages when we pick up in the next lesson
Appearances of Christ in the Old Testament
Video
Summary
All appearances of the The (definite article) Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament were appearances of a pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, the second member of the Trinity. The Angel of the Lord appeared many times during the Exodus of God’s people from Egypt (and their subsequent journey into the promised land), and also appeared in various other places in the Old Testament as well, before such people as Abraham, Joshua, Gideon, and so on.
Timestamps
0:000:00 - Intro and outline
05:2705:27 - Overview
24:5324:53 - The Angel of the Exodus
32:4032:40 - The burning bush
59:4059:40 - The column of cloud and fire
01:31:2601:31:26 - The angel sent before the Israelites to guard them on the way
01:45:5701:45:57 - The one whom Moses (among others) knew and spoke to “face to face”
02:04:4002:04:40 - The angel who is said to have led the Israelites out of Egypt
02:09:0902:09:09 - The Angel of the Lord elsewhere
02:47:5802:47:58 - Conclusion
03:02:4403:02:44 - Summary and outro
Content
(Derived from https://ichthys.com/1Theo.htm)
Overview
We have been in the process of demonstrating that the appearances of God to believers in the Old Testament (Theophanies), are really pre-incarnate appearances of the Father’s representative, our Lord Jesus Christ, acting for the Father and speaking in His stead. In the majority (though not all) of these cases, the Old Testament identifies such appearances as “the Angel of the Lord”. Sometimes when God appears, however, as in His interrogation of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden (Gen.3:8ff), there is no mention of “angels”. Yet it seems clear from a number of passages discussed below, where the “Angel” is variously described as the Lord and “the Angel of the Lord”, that all such appearances are an essentially similar phenomenon: God appearing to Man in a recognizable form.
The word “angel” is potentially confusing here on account of all the centuries of non-scriptural misinformation we have suffered through. “Angel” is a borrowing of the Greek angelos, meaning “messenger”, and is itself a translation of the Hebrew malach bearing the same meaning. It is important to note that neither word inherently signifies heavenly creatures; both were originally applied to human messengers. Messengers from God would, of necessity, have to be supernatural, and on many occasions these are “angels” in the traditional English sense of the word, that is, that heavenly race of creatures who serve and minister to God (Gabriel, for example: Dan.8:16; 9:21; Lk.1:21-26).
But the Angel of the Lord is an entirely different story, for scripture uses this phrase to designate an “appearance” of God Himself, taking on messenger form to deliver a message personally. As we have seen above, it is best to take these appearances of the Angel (messenger-servant) of the Lord to be appearances of the Messenger and Minister of the Father, Jesus Christ our Lord. For example, when we read of Isaiah’s vision of the Lord (Is.6), it is understandable to assume at first that Isaiah’s vision was of the Father, but John 12:41 tells us that Isaiah was beholding Christ’s glory, and we understand (with our New Testament perspective) that this was a vision of our Lord in His capacity of King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the glorified ruler of the earth who has accepted the mantle of rulership from the Father (as He will return to reign until “He has placed all enemies under His feet” 1Cor.15:25).
The appearance of the Lord to Moses in giving the Mosaic Law presents a case similar to the vision of Isaiah. At first glance, we may assume that Moses is actually viewing the Father (or His likeness: i.e., a Theophany). But the New Testament is quite explicit in stating that the law was given “through angels” (Greek: di’ angelon: Gal.3:19-20; Heb.2:2; Acts 7:38 & 53). Since we know that these “angelic appearances” are represented in the Old Testament as appearances of God (e.g., Ex.34:5ff.), it must be the case that the New Testament passages which ascribe the giving of the Law to “angels” are in fact indicating that the Father spoke the Law to Moses through appearances of the Angel of the Lord, a manifestation of our pre-incarnate Lord, Jesus Christ (i.e., a Christophany).
The Angel of the Exodus
The case of the Angel of the Exodus demonstrates both the divinity of the Angel of the Lord and His identification as a pre-incarnate manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
You’ll see exactly what we mean by “the Angel of the Exodus” as we go through the next bit. The specific focus here is on passages from the first few books of the Bible—from the calling of Moses, to Israel’s flight from Egypt, to their settlement in the promised land. At every step of the way, they were guided by a pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, on behalf of the Father.
The burning bush
The Angel first appears to Moses in the burning bush (Ex.3:2ff.). It is the Angel of the Lord who appeared to Moses in the fiery flames (v.2), but shortly thereafter the Angel represents Himself as God the Father, saying “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob (v.6), and “I shall be who I am” (v.14), and is further identified as “the Lord” (in v.7). The symbolism of the fire and the bush is important: the bush calls attention to Christ, the Messiah, as the Branch (Is.4:2; 11:1; 53:2; Jer.23:5; 33:15; Zech.3:8; 6:12), while the fire represents the fiery judgment of the cross that does not consume Him (cf., for example, the burnt offerings of Lev.1 which represent Christ’s work on the cross). This first appearance of the Angel of the Lord to Moses, then, is a Christophany, an appearance of the pre-incarnate Christ representing and speaking for the Father.
The column of cloud and fire
The Angel is called “of God” at Exodus 14:19 as He appears in the column of cloud and fire. Previously, at Exodus 13:21, Jehovah Himself is said to have been the one going ahead of the Israelites in the column of cloud and fire. Once again, the Lord and the Angel are identified as one and the same, and by appearing from within the fire of the column (which would later stand over the place of the ark in the tabernacle where the blood representing Christ’s sacrifice would be sprinkled on the day of atonement: Num.9:15 with Lev.16), we again have a picture of Christ’s saving work, enduring judgment on our behalf.
Links to further solidify the link between Num.9:15 with Lev.16 (discussed in the video):
- revelation - What is “the Temple of the Tabernacle of Testimony”? - Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange
- Numbers 17 NASB - Aaron’s Staff Buds - Then the LORD - Bible Gateway
- Numbers 17 NIV - The Budding of Aaron’s Staff - The - Bible Gateway
- Hebrews 9:3-4 NIV - Behind the second curtain was a room - Bible Gateway
The angel sent before the Israelites to guard them on the way
At Exodus 23:20-23 as part of the giving of the Law to Moses on Sinai, the Angel of the Lord (identified as such as we saw above from New Testament passages such as Gal.3:19-20; Heb.2:2; Acts 7:38 & 53) proclaims that He is going to “send” the Angel before the Israelites to lead and guard them (as Christ is sent by the Father). Moses is also told that they are to obey the Angel “because My Name is in Him” (v.21), a similar description to that of the returning Son of Man in Revelation 19:11-16.
The one whom Moses (among others) knew and spoke to “face to face”
Despite the fact that no one has ever seen the Father while on this earth (see above), we are told that the elders saw the God of Israel (in company with Moses and Aaron: Ex.24:9-11), and we know that Moses entered the cloud of glory and spoke with the Lord on Sinai (Ex.24:16-18) and petitioned the Lord to “show me Your glory” (a request He granted: Ex.33:18ff.). We also find in Numbers 12:8 that Moses saw “the form of the Lord” and from Deuteronomy we know that unlike any other servant of the Lord, Moses spoke with Him “face to face” (Deut.34:10). This then surely is once again the Angel of the Lord, not the actual presence of the Father, but the appearance of the One who is sent by Him, speaks for Him, and who has undertaken to fulfill His plan of salvation in this world, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, appearing in pre-incarnate Christophany.
The angel who is said to have led the Israelites out of Egypt
Finally, the last appearance of the Angel in respect to the Exodus is at Judges 2:1-5. Here the Angel claims to be the One who “led you up from the land of Egypt” and reminds the Israelites that He will never break “My covenant with you”. Only the Father Himself could make such a claim – or Someone representing Him, that is, His Servant, our Lord Jesus Christ who would fulfill that covenant and minister a new one for us all in His blood.
The Angel of the Lord elsewhere
Other appearances of God in the Old Testament are likewise best taken as Christophanies, whether or not the actual term “the Angel of the Lord” is employed:
- The supernatural “Man” who wrestles with Jacob (Gen.32:22-32) elicits this response from Jacob: “I have seen God face to face, yet my life was spared”. Hosea 12:3-4 confirms that this was the Angel and God.
- The “Man” who appeared to Abraham along with His two companions in Genesis 18 is later said to be “the Lord” (v.22).
- The “Man” who appeared to Joshua (Josh.5:13-15) claims to be the “commander of the Lord’s host”. Joshua then not only worships Him (a thing forbidden where mere angels are involved: Rev.19:10; 22:9), but is also told to remove his sandals because he is standing on ground that is holy (i.e., sanctified by the presence of God: cf. Ex.3:5ff.).
- Along with Moses and Aaron, the elders of Israel see “the God of Israel” on Mt. Sinai (Ex.24:9-11). Despite the fact that no one has ever seen the Father, nor can see Him and live, they not only see the God of Israel, but have a symbolic meal of fellowship with Him, an event that clearly foreshadows communion based on the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, the coming “King of Israel” (Jn.1:49).
- The Angel of the Lord who appears to Gideon (Judg.6:11-23) is also said to be the Lord (vv.16-17). The Angel also identifies Himself with the sacrifice (by touching it with His staff) which then goes up in flames, representing the fiery judgment of God (that Christ was to undergo on our behalf).
- The Angel of the Lord’s appearance to the parents of Samson is similar to His appearance to Gideon (Judg.13:2-23). The Angel is described as such throughout the passage, but Manoah and his wife, though realizing that an angel has appeared to them, do not realize this is in fact the Angel of the Lord until His fiery departure (v.21), at which point Manoah exclaims “We have seen God” (v.22). The symbolism of self-sacrifice by the Angel is even more distinctly drawn in this passage, for He “ascended in the flame” of the burnt sacrifice (v.20), the very picture of Christ being judged on our behalf, teaching Old Testament believers to look forward to God’s future forgiveness of sins through a sacrifice that He would provide.
- We have already discussed Isaiah’s vision of Israel’s King (Is.6:1ff.), which turns out to be a vision of Jesus Christ as Israel’s appointed ruler in the line of David (Jn.12:41).
- Similarly, Ezekiel’s vision of God (Ezek.1:25-28) is strikingly similar to the description of the glorified Christ found in Revelation (Rev.1:12-16; cf. the elders of Israel on Mt. Sinai: Ex.24:9-11).
- Zechariah’s vision of the Angel of the Lord (Zech.1:7-17) is instructive because the Angel, clearly divine as seen from the examples above, is presented as distinct from the Lord of Hosts, that is, the Father, so that this is undoubtedly a Christophany.
- Finally, it has often been pointed out that after the birth of Christ, though angels do make many more appearances in the Bible, the Angel of the Lord no longer appears in the scriptures.
Conclusion
The Lord Jesus Christ has always been and will always be the Person with whom we have to do, and in whom we must believe in order to have an eternal relationship with the Father. It is only Christ who has “made the Father known” (Jn.1:18), and only through Him do we come to possess “the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ” (2Cor.4:6). In the Old Testament, we hear the Father appearing through the (pre-incarnate) Son; in the New Testament, we see and hear the (incarnate) Son speaking the Father’s words.
So the Trinity has always been present in God’s revelation of Himself to those who believe and follow Him. As Christians, whenever we say the word “God” we should keep in mind that for us, this means the Trinity – the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Video/audio transcript
00:0000:00 - so in this last lesson of this study of Bible basics part one theology we are going to be talking about the specific
00:0800:08 - passages going over appearances of Christ in the Old Testament so just to situate ourselves we just finished uh
00:1600:16 - recently talking about an overview of appearances of Christ in the Old Testament we talked about uh the
00:2300:23 - difference between theophanies and christophanies and the father’s invisibility his inaccessibility and his
00:2900:29 - dignity conted with the sun’s visibility accessibility and humility and that’s introducing the concept but here’s where
00:3500:35 - we are now in the study very bottom going over the actual cases of christophany in the Old Testament so if
00:4100:41 - we scroll down a bit this is what we’re going to be talking about in this lesson here this part of the study and so it’s
00:4600:46 - sort of organized into uh two different kind of groupings here we have uh the just another overview talking about sort
00:5500:55 - of the Angel of the Lord and what that means as a concept you know sort of what the words for Angel are in Greek and
01:0201:02 - Hebrew and how their kind of generic usage as Messengers is different from Jesus Christ as the angel definite
01:0901:09 - article of the Lord and then we’re going to talk about the angel of Exodus of the book of uh Exodus or at least the first
01:1701:17 - few books of the Bible where um the angel of the Lord leads the Israelites God’s people out of Egypt so we have
01:2401:24 - this um burning bush um you know the uh appearance of God to Moses calling him telling him to go to Egypt
01:3201:32 - and rescue his people the column of cloud and fire that went before the people of Israel as they wand the
01:3801:38 - Wilderness um the Angels sent before the Israelites to guard them on the way we have this passage in uh Exodus I think
01:4501:45 - it’s like chapter 21 we’ll see the verses in the slides um talking about how he sent before them and then we have
01:5201:52 - all these uh encounters with you know one member of the Trinity said to be God but someone who they speak to face to
02:0002:00 - face so Moses for example was said to be a friend of God who spoke to him face to face that’s actually the words that the
02:0602:06 - Bible itself uses and you know we’ve already talked before about how this means that uh these appearances of God
02:1202:12 - in the Old Testament have to be the sun because we have it on good authority also in the Bible that no one can see
02:1902:19 - the father and live um so there’s one way in which we know that all of these things have to be christophanies and
02:2502:25 - then finally I’m just talking about how in the Book of Judges we get this mention of
02:3002:30 - how the people were said to be led out of Egypt by the Angel um who we know to be the angel of the Lord definite
02:3702:37 - article because we know that God himself was in that pillar or the pillar of cloud and fire um so all of these things
02:4402:44 - we’ll tie them together with the specific passages and we’ll get this idea this powerful representation of God
02:5002:50 - personally leading his people out of Slavery to Egypt um that is highly symbolic um you know Egypt that place we
02:5702:57 - turn back to in our hearts that’s us in sin man that is US turning to the Wicked Ways of the world um now we’re not going
03:0503:05 - to make too much more out of the metaphor than it is but you know this parallel we see as well is also going to
03:1103:11 - be in play when we get to the end times in human history we are going to be you know Watching God judge the wickedness
03:2003:20 - of the world just how he judged uh the Egyptians with the plagues we’re going to see the the trumpet and bold
03:2603:26 - judgments of Revelation as God preserves his people throughout that most trying time in
03:3203:32 - human history and we will see the promised land at the end of it all we will have the peace and restoration of
03:3803:38 - the Millennium just how the Israelites were led into the promised land of Canaan so in any case um the angel of
03:4603:46 - Exodus um the uh rep uh the appearances of God as the definite artical Angel of the Lord in his direct shepherding of
03:5503:55 - his people out of Egypt uh is one of the more um I I suppose like one of the the places
04:0304:03 - in the Old Testament where we more frequently see God appear um as as opposed to being in Visions or talking
04:0904:09 - to prophets or something we actually have what we would call physical manifestations of God in this particular
04:1604:16 - account of uh the people of Israel being led out of Egypt and then we’re also going to go over uh where the angel of
04:2304:23 - the Lord is mentioned elsewhere in the Bible or where we we understand it to be him by implication um so we’re going to
04:3004:30 - get this this nice wide understanding look at all these passages together that show these appearances of God in the Old
04:3704:37 - Testament and just as we’ve been arguing all along we’re going to conclude that all of these are in fact christophanies
04:4304:43 - that it’s the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ who manifests as the angel of the Lord in these Old Testament appearances of
04:5004:50 - God um and then notably um after Jesus Christ takes on a human nature in the Incarnation we stop hearing about the
04:5704:57 - angel of the Lord there is no the Angel of the Lord in the New Testament there’s just Jesus Christ and so that is the
05:0305:03 - evidence here that there is continuity that the second member of the Trinity is and has always been the one who is
05:1005:10 - visible to us so we’re just going to be tying up this study kind of going over this last loose end in uh the Trinity
05:1905:19 - talking about how the Trinity was manifested in the Old Testament with Jesus Christ sent on behalf of God the
05:2605:26 - Father so the first thing that we’re going to be talking about here uh is sort of
05:3405:34 - going in a little bit more depth about this idea of the definite article Angel of the Lord and what that means and how
05:4105:41 - we kind of contrast that with uh Messengers or Representatives sent on God’s behalf who were not you know Jesus
05:4905:49 - Christ because we have actual literal angels we also have human beings who can be sent as messengers of God like the
05:5505:55 - prophets for example so uh we have been in the process here of demon rating that the appearances of God to Believers in
06:0206:02 - the Old Testament are really pre-incarnate appearances of the father’s representative that is Jesus
06:0706:07 - Christ acting for the father and speaking in his stead that was sort of the point of the last lesson we went
06:1306:13 - over kind of uh outlining exactly what theophanes and christophanies are as Concepts and arguing that in fact Jesus
06:2106:21 - Christ pre-incarnate Jesus Christ was the member of the Trinity who appeared to folks in the Old Testament and so in
06:3006:30 - the majority of these cases the Old Testament identifies such appearances using this particular phrase here is the
06:3806:38 - Angel of the Lord and the importance of the wordthe is important there or sorry the the wordthe is important there
06:4606:46 - because it is a so-called definite article it means that we’re talking about a specific Angel of the Lord this
06:5206:52 - one as opposed to just any old messenger of the Lord because that is actually what angel means so skipping ahead a bit
07:0107:01 - here um the Greek word for Angel is angas um so you may actually see this transliterated sometimes with two G’s
07:0807:08 - because in Greek a gamma that comes before another Gamma or another V Act V consonant is pronounced as sort of the
07:1807:18 - the same sound as in the word sing at the end of the word v nasal sound so angas here and then Malak in Hebrew it
07:2707:27 - also has that same meaning here of messenger uh someone who is sent as a representative um and so we have some
07:3607:36 - confusion here because angels have all this baggage from centuries and centuries of people talking about and
07:4307:43 - teaching on these things that maybe sometimes we muddy the waters a bit here and we do have appearances of angels in
07:5007:50 - the Bible we’ll get to that just a sec but uh who we are talking about here with the angel of the Lord is not an
07:5707:57 - angel as in that c ategory of created being we are talking about a member of the Trinity um so when God Appears in
08:0808:08 - his interrogation of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden in the middle part of Genesis chapter 3 so when it says
08:1408:14 - Genesis 38 says that they heard the sound of the Lord God Walking In The Garden in the cool of the day and then
08:2108:21 - they hid themselves we have no mention of Angels In this passage you know it wasn’t an Angelic being walking around
08:2908:29 - in the garden it was the Lord God and so there is a physical manifestation of deity present in this account in Genesis
08:3808:38 - chapter 3 but we don’t have any mention of angels whatsoever and we also just know from all these passages that we’re
08:4508:45 - going to be going through that angel here is variously described as the Lord and the angel of the Lord so basically
08:5408:54 - we know that all of these appearances have to be God manifesting himself to mankind as in physically something that
09:0209:02 - people can see with their eyes it’s not like I don’t know a spectre in their minds or something like that it is
09:0709:07 - actually God manifesting himself to humanity and so as we kind of skipped ahead we’re talking about how angels are
09:1509:15 - different than this right we said there were no Angels present in this passage in Genesis chapter 3 this is just the
09:2109:21 - Lord God talking to Adam and Eve directly face to face um angels as a class of created creature are different
09:3009:30 - than humans um Angels were created first ichus talks in great detail about some of angelic prehistory in the satanic
09:3709:37 - Rebellion series um on the site um so all of that happens before the creation of mankind and in fact we are sort of in
09:4509:45 - the midst of this Cosmic battle between Satan and the rebelling Angels uh and God of course God could win in an
09:5309:53 - instant but he’s letting this play out because these created creatures have dained to raise their hand against their
09:5909:59 - creator but they are not God they are not they don’t have the essence of divinity one of those properties being
10:0610:06 - you know Infinity omniscience omnipotence externality to SpaceTime angels are just creatures they are you
10:1510:15 - know smarter and wiser and and much more powerful than we are but they’re still just created beings um so those are
10:2210:22 - Angelic messengers of the actual quote unquote Angel variety but we do not refer to them when we talk about the
10:3310:33 - angel of the Lord and so uh importantly actually these words that I mentioned so angas in Greek and Malak in Hebrew
10:4210:42 - actually don’t necessarily even mean a supernatural being as in we have the angel of the Lord who is pre-incarnate
10:4910:49 - Jesus Christ we have Angels like Gabriel for example who are you know Angelic beings beings other than humans but it
10:5810:58 - can actually just apply to normal regular human Messengers as well this is just the word in Greek and Hebrew for
11:0511:05 - saying someone sent on behalf of another someone who is a messenger um Messengers from God you know who aren’t inherently
11:1311:13 - human you know except for the prophets who hear things from God well they would of necessity have to be Supernatural and
11:2011:20 - a lot of the time so for example when uh the birth of the Messiah is communicated to Mary that is done through an Angel um
11:2911:29 - uh Supernatural messenger from God who is not Jesus because you know the angel is communicating to Mary that Jesus will
11:3711:37 - be born this is an actual angel in the literal sense of the word you know how we use that word in English but the
11:4411:44 - point is is that the word doesn’t necessarily have to mean that it can mean messenger and then you have to do
11:5011:50 - some interpretation you know exercise that principle of hermeneutics that pulling things from Context you have to
11:5811:58 - read things in the context in which they were written figure out what is the meaning what is the sense here well when
12:0312:03 - you do all of that background work you will pretty clearly see that we have this pattern here that sometimes
12:1112:11 - messenger refers to human being sometimes it refers to Angels that’s pretty commonly who it refers to uh kind
12:1712:17 - of if God is communicating with humanity and it’s not otherwise clear that the one doing the communicating as God
12:2312:23 - himself then often times God did speak through Angels um so it wasn’t just in the new test you know Daniel several
12:3112:31 - times had Angels communicate things to him for example um but some of the time it is also the angel of the Lord this
12:4112:41 - this reincarnate appearance of Jesus Christ as the one and only representative of the father in a way
12:4812:48 - that angels as created beings simply aren’t um and so this isn’t to say that they’re not true messengers of God they
12:5512:55 - are acting in their capacity but they aren’t the messenger of God um and so that’s sort of the point that
13:0113:01 - we’re introducing here the angel of the Lord is an entirely different story for scripture uses this phrase to designate
13:0813:08 - an appearance of God himself taking on messenger form to deliver a message personally and so as we’ve already
13:1513:15 - talked about it’s best to take these appearances of the Angel of the Lord to be appearances of the messenger and
13:2213:22 - minister of the father and that is Jesus Christ he is sent as the agent or the representative of our salvation of our
13:2913:29 - Redemption and so for example when we read of Isaiah’s vision of the Lord and this comes in chapter six of the book of
13:3613:36 - Isaiah we have this accounting of a person sitting on the throne someone who’s highly exalted and this is where
13:4413:44 - we hear that Holy Holy Holy and Isaiah says woe is me I am ruined because I’m a man of unclean lips um and so king of uh
13:5213:52 - the king the Lord of hosts here well who is Isaiah seeing here is he seeing the father or is he seeing the son well in
13:5913:59 - John 12: 41 we get this mention of Isaiah saying that he said these things because he saw his glory and he spoke of
14:0814:08 - him uh it’s not quite an airtight deductive argument there this a little bit inferential but we have this this
14:1514:15 - inkling then that Isaiah is actually talking about seeing Christ’s glory and this uh to go back to the uh concept we
14:2214:22 - talked about in our last lesson is kind of getting that idea of the monarchy of Jesus Christ ruling as a regent on the
14:2914:29 - father’s behalf Jesus not only the father but Jesus is called the king of king and the Lord of lords um so we have
14:3614:36 - this hold on I know it comes up somewhere in the future here uh here uh in Revelation sorry I just have memory
14:4514:45 - because I was going through the slides earlier here uh Jesus has a name written on his thigh king of King and Lord of
14:5114:51 - lords this is right there in Revelation this is when he’s returning in Revelation chapter 19 so Jesus has that
14:5714:57 - he has that monarchy has that Authority delegated from the father here um and so where I’m going with all this is that
15:0515:05 - that when we see Visions or not when we when prophets saw Visions were they seeing the father were they seeing
15:1315:13 - Christ sometimes they were actually seeing Christ too it’s not just appearing before people it depends on
15:1915:19 - context of course as we said it’s important for us to not try to make rules where there aren’t any we always
15:2515:25 - have to figure out you know who is in view by reading the round in context of the passages but the point is this is
15:3215:32 - Jesus in his capacity as the King of Kings and the Lord of lords the glorified ruler of the earth who has
15:3815:38 - accepted the mantle of rulership from the Father and Jesus will reign until he has placed all enemies under his feet in
15:4615:46 - which point um the world is turned over to the father you know we have the heavens and the Earth remade so that’s a
15:5215:52 - quote from 1 Corinthians chapter 15 says he must Reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet
16:0016:00 - so all of this is talking about Jesus serving as that representative just how we’ve been talking about from the
16:0616:06 - beginning the distinction in terminology we’re making here is that we are talking about the definite article Angel of the
16:1316:13 - Lord we’re putting sort of a title to it when Jesus appears in the Old Testament very often this language is used of him
16:2016:20 - and even when it’s not we can infer in other places that this is the being who is who has been sent by the father um
16:2916:29 - so the appearance of uh the Lord to Moses in giving the Mosaic law uh presents a pretty similar Vision to that
16:3716:37 - of Isaiah here at first glance we may assume that Moses is actually viewing the father or his likeness somehow but
16:4416:44 - the New Testament is actually quite explicit in stating that the law was given through angels and so in Greek
16:5116:51 - that is dongon here so this is a preposition uh that can mean like through um that’s typic how it’s
16:5916:59 - translated so through Angel the angelan here um we see that in all these passages which I’ll read a little bit
17:0517:05 - later when we get to them but you can well no maybe I’ll go through them now so you can see verse 19 it says that
17:1217:12 - transgressions having been ordained through Angels by the agency of immediate right so the law coming
17:1817:18 - through Angels Galatians chapter 3: 19-20 Hebrews chapter 2:2 says for if the words spoken through Angels proved
17:2717:27 - unalterable that his again talking about the law being given acts 7:38 um this is the one who was in the
17:3617:36 - congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Si the angel speaking to him
17:4317:43 - although we know from Exodus chapter 32 through 34 you know that account of Moses receiving the law that it was the
17:5017:50 - Lord as in that tetragrammaton is used of him in the Hebrew the Lord was speaking to Moses so if he’s called an
17:5717:57 - angel or the Angel rather but he’s also called God that’s where we get the angel of the Lord from um and then acts 7: 53
18:0718:07 - uh again said to have the laws ordained by Angels received through Angels um so all of this means that the laws were
18:1618:16 - given to humanity by a messenger or a representative and the problem with this translation as we just went through is
18:2418:24 - that a lot of the times people think that we have like I don’t know Michael or Gabriel floating around as in Angelic
18:3018:30 - creatures of the class of beings that we call Angels rather than it being these things were given through a messenger is
18:3918:39 - the sense here and that messenger was Jesus Christ um so these Angelic appearances are represented in the Old
18:4618:46 - Testaments as appearances of God here’s that passage from Exodus chapter 34 I was mentioning you can’t take this as
18:5418:54 - anything other than the Lord the Lord descended in the cloud and stood there with him as he called upon the name of
18:5918:59 - the Lord the Lord passed in front of him the Lord the Lord God you know this is God talking to Moses god appearing
19:0619:06 - before Moses it is not like Gabriel or one of the other messenger Angels this is God himself except that passage in
19:1519:15 - Acts chapter 7 here just said that Moses was talking to an angel so you see how people might get
19:2219:22 - confused by this if they try to equate these with Angelic beings well if Exodus 34 says that you know it was God talking
19:3019:30 - to Moses but Acts chapter 7 says it was an angel talking to Moses and you think Angel equals creature you know not Angel
19:3719:37 - as the angel of the Lord then people run into problems because of this but this is actually exactly why it must be the
19:4419:44 - case that the New Testament passages which ascribe the giving of the law to angels are actually indicating that the
19:5119:51 - father spoke the law to Moses through an appearance of the Angel of the Lord a manifestation of our pre-incarnate Lord
20:0020:00 - Jesus Christ that is through christophany the law was given to us through a messenger through a
20:0720:07 - representative not by God the Father directly because that’s what the New Testament says and the only way to make
20:1420:14 - this not have contradictions is if we understand that the person who was sent as a messenger the person who is called
20:2120:21 - an angel here you know angalo in uh the Greek which we should probably better translate less confusing in our Modern
20:2920:29 - English versions as messenger rather than Angel so that people don’t get as confused well the one sent as a
20:3420:34 - messenger in this giving of the law was in fact Jesus Christ not you know an Angelic being like
20:4220:42 - Gabriel so I I know that was a lot of information this is sort of the Whirlwind overview to the specific
20:4820:48 - concept that we’re going over here is that Jesus is the definite article Angel of the Lord he serves as we’ve already
20:5420:54 - talked about as a messenger or a representative of the father but we’re talking here about how that makes him
21:0121:01 - distinct from both human Messengers and messengers of an Angelic variety as in the class of faded beings called angels
21:1021:10 - He is different from both of them because he is actually God so lot to go through there aie do you
21:1821:18 - have anything to add to this kind of upfront overview of how we’re talking about Jesus in
21:2521:25 - his want say christop appearances when he’s appearing in christophanies I think you covered the
21:3421:34 - the whole ground really the fact that uh Angel is not um it’s really not the shall we say
21:4221:42 - technical name of the class of creatures that God created before human beings were created we we we only have this uh
21:5221:52 - we do have other terms the sons of God and uh um gods and what not yes we we have that but um we we frequently call
22:0322:03 - them angels and that has given many especially in our times the notion that when you see the word angel in the
22:1222:12 - Scriptures it would necessarily be addressing itself to a class of creatures but you’ve made it clear that
22:2122:21 - in fact it’s just a word that means messenger and the messenger of the Lord Lord is um a very definite person that
22:3322:33 - we’re talking about it’s not just any one of the many messengers of the Lord but this one is a very he’s a unique one
22:4222:42 - he stands out yeah um there isn’t uh there isn’t much more that I think uh I have to see yeah add we see this
22:5322:53 - distinctness that AI mentioned more clearly when we actually go through all the passages here this is just sort of
22:5922:59 - the upfront or just priming us to be ready for when we talk about Jesus in this way but we’re going to see all the
23:0523:05 - passages as we go through the next slides here I me you know like we said this word that we translate as messenger
23:1323:13 - the fact that a lot of versions actually translated as Angel is actually somewhat what is confusing because in
23:2023:20 - English in English when we use the word Angel we don’t think messenger we think subass of creature right but the problem
23:2923:29 - is that in Greek they’re one and the same thing but we have specialized the meaning of that word such that I
23:3523:35 - actually think that this particular translation here in nasby 95 is a mistranslation I don’t think you should
23:4123:41 - use that word in English here I think you need to say together with the messenger or the representative of the
23:4623:46 - father if you want who was speaking with him on sin because when you translate as Angel people think that it’s like
23:5223:52 - Gabriel because that’s how we use the word um so uh it’s not any one translation that
23:5923:59 - does this I mean I bet if we were to go look up this verse in a bunch of different Bible versions it’s not like
24:0324:03 - this is the only one that actually translates that word as Angel but it just tends to be misleading for us in
24:0924:09 - English uh because of how people use it yeah all right well I think that’s where we’ll stop this overview we will pick up
24:1824:18 - talking about all of these appearances of the Angel of the Lord throughout the Old Testament um so that’s what we will
24:2624:26 - kind of spend the rest of this lesson going about we’re going to talk first about specifically the appearances of
24:3124:31 - this Angel of the Lord in The Exodus account so that Narrative of God leading his people out of Egypt but we’ll also
24:3824:38 - see that there’s some other there’s some other appearances of of the Angel of the Lord the definite artical Angel of the
24:4524:45 - Lord in the Old Testament too quite a few in fact and so um that’s kind of what we’ll be spending the rest of our
24:5024:50 - time in this lesson talking about so now we’re going to be talking about this concept of the Angel of the
25:0025:00 - Lord that we have been going over this pre-incarnate Jesus Christ appearing to people in the Old Testament as the agent
25:0825:08 - or representative of the father well now we’re going to spend some time specifically focusing on uh certain
25:1425:14 - things related to The Exodus the uh Escape of the people of Israel from slavery in Egypt and their Journey to
25:2225:22 - the promised land so um of all the places in scripture this is some of where we see most directly uh the
25:3025:30 - activity of the definite article Angel of the Lord you know he comes up in these places uh in this narrative so the
25:3825:38 - giving of the law on Mount Si the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire we’ll go through some other ones as you see as we
25:4425:44 - go here but this gives us a sense of God’s relationship with his people and the one cent who we have talked about
25:5425:54 - being a messenger but not just any old messenger like human being beings or angels as creatures but the messenger of
26:0226:02 - God the person who actually speaks for the father who has the authority to do that and that is of course the
26:0926:09 - pre-incarnate Jesus Christ and so um the angel of The Exodus demonstrates both the Divinity of the Angel of the Lord
26:2026:20 - and his identification as a pre-incarnate manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we can kind of make
26:2626:26 - such a strong assertion I think we’ll become a little bit clearer as we go through the first couple examples here
26:3226:32 - um but basically we know that this isn’t just any old run-of-the-mill messenger because there are overtones of divinity
26:4126:41 - in the passages we’re going to look at it it is clear that we are talking about God as in Yahweh Jehovah however you
26:5026:50 - want to transliterate the tetragramaton um you know the god of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob the god of your forefathers
26:5726:57 - that God is who we are talking about here and yet uh the being represented in many of these cases is also called an
27:0627:06 - Angel um and so the only way that you reconcile these things as we’ve kind of already been over is that well it has to
27:1227:12 - be a messenger who is also god um and that makes perfect sense we understand that that is the role that the son has
27:1927:19 - chosen to adopt in the Trinity he speaks as the father’s agent uh carrying the authority of the father to be clear but
27:2727:27 - on his behalf he represents the plan of the Trinity to humanity as the one who we see the one who is visible to us uh
27:3627:36 - to whom we have access and so uh you’ll kind of see exactly what I mean by quote unquote the angel of The Exodus as we go
27:4527:45 - here on that is I I I suppose I haven’t read all the systematic theologies in the world I this is sort of something
27:5127:51 - that we’re coining here as just a shorthand way to represent uh the being who is very much guiding Israel
27:5927:59 - throughout this period And so just as way of shorthand we’re going to call this being the angel of The Exodus you
28:0528:05 - know you just compare the angel of the lord it’s the same it’s the same person uh it is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ
28:1228:12 - but uh we are arguing that this person we’re talking about here is the Angel of the Lord as in christophany as in the
28:2028:20 - pre-incarnate Jesus Christ that’s kind of the argument we’re making um but you’ll see exactly what we mean by this
28:2528:25 - as we go through the following passages uh because it will kind of situate Us in context of of all the times that God
28:3228:32 - Appears to the Israelites during this period in the Old Testament so the specific Focus here is going to be on
28:3928:39 - passages from the first few books of the Bible so it’s not strictly going to be Exodus although a lot of passages will
28:4528:45 - come from that book specifically you know we’ll get some from numbers and Deuteronomy and things like that too um
28:5028:50 - so things like from the calling of Moses with the burning bush to Israel’s flight from Egypt and pharaoh to their settle
28:5828:58 - in the promised land in every step of the way during this journey they were Guided by a pre-incarnate Jesus Christ
29:0629:06 - on behalf of the father so it’s not like Jesus of his own will decided that this was the path that the Israelites were
29:1229:12 - going to take he was there as a representative of the father as God worked out his Redemptive plan for
29:1929:19 - Israel which by the way is a symbol of his Redemption of us right um and so we’ve talked a little bit about
29:2729:27 - symbolism and typology already but once you start looking for it you will see it everywhere um and this is one such
29:3329:33 - instance here with God’s Deliverance of his people out of the clutches of pharaoh into the promised land we talked
29:4029:40 - about this uh eschatologically already a bit you know is going to mirror us going through the tribulation and being
29:4729:47 - delivered to the Millennium but it also is true of us on a personal spiritual level as well um and so uh it’s not like
29:5429:54 - we’re allegorizing this overly it’s just typology can have multiple fulfillments that’s the sort of idea here but not to
30:0030:00 - belabor that point too much as we go through these just keep in your mind that this person who is very physically
30:0930:09 - present with the Israelites in this time of their need this is the god whom we serve today as well and he is just as
30:1730:17 - present for us if only we would turn to him um and I think sometimes we forget that I don’t want to go off on a tangent
30:2430:24 - here but just I think it’s a point worth making that we think well you know back in the old days when people were more uh
30:3130:31 - superstitious and we didn’t have smartphone cameras maybe God does things in the world you know maybe there’s a
30:3730:37 - pillar of Fire in the Sky but you know we live in the the boring modern times where Miracles don’t happen or whatever
30:4530:45 - and part of this is that we get fixated on physical Supernatural events as in Pillars of Fire And The Parting of the
30:5330:53 - Red Sea but we fail to understand God’s spiritual deliverance and the spiritual import behind things because honestly
31:0031:00 - that’s the important part right God takes us out of position of spiritual death to life eternal that’s way more
31:0931:09 - impactful than just moving some water right um and I think that’s the attitude we need to have when we think about
31:1531:15 - these things carrying it forward to ourselves is we’re not just studying this because G whiz all these things
31:2131:21 - happened in the past well that’s nice we’re studying it because it helps us understand God who he is what he does
31:2831:28 - for his people and we are his people not just Israel we have been grafted onto the vine of Israel As Romans chapter 11
31:3631:36 - tells us so um before we kick off here Audi is there anything else you want to say just on uh kind of The Exodus story
31:4531:45 - itself and why that’s a good way for us to frame talking about christophany specifically I think what you’ve said is
31:5431:54 - pretty much enough I don’t think uh I’m going to be able to say anything right now that won’t preempt a lot of stuff we
32:0132:01 - will’ll be getting into and that’s pretty normal for us right you know we have lots to go through so we’ll get to
32:0732:07 - it in the individual ones then but just trying to frame us basically just be thinking about some of the stuff we’ve
32:1432:14 - talked about here as we go through all the examples moving forward we’re talking about all of these specific
32:1932:19 - passages to give us that sense of ah this person who guided the Israelites that is the God we serve that is the pre
32:2732:27 - carnate Jesus Christ appearing to us in the Old Testament it is christophany so just bear that thought in mind as we go
32:3432:34 - forward with all of the specific passages kind of what we’re trying to frame everything
32:3932:39 - with yeah so the first appearance that we’re going to look at quite a famous one I
32:4832:48 - might add here is the burning bush in Exodus chapter three so I’m going to go ahead and read some of this it’s
32:5532:55 - probably a familiar passage to many people uh it’s a powerful physical symbol of the Judgment Christ endured
33:0233:02 - for us the bush which is not consumed by the fire right um and Dr lugan Bill explains how we get there a little bit
33:0933:09 - more with some of the verses that we’ll go over in a second here but this is the story of when Moses encounters the
33:1633:16 - burning bush in the first part of Exodus chapter 3 so Exodus chapter 3 picking up at verse two says the angel of the Lord
33:2433:24 - appeared to him that is Moses in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush and he looked and behold the Bush was
33:3133:31 - burning with fire yet the Bush was not consumed so Moses said I must turn aside now and see this marvelous sight why
33:3833:38 - this bush is not burned up when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look God Called to him from the midst of the Bush
33:4533:45 - and said Moses Moses and he said here I am then he he being God saido not come near here remove your sandals from your
33:5633:56 - feet for the place on which you are standing is Holy Ground he also said I am the god of your father the god of
34:0334:03 - Abraham the god of Isaac and the god of Jacob then Moses hid his face for he was afraid to look at God the Lord said I
34:1134:11 - have surely seen the Affliction of my people who are in Egypt and have given heed to their cry because of their task
34:1634:16 - Masters for I am aware of their sufferings and so then God goes on to tell Moses that you know he is going to
34:2434:24 - bring his people out of the clutches of Egypt um because he has not turned his face away from their oppression but the
34:3134:31 - point here is that you can see in verse two that it opens with the angel of the lord it’s what verse two says right but
34:4134:41 - then in verse six the the the being who is speaking says I am the god of your father the god of Abraham the god of
34:4934:49 - Isaac and the god of Jacob now to the monotheistic uh Jewish Folks at the time they would have said well this has to be
34:5634:56 - the father right because they didn’t understand that there were multiple people within the Trinity they didn’t
35:0335:03 - understand the Trinity um so to them well I don’t know exactly what they thought I I am not in their mind in
35:1035:10 - their culture in their temporal context but some of that might have been a little bit confused because when we hear
35:1735:17 - things about the the Holiness of the father how do you reconcile that with the fact that well people were talking
35:2435:24 - to him right now to be fair some of the references for that we’ll get back to these we’ve talked about these already
35:2935:29 - um it’s somewhat only in the New Testament that that this distinction of no one can see the father we’ve talked
35:3535:35 - about this in 1 Timothy 6:16 that the father uh lives in unapproachable light whom no one has seen or can see and then
35:4335:43 - John 1:18 says that no one has ever seen God but only the one and only son right well that’s New Testament um but
35:5035:50 - regardless we see in this passage here that the angel of the Lord is God you know if you compare verse two and verse
35:5735:57 - six that’s immediately what you have to take like that’s the context that’s what the passage says all right so if the
36:0436:04 - angel of the Lord is God here well you know it’s a bit more of a generalization to say that every time the angel of the
36:1236:12 - Lord if when we use that definite article in the phrasing shows up that that’s you know God well that is the
36:1836:18 - argument we’re going to make but you know you can kind of see how maybe we need a little bit more evidence than a
36:2236:22 - single passage to go on and and we’ll get there you know we have multiple passages but let’s talk a little bit
36:2736:27 - more about some of the specifics of this passage like what some of the symbolism here means so it is the Angel of the
36:3436:34 - Lord as verse two tells us who appeared to Moses in the fiery Flames but shortly thereafter the angel represents himself
36:4236:42 - as God the father or I think we should say here in the same way that we hear of God reporting himself elsewhere saying I
36:5036:50 - am the god of your father the god of Abraham the god of Isaac and the god of Jacob that’s verse six like we just
36:5536:55 - talked about and then he also says later on in verse 14 which I gu I didn’t really get to skimmed over some stuff
37:0237:02 - but uh this should look familiar to us here this I am who I am uh you know God tells Moses I am has sent has sent me to
37:1237:12 - you right this is Exodus chapter 3 vers I want to say 15 or so Exodus chapter 3 at any way um well this is that passage
37:2137:21 - here this is God saying who he is but this is the angel of the Lord right in context
37:3037:30 - here um you so I said have it right in front of me here it is verse 14 right um and so when we think of this In this
37:3937:39 - passage which we started out this study talking about we talked about how God’s very nature is existing that’s who God
37:4737:47 - is he is existence uh the Alpha and the Omega he who is and was and is to come and so that is the fundamental
37:5637:56 - characteristic of divinity we would say of the unchanging existence of God um and so even here in this rather famous
38:0738:07 - passage where God tells us who he is he uses the tetr Graton you know that four letters in Hebrew that represent that
38:1538:15 - are tied up in this idea of existence uh well when he’s saying this the angel of the Lord is present in this context
38:2338:23 - right um the angel of the Lord is the one who says I am who I am um so that is something right and so we also know that
38:3538:35 - you know he’s identified as the Lord you know verse seven this is you see the small caps Lord here that is the that is
38:4338:43 - the tetragramaton um in the Hebrew you know it was transliterated different ways you may see this sometimes as
38:4938:49 - Yahweh or Jehovah uh depends how people transliterate it you know but uh these are the four Hebrew letters together
38:5938:59 - that represent the Divine name of God and so not going to overly belor the point the point is the Angel of the Lord
39:0639:06 - is most definitely God proper that’s what this passage tells us but to move into some of the symbolism here a little
39:1439:14 - bit the symbolism of the fire and the bush is important so uh there are other places where the angel of the Lord kind
39:2239:22 - of just walks up to people like he talks to Abraham in I want to say Genesis chap 18 I think we’ll get there it’s in the
39:3039:30 - later section but where you know he manifests and talks to people like physically so why did God appear to uh
39:3839:38 - Moses in the burning bush like what’s the point of that why not just appear to him and talk to him normally you know
39:4439:44 - why why burning bush um so the symbolism of the fire and the bush is actually quite important um it is foreshadowing
39:5239:52 - we would say if this were a literary work which the Bible is in some respects but it’s prophetic for us it is prophecy
39:5939:59 - of what was to come on the cross um so the bush calls attention to Christ the Messiah as the branch or the root um and
40:0840:08 - so there’s a lot of passages that we’re just going to look at real briefly here the concept of Christ as the branch you
40:1540:15 - know we have the I am the vine you are the branches sort of thing in John chapter 15 but Jesus as uh you know
40:2240:22 - using this analogy of plants and the growth of plants to represent um kind of Jesus’s mission and his identity so just
40:3140:31 - going to go through some passages here this is just a driveby really honestly I’m just showing you this idea of this
40:3840:38 - this idea of like being the root or being the branch shows up actually it’s very well attested in scripture so the
40:4540:45 - idea of the Bush here is kind of what we’re getting at you know it’s this this plant that is being consumed by fire
40:5240:52 - well if Jesus is the plant that’s what we’re going to establish the fire represents judgment so Isaiah 4:2 says
41:0041:00 - in that day the branch of the Lord will be beautiful and glorious and so on and so forth um Isaiah 11 verse1 then a
41:0941:09 - chute will spring from the stem of Jesse and a branch from his roots will bear fruit right so stem of Jess that’s David
41:1841:18 - right um and so a descendant of David it’s called this branch that will bear fruit that’s Jesus Christ Isaiah chter
41:2541:25 - 53:2 um this is part of the suffering servant passage in Isaiah chapter 534 he grew up
41:3341:33 - before him like a tender Chute and like a root out of parched ground and so on and so forth right but same idea
41:4141:41 - continuing this idea of the plant metaphor the plant analogy in Jeremiah 23:5 behold the days are coming declares
41:5141:51 - the Lord when I will raise up for David A righteous branch and he will reign as king and act wisely and do justice and
41:5841:58 - righteousness in the land so again we have this idea of the branch Jeremiah 33:15 in those days and at that time I
42:0742:07 - will cause a righteous branch of David to Spring forth and he shall execute Justice and righteousness on the earth
42:1442:14 - zecharia Zechariah 3:8 now listen Joshua the high priest you and your friends who are sitting in front of you indeed they
42:2342:23 - are men who are a symbol for behold I am going to bring in my servant the branch and then Zechariah
42:3242:32 - 6:12 then say to him thus says the Lord of hosts Behold a man whose name is Branch for he will Branch out from where
42:4042:40 - he is and he will build the Temple of the Lord okay so all this to show that far from this place in Exodus chapter 3
42:5042:50 - kind of being an anomaly as in why is this symbolism present in Exodus 3 why is God speaking to Moses through a bush
42:5942:59 - well it’s because we have this analogy that’s actually well attested through the other prophets in the Old Testament
43:0643:06 - and all of this prophecy uh especially with the hindsight we have now that we have the New Testament is very obviously
43:1243:12 - Messianic pointing to Jesus Christ he is the branch out of the stem of Jesse right he is the one in the divic line
43:2243:22 - who fulfills all of these things okay so that’s the identity of Jesus Christ as the bush as the branch as you know the
43:3143:31 - outshoot of Pless if you will but the fire here represents the Judgment of the cross that does not consume him so that
43:4143:41 - not consuming him bit is important because most things that burn um you know burning is actually a chemical
43:4943:49 - reaction and the output of it is you know it takes oxygen from the air and all this stuff happens and well at the
43:5643:56 - end of it you get ashes you have burned the thing you know you it is no longer in the same state as it was it is not
44:0344:03 - burned without being consumed that’s not the normal state of things here in this world that’s not how physics works if
44:0944:09 - you want to put it that way um however this idea of the branch burning yet not being consumed well that didn’t just
44:1844:18 - happen for no reason either and that is because that represents the Judgment that Jesus Christ took for us upon the
44:2644:26 - cross um so I’m not going to read this whole chapter because this is rather lengthy and it’s part of the law but in
44:3344:33 - Leviticus chapter 1 um it actually starts off talking about the legal codes relate relating to Burnt offerings and
44:4244:42 - so under the law they had blood sacrifice was part of it but they also had burnt offerings as in with fire and
44:5044:50 - elsewhere we know that fire um is definitely a symbol for judgment um and so for example a rather famous passage
45:0045:00 - in the New Testament where uh John the Baptist is speaking of baptism with spirit and with fire well if you
45:0645:06 - interpret that passage correctly baptism with fire is not something you want um this is not talking about Pentecost with
45:1245:12 - the tongues of fire representing baptism of the holy spirit it’s not that baptism with fire is like the Lake of Fire in
45:1845:18 - eternity right the fire in the Lake of Fire is God’s judgment um so Leviticus chapter 1 under the symbols of the law
45:2845:28 - the the system that the priests after the uh you know like the the levitical priesthood they made all these
45:3545:35 - sacrifices and they followed all these regulations for burnt offerings because that is symbolic of the Divine judgment
45:4445:44 - that accompanies the Forgiveness of sins um so here in um Exodus chapter 3 where we have the bush that is on fire facing
45:5545:55 - the Judgment of God yet not being consumed this is the work of Jesus Christ upon the cross the the God man
46:0446:04 - dying for Humanity in their place yet bearing it in his body through that hypostatic Union is what we call it
46:1246:12 - right the idea that he’s fully God and fully man and he had to be both in order to pay for our sin all of that is
46:1946:19 - symbolized here um so I know I’ve talked for a long time here you can just see though that we’ve pulled in a lot of
46:2646:26 - other things that are related to this right we talked about all these passages that mention Jesus Christ as the branch
46:3446:34 - you know coming in the line of David he’s a prophecied successor uh who will bring Justice and righteousness to the
46:4246:42 - world well the bush is representing this and then the fire here represents his judgment and the fact that he’s not
46:5046:50 - consumed is foreshadowing what happens on the cross where he burns in payment of our sins
46:5746:57 - yet is not overcome by it because human beings would just be annihilated we would cease to exist we can’t pay for
47:0447:04 - our own sin only Jesus could um so all of that is actually caught up here in this first appearance which as we’ve
47:1247:12 - talked about is the definite article Angel of the Lord who is also said to be Yahweh tetragramaton the god of Abraham
47:2147:21 - and Isaac and Jacob are said to be one and the same and so that’s why we know that this one has to be christophany
47:2847:28 - because Jesus Christ is obviously representing for and speaking for the Father Here In this passage in Exodus
47:3447:34 - chapter three so was a little bit rambly but aie you have I’m sure other things we can talk about here
47:4347:43 - um yeah um okay first of all I’ll apologize for um any noise from my little one apparently she decided she
47:5447:54 - didn’t want to sleep after all so she’s up again um I think that one thing that I want to
48:0448:04 - say is it’s less about making an argument for whether or not you know everything that Moses actually
48:1148:11 - experienced was a christophany and more about showing
48:1648:16 - just um the many the multitudinous ways in which this was
48:2548:25 - foreshadowing the coming of the Messiah because there is one overarching proof that everything that
48:3448:34 - Moses run into was a christophany and it’s that the Bible States unequivocally that no man can see
48:4148:41 - the father so every um interaction that Moses had with God was necessarily with some other member of the Trinity it
48:5248:52 - couldn’t be the father he could not have seen the father so having established that we we we are demonstrating now just
49:0449:04 - how this is a rich um Revelation so to speak of Jesus Christ before he actually came into the world this was a we get
49:1749:17 - pictures of what it would be like when he finally comes so for example in this very first instance we see a clear
49:2549:25 - demonstration of what his coming would actually be so the very first time that he meets with Moses who is going to be
49:3649:36 - the quintessential purveyor of the law and remember what happened when Jesus came he’s rejected especially by the
49:4649:46 - Pharisees and teachers of the law as someone who is sort of encouraging a Breaking of the law the very first time
49:5449:54 - that Moses has this interaction with God it is the Lord Jesus himself that he is speaking to and we will see eventually
50:0250:02 - that it is the Lord Jesus who gave him that law which was why later on when he says to the Pharisees and the teachers
50:0950:09 - of the law I am or the son of man is the lord of the Sabbath he was not just talking
50:1750:17 - and he was not just trying to be provocative he was telling them the absolute truth he had given them the law
50:2450:24 - of the Sabbath so when we take all of that together we should see just how great what it is
50:3250:32 - we’re talking about is this is the greater one of whom Hebrews were speaking the actual owner of the house
50:4150:41 - in which Moses had proved faithful this is him commissioning Moses for that work so we see then that’s even in this
50:5350:53 - capacity of course um there are those who will argue because when you go to Revelation you’ll see the angel who is
51:0051:00 - um speaking for the Lord Jesus and it seems as if it is the same Angel who is saying I Jesus have sent my angel to
51:0751:07 - such and such and it’s like well that’s that’s proof that when the fact that an angel is speaking does not mean that he
51:1451:14 - cannot speak as if he is God which is rubbish because that angel could not have been saying I Jesus have sent my
51:2051:20 - Angel and even if he was saying I Jesus have sent my angel it would have been a very interesting thing he actually said
51:2851:28 - I jesus sent an angel in this case we don’t see the angel saying anything of that sort but note that when first this
51:3651:36 - person in the burning bush is mentioned we hear that he is the Angel of the Lord after that it seems like nothing is said
51:4351:43 - anymore of him being the angel we hear God God God God throughout that passage and um uh when he does
51:5251:52 - speak when he does speak when we see him interacting with mes um he speaks okay so the fact that
52:0252:02 - he actually starts out the first thing that we hear about him being the angel of the Lord is actually pointing to
52:0752:07 - something because after that it’s doesn’t seem relevant anymore to mention that he is the messenger of the Lord but
52:1452:14 - the reason that’s the first introduction we get is to keep our eyes on the fact that this is not the father so to speak
52:2452:24 - and there is a reason for that remember man is supposed to be um cast out so to speak you’re not
52:3352:33 - allowed to have this interaction with the father but the father has not left you bereth he sends someone to come and
52:4152:41 - do this work of bringing his children back his children who have been thrown out of the house because of their bad
52:4852:48 - behavior and now this person is supposed to guide them back and this person is acting like a messenger of the Lord so
52:5552:55 - that is something that I think um will be front and center of every discussion that we see about the angel of the Lord
53:0453:04 - that even though he is truly God in his own right and that will continue to be the case every time we run into him we
53:1053:10 - will see that the the the the very first thing that we’re supposed to see every time we run into him is that he is
53:1853:18 - speaking for the father he is acting for the Father which is what creates a lot of the confusion that people run into
53:2353:23 - and why is that it will continue to be that his job is to bring God’s children back to him that’s also why In This Very
53:3353:33 - in this first instance the thing that we see is him in the burning bush that’s because that’s what he has
53:4353:43 - to do to bring the children of God back to the father yeah I mean it’s the message that he Bears you know we’ve
53:5153:51 - talked about this I think probably in just our previous lesson about how Jesus is coming as the agent or the
53:5953:59 - representative of the father that’s his mission that is how he appears to us he is not appearing on his own authority
54:0854:08 - but with the authority of the one who sent him and it gets confusing because he speaks with that Authority right is
54:1654:16 - Jesus the father no Jesus is not the father but he speaks for the father right they have perfect Unity of will
54:2254:22 - one of the other things that AI mentioned you know just as he was opening up here was that you know the
54:2854:28 - Bible obviously doesn’t make this argument that we’re making in so many words right as in look the angel of the
54:3454:34 - Lord is you know Yahweh the angel of the Lord is this it’s just there you know we we made this argument when we talked
54:4054:40 - about uh the Trinity as a general concept that the Bible doesn’t argue for it in what I would call
54:4854:48 - the the the manner of of philosophical deductive proofs right it’s simply there it’s simply asserted
54:5754:57 - and the Bible doesn’t set out to argue or Justified it’s just there um that is just so in this case as well um this
55:0855:08 - point that we’re making and why we’re emphasizing it and drilling on it by the way is because it is rather important
55:1455:14 - this idea of the son’s role even before the Incarnation I think really does go underappreciated by a lot of folks and
55:2255:22 - it is kind of a big deal in properly interpreting the roles of the trinity as they correspond to all of creation right
55:3055:30 - past present and future um so it’s not like minor but the reason why we’re setting this up in what I would term you
55:3755:37 - know like we’re arguing for it it’s because it’s useful theologically but it is right for us to point out that the
55:4355:43 - Bible itself actually doesn’t make the argument in quite so many words right um it is simply there and present in the
55:5255:52 - text and it is good and proper for us to be connecting these dots like I’m not trying to say we shouldn’t
55:5955:59 - but we just need to keep in mind what the Bible does and does not say right and so this this argument that we’re
56:0656:06 - making here about how all of these appearances of the Angel of the Lord are actually christophany appearances of the
56:1356:13 - pre-incarnate Jesus Christ it is a good thing for us to be focusing on and be justifying but in all the other passages
56:2156:21 - as we’ll see it’s just the same as this one the angel of the Lord through context is clearly associated
56:2956:29 - with God but that that’s not like the point of any of these things right um that’s just merely incidental to what
56:3856:38 - ends up happening um yeah yeah I mean we’ve already kind of been over this this concept you know we we we talked
56:4556:45 - about this a lot when we were talking about the Trinity just r large that it is important for us to note that the
56:5256:52 - Bible doesn’t argue for these things in the way that some people who want the very
56:5756:57 - uh like what I might call like full accounting of things you they want it all spelled out with bullet points
57:0257:02 - that’s not the kind of book that the Bible is that’s not to say that the Bible doesn’t give us truth that’s the
57:0757:07 - whole point of the Bible but it it doesn’t do it on our terms according to our preconceived notions of what it
57:1557:15 - ought to give us right um yeah it is perfect in the way that God has given it to us for his purpose for it but we
57:2357:23 - don’t get to find fault with him for you know it not being like a bullet point list of propositions you know that’s not
57:3157:31 - how it works um so we we we we can actually make our peace with the fact that if the Bible is asserting something
57:3957:39 - or just taking something for granted and not making an argument for it it it’s we are supposed to take it the same way if
57:4657:46 - we have any in credulity about it we should just wait until we actually stand before the Judgment seats of Christ
57:5157:51 - he’ll explain everything at that point but we shouldn’t be too worried if if things are not argued um as you have
58:0158:01 - said systematically breaking everything down Point by point and Rel because in the end in a lot of ways the Bible is
58:0858:08 - also a dictionary it states things categorically a lot of things is take them categorically take them or you
58:1558:15 - leave them so that’s the case in in many of the issues we’ll be dealing with including this particular one too yeah
58:2458:24 - yeah and we’ll see this as I say so just keep your eyes peeled as we go through the next uh several appearances of the
58:3158:31 - angel of Exodus um you know the angel of the Lord showing up in this Exodus narrative um that that’s not the focus
58:3858:38 - and that’s fine that’s what we’re trying to say here um but it is simply asserted it is there it’s present in the text but
58:4558:45 - it isn’t argued in so many words and that is something that is absolutely fine for us because it you know we can
58:5358:53 - make that connection even if we don’t put it the bullet points that might satisfy Skeptics because that’s not the
59:0059:00 - point of all this um so we won’t get more off topic there but this was us looking at this first appearance of
59:0859:08 - Christ to Moses in the burning bush and all of that foreshadows about the cross and you’ll see that theme uh come back
59:1559:15 - up as we go through the other passages here too Dr luging bill has done a very good job of tying all of these
59:2159:21 - appearances of the Angel even in some ways that I hadn’t connected myself before
59:2659:26 - to the work of Christ on the cross um the symbolism once you see it is quite powerful it really does Point directly
59:3459:34 - to the cross and what Christ did for us on it so you’ll see what I mean as we get to the other ones here in just a
59:4259:42 - sec so the next appearance here that we’re going to be talking about the angel of The Exodus here is in Exodus CH
59:5059:50 - 14 verse 19 where we are told that the angel of God the angel of the Lord right who had been going before the camp of
59:5959:59 - Israel moved and went behind them and the pillar of cloud moved before them and stood behind them with the angel of
01:00:0501:00:05 - the Lord right Angel of the Lord’s in the cloud pillar well that’s Exodus 14: 19 but previously last chapter in Exodus
01:00:1401:00:14 - Exodus chap 13: 211 we we are told that the Lord was going before them in a pillar of cloud by day to lead them the
01:00:2101:00:21 - way and a pillar of Fire by night to give them light that they might travel by day and by night okay so critical
01:00:2701:00:27 - thing again you’ll see small caps Lord here this is the tetr Graton this is Yahweh Jehovah the God of Abraham the
01:00:3401:00:34 - god of Isaac and the god of Jacob right in the same way that we saw that in Exodus chapter 3 with uh the being
01:00:4101:00:41 - speaking from the burning bush first being identified as the angel of the Lord and then as Yahweh proper so to
01:00:4801:00:48 - here I guess the orders flipped right in Exodus 13 we’re told that it’s the Lord and then in Exodus 14 we’re told that
01:00:5401:00:54 - it’s the angel of God right messenger of God right remember Angel just means Messenger right and so people get
01:01:0101:01:01 - tripped up because we use Angel as a label for a separate class of creatures that are not human um but angel in Greek
01:01:1001:01:10 - and Hebrew just means Messengers so we think of this as the messenger of God who had been going before them it’s not
01:01:1601:01:16 - an angel creature it is Jesus Christ in reincarnate St that’s what we have been arguing here so God himself is said to
01:01:2401:01:24 - be the one going ahead head of the Israelites in the column of cloud and fire that’s what Exodus 13: 211 says but
01:01:3101:01:31 - in Exodus 14:19 we see that that is the angel of God the messenger of God and so the Lord and the angel that is the
01:01:3901:01:39 - messenger are identified as one and the same and here’s where I mentioned that all of these tieback Dr lville has done
01:01:4801:01:48 - a good job tying back all the symbolism to the Cross we’re gonna spend a few minutes kind of digging deep into this
01:01:5501:01:55 - one to try to convince us that this really is true the symbolism is actually there it’s not fanciful um so when the
01:02:0301:02:03 - column of fire comes to stand over the place of the Ark in the Tabernacle where the blood representing Christ sacrifice
01:02:1201:02:12 - would be sprinkled on the day of atonement we there to have a picture of Christ saving work enduring judgment on
01:02:2001:02:20 - our behalf okay so again the idea here is that this foreshadows and symbol IES Christ payment for our sin so we’ll
01:02:2901:02:29 - start with Leviticus 16 because this is pretty easy just like on the last section we mentioned Leviticus 1 that
01:02:3601:02:36 - section of the law code dealing with burnt offerings well Leviticus 16 deals with the law of atonement and
01:02:4301:02:43 - specifically this idea of Aaron as the high priest or you know the high priest generally going into the most holy place
01:02:5101:02:51 - to make atonement for the people for their sin offering right right so uh verse 13 here in Leviticus chapter 16
01:03:0101:03:01 - says that all this stuff is dealing with the mercy seat on the uh the Arc of the testimony you’ll see that here that’s
01:03:1001:03:10 - verse 13 the Ark of the testimony right we’re talking about the Arc of the Covenant here where the law is um and so
01:03:1601:03:16 - there’s a lot of you know more things that go into it here but this is discussing about where this takes place
01:03:2401:03:24 - is obviously dealing with the Ark of the Covenant that’s placed in the most holy place in one of the specific tents that
01:03:3301:03:33 - were erected when the people of Israel made camp now when they were going through the Wilderness um you know going
01:03:4001:03:40 - from Egypt to Canaan well they had to carry everything with them they didn’t have a static place for uh the ark of
01:03:4801:03:48 - the covenant for God to quote unquote reside with them in fact um later on in the narrative in the Old Testament it’s
01:03:5601:03:56 - a really big deal when they make a kind of static permanent Temple for God because previously the Ark of the
01:04:0201:04:02 - Covenant had been traveling with them all this time kind of in a mobile fashion so I don’t want to get super off
01:04:0801:04:08 - topic the point here is that Leviticus chapter 16 is talking about blood sacrifice for atonement right which
01:04:1501:04:15 - should sound an awful lot like what Jesus did for us on the cross right okay so that’s Leviticus 16 the part of the
01:04:2101:04:21 - law code dealing with blood sacrifice for atonement and we said in verse 13 here we hear about the mercy seat on the
01:04:2801:04:28 - Ark of the Covenant right um so we know that that’s the location of this sacrifice that has all that symbolism
01:04:3601:04:36 - right and so if we compare that to Numbers chapter 9 verse 15 which here we say that the pillar of cloud and fire
01:04:4701:04:47 - that we’ve been talking about actually shows up it covers the Tabernacle the tent of testimony and the evening it was
01:04:5601:04:56 - like an appearance of fire over the Tabernacle until morning right remember we said fire has all sorts of symbolism
01:05:0201:05:02 - too so we have blood sacrifice going on in this tent and the pillar of fire over it representing what we’ve already
01:05:0901:05:09 - discussed well how do we know that these two things are happening at the same place that’s the question here so in
01:05:1701:05:17 - Numbers chapter 9 verse1 15 we see this socalled tent of testimony so what is the tent of testimony how do we know
01:05:2501:05:25 - that that’s where the Arc of the Covenant is right this is something that ichus just quotes here and he’s not
01:05:3101:05:31 - wrong as we’ll see I I’ll dig into it a little bit more just for our own benefit on the video because I wanted to trace
01:05:3701:05:37 - this a little bit just to make sure I understood properly how we know all of this well we are not the first people in
01:05:4401:05:44 - the world to ask this so this is a question on What’s called the hermeneutic stack exchange so
01:05:4901:05:49 - hermeneutics is kind of the study of interpretation and have you never been on stack exchange sites anymore people
01:05:5401:05:54 - ask questions and you get some answers so I don’t buy 100% of what this guy says in the answer but it was a good
01:06:0001:06:00 - starting place just to kind of show us here that um when this gets mentioned later in Revelation chapter 15 uh here’s
01:06:0801:06:08 - what the Greek looks like um well this thing that we’re talking about comes up again in the New Testament right the
01:06:1501:06:15 - Temple of the Tabernacle of testimony in heaven was open right I’m not going to go dig into the context there because I
01:06:2101:06:21 - don’t want us to get even more off topic than we’re inevitably going to be here but the point is is that this is kind of
01:06:2601:06:26 - a defined place in Scripture it has meaning it’s not just kind of like mentioned offand and so to really
01:06:3301:06:33 - establish how we know that what we’re talking about is where that sacrifice happens we’re going to go look at a
01:06:4001:06:40 - passage in Numbers chapter 17 here um so if you are familiar with Aaron’s Rod budding um uh and producing almonds uh
01:06:5101:06:51 - that’s verse eight here numb 17 ver8 well this story is interesting for lots of other reasons but specifically what
01:06:5801:06:58 - we’re going to be looking at is this idea of the location how can we line up that Pillar of Fire which represents the
01:07:0601:07:06 - presence of God over the place where the sacrifices of atonement were done right presence of God sacrifices of atonement
01:07:1401:07:14 - well that’s what Jesus did on the cross right that’s how we make the connection all right so you’ll see here in Numbers
01:07:2001:07:20 - chapter 17 we have this mentioned here you’ll deposit the staffs I’m so just a little bit of context they’re getting a
01:07:2801:07:28 - rod or a staff for each one of the father’s households 12 rods from all their leaders according to their
01:07:3401:07:34 - father’s households and Aaron’s name gets put on the rod of Levi so Moses is told to put these things in the tent of
01:07:4301:07:43 - meeting in front of the testimony um so we’ll Circle back to that when we look at a different translation again in a
01:07:5101:07:51 - second this is nasb 1995 version so uh pretty strict literal interpretation of this says the testimony there um and so
01:08:0001:08:00 - you can see that Moses went into the tent of the testimony aha that is the same place that we saw here in Numbers
01:08:0901:08:09 - Chapter n where we have the tent of testimony where the pillar of cloud and fire set to be right hovers over this
01:08:1801:08:18 - place and what we’re trying to do is make sure that that lines up with where the atonements happen in Leviticus
01:08:2401:08:24 - chapter 16 right that’s kind of the purpose of why we’re going through all this so Moses
01:08:3001:08:30 - deposits these things the staff in front of the testimony in the tent of testimony that’s what the context of
01:08:3901:08:39 - this passage in Numbers chapter 17 says and then Aaron’s Rod sprouts and put forth Buds and Blossoms and then later
01:08:4801:08:48 - on here we we read that Moses brought out all the rods from the presence of the Lord and they looked and each man
01:08:5401:08:54 - took his rod but God tells Moses put back the rod of Aaron before the testimony to be kept as
01:09:0201:09:02 - a sign of the rebels that you may put an end to their grumblings against me so that they may not die okay so the rod of
01:09:0801:09:08 - Aaron gets put back in this so-called tent of testimony so before we move on what
01:09:1601:09:16 - exactly does before the testimony mean like you’ll see this a here is a footnote um so if we look here that
01:09:2201:09:22 - shows up in verse four here as well right right in front of the testimony and so we get some cross references if I
01:09:2901:09:29 - look at this we’ll just go ahead and examine those real briefly here Oops I did not actually mean to go jump there
01:09:3701:09:37 - um because if I hover we can get it um so Exodus chapter 25 verse 16 says you should put in the arc the testimony that
01:09:4601:09:46 - I shall give you right what goes in the arc well the law tablets go in the ark right Exodus chap 25: 21 you should put
01:09:5401:09:54 - The Mercy Seat on the top of the Ark and in the arc you shall put the testimony that I give you now this is the nasb
01:10:0101:10:01 - 1995 version that’s the translation being used here and then verse 22 also talking about Above The Mercy Seat we
01:10:0901:10:09 - have the cherubim that are on the Ark of the testimony which you’ll also hear called the Ark of the Covenant right
01:10:1601:10:16 - I’ll speak with you about all of that given to the Commandment of Israel okay so with that going to point us towards
01:10:2401:10:24 - same Passage Numbers chapter 17 now we’re going to look at it in the New International Version which is a little
01:10:3001:10:30 - bit it’s not that it’s a loose translation but it tries to capture the meaning a little bit more rather than
01:10:3501:10:35 - just plugging in strict definition tries to makes it perhaps a little bit more thought forth thought versus word for
01:10:4101:10:41 - word not going to get into translation debates here but if we look at verse seven here in this particular
01:10:4901:10:49 - translations it says that the staffs that Moses was commanded to put back in this place were put in the tent of the
01:10:5601:10:56 - Covenant law the Covenant law goes in the Ark of the Covenant which as we were told before in Leviticus chapter 16 is
01:11:0601:11:06 - where the sacrifices of atonement are made right tracking so far okay so we see that this translation by
01:11:1601:11:16 - interpretation this is what we’re talking about here this testimony that gets mentioned in the nasb version is
01:11:2201:11:22 - talking about the Ark of the Covenant so the Ark of the Covenant is placed in the tent of
01:11:2801:11:28 - testimony so if you’re not always con if you’re not already convinced by all this going to look at one more passage here
01:11:3401:11:34 - and then I’ll get off my digression in Hebrews chapter 9 veres 3 to 4 we hear about the curtain um this is the chapter
01:11:4301:11:43 - where we hear about how Christ sacrifice was once for all as opposed to the yearly sacrifices of the high priest who
01:11:5001:11:50 - go into the most holy place to do their sacrifice of atonement well that’s kind of the point of Hebrews 9 uh and
01:11:5701:11:57 - following the the later verses of Hebrews chapter 9 contrast finality and efficacy of Christ’s single sacrifice
01:12:0301:12:03 - and contrast that with the repeated sacrifice of the high priests but in verses 3 to four we see that behind the
01:12:0901:12:09 - second curtain we have the room called the most holy Place what’s in the most holy Place well we have the golden altar
01:12:1601:12:16 - of incense and the gold covered Arc of the Covenant this art contained the gold jars of mana and look it contains
01:12:2301:12:23 - Aaron’s staff that had budded and in Numbers chapter 17 verse 10 God tells Moses to stick the rod back in the tent
01:12:3301:12:33 - of testimony which is why we know that because of this verse here in Hebrews chapter 9 that’s why we know that the
01:12:4101:12:41 - Ark of the Covenant must have been in the tent of testimony because that’s where the rod is said to be and the
01:12:4601:12:46 - staff is said to be in the Ark of the Covenant along with the stone tablet of the law QED basically so I’m sorry that
01:12:5301:12:53 - was a bit of a digression but why I’m saying all of this is because that’s why when Dr Lugano lines up the presence of
01:13:0101:13:01 - God with the altar on the Ark of the Covenant where the sacrifices of atonement are that’s why when you marry
01:13:0901:13:09 - these Concepts we get a picture of Christ’s saving work enduring judgment on our behalf and paying that price of
01:13:1701:13:17 - atonement so I hope that wasn’t too Technical and we didn’t get too far off in the weeds but I just wanted to trace
01:13:2301:13:23 - out a little bit because it’s really cool when you see the links it’s it’s there I mean we’re not just making
01:13:2901:13:29 - things up it’s there in scripture but we had to do a little bit of digging to put all that together to see that this
01:13:3601:13:36 - really is the place where those sacrifices of atonement were made and that is where the presence of God rests
01:13:4301:13:43 - and it doesn’t rest over this specific tent for no reason it rests there because that is conceptually where the
01:13:5101:13:51 - presence of God is and that is where the atonement is done well when you put those two things together you see
01:13:5801:13:58 - that God is the one who pays for the atonement right um so uh AI you have anything you want to
01:14:0801:14:08 - go here I know I got a little bit sidetracked but um was rich I mean seriously what what
01:14:1501:14:15 - you went into was um a very good expansion of what he discussed here I’m not sure I’m not sure what I could add
01:14:2401:14:24 - to sorry so reviewing the main point of this slide that interesting tangent aside was actually talking just about
01:14:3201:14:32 - what we talked about before how the angel who’s said to go before them is basically said to be God right which
01:14:3901:14:39 - means has to be christophany I mean which is I’m not saying that point isn’t interesting but uh it was the figuring
01:14:4701:14:47 - out exactly how we TI all the other things together was what caught my attention here but the fundamental Point
01:14:5201:14:52 - here is that the column of cloud and fire that’s mentioned all throughout the Exodus narrative that leads the
01:14:5901:14:59 - Israelites that is the Angel of the Lord that’s what Exodus 14 say but it’s also said to be the Lord Yahweh Jehovah tetr
01:15:0701:15:07 - Graton in Exodus chapter 13 basically meaning that they’re one and the same so God leads his people
01:15:1501:15:15 - personally right Jesus Christ sent on behalf of the father to guide his people it’s a christophy
01:15:2301:15:23 - um yeah yeah yeah um I I honestly don’t know what I could add to that suffice to say that it’s it’s well tied together
01:15:3401:15:34 - Exodus 13:21 told us who was in the cloud the column of cloud and fire Exodus 14: 19 tells us who was so one
01:15:4201:15:42 - could if if people want to argue that God was with an Angel just as he was when he went to visit Abraham they
01:15:5101:15:51 - welcome to argue that but I think that we have more than enough reason to identify that angel with the Lord
01:15:5901:15:59 - himself especially because of how the angel talks he doesn’t talk like most pretty much any other angel that you you
01:16:0801:16:08 - would have read in the scriptures anywhere else no angel who has come to speak for the Lord tends to identify
01:16:1601:16:16 - himself with the Lord they don’t do that so um that is one thing that’s definite but again and again
01:16:2501:16:25 - it the the the particularly amazing thing and that’s one of the reasons I really love the foray that um Steven
01:16:3401:16:34 - went into right here the amazing thing about um this identification of the Angel and the the
01:16:4301:16:43 - various ways in which he appears to Moses and to the Israelites with the um cross is especially when you start
01:16:5301:16:53 - working through the Hebrew series that Prof Robert is wrri is writing right now it’s very significant because all of
01:17:0001:17:00 - these things are things that should have told Israel especially when the Lord Jesus came this is the same person the
01:17:0901:17:09 - the the the pillar of cloud and fire was speaking to the Judgment of the cross the um the Burning Bush was speaking to
01:17:1901:17:19 - the Judgment of the Cross and all of this somehow in Exodus 14 the law had not yet been given we can see that by
01:17:2801:17:28 - Exodus 20 it is given so you we we see that even preceding this whole business of you’re going to be performing these
01:17:3701:17:37 - sacrifices you’ll have a pruit of this sort you will have um uh so many uh uh regulations you’re supposed to keep to
01:17:4801:17:48 - dietary requirements and whatnot all of that actually follows these symbols of of the Cross which seems I mean that’s
01:17:5801:17:58 - why it is actually incredible that Jesus had the opposition that he had when he came because it’s
01:18:0601:18:06 - like how Beyond actually spelling it out for you saying that at such and such a time in history I will come and die on a
01:18:1501:18:15 - cross Beyond doing that as in if if we if we were to say okay if he does not SP it out literally
01:18:2501:18:25 - in those ways what other way could he have told them that this was what was going to happen right so we see it over
01:18:3201:18:32 - and over again in these symbols the way that this Angel of the Lord showed up and again and again we see that the
01:18:3901:18:39 - angel of the Lord accepted the role of a messenger that’s why he he continues to be called The Angel the angel even
01:18:4701:18:47 - though he’s identified with the Lord which is the same thing that happened with Jesus Christ much later he never
01:18:5201:18:52 - denied that he was God but he did not claim that position either you know so everything that that that was happening
01:19:0001:19:00 - when he came when we say he never claimed it it doesn’t mean that he was like um being humble or anything it was
01:19:0801:19:08 - more like he didn’t just like the angel of the Lord did not put that in the face of of Moses or in the face of the
01:19:1401:19:14 - Israelites he was God but he was pointing to the father more than he was pointing to himself that’s what Jesus
01:19:2201:19:22 - also did when he came so in for us who who are seeing these things we might not need to be told that this was the Lord
01:19:3101:19:31 - Jesus so it’s less about actually being persuaded that the angel of the Lord the angel of God as we saw as we seeing in
01:19:3901:19:39 - Exodus was Jesus Christ but we can see in all of these discussions how this was speaking to what Jesus would do
01:19:4901:19:49 - later on in history and what it has to do with our reconciliation to the father we we we should see also how none of
01:19:5801:19:58 - this was an accident the Lord was not reacting to anything all of this was planned and carried out by the Lord from
01:20:0601:20:06 - start to finish that we would sin that we would be redeemed that we will be brought into this eternal glory with um
01:20:1501:20:15 - the father in the end because of the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus this has been front and center and you’ll see
01:20:2101:20:21 - throughout the discussion of the Trinity that’s actually one sorry theology that’s actually one reason that whenever
01:20:2601:20:26 - I think about writing uh um a Systematic Theology of my own when I think about writing theology I don’t know any way to
01:20:3401:20:34 - represent the thing as well as profor Robert has done it or even better I can’t think of any way because the way
01:20:3901:20:39 - that he structured that teaching was to focus on the cross that this was this is the Lynch pin of God’s plan that
01:20:4701:20:47 - ultimately everything creation is possible because Jesus will die on the cross and we see that front and center
01:20:5401:20:54 - as weing talking about the revelation of God in the Old Testament especially through the angel of God the angel of
01:21:0201:21:02 - the Lord as we keep seeing him showing up signs symbols of the Cross are coming they’re coming along with that um um
01:21:1001:21:10 - revelation of himself at that point so for us again like I said we it might bore us so to speak to be uh having
01:21:2001:21:20 - these arguments laid out for why the angel of the Lord was God himself but I think that we should be particular
01:21:2801:21:28 - about noticing too how in each of these instances the angel of the Lord is showing us how the cross is a big part
01:21:3801:21:38 - of the plan that the Lord not the big part it is the entirety of God’s plan we see that even before the law is given
01:21:4601:21:46 - the law on which the the Pharisees were claiming to stand to eventually crucify their own God
01:21:5501:21:55 - yeah now we should be a bit fair to point out this concept of progressive revelation really helps us right we have
01:22:0301:22:03 - hindsight um and that makes a lot of difference right because all of this is illuminated most helpfully by the New
01:22:1101:22:11 - Testament um absolutely and so if you wonder you know why didn’t they see it um it’s not so shockingly blindingly
01:22:1901:22:19 - obvious that I mean I certainly think wise people in the past read this and had
01:22:2601:22:26 - questions that is likely right but how do they answer them you know and this is why it always comes down to a matter of
01:22:3501:22:35 - faith God gives us the information we need in our circumstances to put our trust in him right um so I’ve often
01:22:4201:22:42 - thought that some of what we’re talking about here is perhaps some of what Jesus said on the road to Emmas right they ask
01:22:4901:22:49 - about the scriptures that speak of him Exodus chapter 3 is a great example right the burning bush burning yet not
01:22:5701:22:57 - consumed you know um Jesus also you know pre prefigured his death and payment for sin upon the cross he told people this
01:23:0401:23:04 - now people didn’t understand it until afterwards but I mean it’s all there um now yeah one reason that I personally
01:23:1501:23:15 - don’t cut the Pharisees any slack I mean I do agree with you that largely a lot of these things were hidden from view it
01:23:2301:23:23 - was only after the cross that they became brilliantly obvious is that someone like
01:23:2901:23:29 - David knew it he might not have known exactly how Jesus would pay the price he might not have fully understood just
01:23:3701:23:37 - like a lot the truth of this is that how what would happen at the coming of the Messiah was hidden from view but in Isa
01:23:4501:23:45 - in in Psalm 51 what does um David say that God does not take the light in burnt offerings that he wants a broken
01:23:5501:23:55 - heart a contrite spirit so we see that even even Believers such as he recognized that the law was really
01:24:0401:24:04 - pointing to something else it’s not that God wants these sacrifices it’s not that he wants someone who is very meticulous
01:24:1001:24:10 - about keeping the law it’s someone who understands his need for salvation that’s going to be paid for by another
01:24:1701:24:17 - person so even though in many ways the cross was not an obvious fact before before it happened they did not
01:24:2601:24:26 - understand the truth of it they didn’t understand much of what the Messiah would do but we’ve talked about for
01:24:3201:24:32 - example Genesis chapter 3 where again we can see that the Lord was being a bit cryptic when he said that
01:24:4301:24:43 - the serpent would bruise the heel of the seed of the woman but the seed of the woman would crush his head maybe that
01:24:5101:24:51 - sounds like a proverb an idiom or whatever it’s not it’s not very straightforward we we don’t get much
01:24:5701:24:57 - about the cross out of that but then following upon that there was the provision of the coats of skin and not
01:25:0401:25:04 - only that not too long after that we have this issue of Cain and Abel with Abel clearly understanding precisely
01:25:1201:25:12 - what was expected of him and Cain acting as if it made no difference what God has said to his parents so it’s not as if
01:25:2101:25:21 - this was so completely obscure that those who kind kind of understood it where Geniuses of some sort the Lord did
01:25:2901:25:29 - make sure that the Brilliance of the light of this truth was not hidden it might the very details of it how the the
01:25:3701:25:37 - the Son of God the the the Messiah would pay the price how he would redeem um the the world might not be clear in its
01:25:4601:25:46 - details but life was going to be given for life that much was known it was known by Adam and Eve by Abel by no
01:25:5501:25:55 - by everybody who performed the sacrifice and it was enshrined in the law but here is the the thing that actually struck me
01:26:0101:26:01 - I’d never thought about it until we actually started having this conversation that from the beginning of
01:26:0701:26:07 - the revelation of himself to Moses the very start of it symbols of the Cross attended every part of it so that seemed
01:26:1501:26:15 - to be saying yes I’m going to give you a look but don’t miss the points yeah I mean and also I just want to make
01:26:2301:26:23 - emphasize that we modern folks we forget the absolute visceral physical connection to blood sacrifice it doesn’t
01:26:3301:26:33 - hit us you know we understand intellectually you know animals were sacrificed as symbols but we have never
01:26:4101:26:41 - held a knife and taken the life of another living being in such a conscious way right or had a priest do it on our
01:26:5001:26:50 - behalf yeah I mean and I’m not you know obviously this was done for a purpose right God didn’t you know as that that
01:26:5901:26:59 - Psalm that AI read it’s not like God just wanted us to kill animals right like that is not the point here the
01:27:0601:27:06 - point is what that symbolism was but it would hit a lot harder if we actually understood this is what they did you
01:27:1501:27:15 - know I don’t think that as a person who is conscientious enough to want to follow the law that you bring a
01:27:2201:27:22 - sacrifice one does not go through the motions when you’re taking the life of another living being I’m sure some
01:27:2801:27:28 - people did obviously the Pharisees did but for people who had even the barest amount of care for why would God ever
01:27:3801:27:38 - instruct us to do this it’s right there exactly right um yeah one other thing I want to bring up
01:27:4401:27:44 - in this um this is G be sound like kind of I’m just changing the subject randomly but um I don’t want to forget
01:27:5001:27:50 - that’s why I want to bring it up um so when we talk about angels as a title Jesus is a messenger of God um so when
01:27:5901:27:59 - we hear the angel of the Lord think in your head the messenger of God is a title um I was I’m always so amused when
01:28:0801:28:08 - little kids think that Jesus’s last name is Christ have you ever come across this you know in Greek it’s Yus Christos
01:28:1601:28:16 - right that’s what we hear we hear Jesus Christ Jesus Christ Jesus Christ now we don’t know exactly I don’t know if their
01:28:2301:28:23 - names in Hebrew society were patronymic um I could probably go look that up but you know he would be Jesus the son of
01:28:2901:28:29 - Joseph right Joseph and Mary yeah exactly that’s what he would know or you know Jesus the one from
01:28:3601:28:36 - Nazareth right um butus Christos kristos is a title um and we forget this you know we refer to him
01:28:4401:28:44 - by title as Christ Christ did that Christ did this you know um but it’s not a last name um and so we are very
01:28:5201:28:52 - comfortable saying Jes Jesus Christ this Jesus Christ that and when we say Jesus Christ really what we are saying is
01:28:5901:28:59 - Jesus the Messiah Jesus the Messiah that’s what Christ means um yes pretty much we have we have Jesus the Messiah
01:29:0601:29:06 - and we also have the messenger of God see what I’m saying it’s the same prely um it is not different here we have the
01:29:1601:29:16 - messenger of God is just a title no more no less and that is a title that Jesus Christ bears in the same way that he
01:29:2201:29:22 - Bears the title ch Messiah um yeah so I I just I hadn’t really it hadn’t hit me before but I
01:29:3001:29:30 - think it’s really parallel because we don’t get to make great hay out of Christ it’s just a title it just
01:29:3701:29:37 - represents who Jesus is in the same way angas in Greek here or Malak in Hebrew it’s just a title it just is
01:29:4601:29:46 - saying The Messer you know definite article of God it’s what he does it’s talking about who he is and what he does
01:29:5401:29:54 - um and so we shouldn’t make it more complicated than that it’s what it is um yeah yeah true all right well we far
01:30:0301:30:03 - fared fared we went kind of far a field here um but this is just it’s a very good poignant discussion for us of how
01:30:1201:30:12 - all of this points to the cross in the future um like Audi said I hadn’t actually in the same way I hadn’t really
01:30:2101:30:21 - connected all the dots and been wow from the very beginning when God speaks to Moses as AI says cross is in view the
01:30:2801:30:28 - whole time every step of the way um I really put that together before but it just CHS that this was always the plan
01:30:3801:30:38 - we’ve been over this before too right um the cross was always the plan it was there from day one Genesis chapter 3
01:30:4501:30:45 - like we’ve talked about um Believers throughout all history look towards this with Faith and only in that revealing of
01:30:5201:30:52 - the plan did everything become clear to us right um the mystery was revealed and we are blessed to be able to understand
01:31:0001:31:00 - it um so yeah well that’s the second one here we have a couple more to go speaking of
01:31:0901:31:09 - appearances of the Angel of the Lord here in this Exodus narrative pointing us not only to the angel of the Lord
01:31:1701:31:17 - being God but also this Angel of the Lord being Christ crucified um so we look at a couple more examples when we
01:31:2601:31:26 - pick up so the next topic that we’re going to talk about with respect to the angel of
01:31:3501:31:35 - the Lord in Exodus so the angel of The Exodus and we’re just kind of using that as a title for the being who guided the
01:31:4301:31:43 - people of Israel um out of their flight from Egypt to Canaan uh and they wandering in the wilderness for all
01:31:4901:31:49 - those years uh so we are going to be talking here about the Angel sent who is said to be sent before the Israelites to
01:31:5701:31:57 - guard them on the way in their travels and so as part of the giving of the law to Moses on Mount Si and this uh at
01:32:0601:32:06 - least this particular thing we’re going to read comes from Exodus chapter 23 verses 20 to 23 um and this is the being
01:32:1601:32:16 - who is speaking to Moses in this particular uh place in Exodus so during the giving of the law that being says I
01:32:2401:32:24 - am going to send an angel before you to guard you on the way and bring you into the place which I have prepared be on
01:32:3101:32:31 - your guard before him and obey his voice do not be rebellious towards him for he will not pardon your transgression since
01:32:3801:32:38 - my name is in him but if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an
01:32:4401:32:44 - adversary to your adversaries for my angel will go before you and bring you into the land of the amorites the
01:32:5101:32:51 - Hittites the perizzites the Canaanites the h ites and the jebusites and I will completely destroy them all right so the
01:32:5901:32:59 - thing that complicates the interpretation here is we’ve already argued um in something we talked about
01:33:0501:33:05 - in the past uh you know I know we’re a couple weeks separated now since we’re recording these in chunks but um these
01:33:1101:33:11 - verses here that talks about how the law was given through angels and we talk about not like Angels plural as in
01:33:1801:33:18 - creature Angels but we argued that all of these verses so Galatians chapter 3: 19 Hebrews chapter 2: 2 the word spoken
01:33:2601:33:26 - through Angels acts 7: 38 uh which talks about um together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Si this one’s
01:33:3601:33:36 - real CA it’s Angel singular acts 7:38 and then acts 7:53 you know the law is ordained by Angels um so the being that
01:33:4601:33:46 - we mentioned who is speaking in Exodus chap 23 is said to be a messenger um and so the complic bit here is that Jesus in
01:33:5601:33:56 - his christophany which is what we’re arguing is happening in this passage here in the giving of the law is saying
01:34:0401:34:04 - that an angel is going to be sent before the Israelites and he says that he’s going to send that angel now the thing
01:34:1001:34:10 - that complicates this and why I think a lot of people tend to think that the father was the one uh you know present
01:34:1801:34:18 - during the given of the law is that Jesus is here speaking as a representative of the father and so if
01:34:2401:34:24 - you if you think yourself into knots here you’ll say well how is Jesus going to send himself because it’s obvious
01:34:3201:34:32 - that the Angel that’s being sent before them is Jesus right he is the christophany the messenger the one who
01:34:3901:34:39 - is protecting them in the pillar of cloud and fire like we just talked about so Jesus is saying he’s going to send an
01:34:4501:34:45 - angel before them to guard them but he is that angel um but the reason why we know that how all this works is because
01:34:5401:34:54 - you can see that the the person being sent is said to have my name in him um so we know that the the being speaking
01:35:0201:35:02 - what we mean by this name is we know that the the members of the Trinity share an Essence and so when the person
01:35:0901:35:09 - speaking in Exodus chapter 23 here says that my name is in him I.E the person who is going to be sent that’s a clear
01:35:1601:35:16 - indication that that being that’s going to be sent is God that’s it’s kind of what we’re to take this to mean
01:35:2401:35:24 - but we already know that it is said that the person speaking here during the giving of the law is the Lord like tetr
01:35:3101:35:31 - Gaton is used in Hebrew uh it is definitely God himself but then we have all these passages that we just
01:35:3901:35:39 - mentioned here you know like that acts 7381 who was the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Si so was it God or was
01:35:4501:35:45 - it an angel the only way to reconcile it is that it was a messenger of God but it was the messenger of God and so
01:35:5401:35:54 - we should not be troubled by the fact that Jesus is speaking here the words from the father are given to him to tell
01:36:0201:36:02 - to Moses here and that the one who he is saying is going to be sent to guard the Israelites is him he is the Angel of the
01:36:1201:36:12 - Lord um and so he is serving as the messenger and if you want to think about it like this in human history when kings
01:36:2001:36:20 - sent you know important documents to other kingdoms for war treaties or trade agreements or whatever those people
01:36:2801:36:28 - basically spoke on the authority of the king they had the king’s words and that is the sense uh with which we need to
01:36:3501:36:35 - take this particular topic of Jesus in a christophany in the giving of the law saying that the angel of the Lord will
01:36:4301:36:43 - be sent to guard the Israelites on their way there is no contradiction in that and we’ve talked about some of the
01:36:5001:36:50 - nonsensical uh things that people who try to rle out the Trinity do like so for example in the baptism of Jesus they
01:36:5701:36:57 - would say that you know uh the father uh you know was baptizing the father and the spirit descended on the father and
01:37:0401:37:04 - they’re all the father it just doesn’t make sense conceptually the way in which this is not that is that we are talking
01:37:1301:37:13 - about the words that were given to the messenger who then gave them to Moses um it’s a different situation um so I’m not
01:37:2101:37:21 - going to spend too much time on that maybe we’ll disc discuss that a bit as we go here um but the point here uh
01:37:2701:37:27 - vises the angel of The Exodus is that this Angel of the Lord was sent to guard them on the way he’s going to send the
01:37:3701:37:37 - angel before the Israelites to lead and guard them and this is in exactly the manner that Christ is sent by the father
01:37:4301:37:43 - um he is the visible person of the Trinity to us when we operate in the world and so Moses is also here told
01:37:5001:37:50 - that they are supposed to obey the angel because my name is is in him I I mentioned that that is a clear reference
01:37:5701:37:57 - to deity that’s what that phrasing means um and we’re going to actually look at another passage here uh in Revelation
01:38:0401:38:04 - chapter 19 that will strengthen this connection that we know this is Jesus Christ and so this is when Christ
01:38:1001:38:10 - Returns the second coming the end of the tribulation when he comes to destroy the armies of the Antichrist at Armageddon
01:38:1801:38:18 - um so picking up at verse 11 so Revelation 19: 11 and following say and I saw heaven opened and behold a white
01:38:2601:38:26 - horse and he who sat on it is called faithful and true and in righteousness he judges and wages War his eyes are a
01:38:3201:38:32 - flame of fire and on his head are many diadems and he has a name written on him which no one knows except himself so
01:38:4101:38:41 - notice the name written on him right um verse 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in Blood and his name is called
01:38:4801:38:48 - the word of God you know name again uh this is obviously speaking of Jesus Christ and the armies which are in
01:38:5501:38:55 - heaven clothed in fine linen white and clean were following him on white horses from his mouth comes a sharp sword so
01:39:0201:39:02 - that with it he may strike down the Nations and he will rule them with a rod of iron and he Treads The Wine Press of
01:39:0801:39:08 - the fierce wrath of God the almighty and on his robe and on his thigh he has a name written king of kings and Lord of
01:39:1601:39:16 - lords so again verse 12 he has a name written on him which no one knows except himself himself as God and then verse 16
01:39:2401:39:24 - he has a name on his thigh written king of kings and Lord of lords and so if we go back and we look at this passage that
01:39:3201:39:32 - we were looking at in Exodus chapter 23 this idea of the name of God being in the angel of the Lord it is very
01:39:4201:39:42 - parallel to this passage in Revelation chapter 19 this is Jesus Christ we’re talking about here in other words it is
01:39:4801:39:48 - a christophy so that’s this idea and of course the angel being sent to guard
01:39:5401:39:54 - them on the way is the angel in the pillar of cloud and fire it’s not like there’s two of them it’s just this is An
01:40:0001:40:00 - Occurrence uh in Exodus chapter 23 where we hear another mention of this person who is sent with the Israelites you know
01:40:0801:40:08 - another way in which it stated that this Angel Of The Exodus as we’re calling him was sent to guide and protect them that
01:40:1501:40:15 - just shows up here in this passage in Exodus 23 so Audie do you have anything you want to say uh I think the hardest
01:40:2101:40:21 - part of all this is is kind of making sense of Jesus speaking to Moses about sending the angel of the Lord if we’re
01:40:2801:40:28 - saying that the angel of the Lord is Jesus in both places well how do we think about that um you might be able to
01:40:3301:40:33 - explain it better than I did I’m pretty sure that there is no better explanation than that it’s
01:40:3901:40:39 - precisely what you said he was speaking for the father as a messenger and uh um speaking of himself you know so we have
01:40:5101:40:51 - to understand that even if did not say thus says the Lord and so on and so forth even in his appearances he was not
01:40:5801:40:58 - really appearing as a second member of the Trinity he was appearing as the father so to speak that is the people
01:41:0501:41:05 - who were interacting with him were supposed to be interacting with God right so it wasn’t for his own sake that
01:41:1501:41:15 - he was interacting with Moses and all the others he was doing that on behalf of the father so he was speaking on
01:41:2201:41:22 - behalf of the father and therefore the words he was speaking to Moses at that time they pertained to himself but they
01:41:3001:41:30 - were really the father’s words this is a position he takes even when he comes um In the Flesh he keeps saying the words I
01:41:3901:41:39 - speak to you and they’re not my words I’m speaking to you what I heard from the father stuff like that he’s
01:41:4501:41:45 - maintained that same attitude throughout his uh engagement with um Humanity from the beginning until now
01:41:5601:41:56 - so that’s really the it shouldn’t be a conundrum for anybody but if anybody struggles with it that’s the answer it’s
01:42:0601:42:06 - it’s not at all as you said it’s not at all like uh the situation where um uh God sent himself and and also spoke to
01:42:1601:42:16 - himself from the earth is like there’s a bit Insanity for the people who are doing these things it doesn’t apply here
01:42:2301:42:23 - M yeah I think another thing that could help is when we understand that God is Trinity then it’s accurate to say God
01:42:3101:42:31 - did this and God did that and God did that for actions of all three of them right and in particular when we talk
01:42:3701:42:37 - about his name the tetragrammaton is shared between all of them it gets at that Divine existence
01:42:4401:42:44 - that is part of the essence of God that we talked about in our past studies you know the essence and nature of God those
01:42:5001:42:50 - come from the shared Essence three persons one Essence that Essence is tied up in the Divine name and so when we
01:42:5901:42:59 - have members of the Trinity and we say um God told Moses in Exodus 23 that he was going to send God to guide the
01:43:1001:43:10 - Israelites do you see how when we think of it in terms of the Trinity that maybe makes a little more sense right it do it
01:43:1701:43:17 - does because you know that is an accurate statement and because we repeat the same being
01:43:2501:43:25 - there you know like I don’t know if that helps at all I’m I just think maybe that’s a useful concept for us thinking
01:43:3001:43:30 - about talking about it um that is precisely the point once you take the Trinity out of the explanation the whole
01:43:3801:43:38 - thing becomes either insane or just um not outlandish what’s the word that I would use it has now left the realm of
01:43:4901:43:49 - trying to make sense and now we’re in the realm of mysticism where it is possible Right In in this case if we are
01:43:5701:43:57 - going to make sense of the fact that one person is saying that he will send a messenger who has his
01:44:0801:44:08 - Essence now we if once you remove the Trinity from that discussion now what we’re talking about essentially is that
01:44:1601:44:16 - a schizophrenic person is actually it’s it’s it’s a mad situation it’s like you’re splitting into multiple
01:44:2301:44:23 - personalities that’s what’s happening but with the Trinity it makes sense Jesus can speak for the father about
01:44:3001:44:30 - himself that’s it yep yep I really don’t think it’s more complicated than that and I don’t think we need to jump on
01:44:3801:44:38 - people for kind of squinting at it and being like that’s hard to understand it is a bit hard to understand um it’s it’s
01:44:4601:44:46 - this is where the Triune nature of the Trinity and the three persons one Essence bit when we plug that in to the
01:44:5601:44:56 - the what we shall call the characters here right the one talking to Moses in Exodus chapter 23 and the one who is
01:45:0201:45:02 - sent before the Israelites well in both cases it is God a member of the Trinity who is involved and so happens is the
01:45:1001:45:10 - same member here but because they share that will in essence the the words that are given to Jesus Christ to say to
01:45:2001:45:20 - Moses come positionally from the father father and so that’s why it’s really not it’s not a contradiction uh it’s not
01:45:2701:45:27 - something that we should get uh uh you know troubled by we just need to understand that this is how the Trinity
01:45:3401:45:34 - Works in its operations with Jesus as the messenger of the father not just speaking words the father gives him but
01:45:4101:45:41 - basically speaking as the father right he is god um and so you know it it it stretches our brain a little bit but
01:45:5001:45:50 - that doesn’t necessarily mean that there’s anything wrong with that’s what I’m trying to emphasize um yeah yeah
01:45:5901:45:59 - agreed so next uh in this sequence of the appearances of the Angel of the Exodus we’re going to be talking about
01:46:0701:46:07 - the one who Moses among other people knew and spoke to face to face so uh we have been told previously in the study
01:46:1501:46:15 - that no one has ever seen the father while on this Earth so I’m just going to briefly reread a couple of those verses
01:46:2001:46:20 - we have 1 Timothy 6:16 that says uh who you know this is talking about the father you know in
01:46:2801:46:28 - context whom no one has seen or can see um talking about the father there um John
01:46:3601:46:36 - 1818 uh no one has ever seen God meaning the father but the one and only son who is himself God and is in closest
01:46:4501:46:45 - relationship with the father has made him known so in both of these we’re talking about the father we’ve already
01:46:5101:46:51 - made this point previously in our studies here here but we are told that you know despite this fact that no one’s
01:46:5701:46:57 - ever seen the father we’re told that the elders saw the god of Israel in the company with Moses and Aaron so there’s
01:47:0401:47:04 - this passage in Exodus chapter 24 where you know they’re eating with the Elders of Israel so Moses went up with Aaron
01:47:1101:47:11 - naab and abaho and 70 of the Elders of Israel and they saw the god of Israel and under his feet there appeared to be
01:47:1701:47:17 - a pavement of sapphire as clear as the sky itself yet he did not stretch out his hand against the Nobles of the sons
01:47:2301:47:23 - of Israel and they saw God and they ate and drank so well can’t be the father right that’s what we just said so when
01:47:3201:47:32 - we’re talking about them seeing the god of Israel and we understand that the spirit is the Unseen member of the
01:47:3801:47:38 - Trinity that is his characteristic um well by process of elimination has to be Jesus Christ a
01:47:4501:47:45 - pre-incarnate Jesus Christ as in a christophy so that’s Exodus 24: 9 through1 that we just read and we also
01:47:5201:47:52 - know that Moses entered a Cloud of Glory and spoke with the Lord on SI you know we we’re just in Exodus chapter 23 um
01:47:5901:47:59 - Exodus chap 24 verses 16- 18 says that the glory of the Lord rested on Mount Si and a cloud covered it for six days and
01:48:0801:48:08 - on the seventh day he called to Moses from the midst of the cloud and to the eyes of the sons of Israel the
01:48:1401:48:14 - appearance of the glory of the Lord was like a consuming fire on the Mountaintop Moses entered the midst of the cloud as
01:48:2201:48:22 - he went up to the mountain and Moses was on the mountain for 40 days and 40 nights so Moses went into the midst of
01:48:2701:48:27 - the cloud where you know the glory of the Lord was and so he saw the glory of the Lord because he went inside the
01:48:3401:48:34 - cloud again can’t be the father because no one can see the father uh according to those verses we read and then uh you
01:48:4201:48:42 - know Moses actually further petitioned God here to show him his glory we we see that in Exodus 33 um you know uh so I’ll
01:48:5301:48:53 - read that Exodus 33: 18-23 then Moses said I pray you show me your glory and he uh being the Lord here
01:49:0301:49:03 - said I myself will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim the name of the Lord before you and I will
01:49:0901:49:09 - be gracious to whom I will be gracious and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion but he said you cannot
01:49:1501:49:15 - see my face for no man can see me and live then the Lord said behold there’s a place by me and you shall stand there on
01:49:2101:49:21 - the Rock and it will come about while my glory is passing by that I will put you in the Clift of The Rock and cover you
01:49:2601:49:26 - with my hand until I have passed by then I will take my hand away and you shall see my back but my face shall not be
01:49:3201:49:32 - seen um so complexity here is well who’s being talked about right we know that on Sinai it’s a christophany but when he
01:49:4201:49:42 - talks about no one can see my face and live while are we talking about the christophany um we’ll kind of pull back
01:49:4701:49:47 - to that may let aie take a crack at it when we get to it as well but the point here is that we know from New Testament
01:49:5501:49:55 - passages that it cannot be the father um because the Bible is very clear that when we talk of uh appearances of God in
01:50:0501:50:05 - the Old Testament we talk of who is seeing the Lord then the Bible says itself like first John here that no one
01:50:1201:50:12 - has ever seen the father except for the son John 1118 um so we just we have to interpret in light of that uh that
01:50:2101:50:21 - progressive revelation that we have in the New Testament is the only way we can take it because that’s right there in
01:50:2601:50:26 - the Bible so we also have here in numbers 12:8 um where uh you know we said to speak mouth to- mouth openly not
01:50:3701:50:37 - in dark sayings and he beholds form of the Lord why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant against Moses
01:50:4401:50:44 - so Moses is said to behold the form of the Lord again compare those verses that we were uh writing there the Lord speaks
01:50:5201:50:52 - to him M to mouth he speaks openly with him um directly we would say and then uh even clearer we have the
01:51:0101:51:01 - the idiom here face to face you know that’s an presumably an idiom in Hebrew as well um as in English here uh so
01:51:0801:51:08 - since that time uh no Prophet has risen in Israel like Moses whom the Lord knew face to face so Moses knew God face to
01:51:1801:51:18 - face again despite these passages we talked about with 1 Timothy 6 16 John 1:18 and others talking about no one can
01:51:2501:51:25 - see the father well all of this points to that these occurrences that we’re talking about are once again the angel
01:51:3301:51:33 - of the Lord not the actual presence of the father but the appearance of the one who is sent by him speaks for him and
01:51:4001:51:40 - who has undertaken to fulfill his Plan of Salvation in this world and that person is our Lord and Savior Jesus
01:51:4601:51:46 - Christ appearing in pre-incarnate christophany so before he took on a human nature before he was born of Mary
01:51:5401:51:54 - and came into this world as the Messiah the prophecied people or prophecied person who would deliver his people
01:52:0201:52:02 - Jesus Christ in pre-incarnate christophany well he was the one who talked to Moses face to face and ate
01:52:0801:52:08 - with the Elders of Israel and showed Moses his glory on Mount Si so I think the concept is pretty straightforward we
01:52:1701:52:17 - have to interpret this way simply because everything in the Bible is true and if these other verses say that no no
01:52:2301:52:23 - one has seen the father except for the son well it just has to be that way because you know Moses would have seen
01:52:2801:52:28 - the father if it was the father in that passage so um aie I wonder if you could maybe do a better a better job than me
01:52:3501:52:35 - explaining this passage here in Exodus 33 where we talk about specifically no man seeing my face you know is it the
01:52:4301:52:43 - words of the father or is Jesus talking about his face that sort of thing um you’re talking you’re
01:52:4901:52:49 - muted sorry um yeah I think uh you captured it completely the the position of the
01:52:5901:52:59 - scriptures is that no one can actually see the father so everything we see of the appearance of of uh of God
01:53:0701:53:07 - necessarily has to be another member of the Trinity so yeah so when we see um statements like the one you are talking
01:53:1801:53:18 - about it’s still the Lord Jesus who is making such a statement then when we see um how are you not afraid to speak of
01:53:2901:53:29 - Moses I speak to him face to face still the Lord Jesus that’s the thing um so it’s all it’s all the Lord Jesus that’s
01:53:3901:53:39 - the thing we we cannot take just one part of the Bible and ignore the rest we can’t get confused about this because
01:53:4701:53:47 - we’re isolating that you know we have to take it all together if if the Bible tells us in in the New Testament and no
01:53:5401:53:54 - and not just in the New Testament but let’s go with the New Testament that no man has ever seen the father and we know
01:54:0101:54:01 - that there were multiple examples of people who saw God Isaiah did the Elders of Israel you name it so that tells you
01:54:1101:54:11 - something it didn’t see yeah I think I just want to just to push on this I was just going to give
01:54:1801:54:18 - you a chance um but this verse in particular in Exodus 33:20 I think why people stumble on this is because this
01:54:2601:54:26 - sounds like the father right like you can’t see me and live right um but why do we have in our heads that that sort
01:54:3501:54:35 - of thing only applies to the father and I just want us to take a second to stop and think about it Jesus in his
01:54:4101:54:41 - pre-incarnate form was like his glory was not veiled under kinosis like it was during the
01:54:4801:54:48 - Incarnation and so why exactly is that we suppose that you know we look at God in the eye and
01:54:5601:54:56 - we wouldn’t have consequences for it and I’m talking about Jesus Christ here and that’s exactly what he tells Moses no
01:55:0301:55:03 - one can see my face no one can see me and live right um yes but why do we think that can’t apply to the pre the
01:55:1101:55:11 - pre-incarnate Jesus Christ see that’s the problem that people have with this passage is they say well you know people
01:55:1701:55:17 - saw Jesus just fine when he was walking around as a human being and even after his glorification when he had a human
01:55:2201:55:22 - nature but we’re talking about pre-incarnate Jesus here and if the Bible says this then it is so you know
01:55:3001:55:30 - and and simple as that you know and so when the person who’s talking in Exodus 33 has to be the son saying you cannot
01:55:3801:55:38 - see my face for no one can see me and live has to be the sun saying this we know that from what we’ve gone through
01:55:4401:55:44 - this statement has to apply to the son and there is no contradiction in this because it can be equally true that no
01:55:5001:55:50 - one can see the father and live and no one can see the Sun and live both those things can be true but it’s not that we
01:55:5501:55:55 - can see the Sun at all is that they can’t see his face they can’t look him in the eye in this way when he is
01:56:0201:56:02 - showing his glory that’s the other big contextual thing here is that Moses asked to to for him to show me uh
01:56:1101:56:11 - basically Show Me Your Glory um he asked the Lord for that and we know that his face glowed at this point but by you
01:56:2001:56:20 - know by understanding this we know that you know on Mount Si the Israelites saw God like fire it’s what the text says on
01:56:2801:56:28 - if not here I don’t remember if that’s here exactly but like we know this that it was massive overwhelming what we
01:56:3501:56:35 - would call pyrot Technics if you will um that is what we mean by the glory of the Lord but when Jesus talks to Abraham I’m
01:56:4301:56:43 - going to skip ahead we we’ll get to these other slides and stuff in in Genesis Chapter 18 and he wrestles with
01:56:4801:56:48 - Jacob and the man who appears to Joshua and and all of these other things do we see that fire do we see the pyrot
01:56:5701:56:57 - Technics the glory of the Lord completely unveiled well we don’t right because we have no indication then when
01:57:0501:57:05 - Abraham was chatting with this person there was like Flames everywhere right the the the glory of the Lord shining
01:57:1101:57:11 - from him kind of in this unmistakable way his identity was veiled we’ll get to this in a couple slides when we talk
01:57:1901:57:19 - about some of these other christophanies in the old Testament but this passage with Moses that’s the second big
01:57:2601:57:26 - contextual thing to keep in mind here is this you cannot see my face and live business this is talking about Jesus in
01:57:3201:57:32 - christophany but the other big thing is that we’re talking in context here specifically about when Jesus isn’t
01:57:3801:57:38 - bailing his glory at all um and so some people also have they try to draw a contradiction here while they say well
01:57:4501:57:45 - you know all these other people saw God in the Old Testament but look here in Exodus 33 it says that you can’t see him
01:57:5001:57:50 - and live contrad it’s not because in the ofes his glory he could not do this even Jesus Christ under christophany and so
01:58:0001:58:00 - at no point in any of this is there any contradiction um yeah I mean that’s just what it is
01:58:0901:58:09 - you know and and people do struggle with this and they try to proof text this specifically to find fault with the
01:58:1601:58:16 - Bible or say that it contradicts itself or or whatnot but the the person here is Jesus we as we’ve already been over has
01:58:2401:58:24 - to be him from the New Testament references that says no one’s ever seen the father um and Jesus says you cannot
01:58:3001:58:30 - see his face and live um so that’s why Moses is allowed to see his back when his glory is fully revealed when he’s
01:58:3701:58:37 - not veiling anything in his pre-incarnate form um so yeah it’s kind of a lot to get through there but um I
01:58:4501:58:45 - hope that helps us not be troubled by this um you know because I do think this is one of those occurrences in the Old
01:58:5201:58:52 - Testament where I think people I mean you can kind of be forgiven for it a little bit people associate that no one
01:58:5801:58:58 - has seen the father and no one can see me and live here they tie those things together and they think that means this
01:59:0501:59:05 - had to be the father but that actually kind of like contradicts itself right but um yeah you know uh but I’m just
01:59:1201:59:12 - saying because like the these verses in John 1118 no one has seen the father it’s like well seeing his back is still
01:59:1901:59:19 - seeing the father right see what I’m saying um so the only way that this works is if Jesus is the one saying this
01:59:2601:59:26 - um yeah well in discussion on this uh after we paused for a sec I think we came up with several other good ways to
01:59:3401:59:34 - explain this topic which is admittedly a little bit hard to wrap our heads around so one of the analogies that came up in
01:59:4001:59:40 - our discussion was kind of like looking at an eclipse and so we’re not supposed to do this with our eyes directly
01:59:4801:59:48 - because if you do that you get the full dose of looking at the sun you go blind um it hurts your vision um and that’s
01:59:5501:59:55 - sort of the sense here you know light is a is a metaphor for Glory all throughout the Bible like 2 Corinthians chapter 3
02:00:0202:00:02 - for example we hear about Moses’s face reflecting light and you know there’s this idea of light being Glory um and uh
02:00:0902:00:09 - at any rate uh when we think about this in terms of the eclipse we have to use sunglasses when we look at it we cannot
02:00:1702:00:17 - bear the full dose of that light um so to speak that’s the same thing that we’re talking about here with Moses so
02:00:2502:00:25 - uh when Moses says he wants to see the glory of God God kind of says okay but then he puts him in a rock and he only
02:00:3202:00:32 - lets him see his glory as he’s passed by from behind this is the in our analogy this is using sunglasses it’s not Moses
02:00:4102:00:41 - did not get the full dose of God so to speak of Jesus’s in his christophany the pre-incarnate Christ he did not get the
02:00:4902:00:49 - full dose of his unveiled Glory um now when we were discussing this the other main point aside from the uh the uh sort
02:00:5902:00:59 - of eclipse analogy and not getting the full dose was the fact that the father just never veils his glory this is why
02:01:0602:01:06 - there’s a difference it’s because all three members of the Trinity share the same Essence all three of them are holy
02:01:1202:01:12 - they are intolerant of sin cannot be in the presence of sin but Jesus veils his glory um sometimes like as when he’s
02:01:1902:01:19 - talking with Abraham in Genesis 18 He looks like a man right he’s not he’s not lighting up the entire top of Mount
02:01:2702:01:27 - Si like he is in this place right when he’s speaking with Moses in the cloud but he can do that and like when he
02:01:3302:01:33 - leads the Israelites um so it’s a matter of how much Jesus has uh uh veiled himself from us but the the point is the
02:01:4302:01:43 - father never does that and so that’s why it’s true that people can’t see the father at all but when Jesus removes
02:01:5002:01:50 - those limits when he does not Veil his divinity in that way and the pre-incarnate Christ remember didn’t
02:01:5702:01:57 - have a human body at this point we’re still talking about before the Incarnation so even at this point like
02:02:0202:02:02 - when God walks with Moses in Genesis Chapter 18 which we’ll get to um he’s doing that you know he’s manifesting
02:02:0902:02:09 - this physical form within the world to interact with other human beings well he’s doing that even without a physical
02:02:1402:02:14 - body but he’s doing that with his divinity Veil um so it’s not really kosis it’s not the same concept as that
02:02:2302:02:23 - really but it’s this idea that the sun is the one who appears to us but his role he is veiling that full essence of
02:02:3202:02:32 - divinity because if he didn’t that would be looking at the eclipse with no sunglasses full on that would be
02:02:3802:02:38 - blinding to us it would kill us we’d be destroyed because of God’s holiness and so when you think about it like this
02:02:4702:02:47 - then this whole thing I think makes a little bit more sense because no one can see the father no one has seen the
02:02:5202:02:52 - father because the father never veils his glory that’s his uh he he represents the the unapproachable side of deity
02:03:0102:03:01 - right he is the representation of deity within the Trinity um and so the father never veils his glory we can only see
02:03:0802:03:08 - the sun headon we can only get the full dose when he is veiling his glory that’s what this passage here in Exodus chapter
02:03:1602:03:16 - 33 ver 18 and foll is talking about is that even when we’re talking about the son if the son fully unveils himself in
02:03:2602:03:26 - the same way that the father is his glory is not veiled it all at any time if the sun does the same thing we still
02:03:3302:03:33 - die just as much because he’s God because the only time when we aren’t immediately annihilated upon this sort
02:03:3902:03:39 - of thing is when God Is veiling His glory and so this whole passage um you know Moses being put behind in the Clift
02:03:4802:03:48 - of a rock and only seeing his back what we are being told here in essence is that he did not get the
02:03:5402:03:54 - full dose that he would if Jesus unveiled his glory and we didn’t have these circumstances that made him kind
02:04:0202:04:02 - of see less than the fully unveiled glory of the Son of God of Jesus Christ in his pre-incarnate form so hopefully
02:04:1002:04:10 - that kind of helps explain things a little more here um uh you know help us work through you know is it the son is
02:04:1702:04:17 - it the father how do we know um there’s no contradictions that that whole thing we’ve been talking about here to clear
02:04:2202:04:22 - up this passage um some of those things in discussion I just kind of think help us maybe get a little bit more intuition
02:04:2702:04:27 - for it which just sometimes makes it easier for us to understand believe it accept it that sort of thing so hope all
02:04:3502:04:35 - of that has been helpful in our understanding of this point here in Exodus chapter
02:04:4202:04:42 - 33 all right so the last occurrence here of appearances of the Angel of the Exodus that’s the section we’ve kind of
02:04:5102:04:51 - been going through here we’re going to be talking about uh this reference in Judges chapter 2 where uh the angel is
02:04:5902:04:59 - talking about the one who led them up from Egypt um so Judges chapter 2 veres 1-5 I’m just going to go ahead and read
02:05:0702:05:07 - this just like we’ve been doing all the other passages so Exodus 21 or sorry Judges chapter 2 verse one um now the
02:05:1402:05:14 - angel of the Lord came up from gilgal to boim and he said I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land which I
02:05:2102:05:21 - have warn to your fathers and I said I will never break my Covenant with you and as for you you shall make no
02:05:2702:05:27 - Covenant with the inhabitants of this land you shall tear down their altars but you have not obeyed me what is this
02:05:3302:05:33 - you have done therefore I also said I will not drive them out before you but they will become as thorns in your sides
02:05:4002:05:40 - and their gods will be a snare to you when the angel of the Lord spoke these words to all the sons of Israel the
02:05:4602:05:46 - people lifted up their voices and wept so they named that place boim and there they sacrificed to the Lord so the
02:05:5302:05:53 - operative points here is that the angel of the Lord is the one speaking but he says this speaking in the first person I
02:06:0002:06:00 - brought you up out of Egypt into this land which I have sworn to your fathers and I said I will never break my
02:06:0602:06:06 - Covenant with you so the angel of the Lord uses the first person when we’re talking about the Covenant between the
02:06:1302:06:13 - people of Israel and the god of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob ero christophany this one is
02:06:2002:06:20 - really not that complicated relative to the others that we’ve been talking about um the angel claims to be the one who
02:06:2602:06:26 - led them up from Egypt and reminds the Israelites that he will never break my Covenant with you only the father could
02:06:3302:06:33 - make such a claim or someone representing him that is his servant our Lord Jesus Christ who would fulfill that
02:06:4102:06:41 - Covenant and he would make a new one he would Minister a new one for us in his blood that’s what he did for us on the
02:06:4802:06:48 - cross um New Covenant not old Covenant but point is the Angel of the Lord is talking about his Covenant the Covenant
02:06:5602:06:56 - that he first person made with the people of Israel and he has to be doing that sent as a representative of the
02:07:0302:07:03 - father um so I think this one is pretty straightforward is there anything else you want to add
02:07:0902:07:09 - aie so um like you said pretty straightforward it’s would be quite
02:07:1602:07:16 - arrogant for any ordinary Angel to be saying all that right we we we have said that in the other example Jesus was
02:07:2502:07:25 - speaking for the father but there’s a special status that Jesus actually occupies other Angels would they
02:07:3202:07:32 - wouldn’t speak like that it would be it would be Madness to speak that way so you kind of think of this in terms of
02:07:4102:07:41 - in debate or philosophy there’s something called a reductio adab zurin it’s Latin for like a reduction to the
02:07:4702:07:47 - Absurd right if you say that this being that we Angel well is it a creature angel or is it the angel of the Lord if
02:07:5402:07:54 - you say this is a creature Angel we know elsewhere that creature Angels like AI just said they don’t talk like this it
02:08:0202:08:02 - doesn’t make any sense um and and we know from elsewhere and actually we can we can do this we don’t have to rely on
02:08:1002:08:10 - kind of inferential arguments we know elsewhere that the person who is said to have brought the people out of Egypt and
02:08:1602:08:16 - lead them into the land and make covenants with them is you know t Graton god um Yahweh Jehovah um because of that
02:08:2702:08:27 - that’s where we get this equivalence between the angel of the Lord and God himself as in second member of the
02:08:3302:08:33 - Trinity because the angel of the Lord is said to have done these things right here in this passage in Judges chapter 2
02:08:4102:08:41 - but also God is said to have done these things you know Alim tetr grammaton you know The God Who to them they would have
02:08:5002:08:50 - viewed him probably not as Triune yet but we understand that it is the god of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob he is God
02:08:5802:08:58 - it’s what we’re saying the angel of the Lord is God and for that reason it’s the second member of the Trinity which means
02:09:0502:09:05 - this is christophany um yes so now we’re going to be talking
02:09:1402:09:14 - about references to the angel of the Lord elsewhere in the Old Testament so we’ve just finished now talking about
02:09:2202:09:22 - appearances of the Angel of the Lord sort of in The Exodus account so so-called Angel Of The Exodus guiding
02:09:2902:09:29 - the people of Israel out of Egypt and uh through the Wilderness to the promised land and we know that God did this you
02:09:3702:09:37 - know the the Lord uh Yahweh Tetra Graton God did this and we know that he’s also described as being the angel
02:09:4602:09:46 - of the Lord um so that is you know this passage that we just got done with here um in judges 15 um well the angel of the
02:09:5502:09:55 - Lord you know that’s where we get this phrase from among other places it’s used directly there in judges so that’s who
02:10:0002:10:00 - we’ve been talking about well it’s the same being that we’re going to be addressing now except we’re going to
02:10:0602:10:06 - just kind of go over a bit of a wider stretch of passages a couple of these will be familiar a couple of these we’ve
02:10:1102:10:11 - kind of already talked about but just multiple instances in the Old Testament where we know it is an actual appearance
02:10:1902:10:19 - of God and as we’ve talked about four when we have an appearance of God in the Old Testament you know that is what the
02:10:2702:10:27 - word theophany means we are making that point that all such appearances are actually appearances of a pre-incarnate
02:10:3402:10:34 - Jesus Christ not the father because as we’ve gone over quite a lot already um we only know the father through the son
02:10:4302:10:43 - only the son has seen the father that this is what the New Testament says very clearly about this so it has to be a
02:10:4902:10:49 - christophany that is the point that we’ve been emphasizing that’s where we’ve been going uh for our last uh you
02:10:5502:10:55 - know kind of few topics we’ve gone over here and so now you’re just going to see aside from The Exodus account where God
02:11:0202:11:02 - is leading his people out of Egypt and through the Wilderness to Canaan well aside from that which we went over a few
02:11:0902:11:09 - examples of uh appearances of the Angel of the Lord so for example to Moses on Mount Si uh you know the pillar of fire
02:11:1602:11:16 - and pillar of cloud things like this well aside from that narrative we have all the other instances as well where
02:11:2302:11:23 - it’s pretty clear that this is God we’re talking about is an appearance of God in the Old Testament and that means that
02:11:3002:11:30 - it’s a christophy um and so you’ll see what I mean as we go here um lots of instances and all of these a just
02:11:3702:11:37 - upfront note points to that symbolism of the blood of Christ and what his sacrifice represents for us just as we
02:11:4502:11:45 - kind of introduced with uh some of the other uh the passages and topics we were going through before uh so for example
02:11:5302:11:53 - the pillar of fire being over the the part of the Tabernacle where uh the high priest goes into on the day of atonement
02:12:0002:12:00 - the holy of holies representing Christ’s judgment you know the shedding of blood for the Forgiveness of sins on that sort
02:12:0602:12:06 - of thing well think in terms of that as we go about uh talking about some of these passages too so not all of them
02:12:1302:12:13 - some of them are way more clear than others and you’ll kind of see what I mean when we get there so the first
02:12:1802:12:18 - instance we’re going to be talking about that is another clear instance of an appearance of God in the Old Testament
02:12:2402:12:24 - that we’re identifying as a christophany is when Jacob wrestles with the angel and this is in Genesis chter 32 picking
02:12:3202:12:32 - up in verse 22 so as I say lots of scripture that we are going to be uh a that’s interesting the reference
02:12:4102:12:41 - from exus picks up at verse 22 looks like verse 24 is kind of where it starts but regardless maybe 24 through 32 um so
02:12:4802:12:48 - uh reading lots of scripture here to just give that account of the situations
02:12:5302:12:53 - we’re talking about so uh Genesis CH 32 picking up at verse 24 says then Jacob was alone and a man wrestled with him
02:13:0202:13:02 - until Daybreak when he saw that he had not prevailed against him he touched the socket of his thigh so the socket of
02:13:0802:13:08 - Jacob’s thigh was dislocated while he wrestled with him then he said let me go for the Dawn is Breaking but he said uh
02:13:1702:13:17 - he being Jacob here I will not let you go unless you bless me so he said to to him what is your name and he said Jacob
02:13:2302:13:23 - he said your name shall no longer be Jacob but Israel for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed
02:13:3002:13:30 - then Jacob asked him and said please tell me your name but he said why is it that you ask my name and he blessed him
02:13:3602:13:36 - there so Jacob named the place penel for he said I have seen God face to face yet my life has been preserved now the son
02:13:4502:13:45 - Rose upon him just as he crossed over penel and he was limping on his thigh therefore to this day the sons of Israel
02:13:5302:13:53 - do not eat the sine of the hip which is on the socket of the thigh because he touched the socket of Jacob’s thigh in
02:13:5902:13:59 - the sen of the hip so a couple interesting things to point out is that Jacob knows at least he does at the
02:14:0702:14:07 - point of verse 30 he knows that this being who he wrestled with was God and that he saw God face to face not an
02:14:1402:14:14 - Angel um but you know Elohim here right God himself rather than uh another creature um and so uh you know whether
02:14:2502:14:25 - or not he knew that from the first as Paul it but he also asks for a blessing earlier on in the passage which you know
02:14:3302:14:33 - would he ask angels for blessings you have some interpretive things like that but the point is Jacob knew that this
02:14:3902:14:39 - was an appearance of the Lord and that the being that he saw here face to face um as we have talked about before has to
02:14:4902:14:49 - be reincarnate Jesus Christ because no one sees the father um so this is another place in the Old Testament where
02:14:5602:14:56 - we see an appearance of the Angel of the Lord um and in fact Hosea 12 confirms that this occurrence here um so we’re
02:15:0602:15:06 - told that it was God here in Genesis 32:30 Jacob says I have seen God face to face yet my life has been preserved well
02:15:1402:15:14 - how do we know it’s not the father well among other reasons we know this is the Angel of the Lord because of hoseah
02:15:2002:15:20 - chapter 12 so in Hosea 12: 3- 4 um this is speaking of Jacob it says that in the womb he being Jacob took his brother by
02:15:3002:15:30 - the heel and in his maturity he contended with God okay so that’s God again as we saw in Genesis chapter 32
02:15:3702:15:37 - verse3 but then in verse four of chapter 12 of Hosea we see that Jacob wrestled with the angel and prevailed notice the
02:15:4602:15:46 - angel so we just said contended with God wrestled with the angel so the Angel is God right he wept and sought his F favor
02:15:5402:15:54 - he found him at bethl and there he spoke with us so the angel and God just as we’ve talked about multiple times before
02:16:0102:16:01 - are equated with one another here um and this parallelism that you’ll see here he contended with God yes he wrestled with
02:16:0802:16:08 - the angel and prevailed that parallelism is very common in Hebrew um uh and different languages sort of have their
02:16:1502:16:15 - different uh think about the right word it’s not strictly like Poetic syntax but um this destruction if you want to call
02:16:2202:16:22 - it that uh these things are being put in opposition to one another the angel is God as we’ve been going over all this
02:16:3002:16:30 - time before but that’s how we know here that this particular occurrence of Jacob wrestling with this being in Genesis
02:16:3702:16:37 - chapter 32 well not only is it said to be God but we know that it is the Angel of the Lord that Jacob wrestled with
02:16:4402:16:44 - because hoseah 12 says it’s the angel so this is another occurrence of Christ in the Old Testament now another one here
02:16:5402:16:54 - um that we’re going to look at is Genesis 18 and so um this is uh you know talking about the birth of Isaac and
02:17:0402:17:04 - you’ll see um this one’s a little bit long here um but we have uh Jacob or sorry Abraham speaking with the Lord so
02:17:1402:17:14 - again small caps Lord means we know that we are speaking of the god of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob uh yah way Jehovah
02:17:2202:17:22 - um this is the tetr Gaton in the Hebrew so the Lord appeared to him in being Abraham by The Oaks of mamra where he
02:17:3002:17:30 - was sitting at the tent Door In the Heat of the day and so when Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked behold three men
02:17:3702:17:37 - were standing opposite him and when he saw them he ran to the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the Earth and
02:17:4302:17:43 - said my Lord if I have now found favor in your sight please do not pass your servant by please let a little water be
02:17:4902:17:49 - brought and wash your feet and rest your El under the tree and I will bring a piece of bread that you may be that you
02:17:5402:17:54 - may refresh yourselves after that you may go on since you have visited your servant and they said so do as you have
02:17:5902:17:59 - said um and so Abraham and Sarah um basically uh you know this is where the
02:18:0902:18:09 - birth of Isaac is prophecied um but uh it’s very clear In this passage in Genesis Chapter 18 that um Abraham is
02:18:1802:18:18 - actually speaking with the Lord um and I’m not going to go ahead and read the whole thing um just because uh you know
02:18:2702:18:27 - it it basically the point that we’re making here is that the Lord appeared to him right and again that is the the
02:18:3502:18:35 - language be talking about the appearance of the Lord theophany and this has to be christophy for all the reasons we’ve
02:18:4102:18:41 - said now the other people the other beings who were present here that Abraham saw as well well it’s not like
02:18:4902:18:49 - this is like the three members of the trinity not the right way to take this it was that it would have been the
02:18:5302:18:53 - pre-incarnate Jesus Christ in angels as well um so uh but basically this appearance to Abraham is well of the
02:19:0302:19:03 - Lord because the passage itself says that the Lord appeared to him um not just an angel but God himself um and so
02:19:1202:19:12 - a uh sorry uh Genesis Chapter 18 uh the appearance of the Lord to Abraham uh this is another place where where well
02:19:2102:19:21 - it’s not exactly The Exodus narrative but it is an appearance of God in the Old Testament which we take to be a
02:19:2702:19:27 - christophany um so again I just mentioned lots of passages we’re going to go through here reading scripture the
02:19:3502:19:35 - next one we’re going to look at is the man who appeared to Joshua in Joshua chapter 5 who said to be the commander
02:19:4402:19:44 - of the Lord’s host um and so we’ll go ahead and read this passage and then come back to our descript destion of it
02:19:5102:19:51 - so Joshua 5 picking up at verse 13 says now it came about when Joshua was by Jericho that he lifted up his eyes and
02:19:5902:19:59 - looked and behold a man was standing opposite him with his sword drawn in his hand and Joshua went to him and said to
02:20:0502:20:05 - him are you for us or for our adversaries he said no rather I indeed come now as captain of the host of the
02:20:1302:20:13 - Lord and Joshua fell on his face to the Earth and bowed down and said to himwhat has my Lord to say to his servant the
02:20:2102:20:21 - captain of the Lord’s host said to Joshua remove your sandals from your feet for the place where you are
02:20:2602:20:26 - standing is Holy and Joshua did so so a couple things point to this person here the commander of the Lord’s
02:20:3602:20:36 - host actually being reincarnate Jesus Christ so uh number one Joshua worships him he bows down in actual worship now
02:20:4702:20:47 - he is not the only person in the Bible to bow down at the appearance of of some being who’s obviously not human but in
02:20:5302:20:53 - Revelation chapter 19 when John does this taken away in his prophetic Vision when he does this for an Angel and the
02:21:0102:21:01 - angel scolds him and says no no um I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus
02:21:0802:21:08 - Christ worship God for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of Prophecy so um John says this in Revelation 19:10 and
02:21:1702:21:17 - similar thing here in Revelation 22:9 he does it again and the angel says don’t do that I’m a fellow servant of
02:21:2402:21:24 - yours and your brethren and the prophets who heed the words of this book worship God and so we know from the Bible that
02:21:3102:21:31 - if humans try to Bow Down and Worship Angels the Angels would be like don’t do that uh don’t worship me worship God but
02:21:4002:21:40 - you’ll notice that in this particular passage in Joshua chapter 5 the being who appears before Joshua doesn’t
02:21:4702:21:47 - say no stop I’m a fellow servant of yours he accepts the worship and then he tells Joshua to remove his sandals
02:21:5502:21:55 - because he’s standing on ground that is Holy and uh that should sound real familiar because we talked about the
02:22:0102:22:01 - burning bush not so long ago where we burning bush is very obviously christophany we we talked about that a
02:22:0902:22:09 - few slides back well the wording here is very nearly identical remove your sandals from your feet for the place on
02:22:1602:22:16 - which you are standing is Holy Ground yeah that showed up in Exodus 3 versus you know like five and following where
02:22:2302:22:23 - Moses comes to the burning bush that same phrasing is used here in Joshua chapter 5 when Joshua is talking to the
02:22:3002:22:30 - commander of the Lord’s host so third example here of an appearance of the pre-incarnate Christ in the Old
02:22:3802:22:38 - Testament as a christophany um you know aside from the the ones dealing with the angel of The Exodus that we’ve already
02:22:4502:22:45 - been over um and so this one next one that we’re going to look at uh in Exodus chapter 24 we’ve actually already talked
02:22:5202:22:52 - about this one um overlaps a bit here with what we’ve already talked about where the Elders of Israel so Exodus 24:
02:23:0102:23:01 - 9-1 the Elders of Israel saw the god of Israel and under his feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphires clear as
02:23:0702:23:07 - the sky himself yet he did not stretch out his hand against the Nobles of the sons of Israel and they saw God and they
02:23:1202:23:12 - ate and drank together with him so um this particular not just Moses and Aaron but actually the Elders of Israel as
02:23:1902:23:19 - well seeing God on Mount Si in The Exodus narrative um we’ve already been over this once I’m not going to spend
02:23:2502:23:25 - too much time on this but something that is worthy of note and this is presumably why Dr L will brings it back up again in
02:23:3202:23:32 - the study is that the symbolic meal of fellowship with him um which probably going to blow your mind a bit when we
02:23:3902:23:39 - when we talk about this this is clearly foreshadowing communion based on the blood of Jesus Christ and so I think
02:23:4802:23:48 - sometimes this particular particular significance not that I want us to get super off topic here sometimes we might
02:23:5402:23:54 - not make this connection uh when people think of communion as a hyper ritualized you know they they call it a uh one of
02:24:0302:24:03 - the things in the church that I don’t know why the word’s escaping me um you know it’s like marriage
02:24:1002:24:10 - um whatever um you know basically if you make it a ritual you rob it of the fact that communion has always been about
02:24:1802:24:18 - sharing a meal that’s what it was when Jesus first instituted it with the apostles it’s about this idea of
02:24:2502:24:25 - Fellowship shared in the blood of Christ and so this is clearly a precursor to it is symbolizing foreshadowing prophesying
02:24:3602:24:36 - that future institution that Jesus gives to us to commemorate what he did on the cross um it’s foreshadowing you know
02:24:4402:24:44 - that is what prop prophetic typology does here um and so that is a connection that we hadn’t
02:24:5202:24:52 - explored before but um this is what I meant about keep in mind all of these places where we were pointing everything
02:24:5902:24:59 - back to the Cross to what Jesus did how all of these things uh foreshadow it they they tell of what Jesus would do um
02:25:0802:25:08 - even all of these appearances in the Old Testament now we’re about to see two more that even more clearly say that so
02:25:1502:25:15 - keeping on as I say long section here um the next one that we’re going to look at is in Judges chapter 6 and so this is uh
02:25:2402:25:24 - when the angel of the Lord appears to Gideon um so Judges chapter 6 picking up in verse 11 um this one is a little bit
02:25:3402:25:34 - longer but I am going to read this whole one it’s not quite as long as the Genesis 18 passage from before so then
02:25:4102:25:41 - verse 11 then the angel of the Lord came and sat under the oak that was in arra which belonged to joash the abz as his
02:25:5002:25:50 - son Gideon was beating out wheat in the wine press in order to save it from the midianites the angel of the Lord
02:25:5702:25:57 - appeared to him and said to him the Lord is with you oh Valiant Warrior then Gideon said to him oh my Lord if the
02:26:0402:26:04 - Lord is with us why then has all this happened to us and where are all his miracles which our fathers told us about
02:26:1002:26:10 - saying did not the Lord bring us up from Egypt but now the Lord has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian the
02:26:1802:26:18 - Lord looked at him and said go in this your strength and deliver Israel from the hand of Midian have I not sent you
02:26:2502:26:25 - he said to him oh Lord how shall I deliver Israel behold my family is the least in manasse and I am the youngest
02:26:3102:26:31 - in my father’s house but the Lord said to him surely I will be with you and you shall defeat Midian as one man so Gideon
02:26:3902:26:39 - said to him if now I have found favor in your sight then show me a sign that is you who speak to me please do not depart
02:26:4602:26:46 - from here until I come back to you and bring out my offering and lay it before you
02:26:5002:26:50 - and he said I will remain until you return Then Gideon went in and prepared a young goat and unleavened bread from
02:26:5702:26:57 - an aath of flour he put the meat in a basket and the broth in a pot and brought them out to him under the Oak
02:27:0302:27:03 - and presented them the angel of God said to him take the meat and the unleavened bread and lay them on this rock and pour
02:27:0902:27:09 - out the broth and he did so then the angel of the Lord put out the end of the staff that was in his hand and touched
02:27:1502:27:15 - the meat and the unloving bread and fire sprang up from the Rock and consumed the meat and the unleavened bread then the
02:27:2302:27:23 - angel of the Lord vanished from his sight when Gideon saw that he was the angel of the Lord he said alas oh Lord
02:27:3102:27:31 - God for now I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face the Lord said to him peace to you do not fear you shall not
02:27:3902:27:39 - die all right so passage where God is calling Gideon he is basically giving him a job and Gideon says well how do I
02:27:4902:27:49 - know it’s you God and through the sacrifice that is consumed in fire Gideon is given a sign to understand
02:27:5602:27:56 - that this is God he’s talking to and you’ll notice all throughout the passage the person in question here is said to
02:28:0202:28:02 - be the angel of the Lord right so that that particular connection there between God and the angel of the Lord is one
02:28:0902:28:09 - we’ve made over and over here but the symbolism that we’re going to just give a nod to here is that the angel
02:28:1702:28:17 - identifies himself with the sacrifice by touching it with his staff and so that is towards the end of the passage
02:28:2502:28:25 - here um verse 21 the angel of the Lord put out the end of the staff that was in his hand and touched the meat and the
02:28:3102:28:31 - unloving bread and fire sprang up from the Rock and consumed the meat and the unloving bread um so we kind of talked
02:28:3802:28:38 - already about how in the Mosaic law they had a particular set of uh regulations concerning burnt offerings uh this came
02:28:4702:28:47 - up before when we were talking about the symbolism there well when this goes up in Flames this represents typologically
02:28:5502:28:55 - the Judgment of God that Christ was to undergo on our behalf and so this is again perhaps not something that you
02:29:0302:29:03 - would have seen um taught on much but the symbolism is there um this is not like a huge stretch we’re making here
02:29:1102:29:11 - that we are speaking of the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ and the offering that Gideon gives to him is
02:29:1902:29:19 - going to be representing God’s fire consuming the offering you know basically put up for the Redemption of
02:29:2602:29:26 - all of our sins um and so that particular theme of redemption tracing throughout all these appearances of God
02:29:3402:29:34 - it’s just something that I hadn’t seen before until we connect the dots when we go through the appearances of Christ in
02:29:4102:29:41 - the Old Testament like this so more as well um next one probably even more uh overt
02:29:5002:29:50 - in this connection um actually pretty similar um so in Judges chapter 13 we hear about the parents of Samson um so
02:30:0002:30:00 - uh see it’s been a second since I’ve looked at this but um you know so the the birth of Samson is prophecied here
02:30:0702:30:07 - um you know uh we have this it’s not even like a literary theme because we know the Bible is true but this idea of
02:30:1402:30:14 - a barren woman given birth uh you can also compare uh uh you know Elizabeth the mother of John the Baptist and and
02:30:2102:30:21 - Sarah of course the wife of Abraham well um so we have a certain man of Zora of the family at the day nights whose name
02:30:2902:30:29 - was monoa and his wife was baren and had borne no children so we have the birth of Samson prophecied here and he is said
02:30:3602:30:36 - that he will be Nazarite and um you’ll note that at this particular time uh the angel of the Lord appears but at this
02:30:4402:30:44 - point they are not tracking so much that the one who appeared was God um so verse three uh we are said that the angel of
02:30:5202:30:52 - the Lord appeared to the woman who was Barren and said to her uh you know so on um but in verse six the woman comes and
02:31:0002:31:00 - gets her husband saying a man of God came to see me and his his appearance was like the angel of the angel of God
02:31:0702:31:07 - very awesome and I did not ask him where he came from nor did he tell me his name um so they aren’t 100% here um and they
02:31:1702:31:17 - can suspect right because we see that the appearance of of the angel of God was very awesome but when when Noah
02:31:2402:31:24 - entreats the Lord later on um you know basically hold on let me look at the passage for a sec here
02:31:3202:31:32 - um so he comes back I’m I’m looking for the let me see the particular passage was through verse
02:31:4102:31:41 - 23 uh right um so I’m I’m skipping some stuff in the middle I’m sorry I just I this section is already going to be
02:31:4802:31:48 - pretty long um but uh we have this idea of an offering again here um so when monoa and his wife do this um they
02:31:5902:31:59 - prepare an offering for the Lord um because you know uh this is just what was arranged well then uh basically
02:32:1002:32:10 - monoa asks the name um of the person that they’re talking to um but the angel of the Lord ascends in the flame of the
02:32:1902:32:19 - altar so when Noah and his wife saw this they fell on their faces to the ground because they knew that this was the
02:32:2602:32:26 - angel of the Lord so again there’s this idea we will surely sigh for we have seen God very parallel to the end of
02:32:3202:32:32 - this passage in Judges chapter 6 where you know Midian sees he he sees that the angel of the
02:32:4102:32:41 - Lord touched his burnt offering with his staff and then the fire consumed it and then that was the sign and then he he
02:32:4902:32:49 - recognizes that he he’d seen the angel of the Lord face to face and then God says you know peace to you do not fear
02:32:5402:32:54 - you won’t die well similar sort of thing happens at the end of this passage in Judges chapter 13 uh like verse
02:33:0202:33:02 - 2223 um monoa and his wife realized that they have seen God that this was the angel of the Lord that they were talking
02:33:0902:33:09 - to um but he does not heal them right this is the understanding that the being before them was this reincarnate appear
02:33:1902:33:19 - of Christ so I’m sorry a bit rambly I forgotten how long this one was um so the angel uh the connection that we’re
02:33:2502:33:25 - going to make here is that the angel is described as such throughout the passage but manoah and his wife though realizing
02:33:3302:33:33 - that an angel has appeared to them and is obviously you know not a human being they don’t completely realize that this
02:33:4002:33:40 - is in fact the angel of the Lord until his departure in verse 21 when they exclaim that they have seen God so in
02:33:4902:33:49 - the passage we talked about in Judges chapter 6 where um we spoke of Gideon’s sacrifice and symbolism of the sacrifice
02:33:5902:33:59 - being consumed by the fire prefiguring uh Jesus’s judgment upon the cross it’s even more explicit here in this passage
02:34:0702:34:07 - with the parents of Samson um because um when they offer this one sec um right the the bit I have
02:34:1802:34:18 - highlighted right now um the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar he becomes associated with it he
02:34:2602:34:26 - goes through the Flames um and so this is just a clearer parallel here um it’s more distinctly drawn how ikus puts it
02:34:3302:34:33 - is more distinctly drawn in this passage for he ascended quote unquote in the flame of the burnt sacrifice the very
02:34:3902:34:39 - picture of Christ being judged on our behalf teaching Old Testament Believers to look forward to God’s future
02:34:4402:34:44 - forgiveness of sins through a sacrifice that he would provide um so the symbolis here it is particularly noteworthy that
02:34:5402:34:54 - the angel of the Lord that we’re talking about is Jesus Christ he is the one who ascended Through the flames of judgment
02:35:0102:35:01 - um and this is one of those reasons why getting this idea of christophany correct theologically
02:35:0902:35:09 - speaking that these appearances in the Old Testament of this being are of Jesus Christ has that symbolic punch to it
02:35:1702:35:17 - because it points everything forward to the Cross we understand that this is the visible member of the Trinity who would
02:35:2402:35:24 - be sent to die for our sins okay so we have my four more four more passages left here um so we have
02:35:3502:35:35 - talked about all of these places so wrestling with Jacob appearing to Abraham um the man who appeared to
02:35:4102:35:41 - Joshua the commander of the Lord’s host uh the being who ate with the um the Elders of Israel and Moses and a in
02:35:4902:35:49 - prefiguring communion uh the angel of the Lord who appeared to Gideon when Gideon was called the angel of the Lord
02:35:5602:35:56 - appearing to the parents of Samson um well we’re gonna talk now about a couple of prophetic Visions which through some
02:36:0602:36:06 - interpretive leg work we can identify as actually being Jesus Christ so uh we will cross reference some of this with
02:36:1302:36:13 - Revelation because we have a description of Jesus Christ in Revelation but in the book of Isaiah um Isaiah has a vision of
02:36:2102:36:21 - Israel’s King and this is in Isaiah chapter 6 um and so you know somewhat long chapter not going to entirely go
02:36:2902:36:29 - through it here but if you compare the Lord sitting on the throne lofty and exalted with a train of his robe filling
02:36:3702:36:37 - the temple and then you know I’m going to go on and read a little bit here um this is it the first part of Isaiah
02:36:4402:36:44 - chapter 6 picking up at verse one um so that person sitting on the throne in the temple with his robe filling the temple
02:36:5202:36:52 - sarim stand above him this is picking up at verse two each having six wings with two he covered his face and with two he
02:36:5802:36:58 - covered his feet and with two he flew and one called out to another and they said holy holy holy is the Lord of hosts
02:37:0402:37:04 - the whole earth is full of his glory and the foundations of the thresholds trembled with the voice of him who
02:37:0802:37:08 - called out while the temple was filling with smoke and then Isaiah speaks of being a man of unclean lips for he has
02:37:1602:37:16 - seen the king the Lord of hosts um so um um okay so that’s Isaiah chapter 6 well how do we know that this is Jesus Christ
02:37:2502:37:25 - um we have somewhat of an oblique reference to this in the Gospel of John in John 12: 41 because Isaiah is said to
02:37:3302:37:33 - have seen his glory and he spoke of him and so you have to do some uh some BL work there um you have to do a bit of of
02:37:4302:37:43 - interpretation to get here but that particular passage in Isaiah chapter 6 we’re talking about with the being on
02:37:4902:37:49 - the throne uh you know with the seraphim in present we line this up with this reference in the Book of John and we
02:37:5902:37:59 - understand that Isaiah was seen to uh he saw a vision of Jesus Christ and one of the other reasons why we know this um is
02:38:0702:38:07 - that the altar upon which this being stands when the Cole is taken from the altar that is what takes away the sin of
02:38:1602:38:16 - Isaiah here um so you can kind of take my word for uh we don’t quite have enough time to go into all the
02:38:2202:38:22 - connections there but this is one vision of Jesus Christ enthroned in glory we talked about him as the father’s uh
02:38:3102:38:31 - representative or messenger carrying basically as the Crown Prince Regent of this world he carries that monarchy that
02:38:3902:38:39 - is part of his you know he has his mission and uh what he’s been sent to do but part of that is that he will reign
02:38:4502:38:45 - he will be the king of king and the Lord of lords um so we have a kind of similar thing so that was Isaiah chapter 6 in
02:38:5202:38:52 - Ezekiel chapter 1 uh shorter this time so Ezekiel chapter 1 picking up at verse 25 through verse 28 um so Ezekiel 125
02:39:0202:39:02 - and there came a voice from above the expanse that was over their heads whenever they Stood Still they dropped
02:39:0802:39:08 - their wings now above the expanse that was over their heads there was something resembling a throne like lapis lazuli in
02:39:1402:39:14 - appearance and on that which resembled a throne high up was a figure with the appearance of a man and I noticed from
02:39:2002:39:20 - the appearance of his loins and upward something like glowing metal that looked like fire all around within it and from
02:39:2602:39:26 - the appearance of his loins and downward I saw something like fire and there was a Radiance around him and the appearance
02:39:3202:39:32 - of the rainbow in the cloud as the appearance of the rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day so was the appearance of
02:39:3802:39:38 - the surrounding Radiance such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord and when I saw it I fell on
02:39:4402:39:44 - my face and I heard a voice speaking so obviously being represented in the glory of the radiance about him
02:39:5302:39:53 - that idea of visible light being a manifestation of God’s God’s glory um well that’s where this comes from in
02:40:0102:40:01 - Ezekiel well when we compare what we just read in Ezekiel chapter 1 with the description of the glorified Christ
02:40:0802:40:08 - found in Revelation um you know and also the appearance of the one who you know ate with the elders uh who were upon the
02:40:1702:40:17 - pavement of sapphire in Exodus CH 24 like we already read well when we go compare what we just read in Ezekiel
02:40:2402:40:24 - chap 1 to the description of uh Jesus Christ in Revelation CH 1 verses 12- 16 um well picking up at
02:40:3302:40:33 - verse 12 we said I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me and having turned I saw seven golden lampstands and
02:40:3802:40:38 - in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man Flo in a robe reaching to his reaching to the feet and
02:40:4502:40:45 - gted across his chest with a golden sash his head and his hair were like white wool like snow and his eyes were like a
02:40:5202:40:52 - flame of fire his feet were like burnished bronze when it has been made to Glow in a furnace and his voice was
02:40:5802:40:58 - like the sound of many Waters in his right hand he held the Seven Stars and out of his mouth came a sharp two-edged
02:41:0302:41:03 - sword and his face was like the sun shining in its strength so same idea of the outpouring of Glory with light um we
02:41:1302:41:13 - also have uh you know his feet burn his bronze made to Glow in a furnace and you can compare that to
02:41:1902:41:19 - you know the uh basically from his loins downward something like fire this Radiance coming out from him in Ezekiel
02:41:2702:41:27 - again you do some interpr interpretive leg work here but we can line the being seen in ezel up with the glorified Jesus
02:41:3702:41:37 - Christ um and so these are a little bit distinct from some of the appearances that that we’ve talked about in the
02:41:4402:41:44 - physical manifestations these are appearances of Jesus Christ and prophetic Visions now the thing that
02:41:4902:41:49 - complicates this a little bit not that we’re going to get super far into it because the section’s already super long
02:41:5402:41:54 - is that you can also have visions of the father um so difference between appearances of God in the world those
02:42:0202:42:02 - are always Jesus Christ is that you can have prophetic visions of the father is well um and so doing the interpretive
02:42:0802:42:08 - leg work to show this is actually a vision of the glorified Christ rather than the father that is actually
02:42:1302:42:13 - something that you have to do um but again we’re kind of skipping over that here so you apologize but um well
02:42:2102:42:21 - another prophetic passage to kind of seal the the several that we’re going to look at here comes from Zechariah
02:42:2602:42:26 - Chapter One um so H see am I gonna read this whole thing
02:42:3502:42:35 - um well so basically we have a okay I’ll go ahead and read the whole thing just to give us all the context so Zechariah
02:42:4302:42:43 - 1: 7 and following on the 24th day of the 11 month which which is the month Shabbat in the second year of Darius the
02:42:5202:42:52 - word of the Lord came to Zechariah the prophet the son of bariah the son of Ido as follows I saw at night and behold a
02:43:0002:43:00 - man was riding on a red horse and he was standing among the Myrtle trees which were in the Ravine with red sorl and
02:43:0602:43:06 - white horses behind him then I said my Lord what are these and the angel who was speaking with me said to me I will
02:43:1202:43:12 - show you what these are and the man who was standing among the Myrtle trees answered and said these are those whom
02:43:1802:43:18 - the Lord has sent to patrol the Earth so they answered the angel of the Lord I note the angel of the Lord’s here in
02:43:2502:43:25 - verse 11 who was standing among the Myrtle trees that is the Angel of the Lord is the one standing among the
02:43:3002:43:30 - Myrtle trees and said we have patrolled the Earth and behold all Earth is peaceful all the Earth is peaceful and
02:43:3602:43:36 - quiet then the angel of the Lord said oh lord of hosts how long will you have no compassion for Jerusalem in the cities
02:43:4202:43:42 - of Judah with which you have been indignant these 70 years the Lord answered the angel who was speaking with
02:43:5202:43:52 - me gracious words comforting words so the angel who was speaking with me said to me Proclaim saying thus says the Lord
02:43:5802:43:58 - of hosts I am exceedingly jealous for Jerusalem and Zion but I am very angry with the Nations who are at ease for
02:44:0402:44:04 - while I was only a little angry they furthered the disaster therefore thus says the Lord I will return to Jerusalem
02:44:1102:44:11 - with compassion my house will be built in it declares the Lord of hosts and a measuring line will be stretched over
02:44:1702:44:17 - Jerusalem again Proclaim saying thus says the Lord of hosts my cities will again overflow with prosperity and the
02:44:2302:44:23 - Lord will again Comfort Zion and again choose Jerusalem all right so this one is
02:44:3102:44:31 - notable because in this part of Zechariah here um you know uh the word of the Lord came to Zechariah the
02:44:4002:44:40 - prophet well we know this to be more than just a figure of speech because we know that is the Angel of the Lord who
02:44:4702:44:47 - is standing in the Myrtle tree speaking to Zechariah here that’s what verse 11 tells us but the thing that is so
02:44:5202:44:52 - crucial to helping us understand how this works you know when we talk about who is talking who is appearing and the
02:45:0002:45:00 - distinctions between the people of the Trinity now remember Zechariah the Old Testament here is that the angel of the
02:45:0702:45:07 - Lord who appears said right so the angel of the Lord said oh lord of hosts he’s addressing a different being he’s
02:45:1702:45:17 - addressing some other person in the Trinity um should blow our minds a little bit right the angel of
02:45:2402:45:24 - the Lord in this passage in Zechariah Chapter 1 is distinct from The Lord of hosts um but we know from other places
02:45:3202:45:32 - in the Old Testament that they’re both god um so um that is the takeaway here and I mean this is all this evidence
02:45:4402:45:44 - that we’ve gone through all of these other places in the Old Testament that we see the appearance of the Angel of
02:45:5002:45:50 - the Lord equated with God or appearing to all these people this is why we are saying that
02:45:5602:45:56 - the uniform conclusion is that all of these appearances are of Jesus Christ in a pre-incarnate state um and if all of
02:46:0402:46:04 - that weren’t enough to finally top it all off we have the fact and again this is something I never put together until
02:46:1102:46:11 - I read this part on ichus that after the birth of Christ Angels appear plenty right there are still more appearances
02:46:1702:46:17 - of angels in the Bible but never again does the angel of the Lord appear in scriptures we only hear of Jesus Christ
02:46:2602:46:26 - right Jesus Christ appears after this you know as in the God man who is now perfectly God and perfectly man the
02:46:3302:46:33 - hypostatic union that man appears but we don’t hear anymore of the Angel of the Lord who as
02:46:4102:46:41 - we’ve just gone through appears many places in the Old Testament has this this role of speaking authoritatively
02:46:4902:46:49 - for god well the one that we see doing that in the New Testament is Jesus Christ if you want to compare the quote
02:46:5802:46:58 - unquote job descriptions of the Angel of the Lord in Jesus Christ they’re the same and so this is why we know Jesus
02:47:0502:47:05 - Christ is the Angel of the Lord and this argument from Silence if you want to call it that that after Jesus Takes on a
02:47:1202:47:12 - human nature after he becomes human he’s born during the Incarnation we no longer see appearances of the Angel of the Lord
02:47:1902:47:19 - we only hear about appearances of Jesus Christ is perhaps some of the strongest evidence of all that these two beings
02:47:2602:47:26 - have always been the same person that this is how the plan of God has worked so that was an awful lot we’ve gone
02:47:3202:47:32 - through here um all of these things point to that that truth that we’ve been outlining this entire time that when we
02:47:4102:47:41 - hear of God appearing to people in the Old Testament in all of these ways even in Visions sometimes we know that we are
02:47:4802:47:48 - speaking of Jesus Christ this is the member of the Trinity who appears who is visible to us who represents the
02:47:5602:47:56 - authority of the father so that’s actually where we’re going to wrap this particular section
02:48:0402:48:04 - talking about christophanies and appearances of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament it’s actually where we’re
02:48:1002:48:10 - going to be ending this study here that we’ve been going through of theology proper as well so we started out talking
02:48:1602:48:16 - about the uh the nature of God his infinite nature and his perfect character and then we shifted into
02:48:2302:48:23 - talking about the Trinity and that’s kind of The Wider section that we’re wrapping up here um appearances of God
02:48:2902:48:29 - in the Old Testament manifesting Jesus Christ the second person of the Trinity being present even from the earliest
02:48:3502:48:35 - parts of scripture um but the takeaway point that Dr lugan bille has Us close on here is that the Lord Jesus Christ
02:48:4502:48:45 - has always been the win the has always been and will always be the person with whom we have to do in whom we must
02:48:5402:48:54 - believe in order to have an eternal relationship with the father it’s only Christ who has quote unquote made the
02:49:0002:49:00 - father known it’s what John chapter 1 verse 18 says to us um no one has seen God the only be the only begotten is in
02:49:0902:49:09 - the bosom of the father he has explained him so Jesus Christ is the only one who has seen the father um and only through
02:49:1602:49:16 - him do we come to possess uh the quote knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ that’s quoting 2
02:49:2302:49:23 - Corinthians 4:6 for God who said light shall shine out of darkness is the one who has shown in our hearts to give the
02:49:3002:49:30 - light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ so you can also compare the first part of Jesus
02:49:3602:49:36 - Christ or sorry the first part of Hebrews chapter 1 talking about how Jesus is the exact representation of the
02:49:4302:49:43 - glory of the father um so in the Old Testament we hear the father appearing through the pr incarnate son in the New
02:49:5002:49:50 - Testament we see and hear the Incarnate son speaking the father’s words so Jesus Christ and this is what I was getting at
02:49:5702:49:57 - before in his pre-incarnate appearances as the angel of the Lord the function if you want to call it that
02:50:0702:50:07 - that he served in the division of labor that the Trinity split their roles he in both cases was the representative of the
02:50:1602:50:16 - Father the agent sent to act on behalf of the father um that has been consistent across his appearances as the
02:50:2302:50:23 - angel of the Lord pre-incarnate Jesus Christ as well as after the Incarnation um so to wrap all this up into a nice
02:50:3102:50:31 - neat bow this particular section here the Trinity has always been present in God’s revelation of himself to those who
02:50:3802:50:38 - believe and follow him we saw that just before in that passage in Zechariah Chapter one you know the angel of the
02:50:4402:50:44 - Lord said to the Lord of hosts if you don’t see the Trinity there um it’s right there in the text right
02:50:5302:50:53 - the Trinity has always been present in God’s revelation of himself to those who believe and follow him as Christians
02:50:5902:50:59 - whenever we say the word God we should keep in mind that for us this means the Trinity the father and the Son and the
02:51:0602:51:06 - Holy Spirit um and I don’t think this is uh think I the right way to say this like we think of God and God is one
02:51:1602:51:16 - because he has one essence know the shared Essence between the members of the Trinity um however we know that the
02:51:2402:51:24 - three persons of the Trinity all work together in perfect Unity to bring about that plan as we’ve talked about um so is
02:51:3102:51:31 - there anything else you want to say to to close us off here this particular section on uh basically you know uh us
02:51:3902:51:39 - seeing everything through Jesus Christ as the representative of the father or us thinking of God in terms of the
02:51:4402:51:44 - Trinity when we consider him anything else at all Audi before we close this one
02:51:5102:51:51 - out I I hope you’ll be able to hear me my um connection has been pretty bad um there isn’t very much to say we can
02:52:0402:52:04 - say for certain that um God is one and God is three and those three
02:52:1602:52:16 - persons self assign Rose themselves in order to bring about the plan that God had from eternity the
02:52:2502:52:25 - whole point of discussing and exploring the nature of God is to understand who we’re
02:52:3402:52:34 - dealing with there are all sorts of conceptions about God out there there are all manner of
02:52:4202:52:42 - things that people have to deal with in negotiating life with God in charge of our Affairs think about
02:52:5202:52:52 - this if if you were voting in an election generally you want to know what sort of person you would be giving the
02:53:0502:53:05 - right to set the environment for the choices you’ll be making so depending on what kind of person it
02:53:1302:53:13 - is you might end up with some with some really hard choices or with some really easy
02:53:1902:53:19 - choices so we tend to want to know everything we can learn in order to make best choices we
02:53:2602:53:26 - can now it’s the same thing when we’re talking about eternity there are all manner of candidates out there for what
02:53:3502:53:35 - God we want to serve the goal is not just what happens to us in this life even though a lot of
02:53:4302:53:43 - people think that that is what it’s about whether you’re having a good time living in this world or you’re
02:53:5102:53:51 - having a miserable time yes it doesn’t matter what quality of life we can have in this world to
02:53:5802:53:58 - some degree because if you can’t make any choices at all about eternity
02:54:0402:54:04 - then well it’s out of your hands what sort of Eternity you will have so the quality of life does matter to some
02:54:1302:54:13 - extent but it only matters because we have to make a choice about eternity life in this world is extraordinarily
02:54:2302:54:23 - temporary no one has managed to survive from the beginning of the human race until now so we can take for granted
02:54:3202:54:32 - everybody will die if you do believe in cryogenics and all the scientific mumbo jumbo about
02:54:4202:54:42 - eventually uh making it possible for human beings to live forever well I don’t think I can say much to you I
02:54:5002:54:50 - think that should that that does belong in the realm of Science Fiction and that is where it should
02:54:5602:54:56 - stay but if we know that we’re going to die and Eternity is a reality and the question we have to answer is with all
02:55:0702:55:07 - of these things claiming to be God and there are very many claims out there just as I believe it’s First Corinthians
02:55:1502:55:15 - says there are gods and Lords many for us who believe of course there is only one God but then if we’re going to
02:55:2402:55:24 - make the best choice for eternity it does matter who are we going to believe if anyone claims to be God how
02:55:3302:55:33 - do we know that their claim is true and if we choose to follow the scriptures well this is what the
02:55:3902:55:39 - scriptures tells us or tell us about who the true God is it tells us that he’s a trinity that there are three persons who
02:55:4902:55:49 - are in perfect unity and share one Essence so that they are one God now that might break your brain or it might
02:55:5702:55:57 - not whichever the case is it’s what the Bible says do you believe it is the question then it tells us that these
02:56:0502:56:05 - three persons have self- assigned roles to themselves in order to bring about the plan the objective that God had for
02:56:1402:56:14 - creating everything that exists and along the way in understanding his plan we come to see
02:56:2402:56:24 - that because of sin the father took the role of being the face of God to us the one who says who speaks to us uh
02:56:3702:56:37 - authoritatively as God he acts as God to was on behalf of the three of them and the Lord Jesus Took the role of the
02:56:4702:56:47 - servant of the father for our sakes in order to realize
02:56:5402:56:54 - our Redemption because of sin we have to keep that in mind it is because of sin that all of this is happening and the
02:57:0102:57:01 - Holy Spirit took up the role of empowering everything that God wants done in
02:57:0802:57:08 - creation so it is for this reason that we talk about the manifestations of God in creation it’s not just an academic
02:57:1702:57:17 - topic it’s not just an interesting thing to maybe waste a little time over since we’re Christians we have to talk
02:57:2202:57:22 - Christian stuff no there is a reason for exploring this we come to appreciate how intimately involved God has been with
02:57:3202:57:32 - this matter he’s not been absentee even though the father has been in the third heaven now keep that in mind even though
02:57:4102:57:41 - he is actually omnipresent just like the son is omnipresent and the Holy Spirit is omnipresent there is a symbolism here
02:57:4902:57:49 - there is a metaphor there is something they’re communicating with how they’ve arranged things the father being in the
02:57:5602:57:56 - third heaven is essentially to say I do not tolerate sin I must be separated from sin so that I can save
02:58:0802:58:08 - The Sinner that’s a very important lesson for us to show us that it is out of his love for the Sinners who are his
02:58:1602:58:16 - enemies that he separat himself from them to give them a chance to come to repentance so that they can be brought
02:58:2402:58:24 - back to him as his children and in order for them to be brought back as his children a member of
02:58:3202:58:32 - the Trinity has to play the role of the servant of the father in order to bring them home to their
02:58:4202:58:42 - father that’s exactly the role that Jesus plays that’s why we see this whole business of the Angel of the Lord and
02:58:4902:58:49 - and um the christophanies being theophanes and or theophanes being christophanies and all of that it’s not
02:58:5502:58:55 - just the nice intellectual exercise to have it is a description of God’s love for us something God did not have to do
02:59:0602:59:06 - one bit he didn’t have to create a single thing but he did because he is love and sharing himself with
02:59:1402:59:14 - intelligent creatures who are capable of making a choice to accept his gift or to deny or to reject his gift that is the
02:59:2402:59:24 - essence of his character that’s what we see in this matter so all this discussion that we are having is to put
02:59:3302:59:33 - us in the right position to appreciate that this person is the right God to serve of all the claims out there who
02:59:4402:59:44 - has gone as far as he has gone who has done what he has done how what wisdom has been demonstrated To Us by any other
02:59:5302:59:53 - God that even remotely matches what we have seen that that Jesus himself would play
02:59:5902:59:59 - the role not just of the servant but as the representative of the father in way that he did appearing to Moses appearing
03:00:0703:00:07 - to uh old time Old Testament Believers in all the ways that we have seen in order to bring that plan to pass that
03:00:1603:00:16 - required him to end up on the cross paying a very Dreadful price for our sin the the amount of thought that had to
03:00:2403:00:24 - have gone into that in order to see us become Believers and become children of God saved for all eternity that is what
03:00:3403:00:34 - we are exploring it’s not just a very nice um theological discussion where we can pick a camp and decide whether we
03:00:4503:00:45 - are trinitarians or not trinitarian Etc that’s um what I think I have that yeah um and uh it is a good sort of Koda
03:00:5803:00:58 - to this very long study that we are now concluding here is that when we get to the end of such things as these you know
03:01:0603:01:06 - if we have spent all this time and energy on this it does not go to waste because this is the stuff that spiritual
03:01:1303:01:13 - growth is made of um when we go through this it’s not you know academic as AI has been saying it is so that when we
03:01:2203:01:22 - study and learn about who God is we can use that understanding the spirit will use it as capital so to speak in our
03:01:3003:01:30 - heart to help us do what we’re supposed to as Christians this is the sort of thing that helps us better understand
03:01:3903:01:39 - God his purposes his plans and that in turn is what we’re here to do uh we have to learn this because it’s the only way
03:01:4703:01:47 - that we can actually serve God as he wishes for us so excellent discussion to recap here we are doing all of this
03:01:5403:01:54 - because this understanding we gain of God through this close study through all of the details that we’ve been going
03:02:0003:02:00 - over is what helps us to actually know him um know him as the Bible says not in some sort of Airy fairy sense of well I
03:02:0903:02:09 - I talk to God therefore I know him but we know what he is like and how he operates and what his goals and plans
03:02:1603:02:16 - are because then we can fit ourselves into what he wants us to do so we’ll close one sec in uh just a moment here
03:02:2403:02:24 - going over everything that we’ve done in this last section but this is a good stopping point for this study um it is
03:02:3103:02:31 - one of the most Central topics for us as Christians understanding exactly who God is uh specifically what Jesus did for us
03:02:3903:02:39 - there is almost nothing more Central than understanding the nature of the God we
03:02:4603:02:46 - serve all right all right so uh this review is going over everything that we’ve done in this last lesson here in
03:02:5403:02:54 - the study where we’ve been talking about actual appearances of Christ in the Old Testament so not just the concept of it
03:03:0003:03:00 - but actual occurrences by reading all these passages going over the appearances of the Angel of the Exodus
03:03:0703:03:07 - so the one who led the Israelites out of Egypt through the Wilderness to the promised land um we talked about all
03:03:1303:03:13 - these separate cases that we identified as clear christophanies the burning bush the column of cloud and fire the angel
03:03:2103:03:21 - sent before the Israelites to guard them on the way uh the being who spoke to Moses and the elders and and other
03:03:2703:03:27 - people face to face and the angel who is said to have led the Israelites out of Egypt on that Judges chapter two passage
03:03:3503:03:35 - all of these all of these point to the angel of the Lord who is a pre-incarnate Jesus Christ and then after that we
03:03:4103:03:41 - talked about um all sorts of references here uh to other appearances of the Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament
03:03:4903:03:49 - so wrestling with Jacob appearing to Abraham in Genesis Chapter 18 uh appearing to Joshua as the commander of
03:03:5503:03:55 - the Lord’s host in Joshua 5 uh you know appearing to Gideon in Judges chapter 6 the parents of Samson in Judges chapter
03:04:0303:04:03 - 13 these visions that we identified in Isaiah chapter 6 and Ezekiel chapter 1 and then zechariah’s vision of the Angel
03:04:1003:04:10 - of the Lord addressing the Lord of hosts as a different person in Zechariah Chapter 1 and we might go on even I’m
03:04:1703:04:17 - not not sure this has been completely comprehensive but in all of this we see that the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ has
03:04:2503:04:25 - been the messenger of the Father the one bearing of Father’s plan for us from the very beginning and that didn’t just
03:04:3303:04:33 - start after the Incarnation but it has always been the case and so um this concludes this particular study that
03:04:4003:04:40 - we’ve gone through here uh going over theology proper the study of God um his his nature his infinite nature his
03:04:4703:04:47 - perfect character and now his his uh how he is in the matter of the Trinity um three persons one Essence um all of
03:04:5603:04:56 - these things that we’ve gone over help us get that picture of who God really is and that in turn helps us understand
03:05:0303:05:03 - what he has done for us in redeeming Humanity out of our sins