All Members of the Trinity Are Deity

Video/audio transcript

00:0000:00 - hey guys so this lesson we are going to be talking about how all members of the Trinity are deity they are all Divine uh
00:0900:09 - partaking of the shared Divine Essence and so uh in the last lesson we had finished our kind of introduction to the
00:1800:18 - doctrine of the Trinity uh you know that God is three in person one in essence or one in essence and three in person
00:2400:24 - whichever order you want to take it those two things together are the fundamental definition of the Trinity
00:3100:31 - and so while the father is God and the son is God and the spirit is God the father is not the son or the spirit the
00:3800:38 - son is not the father or the spirit and the spirit is not the father or the son that is the definition of the Trinity um
00:4400:44 - and to help us kind of flesh out our understanding of it what we’re going to be doing here um is kind of
00:5200:52 - going through some things uh discussing about what the Trinity is not um so we’re going to be talking about what it
00:5800:58 - is not and that will help throw into sharper relief what the Trinity actually is at least that’s the idea so this week
01:0501:05 - here we’re just going to talk a little bit about that about why we’re doing that and then we’re going to hit the
01:0901:09 - first point here about you know how the Trinity does not function and so that is that God is one in essence but that does
01:1601:16 - not mean that there’s only one person in the Trinity um or sorry that only one person in the Trinity is deity or Divine
01:2401:24 - in essence um so we’re going to be talking about as sub points here that the father is God the son is God and the
01:2901:29 - Holy Spirit is God um so they are all Divine um they all share in that essence of deity and so that’s going to be
01:3601:36 - mostly what we talk about this time all right so before we get any further we’re just going to talk a
01:4401:44 - little bit more about this idea here um so as we kind of started with in the introduction here last lesson we did
01:5101:51 - give the basic definition of the Trinity that three in person one in essence or one in essence and three in person and
01:5701:57 - we shared the illustration of kind of the triangle Le here explaining how the Trinity Works in terms of its mechanics
02:0402:04 - and so in discussing it uh later on we’ll get to some of the analogies that Dr luginbill uses um imperfect as they
02:1202:12 - are um you know we will be examining the Trinity from multiple different facets but here to start uh having gone over
02:1802:18 - the basic definition what we’re going to do next is try to understand the Trinity better by first considering what it is
02:2502:25 - not in terms of the definition given above and so hopefully this will kind of help us Flex out what we mean when we
02:3102:31 - say that God is three in person and one in essence um rather than just stating that and like I don’t know that’s great
02:3802:38 - maybe we can say you know repeat those words but we kind of have to understand what it means for us to believe it
02:4302:43 - properly and so that’s going to kind of be what our focuses in the next several discussions flushing out this
02:4902:49 - understanding of what three in person one in essence means um in terms of uh particularly some false beliefs in the
02:5602:56 - past or or heresies that have come up to challenge uh the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity um and so that’s kind of
03:0303:03 - what we are going to be focusing on in the next little bit here um a do you have any thoughts on this approach or
03:1003:10 - shall we just go on and get right into it I think we can go on and get into it all right
03:2103:21 - great so the first one of these uh things that the Trinity is not or how the Trinity does not function um so the
03:2903:29 - of the first Counterpoint that we’re going to be arguing against to help us illuminate what the Trinity actually is
03:3503:35 - is this one here uh the key point being that God is one in essence but that does not mean that only one person of the
03:4203:42 - Trinity is deity um or has a divine nature um so God is three in person and all three persons of the Trinity so that
03:5003:50 - is the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are Divine heresies of the past which have challenged the Divinity of
03:5603:56 - the members of the Trinity include adoptionism this is a a past uh teaching or false belief of certain people and
04:0404:04 - adoptionism asserts that Christ is the Son of God only in the sense of adoption so just how human beings have adoption
04:1104:11 - well Christ was adopted as the Son of God rather than being God of course that is a dangerous false Doctrine because
04:1904:19 - you know our Salvation as Christians depends upon Christ being fully Divine and fully man paying for our sins upon
04:2604:26 - the cross as our substitute um and that can only happen if Christ was fully god um because um you know there’s some
04:3604:36 - mechanics in the atonement there maybe we won’t get off in the weeds but you know this is very important stuff right
04:4004:40 - you can’t you can’t get these things wrong um so that’s adoptionism um and then there was also something called the
04:4704:47 - ebionite heresy uh teaching that Christ only had only a human nature empowered by God’s spirit um so we’re not going to
04:5304:53 - get into the nitty-gritty of some of these things you’re certainly welcome to uh you know research them on the
04:5904:59 - internet find some some past teachings past a certain point they’re mostly only useful for us in terms of uh kind of
05:0705:07 - discussing what the Trinity actually is so uh Jesus was not adopted by God and Jesus didn’t have and Jesus didn’t only
05:1405:14 - have a human nature that was somehow kind of specially empowered he had a full divine nature as well um so those
05:2105:21 - are the the things that kind of help us describe what we mean by uh you know all three members of the Trinity uh share in
05:2805:28 - the divine nature or they’re all deity it’s well it’s not these things right and there’s a third one here as well
05:3405:34 - that we’re going to just briefly touch on that’s called Unitarianism which kind of asserts that
05:3905:39 - uh there’s one personality of God um denying the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit um and so uh there are probably
05:4705:47 - other heresies besides you know this is just a sampling that ikus had here to kind of make this point and emphasize
05:5405:54 - that God is one in essence but that does not mean that only one person in the Trinity is deity because they all share
06:0006:00 - in the same Divine Essence um so we’re going to go ahead and read some verses here um there is you know quite a lot of
06:0706:07 - scripture that we could probably pull in here uh we’re certainly not trying to be exhaustive and that’s going to be true
06:1206:12 - for all of the scripture we read for uh much of the support that we have in this lesson and the following ones here um
06:1806:18 - but we’re just going to go ahead and go through some uh Ai and I may discuss some of the passages if we think them
06:2306:23 - noteworthy um or maybe harder to line up with the points we’re trying to make but um it’s just good for for us to get in
06:3006:30 - that habit of just tying everything directly back to the Bible so that’s what we’re going to do here um there’s
06:3606:36 - quite a list here but you know there’s nothing wrong with us keeping the focus directly on the Bible so that’s what
06:4106:41 - we’re going to do for the next little bit here as we go through these lessons so I’ll start here with Isaiah chapter
06:4706:47 - 63 um I’ll probably open these in a separate window just so I can see the full passage here um so Isaiah chapter
06:5506:55 - 63 picking up at verse 9 UM and again this is establishing the point here that um all members of the Trinity are Divine
07:0507:05 - so Isaiah 63: 9 through 14 so says in all their Affliction he was afflicted and the angel of his presence saved them
07:1407:14 - in his love and his Mercy he redeemed them and he lifted them and carried them all the days of old but they rebelled
07:2007:20 - and grieved his holy spirit therefore he turned himself to become their enemy he fought against them then his people
07:2607:26 - remembered the days of old of Moses where is where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the Shepherds of his
07:3307:33 - flock where is he who put his holy spirit in the midst of them who caused his glorious arm to go at the right hand
07:3907:39 - of Moses who divided the waters before them to make for himself an everlasting name who led them through the depths
07:4607:46 - like the horse in the wilderness they did not stumble as the cattle which go down into the valley the spirit of the
07:5107:51 - lord gave them rest so you led your people to make for yourself a glorious name so um this is Isaiah one of the
08:0108:01 - Major Prophets um you can certainly see references in this passage to the spirit of of God and remember this is the Old
08:0808:08 - Testament um and uh we have discussed a little bit last time about how the Old Testament does speak of the Trinity you
08:1708:17 - know the Shadows are there it’s supposed to lead us to question um to maybe have a sliver in the back of our mind that
08:2408:24 - there is more to this than you know there just being uh one God you know um uh uh in terms of monotheistic religion
08:3308:33 - that there are there’s something there right Ai and I kind of expressed that last week um so aie do you have thoughts
08:4008:40 - on this passage and how we’re tying it into um the point of all three members of the Trinity sharing in Divine Essence
08:4908:49 - yeah um not not much right now because I think this one is um it’s it’s almost as if it’s focused
08:5908:59 - but particularly on the Father the angel of his presence is um not very he is there but he’s not prominent
09:0809:08 - the angel of his presence is is spoken of as you know essentially a messenger but a special messenger obviously we
09:1509:15 - know that from other scriptures um then the his holy spirit of course the angle from which I’m looking at things is
09:2409:24 - there are people who um are are very big on how there is just one person in the
09:3309:33 - godhead and he wears so many hats you know so once we are looking at such people this passage may not be all that
09:4009:40 - convincing to them um ex except for the the fact that we talked about the angel of his presence and they dismiss that
09:4509:45 - angel as being a separate person from God himself so but yes this is one very solid passage that tells you that the
09:5209:52 - Trinity was involved in what happened with the Deliverance of the um The Exodus generation
09:5909:59 - of the of Israel so definitely there is much that is said right here um but it will take a bit of getting into tying in
10:1010:10 - with other passages to demonstrate very clearly what we’re talking about I mean and it’s one of those things where you
10:1710:17 - can see the trinity in scripture but you can also see where people throw it out right if they don’t if they don’t
10:2510:25 - interpret passages so for example here in verse 11 when we say he who put his holy spirit right um does that mean that
10:3310:33 - it is you know we as Believers in the Trinity um and we’ll get other passages isn’t like it you know Rises and falls
10:4110:41 - on this passage alone but we would interpret this as you know the father sending the spirit right um and people
10:4810:48 - who believe in a more monotheistic interpretation you know one person and the godhead would say well it’s not a
10:5510:55 - separate person it’s just his Spirit we’ll get into this more um and part of the problem is it’s kind of hard to talk
11:0011:00 - about all this in terms of like right Doctrine without hitting all the facets at once this one specifically we’re
11:0511:05 - trying to argue that they’re all Divine we do have another lesson that we will be going through talking about how they
11:1011:10 - are actually all distinct persons they’re not just modes or aspect of a single person um we’ll get to that
11:1811:18 - that’s a next lesson but um you we’ll keep going I I don’t want to get blocked but I just reading lots of scripture is
11:2411:24 - the correct approach to help us kind of get that context here so this one from the New Testament Matthew chapter 3 um
11:3211:32 - so um very clear passage here for the the um uh sort of divine sunship is what we would say right this is Jesus’s
11:4111:41 - baptism by John the Baptist the spirit of God uh descending right so again this is mention of the spirit specifically
11:5011:50 - but also Jesus is described here as the Son of God and we mentioned that there is this concept
11:5611:56 - of adoptionism um but but this passage doesn’t say um you know actually I don’t want to get
12:0312:03 - too far off topic but there’s this other passage in the Bible that talks about like this day I have begotten you do you
12:0912:09 - know what I’m talking about aie um yes Bo it’s very vexing because people who get into some of the trinitarian
12:1612:16 - heresies talk about the Eternal beginning of the Sun and all that nonsense and what that passage is
12:2112:21 - talking about is the Incarnation right but you can see here in the baptism that what we’re actually getting at is that
12:2712:27 - Jesus is the son of God did become the Son of God he is the Son of God um so yeah I don’t know if there’s too much
12:3412:34 - more to say here but definitely a passage where you see the spirit of God descending like a dove uh you know very
12:4012:40 - uh strong visual imagery here but also of course that well Jesus is the son of God you know very clear proof text right
12:4812:48 - um so I believe Matthew 28:19 this next one this is the Great Commission um you know baptizing them into um I this this
12:5612:56 - will come up again in one of the other lessons ich this uh talks about this preposition here being into um and then
13:0313:03 - the idiom of the name of or the person of the father and the Son and the Holy Spirit we’re talking about spiritual
13:0713:07 - baptism here although of course many people in the church teach that this is water baptism but what we’re actually
13:1413:14 - talking about is baptizing them into the person of God um the the the Trinity uh in United um as the three persons um so
13:2413:24 - it’s stronger the trinitarian connection is stronger when you understand that actually because you’re saying that
13:3013:30 - you’re baptizing them into God as a singular person right they’re all God um and that’s different than just like it
13:3813:38 - being some magic incantation you do when you baptize people with water um indeed
13:4613:46 - indeed all right keep going so that there’s that that um equation of the father to the Son and the spirit in that
13:5513:55 - passage which is very significant if if the the if the other two as some people like to say were subordinate to the
14:0314:03 - father then why why is it the name or the person of the three rather than the name or the person of the
14:1114:11 - father that’s yeah and actually in Greek this is what we would call probably I don’t know like a Distributive
14:1814:18 - construction I don’t want to just make up words I don’t know if that’s an actual grammatical term but you can take
14:2214:22 - the name of um you know the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit the name goes kind of all three
14:2914:29 - right it’s not like you have the name of the father and then the Son and the Holy Spirit are separate it’s the name of the
14:3414:34 - father and they kind of implied the name of the son and the name of the holy spirit this is why we get that that
14:3914:39 - preposition being into is so important um from like it’s not a a wrote formula we’re talking about the mechanics of of
14:4814:48 - becoming part of the body of Christ baptism into god um and so you know like you said this passage will come back up
14:5714:57 - um it’s actually used in one of the other lessons is talking about the equality between the members of the
15:0215:02 - Trinity like you were saying but I it’s hard to discuss all this without getting to all of the bits but um we shall we
15:0815:08 - shall carry on um so John chapter 14 this time um so this is Jesus asking the father for the helper right here you
15:1715:17 - actually see again all three members of the Trinity this is one of those passages that’s really hard to explain
15:2415:24 - of if there’s obviously Jesus In this passage who we know clearly to be God in fact Jesus in my opinion is one of the
15:3115:31 - easiest members of the Trinity I think the spirit is harder to see sometimes because you know in John chapter one you
15:3815:38 - know the word being God is like it’s it’s right there right Very Yes um but here you actually see that Jesus who we
15:4515:45 - know is God from that passage and others is asking the father um obviously separate from him right to give another
15:5315:53 - helper which is the spirit right and verse 17 says it is the spirit right right and the father can’t be the Helper
16:0116:01 - because that doesn’t make any sense and Jesus can’t be the Helper because he’s asking for it right you see this is
16:0616:06 - where it comes from um and I feel like sometimes people kind of what’s the right way to say this they like they
16:1316:13 - make light of the evidence that we have right in the Bible and so if you remember last time one of the points we
16:1816:18 - made um that I said ikus makes is that ikus is very dismissive of this idea that like you can’t get the Trinity from
16:2516:25 - the Bible you know that it was like something that took for people to understand and believe or whatever like
16:3116:31 - basically like no one actually believed in the Trinity until like the Council of Na or something I think that was 325 my
16:3716:37 - days could be a little long but like that’s just nonsense because like if you read this verse and I mean like does it
16:4416:44 - help that we have church Traditions helping inform us of the doctrine of the Trinity okay fine sure but like it’s
16:5016:50 - right there in scripture you know we’re not making huge jumps in logic to get there
16:5616:56 - um this is one of those it’s right there yeah exactly as a matter of fact um I think I don’t know if it was this
17:0617:06 - passage or another but I faced off with someone some years ago who was insisting that Jesus is the father and the Holy
17:1417:14 - Spirit is is the same that you know he was going off of God is spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in
17:2217:22 - spirit and in truth so he was like well if God is Spirit the father is the Holy Spirit and Jesus is the father and so on
17:2817:28 - and so for it was I I faced off with when I was like when you look at this passage it’s pretty it’s like very
17:3417:34 - straightforward was this passage and probably another one I will ask the father you it’s not I
17:4217:42 - won’t ask myself I’m going to ask somebody outside of me and that person will give another helper that’s helper
17:4917:49 - that’s not me and very clearly if I’m asking this person for another helper I’m not asking
17:5717:57 - this person for him himself yeah I’m asking for somebody else so if if nothing else this passage should make it
18:0518:05 - very clear that there are three persons in view not one certainly not two so we have we never I think it’s like when
18:1618:16 - when Muslims would would quarrel with the fact that the Trinity is not in the Bible it’s like why does it have to be
18:2218:22 - in the Bible we did not smuggle it into the scriptures this is what you read out of the scriptures
18:3018:30 - and for ease of communication we just named it the Trinity but it is a thing that’s evident in the Bible itself it’s
18:3918:39 - hardly worth a lot of talking about and I think this is why theology as a study on EES is so short because it’s like
18:4718:47 - these things are too obvious they are manifestly obvious once you look at look into the Bible for
18:5318:53 - yourself yeah all right onwards you know what we will touch on all of this again you know
19:0019:00 - uh this first section I guess this section will be a little bit long as we go through but it it’s not bad to repeat
19:0619:06 - ourselves some in establishing the points um so right uh the parallelism here this is uh the passage in Ephesians
19:1519:15 - chapter 12 that talks about how even though we all have gifts our Ministries may be different actually important in
19:2019:20 - not shoehorning people into like for example um in the modern Church uh people think that pastors have to be a
19:2719:27 - very specific way that’s just not there in scripture um but if you look at this we have three-fold repetition here right
19:3519:35 - Same Spirit same Lord same God right who works things in all persons um you know I I would say strongest evidence is that
19:4419:44 - we have spirit and Lord here um separate Divine um yeah the second Corinthians chapter 13 verse 14 um this is one of
19:5519:55 - those uh kind of I’m not sure if this is the very end of second Corinthians but it’s kind of like one of the
20:0020:00 - benedictions here very common uh you know like I think Peter starts with one too that talks it mentions all three
20:0620:06 - people in the Trinity right um so beginnings and ends of a lot of the Epistles you’ll see this um the grace of
20:1220:12 - the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and The Fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all right all three
20:1820:18 - of them are mentioned here directly um yeah yeah and again if you just think about this in terms of the analogies are
20:2620:26 - imperfect but if you’re kind of name not name dropping what’s the right way um if you’re talking about someone in terms of
20:3420:34 - their titles and their attributes it doesn’t make sense to like mention the same person like three times like this
20:3920:39 - right um you know like it would just be like uh it just is nonsensical the only way that this sort of uh this sort of
20:4820:48 - greeting or this sort of um um it’s the opposite of greeting like I’m thinking of like the the Latin word for I can’t
20:5720:57 - think of the English one valuations valuations huh um but whatever what you say to people when you’re telling them
21:0221:02 - goodbye um uh that this formula comes up so often it just doesn’t make sense unless you have the Trinity there um
21:1221:12 - yeah yeah all right just several more um Ephesians chapter 4 verse chapter verses four through six um
21:2421:24 - so you know one body and one Spirit one Lord One Faith one baptism one God and Father of all this one’s actually
21:3221:32 - probably worthy of a bit more discussion because it seems to be emphasizing the Oneness here right um shared Divine
21:3921:39 - Essence um but just because there’s one Spirit doesn’t mean that God is one in the sense of not having three persons um
21:5221:52 - it’s it’s just one of those places where it’s stamped again like all the other passages we saw one one common
21:5821:58 - denominator of all the passages that we saw is the fact that in in one piece of text you see three persons or at least
22:0822:08 - three times The Mention Of God in several different ways so you have like in this case one Spirit one Lord one God
22:2022:20 - and Father you know you could make of that whatever you want but in the end there are three mentions here
22:2822:28 - and these three mentions follow the same largely the same formula May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and uh the love
22:3822:38 - of God and The Fellowship of the holy spirit so we when you compare that to what we just saw in Ephesians 4 it goes
22:4722:47 - um one Spirit one Lord one God and Father you you go back to Matthew 28 as well and it said in the name of the
22:5722:57 - father father and which we see in Ephesians 4 again where it says one God and
23:0423:04 - Father of the son and we see the sun replaced by Lord and of the spirit the spirit is a constant factor in all of
23:1323:13 - these so it’s like you keep seeing this it’s it’s there and it’s telling you see this and understand it it’s right in
23:2123:21 - your face it’s not hidden anymore not like it was in the in the Old Testament it’s right there glaring so yes not so
23:2923:29 - far a field yes just just a point of clarity the word Lord here in the Greek is the Greek word cuos um so I pulled it
23:3823:38 - up here here’s a concordance that shows it and of note here specifically in terms of the parallelism that ai’s
23:4323:43 - noting is that this word here definitely referring to Jesus Christ right Spirit Christ God the father right like you
23:5023:50 - said right there um now of course this word can actually be applied to God proper so for example up here uh you
23:5823:58 - know as the Angel um you know uh like you see it used it where it’s less clear that is is Christ
24:0724:07 - but um it is used very clearly of Christ and you know in context here that’s what we would understand this to be um so
24:1424:14 - yeah I mean like you said it’s right there right um yeah I believe this is First Peter I think I actually mentioned
24:2124:21 - this passage this is another one of those another one of those things in salutation mentioned all three members
24:2824:28 - of the Trinity just super clear right why would you word it this way if they were all the same person you wouldn’t um
24:3724:37 - yeah yeah it doesn’t it doesn’t make a lot of sense to word it that way especially given all the repetitions
24:4324:43 - that we keep seeing I mean this is a lot of passages and they’re all written by different people Matthew was written by
24:5224:52 - Matthew we just read Paul we now see Peter there was John as well and all of them are following largely the same
25:0025:00 - formula y there is God who is also called the father there is Jesus Christ who is every every now and then in in
25:1125:11 - different places replaced by the word Lord and then there’s the spirit that’s always the spirit so it’s like I mean if
25:1925:19 - this whole thing is puzzling to you it’s got to say well there is something being said here that you should notice that’s
25:2725:27 - one definite thing about it all right and last we’re going to pick up this is another one of those greetings here you
25:3525:35 - know mentioned the greetings and the whatever the opposite of greetings are called I think there’s a word for it in
25:3925:39 - English it’s escaped me um but um we have Grace and peace from him who is and he who was and who is to come right um
25:4825:48 - from the seven spirits before his throne from Jesus Christ and his God and Father right yeah yeah right there again
25:5825:58 - um so um yeah this has been an excellent introduction you know we’ll probably hit these passages they will come up as we
26:0526:05 - make other points about the Trinity but you can just see um by way of introduction even to these this concept
26:1226:12 - of things the Trinity is not it’s all over the place in the New Testament um for sure you know that first passage we
26:1826:18 - read that was in Isaiah too um it’s it’s more there in Shadows we talked about that right something that leaves a
26:2526:25 - question mark about how exactly what is it mean for Elohim to be plural right is it just a plural of majesty or When God
26:3126:31 - says let us make man in our image you know it’s plural you know it’s there it leaves that it leaves that tendency to
26:3926:39 - be like what exactly does this mean um and then in the New Testament boom right here everywhere we see this this talking
26:4726:47 - about God in terms of Threes it’s just all over the place um yeah yeah all right well that is our
26:5626:56 - general introduction here to pull this back maybe it seems like I don’t know that not all of these passages are so
27:0227:02 - directly hitting this one about how uh God is all you know all three members of the Trinity are uh share the the same
27:1027:10 - Divine Essence they’re all deity um one of the stronger arguments uh just to kind of close this out in summary is
27:1527:15 - probably that that the one from the Great Commission you know we mentioned they’re all mentioned uh if we expected
27:2227:22 - that one of them weren’t Divine or that there was subordination within the Trinity they’re they’re kind of like all
27:2827:28 - in the same breath here right the father and the Son and the Holy Spirit you know just you know one right after the other
27:3427:34 - not the father and then I don’t know exactly how else you would say it in the Greek if you were trying to show
27:3927:39 - subordination but not this right um I mean I think anyone who who has issues with actually seeing the equality of the
27:4827:48 - three can see that how ridiculous it would be to go baptizing them in the name of the father and of Angel Michael
27:5427:54 - and Angel Gabriel because at that point you instantly see the the Ridiculousness of what you’ve
28:0028:00 - just done you’ve equated two wellknown subordinates of the father of God to God I mean right you wouldn’t put them on
28:1028:10 - the same level as the father but here we have the Bible actually saying it’s like um when Paul says uh just like the
28:1928:19 - greeting we saw in Revelation just now um grace to you and peace from God the father and the Lord Jesus Christ like um
28:2728:27 - okay would you say that would you replace Jesus with any other name there and have that make any sense you you
28:3328:33 - know what I think reminds me of this reminds me of a little bit um in history you know like when kings knighted people
28:3928:39 - or whatever there’s kind of like this ritual the formula that goes along with it or whatever or they’re giving people
28:4428:44 - rewards so they’re like in the Name of the King you do this or in the Name of the King you do that now just imagine
28:5028:50 - there’s this dude off the street who walks in and says in the Name of the King and in my name you know well take
28:5728:57 - seriously you know it’s just like it doesn’t carry the power and the authority and you know we talked about
29:0229:02 - this when we were talking about God’s Essence as the de facto and de jur ruler of the universe he is the king the king
29:0929:09 - of kings and Lord of lords that’s what we’re talking about here right and so yeah when we have this sort of and
29:1629:16 - especially like I said the the argument we’re making here in Matthew chapter 28 hits so much harder when you understand
29:2329:23 - that what we’re talking about is spiritual baptism into the body of Christ not just a ritual it is uh yes I
29:3229:32 - want to use the word ontological that’s pretty strong philosophical Jaron but you know it’s a matter of our who we are
29:3829:38 - our being um our station how we’re connected with the body of Christ you know it’s a it’s a big powerful thing
29:4429:44 - and for that to be something that happens with all three members they have to be divine they have to be God that’s
29:5129:51 - the only way it works um yes yes all right well I think we have discussed a lot of good things here but
30:0130:01 - this is where we’ll leave this bit and uh you know the next ones is not that we haven’t already had passages here but
30:0630:06 - we’re just going to go establish that uh all three members of the Trinity are in fact Divine um that’s where we’ll turn
30:1330:13 - our Focus the next little bit all right so uh before we move on actually to the next slide in this
30:2030:20 - series uh we had some good questions about just clarifying certain aspects of the verses that we’ve just been going
30:2730:27 - through um so one of the first questions here um kind of getting at that concept that we talked about maybe people have
30:3530:35 - an easier time kind of intuitively understanding how the son is separate from the father um but the Holy
30:4130:41 - Spirit can kind of be tricky for us to wrap our heads around um you know we see these passages where he’s discussed as
30:4730:47 - you know the third person but what is it what does it mean for you know God to be spirit and yet you know we have God the
30:5630:56 - Holy Spirit and you know how exactly does that work I think one thing that will help us here is that God
31:0331:03 - fundamentally is not like us he’s not like the Angels either so when we talk about human beings we say that we have
31:0931:09 - um the Flesh and the spirit um right we at least ik this teaches as do I um that we are dichotomous beings we have flesh
31:1731:17 - and spirit um we are souls biblically speaking that word that we translate as Soul can also be translated as mind or
31:2531:25 - life um and so we are uh flesh and spirit together compose uh who we are as individuals and that is what the soul is
31:3431:34 - not to get too often the WS there but um point being when we talk about human spirits that is like the part of us that
31:4031:40 - is not physical fleshly um but human beings are composed of both flesh and spirit in fact um it’s an important
31:4831:48 - Doctrine in terms of our resurrection that we will be resurrected into bodies rather than um being
31:5431:54 - incorporeal uh boy that’s a big word um God fundamentally is God God’s not like this right Jesus actually has a human
32:0432:04 - nature it’s very one of the things that ought to blow our minds about the Incarnation and the Dual nature of
32:0932:09 - Christ being fully God and fully man is that he actually does have a human nature um but he also has the Divine
32:1632:16 - Essence of God and that’s what we’ve been talking about here um so maybe all of this doesn’t maybe it doesn’t help
32:2232:22 - right but what I’m trying to get at is that God doesn’t have like I don’t know like his his Spirit as something that’s
32:3032:30 - like separate from his being generally not in the same way that we as humans do because our beings are not composed just
32:3732:37 - of spirit um and also I’m trying to think about the right way to phrase this too we talked some
32:4432:44 - about how God isn’t part of SpaceTime um and so when we say that Angels Are Spiritual they’re also Bound by
32:5132:51 - SpaceTime and I I I think we spent some time a you might remember better than me we spent some time talking about that
32:5732:57 - right um a angels are not as constrained as we are in certain ways but they’re also like they’re not like God too um
33:0733:07 - and so Angels Are Spiritual yes but they’re also not spiritual how God is spiritual so I don’t know if I’m helping
33:1433:14 - much other than just saying God is very different than us right um and I think how we talk about it kind of conditions
33:2133:21 - maybe how hard it is for us to understand so a how about how about you go for a bit here see if you
33:2733:27 - it so I want to assure you that the way you you describe it is exactly right um the the spirituality of God the reason
33:3733:37 - John John chapter 4 talks about God being a spirit is to was specifically to tell the woman at the well of
33:4633:46 - SAA that God was not limited by location the woman had been asking are we supposed to Worship in the
33:5633:56 - temple in Jerusalem or on the mountains and Jesus was telling her it makes no difference to God where you
34:0634:06 - worship because he himself is not bound by any location that was what he was saying to
34:1334:13 - her so it wasn’t so much that God is a spirit so that you start thinking well that must mean that God is the Holy
34:2434:24 - Spirit and the father is is the holy spirit Jesus is the holy spirit because the holy spirit is spirit it’s talking
34:3234:32 - about what type of being so to speak and we have to be very careful about that word what type of being God is that’s
34:4134:41 - what it’s saying and that is to say strictly speaking the father is a spirit the son is a spir is a spirit the holy
34:5434:54 - spirit is a spirit so it’s not that that God is a spirit and somehow we have to equate the father and the son to the
35:0235:02 - holy spirit for that reason now holy spirit is a title that the Bible has given to us for the third person of the
35:1235:12 - Trinity it is not in any way a description or a definition of the type of God’s being it’s just the title given
35:2135:21 - to the third person of the Trinity as a matter of fact the only name personal name that we have for God at all in the
35:3035:30 - scriptures is Jesus Christ Jesus not well Christ Christ is the title too and think about it that name is speaking of
35:4035:40 - the fact that God is the savior of the human race we don’t have a name in the scriptures just as my name is Odie and
35:5135:51 - Steven’s name is Steven we don’t have one for God in the Bible apart from Jesus Christ we have
35:5835:58 - titles for God we have descriptive um uh names too like we the the closest you can get we have the the
36:0936:09 - you know the tetragramaton in that’s what I was just talk about we have the the I am name but that I am name is
36:1836:18 - speaking to what deity is and basically that was God saying to Moses I am the true God because I am
36:2736:27 - that which is and will always be and will never change that was he was made basically making a claim to Moses I am
36:3736:37 - the true God so when you go to the Israelites tell them that the true God sent you to them that’s the the name by
36:4436:44 - which I will be known that is I’m laying claim to deity and everything that calls itself deity is alive before me so we we
36:5436:54 - get to hear God make a claim to what it is which is self-existence that he he exists entirely on his own will that he
37:0237:02 - is not subject to any external influence he will never change has never changed will never and and is not changing
37:1037:10 - that’s what he was saying to um Moses at that point and once once you you you understand all of this you come to
37:1837:18 - appreciate for example when um Jacob asked the Lord when he was wrestling with him what is your name and he said
37:2537:25 - why do you ask him my name saying it’s too wonderful for you you you you can’t know me that intimately just yet because
37:3437:34 - that that degree of intimacy is too much for you to bear and and it’s true we can’t bear it in the flesh it will take
37:4037:40 - our actually um being removed from this body or being in the resurrection body we basically have to be outside of this
37:4837:48 - flesh to be able to experience God in that degree of intimacy but the point is that when the Bible talks about God
37:5737:57 - being a spirit it’s not saying God is the holy spirit it’s saying that that is the type of being that he is now just as
38:0838:08 - Stephen has said too there’s a difference between God’s spirituality and spirituality of everything that
38:1338:13 - exists and we have to be very clear about this apart from Flora I think that refers to plant life everything else on
38:2238:22 - Earth has a spirit that’s that’s one thing we have to pay attention to Ecclesiastes is very
38:2838:28 - clear that even animals possess a spirit so um angels are spirits human beings are spirits that live in in bodies you
38:3838:38 - know can I cut in here for a sec I think this will really help it’s because spirit in the Bible I pulled up both the
38:4438:44 - Hebrew word here ruak and the Greek word Numa both of these and this is such a such a huge thing and it’s you can’t
38:5238:52 - miss it because the same word used for Spirit in both the old test and the New Testament they have the same
38:5838:58 - connotations even across the two languages and Greek and Hebrew are very dissimilar languages right Hebrew is
39:0239:02 - Semitic Greek is indoan etc etc um but it means breath as well things that are alive have Spirits spirit and breath are
39:1339:13 - synonymous now um Audie has been talking about the title and the the you know sort of this distinction between names
39:1939:19 - and titles the Holy Spirit as we’ve said it’s a title and what it gets to um and this is one of those critical things
39:2639:26 - when we talk about the roles in the Trinity uh the adopted roles that how we relate to the Trinity um in their plan
39:3239:32 - for mankind the spirit is the Unseen empowerer right just how the wind has its effects it’s not for no reason that
39:4139:41 - this title was chosen is what we’re saying exactly exactly that’s an excellent way to to describe that I
39:4839:48 - think that actually puts P to that question so um bottom line is when we see in John chapter 4 God is a spirit
39:5539:55 - it’s not telling us in any way that we should restrict the understanding of the godhead to just the Holy Spirit um I was
40:0440:04 - going to point out too that there are different types of spirits so to speak there Angelic Spirits there are human
40:1040:10 - Spirits there are animal spirits and then there is God God is a spirit in the sense of not being part of the creation
40:1840:18 - that he made he is not anything like the universe so his spirituality and the spirituality of angels are
40:2740:27 - Worlds Apart they’re not even similar in that sense because the spirituality of of angels was created the spiritually
40:3540:35 - the spirituality of God is what he is it’s an uncreated thing I will also say that I think yeah I I think one other
40:4440:44 - point to make here um I’m just trying to put my finger on what I was trying to say earlier was that it God doesn’t have
40:5140:51 - anything other than Spirit right and I made this point with humans right but it’s not like you talk about the spirit
40:5740:57 - of God as if God exists you know as if it’s just like part of God right um you know like God has some other thing and
41:0441:04 - then God has his Spirit right God is Spirit you know in the in the Divine spirit that we’re talking about here as
41:1041:10 - distinct from the other types that Audi’s mentioned um I don’t know if that if that helps
41:1641:16 - but like you can’t disentangle it is the thing and when we talk about the capital T Holy Spirit yeah that was a very good
41:2441:24 - point particularly too because of when people say that the father sends his Spirit as if he has something other than
41:3141:31 - Spirit yeah he is spirit so if the father is sending the spirit it is Spirit sending Spirit that’s just how it
41:3941:39 - how that works there is no other but in terms of what we would call Essence or ontology or whatever to use the big
41:4541:45 - words but like but that’s not even what those pastors are getting at when we say the father sends the spirit what we’re
41:5041:50 - talking about is the father sending the third person of the Trinity as the helper exactly and that’s the point
41:5641:56 - that’s the point that is just to say that it’s not like the father is like the body something and the spirit is his
42:0542:05 - Spirit I’ve heard those arguments and what you said really gets at the heart of them which is God is not made up of
42:1242:12 - multiple parts and and one part of his is is the spirit that he sends forth or something of that sort what we are
42:1842:18 - saying essentially is that the definition of God in terms of type of being is Spirit that’s what the Bible
42:2742:27 - tells us so we should stop thinking in terms of oh because the Bible says God is a spirit there must be some way of
42:3542:35 - reconciling the fact that he is called Holy Spirit and he is called father and he’s also called Jesus Christ it must be
42:4242:42 - that the holy spirit is the spirit of the father as if the father were an empty husk that has a spirit like we
42:5142:51 - human beings we have a spirit or we are a spirit living in a body or something we are made of two comp components or
43:0043:00 - something of that sort well just to just to rip on it even more it actually makes no sense from a I want to say
43:0643:06 - philosophical point of view maybe that’s not quite the right word but if God is being and we just use this point that
43:1243:12 - things that are alive have breath you see where I’m going with this right yeah how can God not be alive you
43:1943:19 - know it doesn’t make sense that’s why God has to be spirit I hope I’m not pushing the the the words connotation
43:2443:24 - too far here but you see where going right that there’s no way in which God is somehow not Spirit you know because
43:3143:31 - that’s that’s what defines existence that’s what defines being um yes at least in the Eternal sense um so yes um
43:4043:40 - yes so that that that that makes a that makes a a great deal of sense okay um it looks like Lisa had a follow-up question
43:5143:51 - so her follow-up question here was why couldn’t the Spirit come while Jesus was here if they’re separate beings so I I
43:5843:58 - don’t think it’s a matter of couldn’t as this is more a question of why didn’t the father send the spirit until after
44:0544:05 - Jesus was ascended and that’s not a matter of could or could not that’s a matter of God’s choice in perfect timing
44:1344:13 - right because God go ahead sorry I’m sorry I’m cutting in but the Holy Spirit was actually here on Earth with Jesus at
44:2244:22 - the same time not only was he he actually I mean the Bible tells us the spirit of God came to rest upon Jesus at
44:2944:29 - at the baptism there was also the fact that the disciples were sent forth with a portion of the spirit on them there
44:3844:38 - was John the Baptist at the same time whom of whom it was recorded in Luke that the spirit of God was upon him from
44:4844:48 - the womb so I’m not sure I’m not sure we have any basis on which to say that the Holy Spirit was not here at this same
44:5644:56 - time that Jesus was they were both on Earth I know I know what the question is getting at though right why didn’t the
45:0345:03 - Holy Spirit personally indwell most humans until after Pentecost right I it’s more along the lines right because
45:1045:10 - even people in the old test like David had the Holy Spirit right um Samuel right prophets and we know that the
45:1745:17 - restraining Ministry of the Holy Spirit has always been present since the beginning and when it’s removed I think
45:2245:22 - it’s what second Thessalonians talks about it first Thessalonians maybe you know the remove
45:2745:27 - yes yeah um the removal of the Restraint of the Holy Spirit things will go south real quick and that is the impact of the
45:3445:34 - spirit being here spirit’s always been here right but I I I mean I can’t speak for Lisa but I’m guessing that the
45:3945:39 - question is more what about you know like when we have these passages that says that um Jesus is asking the father
45:4745:47 - to send the helper right um why why wasn’t the helper sent before that maybe that’s more where we’re going here um
45:5745:57 - okay can we confirm confirm that uh although we will of course discuss that question as well but yeah Lisa says Lisa
46:0546:05 - says that’s what it is yeah okay so go on then uh well more to me I think this gets into the wisdom of the plan of God
46:1546:15 - um you know uh could people have been indwelt by the holy spirit before Jesus ascended answer to that seems to be
46:2646:26 - well I mean we certainly had people who acted under the influence of the holy spirit before this point right um I I
46:3346:33 - think part of it is that you know it’s the whole Paradigm Shift of we are no longer under the law we’re we’re
46:4046:40 - dwelling under grace Christ has ascended we are positionally our sin has been blotted out in the Book of Life we are
46:4746:47 - right with the father reconciled to God and we have that Unity um I see the think I’m not sure that the phrasing
46:5546:55 - could could not is necessarily the right way to look at this so much as it’s a uh being sealed with the Holy Spirit under
47:0247:02 - the New Covenant is the sign of reconciliation with God maybe that’s too hand wavy but um I’m interested to see
47:1047:10 - what you say um okay so um there’s John chapter 7 verse 39 and it goes but this he spoke
47:2047:20 - concerning the spirit whom those believing in him would receive for the Holy Spirit was not yet given
47:2647:26 - because Jesus was not yet glorified okay so um the answer is right there might take a little bit of
47:3447:34 - unpacking to actually you know see what it’s saying but the answer is right there on the face of it Jesus was not
47:4147:41 - yet glorified therefore the spirit was not yet given we know that in fact Jesus said to the disciples um the Holy Spirit
47:4947:49 - who will be in you he is with you now but he will be in you later that’s what he said to them just before he went to
47:5747:57 - the Cross that’s in John chapter 16 I believe it’s somewhere between John 14 and John 16
48:0348:03 - so what is this um he’s not yet being glorified talking about let’s remember what’s going on in the
48:1448:14 - story We Are by Nature God’s enemies we’re Rebels and while some of us don’t quite
48:2448:24 - well not some of us General we just don’t really get what’s happening the the relationship that God’s Free Will
48:3248:32 - creatures were supposed to have with him is one of intimacy it’s symbolized by marriage the same way that a man and a
48:4048:40 - woman come together and become one flesh that is literally there’s no difference between the two of them they’re in such
48:4748:47 - Perfect Harmony that they are one thing and this is also what we see in the Trinity which is why Jesus said the
48:5548:55 - prayer he said in John 17 that they may be one as we are one that they may be one with us so the idea is that we will
49:0249:02 - have this same Unity with with with the Trinity that the Trinity has in itself that’s what God is aiming for he’s
49:1149:11 - dwelling in us and Us in him that’s what he’s pushing for now because we were his enemies on what basis then would he
49:2349:23 - grant us that Unity so when his Spirit was actually operating on uh prophets and kings and you know Believers of the
49:3349:33 - old times it was more like I’m doing that in view it’s like a uh what would you call it like a credit a credit line
49:4249:42 - or something there’s I’m giving you this because of a promise that has been made so Jesus was yet to come and die but
49:5249:52 - because that was a certain thing the Lord granted those uh uh bounds those experiences of him to those who believed
50:0450:04 - but in fact that Unity that Binding Together that relationship that was going to be found by the Holy Spirit
50:1350:13 - coming into us to live in our bodies to share Fellowship in such an intimate fashion with us essentially
50:2250:22 - saying to us you are like you are mine and I am yours that situation was never going to
50:3050:30 - be a thing in that way unless Jesus had paid the price for our sins and the the way we could know that that that um
50:4050:40 - sacrifice had been accepted was that Jesus was going to be glorified that meant he had been restored to the place
50:4650:46 - that he gave up in order to pay that price that is God saying I accepted what you’ve done and it’s wonderful come
50:5550:55 - let’s go back to the fellowship we had you know I don’t want to get off topic because we don’t we don’t want to go too
51:0251:02 - far field here anyway but um there’s this interesting idea in terms of atonement Theory um that’s the word used
51:0951:09 - when we’re discussing about what exactly is it that God did to reconcile us to himself how were our sins paid for um
51:1751:17 - there’s this interesting verse um I don’t remember exactly I think it’s somewhere in Romans that talks about how
51:2351:23 - you know if if Christ maybe it’s not right I don’t remember if Christ had not been raised we would have all believed
51:2851:28 - for nothing right well if you say well if Christ already died for our sins on the cross wouldn’t we have been saved
51:3451:34 - even if he wasn’t raised from the dead I don’t know if you’ve ever thought of that um it’s one of those things where
51:3951:39 - if you if you look at it and you aren’t careful with how you phrase your question and how you understand what it
51:4651:46 - means the glorification of Christ his the ra his raising from the dead and his Ascension to the father and and sitting
51:5451:54 - at his right hand this is God’s acceptance of the payment of the Cross right and so um you know God is just
52:0352:03 - it’s not like he couldn’t have not accepted it right um in the same way that a just judge would you know render
52:0852:08 - Justice in a case if if a crime had been paid for or whatever um or someone who holds a loan right a just person who
52:1752:17 - holds a loan once it is repaid is not going to exact more from the person and so on um but the glorification of Christ
52:2552:25 - is that stamp of approval on the work of the Cross and um just to kind of maybe round out this question a bit more the
52:3252:32 - Holy Spirit indwells us after the point of spiritual regeneration once we have become part of the body of Christ we are
52:4052:40 - you know United with God through the indwelling of the holy spirit that happens on account of what Christ did
52:4652:46 - for us on the cross um so AI mentioned the whole credit thing with the Old Testament Believers um I don’t even know
52:5252:52 - how profitable it is for us to compare the you know the ministry of the Holy Spirit
52:5752:57 - upon Believers in the New Testament with the ministry of the Holy Spirit on Believers in the Old Testament I mean we
53:0153:01 - know that it’s mentioned is having some of these folks having the spirit of God do they have it in the same way that we
53:0853:08 - have it does it does it really matter you see what I’m saying like I mean like what exactly are the differences Etc is
53:1653:16 - that important for understanding I mean like it maybe it’s interesting to speculate about but I think the key not
53:2253:22 - speculate when you look at Ephesians chapter 4 it’s actually pretty straightforward that when he um ascended
53:2953:29 - he gave gifts to men right those gifts did not exist prior I mean yes there were prophets but there were no Apostles
53:3753:37 - there were no Pastor teachers there were Levites who were supposed to interpret the law and even among those Levites
53:4353:43 - they you you saw that it was a special case that you would see that the Holy Spirit came upon someone now consider
53:5053:50 - this fact consider this that Saul first king of well not the first King but still when the when the kingdom was
53:5753:57 - established as a thing after Samuel he was the first king um Saul was a Believer right up to the end of his life
54:0654:06 - but there was a point at which the Holy Spirit was taken from him that’s a very important difference
54:1354:13 - between Believers of that time and Believers of today if you don’t have the Holy Spirit now in this dispensation in
54:2154:21 - this era you’re not a Believer any M but he was a Believer who had to
54:2854:28 - function without the Holy Spirit and remember Paul David’s very stringing cry in in Psalm 53 when he asked the Lord
54:3754:37 - not to remove his Spirit from him we have never we Believers have never seen what it is like to love the Lord and not
54:4654:46 - have his spirit in us we don’t know what that is like it’s a horrible existence it’s a very painful miserable existence
54:5254:52 - being because this world yeah I just going to say you know I I don’t want us to get we we’ve already talked a good
54:5954:59 - bit here um hopefully we’ve answered the gist of the question I mean I’m sorry to cut you off a bit here sure sure sure I
55:0455:04 - have up on the screen here the verse this is exactly what Audi just said this is how we know New Testament that if
55:0955:09 - anyone doesn’t have the spirit of Christ they’re not Believers um Romans 8 uh chapter 8 verse 9 but more what I was
55:1755:17 - getting at was it that we can’t know certain things about I my point was we don’t need to go exercise our minds
55:2255:22 - about what exactly was different you know because one difference like you pointed out is that the spirit could be
55:2755:27 - removed like it was removed from Saul and it can’t today well that’s a difference right but I mean I I don’t
55:3355:33 - know how how how how like useful it is to go compare and contrast what their version you know like how having the
55:4155:41 - Spirit uh the blessing of the spirit or the anointing of the spirit um as David had for them is different than what all
55:4855:48 - believers have now it’s just the point is is that regardless for us the spirit was given because of Christ’s
55:5555:55 - glorification because of the acceptance of his payment that’s kind of the the answer to the the underlying question I
56:0256:02 - think so let’s pause for a sec make sure we we kind of got all the uh points hit on that one so that’s where we’re going
56:1156:11 - to close out here this conversation about um uh the spirit of God and and how does God have the spirit and is that
56:1856:18 - different from the Holy Spirit and also why wasn’t the Holy Spirit sent um until the Ascension um and now we’re going to
56:2556:25 - turn to discussing the Sevenfold spirit of God as it’s mentioned in Revelation so this was kind of where we
56:3356:33 - were going to pick up next um in the verse that we were reading in Revelation which we were focusing primarily upon uh
56:4156:41 - the aspect of three persons of the Trinity mentioned in this verse but one of the questions we had here when we
56:4756:47 - paused was um we have this mention of the seven spirits who are Before the Throne and this is here in Revelation
56:5456:54 - chap 1 1 veres 4-6 um of the seven spirits who are before his throne um and so the question was we kind of had a
57:0357:03 - feeling that we recalled other places where we had these sevens come up um they come up in Zechariah Chapter 3
57:1157:11 - Verse n talking about seven eyes on the stone and then in the next chapter as well Zechariah Chapter 4 um several
57:1957:19 - places if we search for the word seven you’ll see that it shows up here um and uh as well you know we just went search
57:2557:25 - so if you’ve never done this before you can actually search for things on ikas specifically using this search parameter
57:3157:31 - you know you limit it to the site specifically and yeah verily there was a email question and answer on this and so
57:3857:38 - um Audi I don’t know if you wna you want to give some conversation before um but ichus does talk about this point you
57:4457:44 - know it talks about uh this passage here Revelation chapter one where we were um it cross references it with Isaiah 11
57:5257:52 - verse 2 um you know here seven the seven old Spirit of the Lord in Isaiah chapter 2 um and then in Revelation chapter 5 as
58:0158:01 - well um yeah um I mean you could actually go to uh
58:0958:09 - ct2b that particular uh discussion he had there because that’s where he went into the discussion but um it suffice to
58:1758:17 - say that the seven spirits are not seven spirits they it’s it’s the Holy Spirit in the seven roles you might say he
58:2958:29 - plays or the seven works that he he does so he has seven Ministries it’s like how do I you could think of it this way that
58:3958:39 - the holy spirit is doing one work one perfect work and in seven different Ministries and Ministry Services as as
58:5158:51 - we know uh he he perfects this this work it brings it to Perfection so the the you would see that Revelation starts
59:0159:01 - with talking about the seven spirits Before the Throne of God and then proceeds in chapters uh the same chapter
59:0859:08 - one it talks about the seven lamb stands and the seven spirits of the seven churches then in chapters 2 and three it
59:1659:16 - talks about the seven churches there’s a reason that it’s talking about things like this it’s referring to the
59:2259:22 - Perfection of a plan that God has that the spirit is working out so this is what the seven spirits of God is really
59:3359:33 - about it’s not that there are seven Holy Spirits we should remember what we’re talking about we’re talking about God
59:4159:41 - and God is the infinite one you don’t need seven of anything of him that’s just the fact so we’re talking about
59:5059:50 - seven things that the spirit does to bring his perfect work to fruition not seven Holy Spirits it’s not a really
59:5959:59 - difficult concept to grasp unless we get often the way Weeds about it it says seven it says seven here and it’s the
01:00:0801:00:08 - only the only place in the Bible where it actually states that explicitly and in fact in some translations you will
01:00:1501:00:15 - see um the thing written as Sevenfold spirit of God we all have a spiritual appreciation a common sense appreciation
01:00:2101:00:21 - of the fact that we’re talking about the Holy Spirit and um as we see from uh Professor Robert’s discussion of this
01:00:2901:00:29 - and I think this uh Q&A he says what I have up here we had up the Q&A here which links to the part of part 2B of
01:00:3901:00:39 - the coming tribulation which we were at here which talks about the seven lamps of fire showing up in Revelation it’s
01:00:4401:00:44 - actually also in uh here let me go let me go back it’s also also in uh part five of the Bible basic series which is
01:00:5401:00:54 - uh the study the the Holy Spirit you’ll see there’s the section of the sevens here seven spirits lamps eyes seals same
01:01:0001:01:00 - thing if we go back to this this is in that section lots of discussion about this
01:01:0601:01:06 - this concept as well so I will probably go ahead and post these links when I post the notes for this week because
01:01:1301:01:13 - these are all good places to look um yeah yeah okay so it’s bottom line we’re not
01:01:2201:01:22 - talking about multiple spirits of God we’re just talking about the um Perfection of the thing that the holy
01:01:2901:01:29 - spirit is doing to realize the plan of God that’s it the reason the seven is in view is because of what John is about to
01:01:3901:01:39 - teach that’s the the point in in Revelation 2 and three we kind of see it because uh the seven churches are
01:01:4801:01:48 - actually seven divides in time of the progression of the church how the church is not really iterating but developing
01:01:5801:01:58 - you could say and in each of these eras so to speak we see the Holy Spirit doing something specific at a specific time in
01:02:0701:02:07 - preparing this Bride for the Lord and remember that the focus of all the work that God is doing before the return of
01:02:1801:02:18 - the Lord Jesus is to replace the angels that rebelled that’s the plan he has and what the holy spirit is doing toward
01:02:2701:02:27 - that is his ministry that’s the work he is doing and it’s captured in this Sevenfold description that we find in
01:02:3501:02:35 - the Bible that’s that’s all there is to it yep I think that’s a good way so that’s where we’ll wrap up this
01:02:4401:02:44 - one so last question here from this initial set of questions we had after going through a lot of the scripture uh
01:02:5201:02:52 - to bolster the point we were making uh was this question kind of about how uh when we say that we are baptized into
01:02:5901:02:59 - the person of the father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and Matthew chapter 28 verse 19 in the Great Commission well
01:03:0601:03:06 - what does that mean exactly how can we be put into the person of God if God is divine and has all these attributes as
01:03:1301:03:13 - we talked about in God’s Essence before um we are not deity we can never be deity not in the way that God is and so
01:03:2101:03:21 - what does it mean for us to become part of the body of Christ Christ um I think let’s start off by uh the wrong way of
01:03:2901:03:29 - looking at things kind of how we were doing with the Trinity here um so there are certain branches of of uh
01:03:3601:03:36 - self-professed Christians who talk about us becoming like God being transformed to be like him there’s this word in uh
01:03:4401:03:44 - particularly Orthodox theology called theosis um you may have heard that um some of this is more or less
01:03:5101:03:51 - objectionable because we are supposed to be transformed formed uh to follow after our our you know Jesus Christ as the
01:03:5801:03:58 - firstborn of the Resurrection we’re supposed to reflect his glory so in a certain manner of speaking yes we’re
01:04:0301:04:03 - going to become like God but not in you know ontological being not in nature um we will only ever be human uh even in
01:04:1201:04:12 - eternity um now uh the book of Hebrews is very clear that uh once humans are resurrected and exalted at least Jesus
01:04:2101:04:21 - as the human Paul goes out of his way well if you take Paul to be the writer of Hebrews which I do U Paul goes out of
01:04:2701:04:27 - his way in Hebrews to show how Jesus is superior to the angels um in the resurrection State um but Jesus Is God
01:04:3501:04:35 - we won’t be God um so I don’t want to ramble um to the the main thrust of this question uh when we are baptized into
01:04:4301:04:43 - the person of the father and the Son and the Holy Spirit we are baptized into the body of Christ we become indwell by the
01:04:5001:04:50 - Holy Spirit um this metaphor for us as as acting as one body gets to the unity of the church it does not mean somehow
01:04:5901:04:59 - that we become I don’t know this sounds super technical but we don’t become like
01:05:0501:05:05 - partakers of the Divine Essence in what some people mean by that um uh by a certain way of description that is what
01:05:1301:05:13 - we do as Christians by communion we are washed clean in the blood of Christ through his body and his blood but not
01:05:2001:05:20 - in the way that people talk about that um you know it’s not like we live upon I don’t know eating the
01:05:2701:05:27 - literal Flesh and Blood of God because people have very wrong ideas about communion and that um so I know I’ve
01:05:3301:05:33 - gone a lot of different directions a you want to pick up any of the the threads I’ve introduced here and go with it yeah
01:05:3801:05:38 - um I think you’ve really hid the nail on the head because when we think about well we’re we’re going to be made one
01:05:4601:05:46 - with God but we’re not going to become deity how does that make sense well think about marriage for
01:05:5101:05:51 - example um we we become one with our spouse and if the Bible says that it doesn’t really matter what anything else
01:05:5901:05:59 - in the world says when you get married you become one with your spouse but the woman does not cease to be a woman and
01:06:0801:06:08 - become a man and the man does not cease to be a man and become a woman we don’t lose our personality we don’t lose our
01:06:1401:06:14 - makeup we just find ourselves in this very and it it doesn’t matter how perfect that relationship is even if it
01:06:2101:06:21 - was Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before the the fall we still see that in that position Eve was Eve and Adam was
01:06:3201:06:32 - Adam even though they were one flesh so it’s the same thing in our relationship with God when we are brought into this
01:06:4101:06:41 - Unity this Oneness with him we don’t become God and we should keep that we should keep in mind that it’s impossible
01:06:4901:06:49 - for anything that is not God to become God it’s it’s impossible plain and simple to be become God because God is
01:06:5601:06:56 - that which is that’s it it it does not become and it did not used to be it is so we will
01:07:0701:07:07 - never become God and God is not never going to be other than God so it’s not like God will become us he’s always
01:07:1601:07:16 - going to be God but the thing is we will enter an a perfect intimate relationship with
01:07:2401:07:24 - him where things that he has he can share very freely and fully with us that’s this is
01:07:3301:07:33 - also where something that I’ve I’ve puzzled over for a little while starts to make sense I I thought for example
01:07:4101:07:41 - how how does one how does this thing that Paul said that in that day we shall know as we ourselves are are known today
01:07:5101:07:51 - we see dimly we see darkly as in the Mir era but then we will know as we ourselves are know when you think about
01:08:0001:08:00 - that this is actually hinting very strongly as at something that sounds very much like omniscience that is crazy
01:08:1001:08:10 - how could we possibly contain that much information but this is and now I don’t want to speculate on what that might
01:08:1801:08:18 - actually mean in terms of how we possess knowledge of that sort but it will be perfect knowledge is what it is it is
01:08:2401:08:24 - actually saying that we possess perfect knowledge but I don’t know if it’s perfect knowledge of all things or
01:08:2901:08:29 - whatever but we will not have the difficulties that we are having today in understanding what God is about and what
01:08:3601:08:36 - where we are headed with the Lord so here’s the question then how do we have that only as a gift from the Lord now
01:08:4501:08:45 - imagine this that um you were adopted into a home they’re very wealthy they have loads of books and they have loads
01:08:5401:08:54 - of cars and all sorts of things it’s all there right now that you’ve been adopted into that home you have rights to all of
01:09:0201:09:02 - that you can pick up anything you want to read you can get in any car and drive you can sit at any table have any meal
01:09:1001:09:10 - you want it’s all yours now you have equal rights to it but it doesn’t mean that you have ceased to be you and
01:09:1801:09:18 - you’ve become the people that adopted you or that the people that adopted you cease to be themselves and became you so
01:09:2501:09:25 - it’s the same way we can look at this that we have been brought into an intimate relationship with the Lord such
01:09:3201:09:32 - that he shares himself with us without losing himself or us becoming something other than what we are you know I think
01:09:4101:09:41 - I think maybe the best way to get to this and this is kind of what I was trying to put my finger on when I
01:09:4601:09:46 - started was that it’s it’s a metaphor it’s not literal um and and I mean I’m laughing a bit here because this is the
01:09:5401:09:54 - same problem that people have with the communion passage in John chapter 6 about eating the flesh and blood of
01:10:0001:10:00 - Christ and they say well you see the Bible says is so therefore it must be somehow that we are consuming the
01:10:0601:10:06 - essence of God or whatever you know which we we think is complete nonsense right we are memorialists it’s a
01:10:1101:10:11 - metaphor well so to is us being the body of Christ we are not literally ontologically speaking the body of
01:10:1801:10:18 - Christ whatever but like where people get wrong is by that’s a
01:10:2701:10:27 - metaphor it’s what it’s supposed to be we are the you know we are the bride of Christ we’re also the body of Christ
01:10:3301:10:33 - these things are metaphors right um marriage is supposed to teach us about sub uh uh submitting to Christ you know
01:10:4001:10:40 - that that is a direct analogy it’s one of the reasons why the Bible uses this metaphor it’s is very helpful in
01:10:4501:10:45 - structuring our understanding but fundamentally it is a metaphor we are not ontologically speaking the body of
01:10:5101:10:51 - Christ whatever that would mean um the fact that some people go there well I mean they’re missing the point that it’s
01:10:5901:10:59 - not it’s not a technical description of God’s existence his being that we’re talking about here it’s how we function
01:11:0701:11:07 - with that Unity what our relationship to God is um collectively as a group is as a wife properly submits herself to her
01:11:1501:11:15 - husband in marriage and the husband uh that is Jesus in this analogy uh you know loves his wife in a
01:11:2101:11:21 - self-sacrificing way it’s supposed to teach us something right but it has nothing to do with about like God’s
01:11:2701:11:27 - being or us somehow becoming one with God’s essence or whatever else people kind of like get up to be right I mean I
01:11:3701:11:37 - will add I will add this to that that um today we understand that we we want as children of God as Christians
01:11:4801:11:48 - those who believe in Jesus Christ to be instruments of God’s will that’s literally what we want
01:11:5401:11:54 - to be Servants of his will and if he wants things done this way or that that’s what we want to do now if we
01:12:0201:12:02 - appreciate what that means that is precisely what it means to be the body of Christ we are agents of his will now
01:12:1101:12:11 - in in the in eternity when we have Resurrection bodies and God has filled all things just as Colossians says the
01:12:2101:12:21 - idea here is that we are in such perfect harmony with God that what we want is aligned with what he wants so that the
01:12:3201:12:32 - actions we carry out the interactions we get involved with the way we treat the universe in which we live is an
01:12:4001:12:40 - expression of himself so we are not him but we become like
01:12:4801:12:48 - um not just you could think of conscious tools you could you could think think of AI or but AI is a very bad analogy for
01:12:5701:12:57 - this well not a bad analogy it’s a good analogy but still it has limits the idea here is that we are conscious creatures
01:13:0501:13:05 - who are very happy being in ourselves the means of carrying out God’s will in the creation
01:13:1601:13:16 - that he makes that’s what we are trying to do today in our spiritual growth we’re learning to align ourselves with
01:13:2201:13:22 - the Lord and walk diligently with him every day that’s why the Bible talks about our our
01:13:2901:13:29 - being changed in the way we think so that we become like the Lord in the way we think so that he does not have to
01:13:3601:13:36 - dictate to us as external things for himself but rather that because we are in such close um connection to him the
01:13:4601:13:46 - way he thinks and the way we think are the same so what we want to do is what he wants done and we we become we become
01:13:5501:13:55 - the conduits the means through which he exercises his will in the creation that he made so this again leads us back to
01:14:0401:14:04 - what Jesus said that he will be in us and we will be in him that’s the idea this this very tight connection of
01:14:1301:14:13 - Hearts is essentially what this is how Moses and I mean there was a relationship between Moses and Aaron but
01:14:2101:14:21 - uh just going to to Moses Moses was to do what God Said and he did until yeah did until he didn’t and so that’s the
01:14:2901:14:29 - that’s the body what you’re talking about what Moses was doing in obedience and what Jesus actually was doing in
01:14:3601:14:36 - obedience is the body we we need to be no okay yeah exactly now Jesus in his kosis I would say that is a good way to
01:14:4601:14:46 - look at it um in his divine nature he was always completely United with the father in essence but in his kosis
01:14:5301:14:53 - Jesus submitting himself perfectly to the father’s will is exactly the unity that we’re getting at here um I also say
01:15:0101:15:01 - one other point if we are getting hot and bothered about this idea of uh you know us being united with the Divine
01:15:0801:15:08 - Essence of God well what about the taking it the other way you know this is perhaps an easier more falsifiable thing
01:15:1501:15:15 - if we say that we are one body meaning that we are all perfectly United with each other well like just look around a
01:15:2301:15:23 - little bit and you’ll see that what some people seem to mean by that can’t be true right um yeah because if if we take
01:15:3201:15:32 - this thing as we collectively as a church are the body of Christ whatever whenever people get into making more out
01:15:3901:15:39 - of that than the metaphor it is well in as much as we are one with Christ in that we are also one with each other and
01:15:4601:15:46 - if you just look around I mean sure we as Christians are supposed to be more united than many other people in the
01:15:5201:15:52 - world that is a trademark characteristic of the church when it is functioning properly but it is not whatever those
01:15:5801:15:58 - people mean right um so that’s very true very true that’s a very good test yeah all right well I think that’s
01:16:0801:16:08 - a good place to leave this um when we are baptized spiritually into the body of Christ you know not the ritual of
01:16:1501:16:15 - water baptism but the the meaning of spiritual baptism such that in Romans 8:9 it says that anyone who does not
01:16:2101:16:21 - have the spirit is not of God um what we are getting at is that we are made spiritually alive we have that
01:16:2801:16:28 - connection that the close relationship with God such that we submit to him and we respect his will and he loves us in
01:16:3601:16:36 - that self-sacrificing love uh that Jesus laid down his life for us but we have that tightness of connection and also
01:16:4301:16:43 - that Unity with one another in the church all submitting ourselves to Christ that is what we’re getting at for
01:16:5001:16:50 - us to be part of the body of Christ um not that we are somehow you know like becoming God or um
01:16:5801:16:58 - you know like linked to God in our being or whatever um you know past what it means for all of us to be created and
01:17:0501:17:05 - dependent upon God for existence but um it it’s just that idea of the unity we have with one another and with God
01:17:1201:17:12 - through our submission um right all right well I think that’s probably where we’ll leave this one um
01:17:2101:17:21 - good questions good discussion here on um clarifying some of the concepts that have come out in these passages as we
01:17:2801:17:28 - discuss the Trinity so having spent some time talking through some of the questions we
01:17:3701:17:37 - had after going through initial passages talking about how all the members of the Trinity are deity now we’re going to
01:17:4301:17:43 - turn and look at some specific passages for each member of the godhead so first we’re going to start with the father um
01:17:5101:17:51 - so uh obviously the point of uh this particular lesson that we’re going through is that all three members of the
01:17:5701:17:57 - Trinity are deity all of them are Divine they are all God and so starting with the father uh we’re going to look at
01:18:0401:18:04 - some passages uh that kind of establish the Divinity of the father then the Divinity of the Son and the Divinity of
01:18:1001:18:10 - the Holy Spirit I’m just to bolster that point that all three members of the Trinity are God so we’ll start here in
01:18:1901:18:19 - Matthew chapter 9 or sorry Matthew chapter 6 verse 99 um which says uh this is uh Jesus in The Lord’s Prayer
01:18:2601:18:26 - teaching us how to pray says Our Father who is in heaven Hallowed be your name um should be pretty familiar to most
01:18:3201:18:32 - Christians I’d think but the point here is that God the father is in heaven he is God right um because beings in heaven
01:18:4101:18:41 - I mean I suppose we’d say angels are in heaven too but very clearly this is an indirect support for the father being
01:18:4801:18:48 - Divine um the father being God uh so a do you have much to say there I mean I think that one is pretty straightforward
01:18:5501:18:55 - honestly um yeah like you said pretty straightforward um I think the key thing is our father yeah he is in heaven um so
01:19:0401:19:04 - are the Angels but our father and then the next thing is May your name be holy yeah or May the Holiness of your name be
01:19:1301:19:13 - preserved or something of that sort and that is particularly speaking to the uniqueness of his person right now we’ve
01:19:2201:19:22 - talked about this the last couple times but when we talk about God’s name the Holy Name Of God you know as in Exodus
01:19:2801:19:28 - chapter 3 that completely gets to God as deity AI has I think done a good job explaining this uh several times we’ve
01:19:3701:19:37 - talked about it is that God is existence right is the very thing that makes him God is that quality of isness and that’s
01:19:4601:19:46 - the name we’re saying is Holy right uh God’s God’s name God’s existence as the being that simply is um so in terms of
01:19:5501:19:55 - the characteristic or quality of deity we might say um that is in fact entirely what is in view
01:20:0201:20:02 - here yeah we we we should keep in mind too that hot speaks to the fact
01:20:1001:20:10 - that God’s name is unique that is Holiness is speaking to separateness being aart being not like other
01:20:1901:20:19 - things so this is acknowledgement of the deity of the father yep all right next verse
01:20:2701:20:27 - here that Dr lugan bille uses is in 1 Corinthians chapter 8 verse 6 says yet for us there is but one God comma the
01:20:3601:20:36 - father comma from whom all things and for from whom are all things and we exist for him and one Lord Jesus Christ
01:20:4501:20:45 - by whom are all things and we exist through him um so this is what is in grammar known as apposition um this this
01:20:5301:20:53 - this phrase with commas kind of uh giving another way of re restating the thing that comes directly before it um
01:21:0101:21:01 - so there is but one God the Father you know from whom all things are made like I you literally cannot make this verse
01:21:0901:21:09 - say anything other than the father is god um it’s what the verse directly says um this is I I should I should interject
01:21:1901:21:19 - here that of all of the members of the Trinity I think the father is the easiest to support as being God right no
01:21:2501:21:25 - one ever thinks the father isn’t god um most heresies in fact I can think of off the top of my head in the past we went
01:21:3201:21:32 - through several adoptionism for example or aryanism most of them deal with members
01:21:3701:21:37 - of the Trinity that aren’t the father I I can’t think of too many heresies off the top of my head where somehow people
01:21:4301:21:43 - think the father isn’t god um but nonetheless we’re just going through dotting our eyes crossing our tees this
01:21:5001:21:50 - is another Bible verse and I’m sure there’s others besides the ones that we’re going through that clearly
01:21:5601:21:56 - supports the idea of God the father being deity of being Divine anything to say there Audie or shall we just go
01:22:0401:22:04 - ahead and go on to the next one yeah nothing much to say either I think what you said is exactly right I don’t think
01:22:1101:22:11 - there’s there’s ever a question whether the father is God I mean you could say the father is Jesus you could say the
01:22:1801:22:18 - father is the Holy Spirit you could say the father is the god from whom whom the Holy Spirit and Jesus proceed a lot of
01:22:2601:22:26 - things have been said but I don’t know of anyone who has a question about whether the Bible teaches the father is
01:22:3201:22:32 - God it’s pretty straightforward so so like you said dotting eyes Crossing teas yeah we just say here are the places
01:22:4001:22:40 - that the Bible says the father is god well so I I remember we we made this point um introducing this uh Dr lugan
01:22:4901:22:49 - Bill stated and I agreed with him that the trinity is obvious from the Bible right um we spent some time and breath
01:22:5601:22:56 - discussing how it didn’t just come about in the thir Century you know 325 Ad Council of NAA this wasn’t like the
01:23:0301:23:03 - first time that people had like understood the Trinity from scripture um it’s right there it’s in the text it’s
01:23:0901:23:09 - the common sense understanding of of how God is discussed in the New Testament and so what we’re doing here is showing
01:23:1701:23:17 - you well here’s where you get it right these are some of those passages by which the early believers would have
01:23:2201:23:22 - understood that God is Triune in nature right from the text of the Bible uh we don’t need tradition or church councils
01:23:2901:23:29 - to get this point because the Bible itself teaches it um that just is an important thing for us to keep
01:23:3501:23:35 - emphasizing as we go here is that we believe the Trinity not because a council of old men sat and voted about
01:23:4201:23:42 - it but because the Bible teaches it um now a lot of people probably wouldn’t say they believe it because of the
01:23:4901:23:49 - church councils but I don’t know um we just need to be very careful in how we uh uh basically justify our belief in
01:23:5801:23:58 - things because we know that the only true basis for our belief as Christians is scripture itself so-called solos
01:24:0501:24:05 - scriptura right that’s a pretty fundamental Canon for us as Evangelical Protestants you know those are the
01:24:1001:24:10 - labels that people would apply to us um and that’s why we’re kind of emphasizing this point so all that said uh next one
01:24:1901:24:19 - here in Ephesians chapter 3 um so eans come on I’ll click on the more link Ephesians
01:24:2701:24:27 - chapter 3: 14- 15 um so says for this reason I bow my knees before the father from whom every family in heaven and on
01:24:3601:24:36 - Earth deres its name um so you know another pretty clear straightforward um how could every
01:24:4501:24:45 - family in heaven on Earth derive their name if the father wasn’t God it just would not make sense um this one might
01:24:5101:24:51 - be helpful to get a little bit more context to see what is in view here in Ephesians chapter 3 um so it’s Paul
01:25:0001:25:00 - beginning a prayer here um praying for the Ephesians the church in Ephesus um so uh this isn’t quite I don’t think
01:25:1101:25:11 - title is quite the right word it is a um uh Paul Paul using this phrase here um as a a description a qualifier of who
01:25:2301:25:23 - we’re talking about who God is and particularly how that affects us as humans here um so this isn’t the only
01:25:3001:25:30 - place in scripture where this comes up um reasonably common actually you know for Paul or one of the other Apostles
01:25:3601:25:36 - you know Peter John writing to be you know God uh who has done this for us or who has affected these things um that
01:25:4501:25:45 - God that’s the one we’re talking about actually I think pretty commonly comes up as God uh the god of your father’s
01:25:5101:25:51 - Abraham and Isaac and Jacob right you know that kind of set aside this is the god this is the being we’re talking
01:25:5801:25:58 - about that sort of thing but here just inferential evidence again that the father whom we are talking
01:26:0601:26:06 - about is most certainly god um I mean if if all the family in Heaven and Earth derives its name from him you
01:26:1501:26:15 - know how we have family names that’s to speak to his authority over Heaven and Earth so
01:26:2301:26:23 - that is pretty I mean it might not seem immediately apparent to people who are looking
01:26:3001:26:30 - for things to quarrel about but it’s a pretty straightforward statement if if all the family in Heaven and Earth is
01:26:3801:26:38 - deriving its name from the father then the father is the head of all this family yeah and that position is God’s
01:26:4801:26:48 - position now I will say that the English words father and family don’t seem that related right um but uh you know Lis had
01:26:5601:26:56 - mentioned this earlier when we were talking before the recording today well that is an English problem so to speak
01:27:0301:27:03 - um in Latin and Greek actually at least those are languages I’m familiar with family is intrinsically tied to the word
01:27:0901:27:09 - for father so um you know Latin P Patria right um this is what we speak these things are dead related to
01:27:1901:27:19 - each other in the text it’s right there um so if hit stronger in Latin and Greek is what I’m saying um this connection
01:27:2601:27:26 - between God the father and us as his family the family is the members belonging to the father so to speak
01:27:3301:27:33 - right that’s how it works biblically in the biblical understanding of family and when we say that God is our father the F
01:27:4101:27:41 - the family doesn’t exist apart from the father I mean I don’t want to get into like philosophy or whatever but you know
01:27:4601:27:46 - like that is the connection we have to God the Father um it’s pretty strong is what I’m saying
01:27:5201:27:52 - um can you address can you address the name part of this deres its name aie you want to you want to take that or oh yeah
01:28:0201:28:02 - okay okay um like I said it’s like having a family name um most families are identified somehow like I come from
01:28:1101:28:11 - the AR wo family in fact I come from the Isaac Car World of family so my family deres its name from my
01:28:2101:28:21 - father the larger Clan deres its name from um our patriarch uh like my grandfather and
01:28:3101:28:31 - then we have the Uki Clan which is my great-grandfather and so on and so forth so when we talk about the the derivation
01:28:4101:28:41 - of a name we’re saying who is it by whose identity a family is known that is the
01:28:4901:28:49 - head of the home the head of the clan and um that is that is God in this in this
01:28:5801:28:58 - sense we are Christians that’s what the world calls us or called us back in the days of uh Paul in
01:29:0701:29:07 - Antioch but you could call us Believers you could call us followers of Christ you could call us followers of the way
01:29:1501:29:15 - you call us whatever you will but in the end you’re saying we belong to God’s family and that is true of the angels as
01:29:2401:29:24 - well and of those who have gone before us so that identity that we possess as members of that family derives from the
01:29:3501:29:35 - father and that is actually an argument or a statement of you know presupposed fact it’s like well that’s obvious since
01:29:4501:29:45 - he is God I mean I think this gets back to what philosophers would call the uncaused cause or the prime mover you
01:29:5401:29:54 - want to use that word from philosophy you know people get their names from somewhere right and if you think of the
01:30:0201:30:02 - human uh the the tree of humanity you know starting with Adam and Eve throughout history um families derive
01:30:1001:30:10 - from you know an initial starting point again after the flood um where Noah and his family survived and repopulated the
01:30:1701:30:17 - Earth well even all of those people didn’t come from nowhere they came from God
01:30:2201:30:22 - all of existence um and I I mean I don’t want to stretch it right this passage is clearly talking about the idea of family
01:30:3101:30:31 - what does that mean for us to be the family of God right we are not literally like I I don’t you know like how uh for
01:30:3901:30:39 - example like baby deer are still deer right well even though we are God’s children we are not like baby Gods so to
01:30:4601:30:46 - speak um we we are in some ways you know we have the image of God we have choice we are Godlike in our Capac to choose
01:30:5301:30:53 - but we are not like God in nature um we spent a long time um in kind of the first core part of this series talking
01:31:0001:31:00 - about how God is completely separate from everything in creation um but where I’m going with this is that God is the
01:31:0701:31:07 - one being who doesn’t himself have a father so to speak right the one being from whom all of the other families
01:31:1501:31:15 - derve um it’s the uncaused cause now one thing I wanted to mention here I I I have a a family twist on this as well um
01:31:2201:31:22 - so you’ve probably heard of last names like Johnson or Jacobson right in my own family I have a lot of relatives from
01:31:2901:31:29 - Norway there is a group of folks on my dad’s side who still live in rural Illinois and they are the spencon and so
01:31:3701:31:37 - there was someone in my family history named Sven and then his family were Sven and his sons the sons of Sven Svenson um
01:31:4601:31:46 - and so I don’t know I I I find it funny because I know it’s like my great great grandfather or something his named Sven
01:31:5201:31:52 - spencon um anyway um that is an example here of the family name being derived from uh uh sort of the the leader of the
01:32:0201:32:02 - family um I was that is that helpful Lisa um did we kind of get to the core of what
01:32:0801:32:08 - you’re asking like why your names coming up here um yeah no I guess I’m still a little fuzzy because it’s every family
01:32:1401:32:14 - it’s not just the Believers it’s every right in heaven and in Earth and now the the Heavenly they don’t marry so they
01:32:2101:32:21 - don’t have like cousins and brothers and sisters I would be right I mean we we there’s a lot we
01:32:3101:32:31 - don’t know about for example how angels are organized um so we know that there are clans of angels um you know the 24
01:32:3701:32:37 - Elders Before the Throne um Aus talks about in its Systematic Theology part 2A of angels talks about the Angelic
01:32:4401:32:44 - hierarchies and stuff um this verse like not to I I I don’t think we need to go all that far down in the week reads
01:32:5201:32:52 - there um the verse is getting at that all groups of organizations right everything that we would call a family
01:32:5901:32:59 - and of course we have a human idea of what that means but all organizations derive back to God um he
01:33:0701:33:07 - is the one in whom everything exists everything has been created um I get that with the uh Authority structures
01:33:1601:33:16 - that he set up you know I think it’s Romans that tells us to obey authorities so I can see that that is also implied
01:33:2201:33:22 - here yeah I think I think that um this passage is actually speaking Yeah I I don’t like how the NIV puts it because
01:33:3401:33:34 - um well could you could you take a look at the Greek and tell me what it says exactly please sure let me let me first
01:33:4101:33:41 - I’ll pull up a different translation so this is nasb here says from whom every family in heaven and on Earth derives
01:33:4901:33:49 - its name I I kind of what I’m curious about is what this word is um so we are looking at Ephesians 3 verse
01:33:5701:33:57 - 15 Ephesians 35 this is uh site that easily lets you pull up intral linear there are multiple sites
01:34:0601:34:06 - um Blue Letter Bible is one free online site that quickly lets you pull up an Interlinear or reverse Interlinear here
01:34:1401:34:14 - so we are looking at this verse here so starting here this is in heaven or actually it’s in the heavens plural
01:34:2301:34:23 - stative plural and upon the Earth Earth singular um interestingly article here this
01:34:3201:34:32 - word I’m more interested in the every family part okay
01:34:3901:34:39 - so this right here that’s the every family um Passa is uh adjective here for all and Patria this is a singular noun
01:34:5101:34:51 - meaning family so from whom this is this is the relative this is the relative Clause from whom every family in the
01:35:0101:35:01 - heavens and upon the Earth and then here’s the verb um if if I wanted to say all the
01:35:1101:35:11 - family right if I wanted to say all the family in Greek how would I say it so okay this this word here pass pass upon
01:35:2201:35:22 - this is the adjective in Greek it can mean all or it can mean every depending on context here let me pull the
01:35:2901:35:29 - adjective um so individually um each every any all um so okay that’s precisely why I wanted
01:35:3601:35:36 - to find out because I don’t like those translations now I think it is defensible uh you know not to get too
01:35:4201:35:42 - far off in the interpretive weeds here it is defensible to translate this because it is family singular right it
01:35:4801:35:48 - depends if you distribute this adjective or not um you do you make it each or every or do you make it all or the whole
01:35:5501:35:55 - because if you were to translate this verse here as from whom the whole family in heaven and on Earth
01:36:0201:36:02 - drives I I actually I see where you’re going with this and I think that is probably the better translation there is
01:36:0801:36:08 - one single family of God right yeah and it’s not it’s not every every family on Earth there is just one family is it’s
01:36:1701:36:17 - the family of see nasby actually footnotes it here um the whole um so if you take it in a Distributive
01:36:2301:36:23 - sense it’s every if you take it in a uh you know emphasis of the unity sense it’s the whole um and this is why side
01:36:3101:36:31 - tangent not to get you off the weed this is why translation is tricky business right both of those things are valid
01:36:3901:36:39 - meanings for that word in Greek which one is meant well that is up for you as the
01:36:4501:36:45 - translator now this is why um there is a pretty famous quote from a guy named I think it’s tacitus in Latin basically
01:36:5301:36:53 - the translates to English is all translators are traitors um in English we don’t have a word that can mean both
01:37:0201:37:02 - every or the whole like the same word means both we don’t have a word that has that connotation both of them so we have
01:37:0801:37:08 - to pick one in English you don’t have to pick one in Greek because the same word means both things
01:37:1601:37:16 - um go ahead you were gonna say something oh yeah uh I think you’re make very solid Arguments for the idea that
01:37:2501:37:25 - um there are multiple uh meanings being held together in that one word so it doesn’t have to
01:37:3201:37:32 - be an either or the reason I actually come down pretty strongly on the um the whole or the all the uh family um
01:37:4301:37:43 - interpretation is that um this is where we get yet another
01:37:5201:37:52 - uh insight into what God is trying is doing what God is accomplishing in creation there’s
01:38:0001:38:00 - a family that he wants it’s his family and as we saw right from Genesis most people wanted their own identity
01:38:0901:38:09 - separate from him and that of course is what led him to or what led to the creation of Israel as a nation and we
01:38:1901:38:19 - know that Israel is the church and the church is Israel and ultimately we are going to be sorted into the family that
01:38:2601:38:26 - is Israel you know and so on and so forth so when Paul says this he is speaking to the God of all believers in
01:38:3601:38:36 - Jesus Christ essentially pointing out that it’s both the angels and believing humans who belong to this family who
01:38:4701:38:47 - derive their name that is their identity from this father so he’s speaking it’s it’s kind of again it’s not like he’s
01:38:5801:38:58 - arguing for this is uh this is how the father is God it’s more like he’s he’s making a forgone conclusion man he’s
01:39:0501:39:05 - obviously God because after all the the the whole family of Believers which is the point of all of creature history
01:39:1501:39:15 - right derives from him so I I agree you know I I don’t think anything we were saying before was
01:39:2201:39:22 - wrong but I would translate this if I pick one in Translation and footnote the other one see that nasb here translated
01:39:3001:39:30 - is every and footnoted the whole I would translate the whole and footnote every um that’s how I would do it because it
01:39:3601:39:36 - makes a lot clearer that point that Audi just made that we’re talking about the the definite article family of God which
01:39:4501:39:45 - is composed of both humans and Angels uh the elect you’ll hear scripture use that word as well people who chose for god um
01:39:5301:39:53 - in who we have our identity um we derive our name we derive our identity from being part of that family the Eternal
01:40:0301:40:03 - family self- selecting for god um so I really would rather we not go ahead I like it thank you you got it okay yeah
01:40:1401:40:14 - uh let’s go back to the passages we’re talking about um so that we say at least mostly on topic here um so um we here
01:40:2501:40:25 - have now covered several passages supporting um the oops wrong side of slides here supporting the Divinity of
01:40:3201:40:32 - God the father and like Audi said um you know we did a tangent a little bit there it was a good question I’m not
01:40:3801:40:38 - discouraging questions um but the reason why we were talking about this verse um uh aie said something to the fact that
01:40:4501:40:45 - Paul wasn’t using this particular thing as an argument to prove God’s deity like that’s not the point of this passage
01:40:5201:40:52 - this is completely a tangential aside I mentioned it’s kind of similar how uh people when referencing God will
01:40:5801:40:58 - reference you know God the the father of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob it’s like that it’s just in a side of this is the
01:41:0601:41:06 - God we serve and this God we serve is from whom the whole family of God deres its name um it’s just that’s who we’re
01:41:1401:41:14 - talking about here so Paul very much takes it for granted that the father is Divine and eternal and you know the the
01:41:2401:41:24 - person from whom we all self-organize into the family of God like it’s just it’s he’s not proving it he’s not
01:41:3101:41:31 - arguing for it it’s just taking as brute fact um that was ai’s point and I think that is the right way to look at this
01:41:3701:41:37 - passage all right any closing thoughts here on this idea of God the father being god um not
01:41:4601:41:46 - really I think I think you satisfied the point in the the discussion quite well and to be very clear like we said this
01:41:5401:41:54 - is the easy one so to speak um people throughout history do not get tripped up by thinking that somehow God the father
01:42:0101:42:01 - is not God um or that he’s not deity he’s not Divine um it’s the other members of the Trinity which have had
01:42:0801:42:08 - more heresy traditionally in trinitarian theology so we will now turn to talk about the sun next and then we’ll get to
01:42:1501:42:15 - the Holy Spirit after that next we’re going to be talking about the Divinity of the Sun so the
01:42:2401:42:24 - second member of the Trinity here and just like the first one going to go ahead and be uh reading uh some verses
01:42:3101:42:31 - here to support this um one uh passage that really comes to mind you see this is the uh the verse used uh you know
01:42:3801:42:38 - kind of on the slide itself or in the in the study itself is in John chapter 1 uh the word becoming flesh and dwelling
01:42:4501:42:45 - Among Us the Incarnation of the word the Divine logos who we know is the son um because through him all things were made
01:42:5401:42:54 - going back here looking at this um uh this passage from 1 Corinthians chapter 8 that we just talked about you know
01:43:0101:43:01 - where this passage does say very clearly that the father is God you know just says it straight out but also talks
01:43:0701:43:07 - about how um in you know by whom are all things all things were made through him you’ll see that used other places in
01:43:1501:43:15 - scripture well that’s what John chapter 1 says the Gospel of John the very beginning part of the go goel of John
01:43:2101:43:21 - says that the world was made through him second member of the Trinity the agent Jesus Christ um he is the Divine log us
01:43:2901:43:29 - he is the word this same one was present with the father in the beginning or was present with God in the beginning
01:43:3601:43:36 - talking about God the Father Here in context of this passage now of course there are people who they don’t
01:43:4301:43:43 - translate this passage correctly right we got into a little bit about translation in our previous discussion
01:43:4901:43:49 - just now about how um you know different words in Greek maybe we don’t have an exact English
01:43:5501:43:55 - equivalent for the word and so you have to pick translating it one way or the other way well commonly in this
01:44:0001:44:00 - particular passage in John chapter 1 uh there’s this thing called a definite article which is where we put the God so
01:44:0601:44:06 - people will say Jesus is not God as in the god definite article he is a God uh group of people who does this is the
01:44:1301:44:13 - Jehovah’s Witnesses or jws well so happens that I’m not going to get into the the specifics of GR
01:44:2101:44:21 - but obviously we’re talking about God the Father here um in context um they are a group of people who don’t think
01:44:2901:44:29 - that but they like their interpretation of this passage is heavily colored by presupposing that somehow Jesus isn’t
01:44:3501:44:35 - God this is not the only place in the Bible too um so log rambley preface aside this passage here in John chapter
01:44:4101:44:41 - 1 this is the second person of the Trinity this is who we are talking about uh through him was the world made right
01:44:4901:44:49 - I mean he was God in his own right you know obviously this translation we have up on the screen this comes from ichus
01:44:5501:44:55 - what you see in Brackets is not present in the original Greek these are words or phrases that Dr lugan bill has added
01:45:0201:45:02 - that he views as implied and this is clarifying the meaning of this passage now if you read these verses with the
01:45:0801:45:08 - added bits the things in Brackets it becomes very very clear what the text is saying um if you read the Greek without
01:45:1401:45:14 - this or the English which comes from the Greek without this it’s not maybe quite as clear but
01:45:2001:45:20 - this is what the text means when we interpret it properly so some of those other passages this is why I say it
01:45:2601:45:26 - doesn’t rest upon this one alone that talk about Jesus being god um we’ll start with uh John 5 Verse 18 here um so
01:45:3901:45:39 - this is a pretty clear assertion in the gospels in John chapter 5 the Jews were seeking to kill him because he was not
01:45:4701:45:47 - only breaking the Sabbath but was also calling God his own father making himself equal with
01:45:5301:45:53 - God now this is a report but people were seeking to kill him because Jesus was claiming God as his own father making
01:46:0301:46:03 - himself equal to God now if you read the words in the gospels you see this too but you know uh it’s what Jesus claimed
01:46:1201:46:12 - um with his own mouth and uh just as an aside from a argument for probability Jesus wouldn’t be making this argument
01:46:2001:46:20 - wouldn’t be putting himself equal to the father I don’t know to like gain followers or something um you know so if
01:46:2601:46:26 - you think about where’s the motive in it if Jesus were lying about this he got crucified essentially
01:46:3401:46:34 - because of this because he claimed to be the Son of God remember a you uh pilate put up on the gravestone you know here
01:46:4001:46:40 - lies the king of the Jews and the Pharisees got really angry and they said no he’s not he says he’s the king of the
01:46:4601:46:46 - Jews right um well this gets to that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God he claimed that you know he and the father
01:46:5401:46:54 - were one that’s another verse that we’ll get to and it made no sense for him to claim that unless he actually was
01:47:0101:47:01 - because if he was trying to claim that to get money or power or fame what it got him instead was it got him crucified
01:47:0801:47:08 - so that is not a good argument um anything to say here on this point aie um this passage in John 5 and just
01:47:1601:47:16 - generally speaking Jesus claiming to be the Son of God and equal to the father just in his words and the gospels
01:47:2301:47:23 - generally yeah this is this is actually a passage that uh most people I have run into who have debated uh me on the
01:47:3301:47:33 - matter seem to have issues believing I mean how is claiming to be the Son of God making
01:47:4201:47:42 - himself equal to God is is a person equal to his father simply because he is his father’s son but
01:47:5101:47:51 - but the point here is that the two are of a kind and then you think again about how how prophecy
01:48:0201:48:02 - Works they knew that what he was saying was that he had come from God so that meant that he was
01:48:1501:48:15 - essentially claiming to be the Savior who was I I don’t think I remember the passage well it’s in Isaiah
01:48:2401:48:24 - where he said I am God your savior your only savior something of that sort I’ll try to remember it but my brain is
01:48:3101:48:31 - glitching a bit so the idea here is if he was from God he was the Christ and the Christ was weird he was not a normal
01:48:4201:48:42 - person by their estimation that was why um the disciples I believe it was Peter who said it uh said uh well we know that
01:48:5201:48:52 - when the Christ comes oh maybe it wasn’t the disciples when the Christ comes he will remain forever that is he will
01:48:5801:48:58 - continue forever because he’s not supposed to die he’s he’s not like the rest of us who who are subject to death
01:49:0601:49:06 - they didn’t see death happening to the to the Christ the Messiah because he had to be God or something very like God and
01:49:1601:49:16 - now Jesus was claiming to be from God that’s the idea of being the Son of God he Pro he came from God just like a a
01:49:2501:49:25 - man would come from his father right well and it helps to appreciate uh the term that Dr Lugo commonly uses for this
01:49:3301:49:33 - is prophetic foreshortening the idea is the perspective like artists might have this if you have a mountain range you
01:49:4101:49:41 - only see the first mountain in the range you can’t see the ones behind it right this getting to the suffering servants
01:49:4801:49:48 - versus the Conquering King thing all of the people at the time when Jesus came were waiting for the king to come
01:49:5401:49:54 - in and kick out the Romans but instead they got the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 and so you may hear this kind of
01:50:0201:50:02 - poetically phrase stumbling over the cross when reaching for the crown right um for the Jews they didn’t want their
01:50:1001:50:10 - Messiah to get crucified they wanted their Messiah to go beat the Romans right um sorry I don’t want to get off
01:50:1601:50:16 - on a tangent but it’s very interesting point of Prophecy here um and it does characterize what Jesus was claiming um
01:50:2401:50:24 - like Audi was saying he was claiming to be the Messiah the Christ and exactly what the Jews of the first century
01:50:3001:50:30 - understood that claim to mean we are you have to understand we are culturally removed from this as well right um we
01:50:3801:50:38 - aren’t under the oppression of Rome for one thing but we are also not culturally Jewish we didn’t grow up hearing you
01:50:4601:50:46 - know stories read about the Messiah as you know the the person come to rescue our people
01:50:5301:50:53 - specifically um this is one of the things that will make the regathering of Israel so powerful during the end times
01:51:0001:51:00 - is that the the witnesses the 144,000 the Revelation mentioned are for God’s family for Israel eological Israel we
01:51:0801:51:08 - are God’s family now as Believers you know Israel and the church are one like Audi said Romans chapter 11 for example
01:51:1401:51:14 - um but it is strong stuff what Jesus was claiming when he said he was the Messiah um
01:51:2001:51:20 - and you know so that point that aie made here about how is claiming that God is his father making himself equal to God
01:51:2701:51:27 - it is as AI said it’s because he’s saying this is where I am from um God sent me um that is the claim here uh you
01:51:3701:51:37 - know and actually it’s interestingly um you may hear this phrase in the New Testament kind of like um you know is is
01:51:4301:51:43 - he of God or is he of his father the devil you know the uh Pharisees would say he was doing his Signs by the power
01:51:5201:51:52 - of Satan right um you know let me actually I I don’t I I’m trying to think of the verse right off the top about his
01:51:5901:51:59 - father there’s a very specific verse I’m thinking of um so this is Jesus talking about how Satan is a liar and the father
01:52:0701:52:07 - of Lies devil um let’s John 8:44 I I’m thinking of it people
01:52:1601:52:16 - accusing Jesus of having his power come from sat um do you know what I’m talking about
01:52:2201:52:22 - aie um or am I just yeah I do um yeah um he Stephen is it is it the one where um Jesus replies to them that Satan can’t
01:52:3501:52:35 - drive out Satan is that right right right right right well that’s not quite I want that
01:52:4501:52:45 - context here let’s try Matthew 12 so it’s Matthew 122 27 or Luke 11:15 also Mark 3 yeah 2 to 27 I believe
01:53:0001:53:00 - yeah so yeah okay maybe maybe it doesn’t have the word father there I thought it did um by Prince demons
01:53:1101:53:11 - but you know like the idea being that if Jesus were sent from Satan he would be employing Satan’s power he’d be an agent
01:53:1701:53:17 - of Satan more or less and this is the opposite of who Jesus actually is right but it was kind of it was kind of
01:53:2601:53:26 - driving home the point that to the interlocutors being sent by the person being an emissary um you know this is
01:53:3401:53:34 - another thing that boy we just have a hard time with the language here in English in our culture um you know in
01:53:4001:53:40 - the Gospel of John how how you have all this stuff about Witnesses and Jesus goes on and on about how he was sent and
01:53:4801:53:48 - the one who sent him do you know what I’m talking about and like it seems kind of strange to us reading this in English
01:53:5401:53:54 - like why is he why is he saying this why is he emphasizing this point and the reason why he is is because of what that
01:54:0101:54:01 - claim means um so in English we’d be like you know if I I don’t know like let’s say I have a you know like a a
01:54:1001:54:10 - young boy who’s running an errand for me you know I gave him money I say hey go buy me bread and milk at the grocery
01:54:1401:54:14 - store or something right he’s been sent by me that is not the sense that Jesus means when he’s sent by the father
01:54:2201:54:22 - right he’s not he’s not like an errand boy he is an emissary the very boy you know like best I I can’t think of
01:54:2901:54:29 - putting it better than Hebrews chapter one right um God’s you know like in these last days he’s spoken to us
01:54:3701:54:37 - through his son right this is the son is the radiance of God’s glory the exact representation of his being sustaining
01:54:4401:54:44 - all things through his powerful word it’s the Emissary of God’s power right it is not Jesus as Aaron boy it is Jesus
01:54:5301:54:53 - as the standing for the deity of the father um I know AI has made the point that within the Trinity which we’ll get
01:55:0001:55:00 - to a little bit further on in the study the father is seen as the representation of deity within the godhead Jesus is
01:55:0901:55:09 - that deity represented to us upon Earth as the messenger um but it is the messenger carrying the scepter of the
01:55:1601:55:16 - king so to speak not like an under um so I don’t want to ramble but this is important stuff in on on on Luke 11
01:55:2601:55:26 - verse2 it said but if I cast out demons with the Finger of God surely the kingdom of God has come upon you right
01:55:3301:55:33 - you said Luke 11:20 or 20111 1120 okay yeah I flip the references there mine’s NK nkjv on mine yeah I think that’s the
01:55:4501:55:45 - parallel passage to the one that we were we were looking at in Matthew chapter 12 right all right anything else you want
01:55:5301:55:53 - to you want to say aie um I mean I I I do think the language of sent and being sent and the one who sent me um we could
01:56:0001:56:00 - go look at some references in the Gospel of John uh to examine that concept but it’s very interesting and it gets to
01:56:0601:56:06 - this point of what Jesus is claiming when he says he was sent by the father as the Son of God um yeah I I think uh
01:56:1601:56:16 - that’s um that word was they like like we said they knew exactly what he meant to us today it would be a bit ridiculous
01:56:2401:56:24 - but they knew what he was saying because I mean while they in Jewish system they
01:56:3401:56:34 - would have understood that we ultimately come from God because he made us they also knew that the Angels could be
01:56:4201:56:42 - called sons of God in the sense of their activity on behalf of God and their power and the domains and spheres of
01:56:5101:56:51 - authori that they maintained for God but this one was not a son of God he claimed to be the Son of God the one who was the
01:57:0301:57:03 - true representation of the father’s will so like they they knew what it meant they knew we today it’s not really the
01:57:1201:57:12 - way we think but it was the way they thought and they knew the the scriptures they knew prophecy they knew exactly
01:57:1901:57:19 - what he how about the definite article Angel of the Lord from the New Testament or sorry
01:57:2401:57:24 - from the Old Testament it’s the same thing um why shall we say cultural implication what he was claiming was
01:57:3101:57:31 - clear so that to tie us back into the QED here so that when Jesus called God his father that’s why they equated it in
01:57:4101:57:41 - context in cultural context they read between the lines and know and they knew that that claim was that he was equal
01:57:4701:57:47 - with god um that’s why the things are equivalent sorry we take a little bit of a round about path to get there but
01:57:5401:57:54 - that’s this verse um all right next one we’re g to look at um John chapter 10 verse
01:58:0301:58:03 - 30 pretty straightforward I and the father are one right Jesus claims it as well it’s not like we just have to read
01:58:1201:58:12 - between the lines um so uh recall that we had just estblished that the father is God and if
01:58:2101:58:21 - Jesus says that he is one with the father then Jesus Is God too that’s how that works logic wise um so this is just
01:58:2901:58:29 - well beyond what a a typical Prophet would have said right sure I mean we would say that folks like let’s say
01:58:3701:58:37 - famous Old Testament prophets Elijah Samuel maybe they were given the words of God but what we mean by that is not
01:58:4601:58:46 - equivalent to them being God or basically they can’t act like as if they have the authority of
01:58:5201:58:52 - God they have not been delegated that Authority right so you might think about this of uh in Warfare times and places
01:59:0001:59:00 - throughout history the king might send an emissary a representative to conduct like an alliance for example with
01:59:0801:59:08 - someone that person is acting with the authority of the King right but not every messenger has the authority of the
01:59:1601:59:16 - king see what I’m saying um there’s this there’s this sense of who is the represent in fact it’s even stronger
01:59:2301:59:23 - than that in the parable of the vineyard you remember how the owner of the vineyard sends people to try to reason
01:59:3101:59:31 - with the tenants and then they they kill these people and then he sends his son saying certainly they will listen to my
01:59:3701:59:37 - son right we have this idea of the son being literally the family representative right um you know in a
01:59:4701:59:47 - way that that people who simp simply work for you or not you know God sent his one and only son to us that is
01:59:5401:59:54 - stronger than God sending a beloved servant to us right although the Bible is very clear that Jesus perfectly
02:00:0002:00:00 - followed the father’s will right that that adopted kenosis Etc um you know like the Jesus’s status as fully
02:00:0902:00:09 - submitting to the father’s will but the point is is that Jesus had this Authority he was the representative of
02:00:1702:00:17 - the father um yeah the full representation of the father’s Authority they knew they knew um um in this case I
02:00:2702:00:27 - and the father are one um whatever you think of the father is applicable to me whatever you do to me you do to the
02:00:3502:00:35 - father they knew precisely what he was saying that’s why they tried to Stone him Jesus made the the claims based on
02:00:4202:00:42 - this other places where anyone who Rejects My Testimony rejects the father’s testimony right again again
02:00:4902:00:49 - Gospel of John uses this language a lot um when Jesus says that it’s because he has been given the authority right
02:00:5702:00:57 - that’s that’s why he says this is because his words carry the very weight of
02:01:0302:01:03 - God uh you know to use a close contrast I mentioned the Old Testament prophets Lisa had asked well this is definitely
02:01:1002:01:10 - stronger than just the prophets right consider uh the John the Baptist um you know we use this phrase sent from God
02:01:1902:01:19 - you know this was something that the Pharisees went you know they were afraid that the people thought that John had
02:01:2402:01:24 - been sent by God right this comes up in the gospels and so was John the Baptist asking or operating on God’s power the
02:01:3102:01:31 - answer to that question is yes of course but he was not the Messiah you know in fact John the Baptist goes well out of
02:01:3802:01:38 - his way to make that clear I am not even worthy to untie his sandals right um that’s the difference in yeah St so to
02:01:4902:01:49 - speak of those we talking about yeah good stuff so next one um also John
02:01:5802:01:58 - chapter 10 ver 33 you know this is making it very clear that Jesus was claiming to be God um you know if they
02:02:0802:02:08 - were stoning him and he wasn’t actually saying this he would have been like wait hold up guys um well I mean I say that
02:02:1502:02:15 - but there are other places like in John chapter 6 where he talks about eating his flesh and drinking his blood where
02:02:2002:02:20 - everyone takes him completely the wrong way and he doesn’t correct them right because the idea is people who are
02:02:2602:02:26 - actually interested will ask what it means rather than just assuming and picking up Stones um but Jesus really
02:02:3302:02:33 - did claim to be God as the thing um and so you know just another verse making it very clear that that’s what everyone
02:02:4202:02:42 - understood this to be um it it it wasn’t like they got this out of nowhere right um that they were picking up stones to
02:02:5202:02:52 - Stone him for his claims of being one with the father making himself out to be equal to God just like that they like
02:02:5902:02:59 - they got them all wrong basically and that’s why they were doing this right um now of course you know we don’t want to
02:03:0502:03:05 - get too reductionistic in it but they knew this in a way that maybe like we’ve been saying isn’t as so clear to us in
02:03:1102:03:11 - our cultural context but it is very much what Jesus was claiming um yeah and they understood it as such
02:03:2002:03:20 - um yeah and so basically the testimony of the of the actions of the Jews was to
02:03:2802:03:28 - say we know what you’re saying and we reject it and those of us today who go well um he didn’t say it that’s how they
02:03:3602:03:36 - understood it and they were wrong in understanding it that way but kind of missing the point I I I don’t know if
02:03:4302:03:43 - you guys know but there are people who are making an issue that um Jesus never claimed to be God in any part of the
02:03:5102:03:51 - scriptures well uh this was one of those places where he did make that claim and when they made this accusation against
02:04:0002:04:00 - him that he was claiming to be God his response was not oh you got that wrong I wasn’t making that claim but he actually
02:04:0802:04:08 - told them well if the scriptures call those to whom the word of the Lord came Gods because you know
02:04:1702:04:17 - the scriptures say are Gods he says how much more the one whom the father has Sanctified set apart for himself the one
02:04:2602:04:26 - who is not like any other human this is I will tell you this is one of those things where it is the hardness of heart
02:04:3302:04:33 - that God gives us so much room to reject him because all these people are like like come on man just answer the
02:04:4102:04:41 - question are you God yes or no and Jesus says for the Bible says ye are gods and how much more you see what I’m saying
02:04:4802:04:48 - like he doesn’t answer yes or no um and he he does this on purpose though um this is the rhetorical strategy of Jesus
02:04:5802:04:58 - so to speak um he answers this he doesn’t say it like that because it is supposed to get us to think about what
02:05:0802:05:08 - this means to give people that opportunity to turn away um so yeah and and and even even further he did tell
02:05:1602:05:16 - them that he was God he told them I am the father or one you know this is actually it’s it’s the same the same
02:05:2402:05:24 - chapter this is the same two two verses before um yeah yeah he had told them I am the father of one and they picked up
02:05:3302:05:33 - stones to Stone him and he asked them what did I do which good work are you stoning me for not for a good work it’s
02:05:4002:05:40 - because you’re claiming to be God well why is that a problem when God calls some of you Gods to whom the word of God
02:05:4902:05:49 - came I mean if he could call some of you Gods how much more the one whom he has set apart for himself the one who is
02:05:5702:05:57 - unique among all human beings that will ever exist right this was one person of all the mass of humanity that God had
02:06:0602:06:06 - set apart for himself there was no one like Jesus Christ before him and there will never be anyone like Jesus Christ
02:06:1302:06:13 - after him this was the one person who was both God and man at the same time that’s what was actually saying it is
02:06:2002:06:20 - very clear like actually this reading this passage together right these two verses Dr lugan is citing them you know
02:06:2602:06:26 - one after the other here but this passage they were stoning him because they said that it was blasphemy that he
02:06:3202:06:32 - was claiming to be like it is that’s what that claim says Jesus said that that’s what they thought it meant that
02:06:3702:06:37 - is what it meant right exactly exactly exactly and of course I love I love the way that Jesus phrases this right um
02:06:4602:06:46 - they pick up stones to Stone him and he ask for which good thing I’ve done are you starting me um you know it is uh
02:06:5402:06:54 - yeah try but you know um anyway um John chapter 10 real clear right um next one we’re gonna look at Romans chapter 9
02:07:0602:07:06 - verse 5 right this one’s a little bit harder um I don’t know how well this comes
02:07:1402:07:14 - through in the English but um who’s are you know here let me I’m going go look at the full context
02:07:2102:07:21 - here Romans nine it’s talking about Israel yeah being yeah but this this version let’s
02:07:3102:07:31 - see this is NIV um let’s see what what version did we pick it up is nasb 95 probably a
02:07:3702:07:37 - little bit more literal here it’s probably closer to what the Greek says but NIV brings out the meaning more here
02:07:4402:07:44 - that they’re saying that the Messiah is God right um like this is is a I can actually check here if there’s a
02:07:5102:07:51 - relative pronoun in the Greek um let’s check it’s Romans but I’m just curious that’s all um yeah so it
02:08:0202:08:02 - depends what you take the antecedent of this pronoun to be right here so this is the Greek relative pronoun ha which is
02:08:0802:08:08 - we would translate in English as who it’s called a relative pronoun it starts a relative Clause right uh relative
02:08:1502:08:15 - pronouns have what are called antecedents that means they point to something that came before um and the
02:08:2202:08:22 - question here is what does it point to well this noun right here hristos this is the Messiah Christ right um so
02:08:3302:08:33 - something along the lines of um Christ you know according to the flesh right who pointing back to Christ is how you
02:08:4202:08:42 - should translate this this is where the relative pronoun points to which means this text I you know I Sor I don’t want
02:08:4902:08:49 - to get super technical there but the point is that this translation when the NIV here translates that the Messiah is
02:08:5402:08:54 - the antecedent of this relative pronoun so that s we saying that Messiah is God that is the correct way to translate
02:09:0002:09:00 - this um so yeah yeah and again that’s not the point of
02:09:1002:09:10 - this passage it’s just there um you know like a just an aside about the Messiah the Messiah who is the messiah
02:09:1802:09:18 - God overall um and Jesus claimed to be the Messiah therefore Jesus claimed to be God read yes
02:09:2702:09:27 - exactly all right 1 Corinthians chapter 8 verse 6 this is this one we saw the last time
02:09:3502:09:35 - too we said from whom all things exist and we exist for him that’s the father and one Lord Jesus Christ by whom are
02:09:4302:09:43 - all things it’s what we were talking about in John chapter 1 and we exist through through him we exist for the
02:09:5002:09:50 - father exist through Christ you know clear reference here to John chapter 1 um
02:09:5602:09:56 - yeah yeah yeah so just as all things um sorry what was that
02:10:0602:10:06 - passage again sorry uh 1 Corinthians chapter 8 verse 6 yeah just as all things all things exist for the father
02:10:1602:10:16 - and from the father all things exist by Jesus Christ and through through him so that’s that’s quite an equation to me
02:10:2702:10:27 - yeah and like I said I in my mind this is a very clear reference to the agency of the Sun in creation um right if we
02:10:3602:10:36 - say in whom when Paul says in whom all things hold together other places in in the Bible we kind of get the sense that
02:10:4202:10:42 - he has the father in mind there but we know that Jesus Christ is said to be the agent in creation it’s what John chapter
02:10:5002:10:50 - 1 says um yeah yeah yeah all right Colossians chapter 2 verse 9 I don’t
02:11:0102:11:01 - know this is why I’m chuckling I don’t know how people somehow don’t believe this right um just just read it
02:11:1002:11:10 - Colossians 2 verse 9 talking about Jesus Christ here by the way for in him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily
02:11:1702:11:17 - form I mean like that’s what we’re talking about right um yeah yeah the fullness of
02:11:2702:11:27 - deity that means he’s God yes I mean like how else let me ask you people who oppose the deity of Christ what else
02:11:3702:11:37 - does this passage mean if not that Jesus is god um you know and I’m sure they have their they have their their the
02:11:4402:11:44 - ways in which they twist scripture to make it not so right I mentioned the Jehovah’s Witnesses in John chapter one
02:11:5002:11:50 - earlier squabbling over the definite article when it’s very clear that the passage says that Jesus is god um so too
02:11:5602:11:56 - here I’m sure people have their arguments all of which are complete rubbish I’m sure but this verse says
02:12:0302:12:03 - that Jesus is god um full stop end of story um or we could look at a bit more of the context it’s not
02:12:1202:12:12 - confusing yeah I mean a lot of what we’re reading doesn’t require this is actually one Reon that the Trinity the
02:12:1902:12:19 - the the teaching of the Trinity is not really that advanced it’s not even an advanced Doctrine it’s not something we
02:12:2602:12:26 - need to you know know so much to understand it’s pretty straightforward all of these things are claims that the
02:12:3302:12:33 - Bible is making explicitly about the members of the Trinity how each of them are God in this particular case um um
02:12:4302:12:43 - sorry I I need to see that passage again uh we are in 2 Corinthians chapter 2 verse 9 it’s right here says for in
02:12:5202:12:52 - Christ all the fullness of the deity Liv for yeah that’s that’s just not the
02:13:0102:13:01 - experience anyone else has this is unique to Christ that the fullness that is everything that is deity everything
02:13:0902:13:09 - that is deity lived in a bodily form it was well not contained but it was fully expressed right well this
02:13:1902:13:19 - is theology terms which we’ll get to probably if we did if we ever get to christology we we’ll get to this it’s
02:13:2602:13:26 - called the hypostatic Union right um that’s the theological jargon for fully God yet fully man how does that work
02:13:3602:13:36 - it’s what that teaching is about yes important I heard this girl say that um one time somebody asked her about God
02:13:4502:13:45 - and she said well if you’ve seen me you’ve seen my father and she was going off the you know that the spirit of God
02:13:5302:13:53 - dwells in her as a Believer but this is very different and that was wrong for her to claim
02:14:0002:14:00 - that I mean here’s how I view it first Corinthians I think second Corinthians chapter 3 talks about us reflecting
02:14:0602:14:06 - God’s glory we mirrors right Jesus Christ was not a mirror he radiated God’s glory actively see the difference
02:14:1502:14:15 - we reflect he radiates completely different things I don’t know if that’s a helpful analogy but um yes
02:14:2202:14:22 - you know like Jesus Christ is a light source we merely reflect light those are two completely different things um like
02:14:3002:14:30 - Moon does the sun right good analogy too um but yeah you you’re we are correct when we say that the fullness of deity
02:14:4002:14:40 - living in bodily form for no one else does the fullness of De live in bodily form right that’s not what it means for
02:14:4602:14:46 - us to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit that’s not what this is getting at this is getting at the second member of the
02:14:5202:14:52 - Trinity taking on flesh becoming a human being to die for us that’s what we’re talking about here um all right one more
02:15:0202:15:02 - and good stuff yeah um Hebrews chapter 1 verse3 I think I quoted this before right this is talking about Jesus being
02:15:1002:15:10 - God’s last message to humanity I love Hebrews chapter 1 um these first few verses of Hebrews are some of my
02:15:1602:15:16 - favorite just because of how strong they are this is the epicness of human history if you will right so we’re
02:15:2202:15:22 - speaking of Jesus and why God sent him and he says he is the radiance of his glory his being God God’s glory and the
02:15:2902:15:29 - exact representation of his nature and upholds all things by the word of his power when he had made purification of
02:15:3602:15:36 - sins he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high so words here exact representation of his
02:15:4502:15:45 - nature this is another thing that is quote unquote Jesus only so to speak right we as human beings are indwelt by
02:15:5302:15:53 - the Holy Spirit but we are not the exact representation of God’s nature right um so and actually you know that that
02:16:0202:16:02 - that metaphor where we just using about Jesus radiating the glory of God and US reflecting the glory of God look at this
02:16:0902:16:09 - right here says Jesus is the radiance of his glory let me pull that passage up from 2
02:16:1602:16:16 - Corinthians chapter I think this is talking about like the veil in Moses as well
02:16:2202:16:22 - um uh you know we talked about this when we were talking about lightting Glory right
02:16:2802:16:28 - um I don’t know if this there’s another passage I think that talks about going from glory to glory maybe that’s here um
02:16:3402:16:34 - anyway point being Jesus is the radiance of the glory of God um the radiance of his glory that is different than us um
02:16:4502:16:45 - Jesus here is expressely said you know we could go look at like I said I love Hebrews chapter 1 um but he’s explicitly
02:16:5202:16:52 - said you know first off to be sent by go oops Hebrews 1 not 11 um right now actually verse two very good reference
02:17:0202:17:02 - for this too Universe was made through Jesus Christ right um yeah it doesn’t work unless he’s God uh but yeah
02:17:1402:17:14 - yeah yes there really isn’t much to say about all of all of this I agree I mean I
02:17:2102:17:21 - don’t it is not a waste of time for us to go through the passages though it’s why we’re doing also note also note
02:17:2802:17:28 - we’ve talked about this before uh compared to some of the other parts of this study in uh Bible basics theology
02:17:3502:17:35 - is kind of short and if you look it’s not like I just skipped paragraphs I like I didn’t copy into the slides for
02:17:4202:17:42 - the points that we’re doing here these are the points this is all that the study says um it just is literally a
02:17:4802:17:48 - list of Bible references right because we have talked through some of this we’re trying to explain to fill in a
02:17:5502:17:55 - little bit maybe get a little bit more picture of what these passages are saying but it’s right there in the
02:18:0302:18:03 - passages right we we aren’t we aren’t going through a complicated set of steps to no you know find evidence for that
02:18:1002:18:10 - which we are discussing um yeah all right well yeah uh I think that’s where we will wrap this one um this has been
02:18:1902:18:19 - establishing that the sun is divine the sun is god um so we started talking about how the father is God now we’ve
02:18:2602:18:26 - talked about how the son is God next thing we’ll talk about is how the spirit is God as
02:18:3402:18:34 - well so now we are going to talk about how the holy spirit is God so having talked about how the father is God and
02:18:4302:18:43 - the son is God we’ve gone through many scripture passages to help support these points we’ve made we are going to be
02:18:5002:18:50 - doing the same thing for the spirit and in some ways as I know we have noted in our past discussions this is perhaps the
02:18:5802:18:58 - one that trips people up the most that has a tendency to perhaps not seem quite as straightforward as the other two
02:19:0702:19:07 - members of the Trinity but as we’ll see there are a number of passages that make the point clear enough that we don’t
02:19:1402:19:14 - have to guess at this it just like the other two members of the Trinity is something that is right there in
02:19:2002:19:20 - scripture if we just have eyes to see so with that we’re just going to go ahead and go through the passages just how
02:19:2602:19:26 - we’ve done for the last couple starting with uh the actually the second verse of the Bible here in Genesis chapter 1 um
02:19:3502:19:35 - now for those of us who follow ikus uh this is a familiar verse because this is the primary verse uh when you interpret
02:19:4402:19:44 - the Hebrew here for uh kind of translating formless and void uh also you know shows up in the book of
02:19:5102:19:51 - Jeremiah uh the Hebrew here toou Vu can translate as ruined and despoiled and we have the the was here uh the Earth was
02:20:0202:20:02 - um if you translate it a certain way based on the disjunctive Clause that comes after you can also translate it as
02:20:0902:20:09 - became and so if you translate this as the Earth became ruined and despoiled suddenly that’s a lot
02:20:1502:20:15 - different right um so this is how ikus explains the Genesis Gap that’s what this verse comes so not to get too off
02:20:2302:20:23 - on a tangent there but the operative Point here is that the spirit of God shows up in the creation narrative here
02:20:2902:20:29 - in Genesis chapter 1 um and in fact if we go look at the rest of Genesis you know it is very clear that uh God is in
02:20:3902:20:39 - view oops Genesis one uh God is in view during the creation narrative um so in the beginning God created the heavens
02:20:4602:20:46 - and the Earth and then in the very same breath as that statement then we have the spirit of God
02:20:5302:20:53 - coming in the next verse and then in verse three we have just God again and so it would be kind of strange here
02:21:0102:21:01 - within the narrative for us to go from God to spirit of God who would somehow not be God and then God again uh you
02:21:0902:21:09 - know in terms of what we would call narrative structure even if you have like a narrator or characters in a book
02:21:1702:21:17 - not that the Bible is a novel per se but you you just don’t switch subjects like that uh especially going from one to the
02:21:2502:21:25 - other and then back to the the initial one in just a sentence later uh so this is what I would call strong inferential
02:21:3202:21:32 - evidence that the spirit of God is God that they are one and the same um now of course we know from the Gospel of John
02:21:4102:21:41 - in John chapter 1 that the agent in creation was the son um there are other passages in the Bible that talk about
02:21:4802:21:48 - how through him all things were made um or maybe that’s in John too at any rate um the son is the agent of creation but
02:21:5702:21:57 - within the context of recreation at least that’s what we would say Genesis chapter 1 is if you believe in the
02:22:0502:22:05 - Genesis Gap or the idea that we have the world has been restored after the Judgment that God rendered upon the
02:22:1202:22:12 - universe for the rebellion of Satan and the angels um that the spirit of God is involved here in this chapter within the
02:22:2202:22:22 - same breath within the same breath as God you know in verse one and verse three immediately preceding and
02:22:2902:22:29 - immediately following um so AI do you have thoughts on this verse as it supports the point of the spirit is
02:22:3902:22:39 - god um uh not not really I think it’s a pretty straightforward thing there is an
02:22:4802:22:48 - an agent so to speak someone who is actually doing something and then um we see someone else in view which seems to
02:22:5802:22:58 - suggest that just like you said uh it certainly has to be well if we don’t say the same person
02:23:0702:23:07 - well they they are of a class they’re of the same class um some God is doing the creating something happened to the
02:23:1602:23:16 - creation and God is still featuring we don’t see any other person here so if the spirit
02:23:2302:23:23 - of God is here then um it’s a pretty strong uh uh correlation being made here that’s that’s it’s pretty much what you
02:23:3302:23:33 - said so I don’t really have anything for to add and I think maybe just to riff I know we’ve talked about this before I
02:23:3802:23:38 - don’t remember in exactly which segment but how God is not some sort of husk that is inhabited by a spirit right we
02:23:4502:23:45 - talked about the differences between our makeup as humans where we have flesh and spirit combined we are dichotomous
02:23:5302:23:53 - beings uh spirit is what gives us life the word for Spirit in both Greek and Hebrew actually means breath uh we
02:24:0102:24:01 - talked about all of this for the makeup of humans and then we said God is Not B uh God does not have this second part
02:24:0802:24:08 - like how we do as humans God is Spirit but when we talk of the spirit of God it’s not as if the father is somehow the
02:24:1602:24:16 - shell that Spirit resides in or or any sort of wrong-headed idea like that so uh you know just reiterating that point
02:24:2502:24:25 - that we’ve made before when we talk of the spirit of God it is not as if we say the spirit of God is to the human spirit
02:24:3302:24:33 - in a onetoone sort of correlation um it’s not the same thing and of course Angels Are Spiritual but they are
02:24:4102:24:41 - different from both us as humans and from God so um I think we talked Over All that in the past but just making
02:24:4802:24:48 - that point again so in my opinion actually there were there’s obviously quite a few passages here this was one
02:24:5402:24:54 - of the ones that I don’t think it’s maybe quite as clear it’s inferential is what I would say um if you say somehow
02:25:0002:25:00 - that the Spirit In this passage is not God then you have some explaining to do um I don’t think it’s as logically
02:25:0502:25:05 - airtight as some of the other passages which we’ll go through in a moment here so next one we’re going to look at Psalm
02:25:1302:25:13 - 139:7 um we have established previous L that one of the characteristics of God is omnipresence we talked about how
02:25:2202:25:22 - running away from God is futile just like Jonah because no matter where you go God is there um so
02:25:2902:25:29 - omnipresence is this idea that within material creation God is everywhere um and here in Psalm 139 we see that the
02:25:4002:25:40 - spirit here of God has this quality which as we have argued in the other section is what we would call an
02:25:4902:25:49 - essential characteristic of God um at least in applied with respect to Creation you know the essential
02:25:5502:25:55 - characteristic I suppose we would say is immeasurability but within creation that manifests as omnipresence and so if that
02:26:0202:26:02 - is something that characterizes God and the spirit has that then the spirit is God QED sort of how this verse supports
02:26:1002:26:10 - the idea um anything more you want to you want to add um not really I think that’s exactly the argument um we cannot
02:26:2102:26:21 - escape from the spirit of God wherever we go his presence is there so that that is essentially saying that the spirit is
02:26:3202:26:32 - God I mean it’s not saying it explicitly but it’s right there you know
02:26:4002:26:40 - y all right good deal um this one somewhat clear right I mean that’s still a couple hops in logic to get there but
02:26:4802:26:48 - once you understand that immeasurability and omnipresence are unique characteristics of God as in God is the
02:26:5402:26:54 - only being to possess those then that’s how you get there um so that’s these two now we’re going to
02:27:0202:27:02 - get to one of the ones that I think is dead clear um you really really have to do explaining away if you try to make
02:27:0902:27:09 - the spirit not God In this passage and this is in Acts chapter 5 uh with ananas and saf withholding some of the sale of
02:27:1702:27:17 - their land now this passage uh I won’t get on a super big side tangent here but uh people sometimes interpret this one
02:27:2502:27:25 - wrong so this idea that um basically if we don’t give all our money to the church then God’s going to strike us
02:27:3202:27:32 - down dead is not quite the point of the passage um the point is lying to God uh deception uh basically and specifically
02:27:4202:27:42 - to cement the apostles Authority and this is one of the things that makes this passage kind of tricky to interpret
02:27:4802:27:48 - uh from what we might call a hermeneutic point of view is like what are we to get out of this how are we supposed to apply
02:27:5402:27:54 - to our own lives that sort of thing is that the apostles were given a good deal more Authority even than Pastor teachers
02:28:0002:28:00 - today and they did signs and uh God empowered them to cast out spirits and things like this um and here in this
02:28:0902:28:09 - context this is tied up in that to a degree so we see a little bit further on in the passage that the people are given
02:28:1602:28:16 - to fear on account of this um so ananas and his wife struck down on account of deceiving um or attempting to deceive
02:28:2602:28:26 - rather the apostles and as we see here um because fundamentally it is an affront to God himself um but doesn’t
02:28:3502:28:35 - quite apply in the same way today so we’re going to kind of leave all that aside of just a little bit of background
02:28:3902:28:39 - on this passage right so I’m going to go ahead and read this this is Acts 5: 3 to 4 says uh but Peter said in IAS why has
02:28:4702:28:47 - Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land while it remained
02:28:5302:28:53 - unsold did it not remain your own and after it was sold was it not under your control why is it that you have
02:29:0102:29:01 - conceived this deed in your heart you have not lied to men but to God so in verse three we have lying to
02:29:1002:29:10 - the Holy Spirit and then in verse four Peter said that you lied to God slam dunk right there is very little way that
02:29:1902:29:19 - you can interpret this without going to Great contortions to somehow say that you know that Peter is saying that
02:29:2602:29:26 - Anan Li to two separate people here um the by far the clearest way to interpret this text is that Anan eyes lying to the
02:29:3402:29:34 - Holy Spirit dwelling within him and that the subject or sorry the person being lied to in verse three and verse four is
02:29:4102:29:41 - the same and that the holy spirit is god um questions on how that fits fits together or aie do you have anything
02:29:4802:29:48 - more to say for this one no not nothing to say on this one right like I said in my opinion this is
02:29:5602:29:56 - one of those ones that is this is one of the slam dunk ones this is the one where even if people
02:30:0302:30:03 - don’t buy the other ones maybe you can’t get out of this um this is very very clear yeah all right Acts chapter 5
02:30:1302:30:13 - verses three to four um this one is a little bit a little bit less clear in my opinion this is another one where we we
02:30:1902:30:19 - have some work to do here um so this is 1 Corinthians chapter 12 um now well it opens up in not a very pretty view here
02:30:2902:30:29 - let me this is logos um Bible study software um so uh picking up at verse 11 we are talking about the distribution of
02:30:3802:30:38 - spiritual gifts within the body so 1 Corinthians 12 uh one of the primary passages in the Bible talking about the
02:30:4702:30:47 - analogy of the church as one body and uh you know Ephesians 4 mentions gifts distributed to different people in the
02:30:5502:30:55 - church but Ephesians 12 also heavily hits that uh Verses 4 through six actually hit all three members of the
02:31:0302:31:03 - Trinity I’m not sure if we actually went over this bit but it’s another one of those places where all three show up and
02:31:0902:31:09 - Audi and I previously made the argument that once you start seeing the threes all over the New Testament the the only
02:31:1702:31:17 - good way to explain it is that the three members are God that they are the Trinity you know this is why we’ve
02:31:2402:31:24 - continue to argue all all during our discussion here that the Trinity is is in the Bible we don’t have to rely on
02:31:3102:31:31 - church councils or later people to uh somehow say that we didn’t understand intell then or whatever because uh
02:31:3802:31:38 - scripture itself obviously speaks of this Doctrine um so Verses 4 through six talk about how there’s a variety gifts
02:31:4602:31:46 - but the Same Spirit variety of Ministries and the same Lord and a variety of effects but the same God who
02:31:5102:31:51 - works all things and all persons so we take God there to be the father um so once we hop down you know in the context
02:31:5802:31:58 - of this passage um you know I’ll just read actually picking up at verse 7 just so we get the context right before verse
02:32:0502:32:05 - 11 so it says but to each one is given the manifestation of the spirit for the common good so we’re talking about
02:32:1102:32:11 - spiritual gifts here for to one is given the word of wisdom through the spirit and two another the word of knowledge
02:32:1702:32:17 - according to the same spirit and to another Faith by The Same Spirit and to another Gifts of healing by the one
02:32:2202:32:22 - spirit and to another the effecting of Miracles into another prophecy and to another the distinguishing of spirits to
02:32:2902:32:29 - another various kinds of tongues and to another the interpretation of tongues now some of these spiritual gifts that
02:32:3502:32:35 - we just went through those verses 7 through 10 uh were what we would call the transitional gifts During the period
02:32:4302:32:43 - of Acts uh this is what ichus teaches that during that time before the close of the Canon and before widespread
02:32:5002:32:50 - copies of scripture were available uh certain gifts prophecy tongues and the interpretation of tongues were used sort
02:32:5802:32:58 - of in an overtly Supernatural way to communicate God’s truth in the absence of the closed Cannon or the availability
02:33:0402:33:04 - of the closed Cannon um okay so leaving that aside that’s when we get to our verse here that Dr
02:33:1102:33:11 - lugan Bill’s reference verse 11 which says but one in the same Spirit works all these things Distributing to each
02:33:1802:33:18 - one individually just as he Wills um so I am not exactly in Dr lug Bill’s head um you know it took me a little bit
02:33:2702:33:27 - to try to figure out why is he using this verse to support uh you know the spirit’s
02:33:3202:33:32 - Divinity here um I think one of the clearer things is that um the spirit has agency here um and I know we’ve talked
02:33:4202:33:42 - about uh the spirit sort of being the impersonal member of of the Trinity the one who is in the background empowering
02:33:5002:33:50 - things but he’s the direct subject in the sentence as in um he has a verb coming I’m trying to think about the way
02:34:0002:34:00 - that doesn’t sound super grammatical here um like like he’s the agent you know he’s doing something here actively
02:34:0602:34:06 - um and uh a do you do you have thoughts um you know I I don’t want to sound unconvincing but this was one of those
02:34:1202:34:12 - verses where I mean I think the entire passage in context supports the Trinity but on this one supporting the spirit
02:34:2002:34:20 - being God directly I was kind of curious why Dr luganville pick first 11 um oh okay um I think you just if if you take
02:34:3002:34:30 - the whole thing together you know it makes sense that um 11 would be would stand out the way that it
02:34:3802:34:38 - does the we have we have um where does it talk about the father
02:34:4702:34:47 - Yes varieties of effects the same God varieties of Ministries same Lord Rises of gifts Same Spirit this is this is a
02:35:0002:35:00 - it’s like a how do how do we express it it’s more like these three are are of a Kind they’re of a
02:35:0802:35:08 - class if if there are no varieties of gifts there will be no Ministries and there will be no effects so the this is
02:35:1602:35:16 - a connection of equals and then in verse 11 one and the Same Spirit works all these things Distributing to each one
02:35:2402:35:24 - individually just as he himself Wills that’s the sort of language that you would actually apply to God you know so
02:35:3102:35:31 - I think I would actually look at it a bit more obliquely instead of um thinking in terms of these passages
02:35:3802:35:38 - support the the Trinity it would be more like this pass these passages essentially you know they they they
02:35:4602:35:46 - assume the Trinity that’s essentially the point but because um is is the spirit you know Distributing to each one
02:35:5602:35:56 - individually as God Wills as the father Wills as you know as basically he is not doing so on his own authority as God but
02:36:0702:36:07 - he does it on his authority as God he distributes to each one exactly as he pleases it’s it’s not as if he needs to
02:36:1402:36:14 - be told who to give what so he distributes the gifts according to his own will that’s a very significant
02:36:2202:36:22 - statement to make about the spirit of God you know so for those who struggle with um I I don’t think it needs to be
02:36:3002:36:30 - exactly clinical you know to speak to what we’re saying the Bible just assumes it
02:36:3802:36:38 - does not actually you know profer um what would I call it it doesn’t profer an explicit teaching of
02:36:4602:36:46 - the Trinity just as it does a lot of things it’s more like well here it is it’s it’s just it’s just something it
02:36:5302:36:53 - assumes and and presents in so many different ways that it essentially says don’t you see it I mean it’s kind of the
02:37:0002:37:00 - point I mean don’t you see it it’s it frames the entire thing it’s trying to say or it is saying it’s it doesn’t
02:37:0902:37:09 - focus on it as a thing so um yeah that’s what I would say about this verse 11 I think it’s actually a pretty it’s a it’s
02:37:1902:37:19 - a it’s each one that that we mention is even even when it seems to be a bit uh obscure is
02:37:2902:37:29 - actually by itself so enough because how would you say that the one and the Same Spirit works all these
02:37:3802:37:38 - things and it distributes to each one individually as he Wills I mean we’re talking about
02:37:4602:37:46 - um what God is looking to accomplish in the church and the spirit is acting on his own will you know that’s a very
02:37:5202:37:52 - significant thing to say so you know I guess you know how we had one of the other ones basically obliquely
02:37:5902:37:59 - referencing omnipresence right yeah you remember I I made the argument when we were talking about omniscience uh when
02:38:0702:38:07 - it comes to molinism and this idea of how does God know best before things have happened that requires for
02:38:1302:38:13 - knowledge and omniscience I I suppose you could you could say that this verse is very much getting at omniscience
02:38:2002:38:20 - right how could the spirit possibly know what gifts to distribute perfectly according to God’s plan if he was not
02:38:2702:38:27 - God um I I don’t know necessarily if that’s exactly what Dr lug and kind but you
02:38:3502:38:35 - know you can get there you know as you say um it if the spirit is not God what does this verse mean that is a fair
02:38:4402:38:44 - question yeah you know I mean I I I really and you know that’s one of the things where
02:38:5002:38:50 - um we are not necessarily teaching this Doctrine from the perspective of what I might call an apologetic fashion um as
02:38:5802:38:58 - in if I were talking to a skeptical crowd and I was like and they want me to show a verse where like it’s logically
02:39:0602:39:06 - inescapable that the spirit is God I would lead with Acts chapter 5 that passage because in that particular one
02:39:1202:39:12 - it’s like I said it’s more of a slam dunk Passage in this particular one it’s it’s more evidence right
02:39:1902:39:19 - because the most clear straightforward way to interpret this is that the spirit is God because he’s taking this action
02:39:2602:39:26 - in this way which would have to perfectly align with the plan of the other members of the Trinity for it to
02:39:3102:39:31 - make any sense and that just if he’s not God why does it happen like this right suppose you could make an argument that
02:39:3902:39:39 - he was just doing as he commanded but then why does it say as he Wills rather than as the father Wills for example you
02:39:4502:39:45 - know I mean you can get there it’s just you know yeah I I get it I get it I suppose
02:39:5202:39:52 - I just um I I don’t particularly uh uh you know frame it with respect
02:40:0002:40:00 - to um people who want to see it literally stated it’s it’s more like we much as we are looking at each passage
02:40:0902:40:09 - in isolation in the end we’re really looking at the Bible as a whole so each passage is part of you know the context
02:40:1602:40:16 - it’s part of the um whole thing so it’s essentially saying look here it’s mentioned again here is it’s imp passing
02:40:2302:40:23 - you know it may not be in your face or or explicit as you might expect but all of these passages only make sense when
02:40:3202:40:32 - you assume the Trinity once you don’t assume the Trinity meaning is lost the thing does not make sense anymore so
02:40:4202:40:42 - what would it mean if you say that the spirit one one and and the same spirit is is is giving these gifts and
02:40:5102:40:51 - distributing them entirely as he pleases as he himself Wills what does that mean for those who
02:41:0002:41:00 - say oh to make sense of the spirit of God you have to think of him as a force well what force is willing anything what
02:41:0702:41:07 - force is having a pleasing a a sense of this pleases me this is what I would like to do that an impersonal Force have
02:41:1502:41:15 - that sort of thing okay so let’s not talk about an impersonal Force this is the spirit of the father well you still
02:41:2202:41:22 - have have to deal with the context of this particular statement one and the Same Spirit Works in all of these things
02:41:2702:41:27 - well yeah that’s like saying um uh Aima um there are there are varieties of gifts but the same Aima and there are
02:41:4002:41:40 - varieties of Ministries but the same here noi basically it’s the same person is referencing just using different
02:41:4702:41:47 - words for emphasis okay great let’s work with that then when when you make these arguments and you put in the rest of the
02:41:5602:41:56 - of of of the statements from the scriptures does it make sense no you find yourself still having to deal with
02:42:0402:42:04 - things that don’t fit together but once you just when you’ve taken all of these things together you you you come down to
02:42:1302:42:13 - there are three persons here and one of them is the spirit you it’s just a natural Fallout of the reading y I mean
02:42:2202:42:22 - specifically this passage uh you know we’ll get to the other thing uh soon enough talking about how there are three
02:42:2802:42:28 - distinct persons in the Trinity right we are not Mists as Christians we don’t believe there’s one God with three modes
02:42:3402:42:34 - or aspects this is a good passage for that actually because the passage makes no sense interpretation wise if you say
02:42:4102:42:41 - it’s all just the same being right um yeah well you know sufficient there too is our discussion I think um one more of
02:42:5102:42:51 - what I would call the slam dunk references that we’re going to go through here um this involves a passage
02:42:5602:42:56 - from the Old Testament being quoted in the New Testament and you’ll see why this is important in its reference
02:43:0502:43:05 - so this is Hebrews chapter 3 so the writer of Hebrews says therefore just as the holy spirit says today if you hear
02:43:1302:43:13 - his voice do not Harden your hearts as when they provoked me in the day of trial in the
02:43:1702:43:17 - wilderness uh and then so on talking about the hardness of Hearts of the generation that wandered in the
02:43:2402:43:24 - wilderness for 40 years so this is Hebrews chapter 3: 7 through 11 says therefore just as the holy spirit says
02:43:3002:43:30 - and then this is quoting Psalm chapter 95 and uh you know verse seven in Psalm
02:43:3802:43:38 - chapter 95 says for he is our God and we are the people of his pasture and the Sheep of his hand today if you would
02:43:4402:43:44 - hear his voice his being uh definite having the antecedent of God here um do not Harden your hearts as in marah as in
02:43:5302:43:53 - the day of mass in the wilderness so here his voice is said to be God and then when Paul quotes it or the writer
02:44:0002:44:00 - of Hebrews if you don’t take HEB to be Paul um says that the holy spirit says this the holy spirit is directly equated
02:44:0802:44:08 - with god um because it’s directly quoting uh this Psalm here like the wording that you see
02:44:1502:44:15 - here is like it it is I mean so Hebrews the book of Hebrews is written in Greek um Psalm 95 would have been written in
02:44:2302:44:23 - Hebrew whether it’s a direct quote from the seant or whether the writer of Hebrews paraphrased from the Hebrew
02:44:2902:44:29 - directly um either way I actually don’t know off the top of my head for this one which one it is um but either way this
02:44:3602:44:36 - is a very clear quotation of Psalm 95 and so that’s where we get the direct equivalence made between uh God’s voice
02:44:4402:44:44 - here uh in verse 7 of Psalm 95 and the Holy Spirit being the one speaking in verse chapter 7 of Hebrews chapter 3 or
02:44:5402:44:54 - sorry verse seven of Hebrews chapter 3 so uh this is actually one of my favorite passages for defending the
02:45:0302:45:03 - Trinity whenever I’ve had to engage with uh atheists and others about the Trinity I would always say especially those who
02:45:1202:45:12 - insist that the holy spirit is not a person and like well makesense you know right Mak sense of this and
02:45:2102:45:21 - again we we are not even close to exhausting all the references and scriptures to the persons of the Trinity
02:45:2902:45:29 - and you know all the all basically all the references that have anything to do with with the Trinity these are just a
02:45:3702:45:37 - sampling and some of them are really a very strong obvious sampling we if we correlate um Hebrews 3 with Psalm 95 we
02:45:4702:45:47 - can I think Psalm 97 sorry which one is it it’s Psalm 95 here yeah that’s Psalm 95 yeah so um if we if we were to put
02:45:5902:45:59 - them side by side we can see oh at least Paul takes uh the the the psalm to be referring to the Holy Spirit but you
02:46:1002:46:10 - know then you have people who have absolutely no respect for the Bible saying well Paul might have been wrong
02:46:1702:46:17 - there or we know that Hebrews has this problem or that problem so we can’t admit it as evidence or you know they
02:46:2402:46:24 - come up with all sorts of excuses for rejecting that um bottom line is in so far as you accept Hebrews as part of the
02:46:3202:46:32 - Bible you have to accept that the holy spirit is speaking with the authority of God and he’s speaking as a person there
02:46:4102:46:41 - so but then I what I found um really first of all I don’t like making I’m not interested really in persuading people
02:46:5002:46:50 - about what the scriptures teach and what they don’t teach I want to lay out exactly what I’ve seen in the Bible and
02:46:5602:46:56 - each person can make their decisions as say please but I’ve seen that when when I had to deal with arguments that were
02:47:0602:47:06 - about for example the um personality that that is that that the holy spirit is a person
02:47:1502:47:15 - when I’ve had to deal with that okay no when I’ve had to deal with the argument that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are
02:47:2202:47:22 - separate persons from the father it has been very very tough because if you were to present this passage to such a person
02:47:2902:47:29 - they would be like sure it’s still the father speaking we’re not saying that the spirit does not speak we’re saying
02:47:3402:47:34 - that the father and the spirit are the same so of course the spirit can’t speak well that that makes no difference you
02:47:3902:47:39 - know so those who are models so to speak wouldn’t have any problems dealing with these passages the spirit is speaking oh
02:47:4802:47:48 - sure the spirit speaks so what we’re not saying he doesn’t speak we’re just saying that he’s the father was saying
02:47:5402:47:54 - he’s the same as as the son and I’ve actually argued with someone I’ve debated someone who actually said look
02:48:0202:48:02 - that when Jesus went into the water and Rose up out of the water it was himself speaking from Heaven to himself and also
02:48:1302:48:13 - a lighting from heaven upon himself it was like how can you make this how does it work in your head all of this stuff
02:48:2302:48:23 - you can put it together in one mind and it works for you but that’s exactly how people can get when it comes to the
02:48:3102:48:31 - truth we have we can’t we can’t underestimate people’s um capacity to reject the truth and to make up their
02:48:3902:48:39 - own excuse their own um uh contortions and and Replacements and substitutions for the truth so what we
02:48:4902:48:49 - can say definitively without any doubt is that the Bible presents the Holy Spirit here
02:48:5402:48:54 - as speaking and as having a will of his own because he is reacting in a way that I mean a lot of people who like to think
02:49:0102:49:01 - of the Holy Spirit as retiring and shy and all of that would be pretty shocked when they actually see that what is
02:49:0702:49:07 - being said in Hebrews 3 is that he was angry with his generation and swore that they would never enter his into his rest
02:49:1402:49:14 - some something that seems to fit more um with the personality of the father than you would expect of the Holy Spirit and
02:49:2202:49:22 - yet this is the holy spirit of whom it is being spoken so um yeah everything we see here speaks to what we have seen in
02:49:3302:49:33 - the Bible that there are three persons and one of them is the holy spirit that’s that’s it yep well uh sort of
02:49:4202:49:42 - interesting aside here we know from Hebrews chapter four actually that the rest of God you know the continuous
02:49:4702:49:47 - Sabbath rest we actually enter that through the indwelling Holy Spirit now that we are all indwelt by the spirit in
02:49:5302:49:53 - the New Testament I’m not so far I’m not so sure I would go so far as to say that that is explicitly in view but you know
02:50:0002:50:00 - it does come right after Hebrews chapter 3 so interesting side note there um when he talks about my rest holy spirit is
02:50:0802:50:08 - the gatekeeper of that because it is through the spirit that we in the modern day um indwelt by the spirit re go into
02:50:1702:50:17 - that continual Sabbath rest of God that Hebrews chapter 4 talks about um so fun fact um so I’ll leave these verses up
02:50:2502:50:25 - we’ll come back to them um as we go through uh the next uh the next study which will be that there are three
02:50:3402:50:34 - persons in the Trinity but this was the last passage that we had here for um supporting that the idea that the holy
02:50:4302:50:43 - spirit is God I’m actually we have a verse from 2 Corinthians up on the slide as well 2 Corinthians 3:17 says that the
02:50:5002:50:50 - Lord is the spirit and where the Lord’s spirit is there is freedom um uh interesting that the Lord is the spirit
02:50:5702:50:57 - so modus would be cool with that but then the way it’s worded is that we have you know uh the Lord being possessive
02:51:0502:51:05 - here um so be probably genitive in Greek um before spirit so the Lord is the spirit and where the Lord’s spirit
02:51:1302:51:13 - is makes no sense unless they’re both God right um so all these verses as we have been
02:51:2102:51:21 - saying is not completely representative of literally all the references to the trinity in the Bible you know we’ve gone
02:51:2702:51:27 - across quite a few here with respect to the father and the son and the spirit um but the point is the Bible all over the
02:51:3502:51:35 - place supports this notion that the members of the Trinity are God um so uh a you have anything else else to say on
02:51:4502:51:45 - the spirit specifically uh before we close out this lesson uh no I think I think it’s it’s
02:51:5202:51:52 - it’s quite enough so far yeah okay good deal so now that we have finished discussing the spirit we have gone
02:52:0302:52:03 - through all three members of the Trinity talking through many verses supporting each so in this lesson we have been
02:52:1102:52:11 - talking about how all three me members of the Trinity are deity so God is one in essence but that does not mean that
02:52:2002:52:20 - only one person of the Trinity is deity or is divine or is God and so we’ve talked about how the father is God the
02:52:2602:52:26 - son is God and the Holy Spirit is God actually the very first thing that we had opened with was talking about how we
02:52:3402:52:34 - are going to be kind of examining what the Trinity is by pointing out things that it is not and so in this first one
02:52:4102:52:41 - the thing that we were pointing out that the Trinity is not is that just because God is one in essence doesn’t mean that
02:52:4702:52:47 - only one member of the Trinity is divine um or is deity and in the next lesson we are going to be picking up arguing that
02:52:5602:52:56 - even though God is one in essence he is still three in person so God is not one in person but three in person that is
02:53:0302:53:03 - going to be what our next lesson focuses on