All Members of the Trinity Are Distinct Persons

Video/audio transcript

00:0100:01 - all right guys so in the next lesson of our study of the Trinity here going through Bible basics part one theology
00:0900:09 - we are going to be talking about how all three members of the Trinity are distinct persons so in terms of the
00:1700:17 - essential points we’re going to be going over we’re going to be introducing this General Point uh talking about how even
00:2300:23 - though God is one in essence it does not mean that the Trinity is only one person merely displaying three modes or aspects
00:3100:31 - of himself um and so that is the point that we are making here um and if you recall we had discussed how the practice
00:3900:39 - that we are going through right now is kind of talking about what the Trinity is in terms of what it is not and so uh
00:4600:46 - this particular aspect um or this particular point in that uh sort of way of thinking about things that we are
00:5400:54 - organizing our study with uh is basically making the point that God is not just one one being God is three
01:0101:01 - distinct well I gotta be very careful how I say this God is one in essence so he is one being that’s what one in
01:0601:06 - essence mean but he has three persons um God is not one person um so if you recall the general definition of the
01:1501:15 - Trinity that we argue for is three in person one in essence or one in essence three in person and this is defending
01:2201:22 - the three in person part and so uh we don’t have quite as many verses this time as we did in uh the last section
01:2801:28 - going over all three MERS of the Trinity being God we just kind of have a one for most of these points here but we’re
01:3601:36 - going to be talking about how the father is a unique person is own right for he’s distinct from the son the son’s unique
01:4201:42 - person’s own right for he’s distinct from the father and the Holy Spirit is a unique person in his own right because
01:4801:48 - he acts as a distinct person so these are the points that we’re going to be going over as we establish uh The Wider
01:5401:54 - point that just because God is one in essence does not mean that the Trinity is only one
02:0302:03 - person so when we say that God is one in essence but not one in person um kind of what we’re getting at here is that
02:1402:14 - God uh sorry is that all three members of the Trinity are distinct rather than all being manifestations of a single
02:2202:22 - multifaceted person so um typically in theology um you’ll hear this referred to as modalism the idea that the son or the
02:3202:32 - spirit are somehow just modes of God um so uh that believe is is down here right here modalism um there’s another one
02:4202:42 - docetism the notion that Christ only seemed real and was sort of a phantom of sorts representing the father’s plan
02:4902:49 - probably not not quite as common um something that you might come up against in terms of the Trinity it is a
02:5602:56 - historical heresy relating to uh this particular point that we are making here but by far most common challenge to
03:0403:04 - proper understanding of the Trinity is this idea of modalism that Christ and the spirit are just modes of the
03:0903:09 - father’s personality rather than being separate persons in their own right um and just to take a step back and talk a
03:1603:16 - little bit about why do we even have to do this it’s because it’s really hard to think about how United the three members
03:2403:24 - of the Trinity are without getting the notion that they’re one person and the reason for that is because for as humans
03:3003:30 - if you take three people and you stick them together and even if they agree on so many things they do not have the sort
03:3903:39 - of unity that the Trinity has um the Bible’s very clear about that human beings we don’t share an Essence we are
03:4503:45 - not one in the same being even people like identical twins right um so the scientist would say that they have
03:5203:52 - identical genetic code yet it’s very obvious to us as humans that they are not the same they don’t have the same
03:5903:59 - way will if you will um so they don’t have the same human spirit is what we would say um they are separate beings
04:0604:06 - very obviously separate beings because they choose different things um they do not have that Unity of will that God is
04:1404:14 - said is having and so why we kind of have to spend some breath arguing this point that we’re making here is because
04:2004:20 - God is described as having one Essence being perfectly United in will and yet not just being one person and so we have
04:2904:29 - to spend some time on that not one person thing because for us as humans we don’t have a good analog in the human
04:3504:35 - world for this because anytime you have multiple persons you do not have the unity of will that God has said to have
04:4104:41 - and so it’s why it’s just kind of hard for us to kind of metabolize and why it’s worth spending some time talking
04:4704:47 - about it’s not just because there were some people in the past who didn’t believe this and and you were trying to
04:5304:53 - lead everyone away in heresy or whatever it’s it’s not as if this is just a historical thing that we’re kind of
04:5804:58 - covering because gwiz some people in the past were wrong it’s because it is actually difficult for us to
05:0405:04 - conceptualize in our head properly what it means for God to be three in person but yet have that Unity uh uh unity in
05:1205:12 - action that the Trinity manifests so this is the topic that we’re going to be covering here Audie do you have initial
05:2005:20 - thoughts on this point that we’re going to be making here before we jump right into establishing it for each member of
05:2605:26 - the Trinity not really I think we can okay great so picking up we are going to be
05:3705:37 - talking about how scripture is very clear that the father is a unique person in his own right because he’s distinct
05:4405:44 - from the son so I did kind of mention how we don’t have as many passages um given as support here for the last point
05:5105:51 - that doesn’t mean that these are any less certain uh truths that we ought to believe it’s just just we don’t we
05:5805:58 - haven’t listed as many here here um so the passage that we are going to be using here to support the notion that
06:0306:03 - the father is unique in his own right because he’s distinct from the son is this passage from Daniel chapter 7 verse
06:1006:10 - 13 so I’ll go ahead and read this and then we’ll talk about it a bit so Daniel 7113 says I was looking during my vision
06:1706:17 - of that night and behold with the Clouds Of Heaven one like a son of man was coming up and he approached the Ancient
06:2406:24 - of Days that is the father and they brought him before him well first him is Son of Man second hym is the Ancient of
06:3306:33 - Days so why are we using this to establish that the father is separate from the son is because the son of man I
06:4206:42 - mean I suppose you have to do some interpretation to get there um now Daniel is one of those eological texts
06:4806:48 - this is this is specifically prophetic here um but the son of man is Jesus Christ um when you interpret it when you
06:5606:56 - interpret it correctly that’s definitely who the son of man is um so the son of man is Jesus Christ the son in the
07:0207:02 - Trinity and the Ancient of Days when you interpret it correctly um again I suppose you have to do some L work to
07:0807:08 - get there but the Ancient of Days is very clearly the father um and so how can the son come before the father if
07:1707:17 - the son is the father it just makes no sense to say that um this doesn’t stop people from saying it but they’re just
07:2407:24 - wrong is the thing um because no matter how they try to explain this it always ends up getting all twisted and messed
07:3107:31 - up because it just doesn’t fit with what the text is saying how can you have one being who comes before himself in two
07:3907:39 - separate forms it just that’s not how that’s not how we say a being has that Unity right
07:4807:48 - um so how is one being split in actually two separate beings uh you know like for example when we face when we Face
07:5607:56 - ourselves in the mirror we understand that’s just the reflection of light we aren’t actually two separate beings but
08:0108:01 - what you would have to argue that God is one person it has two separate aspects of himself here is that there are one
08:1108:11 - being kind of manifesting in two ways at the same time which is kind of the very definition of what we would call
08:1808:18 - different persons right um so uh I don’t know maybe I’m not doing a very job in terms of like philosophical jargon
08:2608:26 - saying the right things in like a formal flow of logic but that’s the idea here that’s why we say the son cannot be the
08:3408:34 - father because it just doesn’t make sense given what this passage says aie would you like to add any points to what
08:4008:40 - I’ve started with um Can can you hear me yeah I can hear you can you all hear me yeah I can hear you can you hear
08:5008:50 - us okay um so uh I don’t I don’t I don’t think there is much to say actually in the previous discussion we
09:0109:01 - were having I think um many of those passages actually present this same discussion uh father being unique in his
09:1009:10 - own right being distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit um that’s actually how we know
09:1809:18 - because as you read through the Bible you keep seeing these things that don’t make sense when you think of God as a
09:2509:25 - single as a single person in his personhood you know some things that are said of him wouldn’t uh line up then um
09:3609:36 - so that we see that the father uh is demonstrated to be a person um by himself that makes sense the passage in
09:4609:46 - Daniel 713 um may not be very popular among Believers but it’s um there are many things in that Gem of a story
09:5609:56 - including how the Leake of fire is formed formed and all of that stuff but critically there was one who was like a
10:0410:04 - son of man who was brought to this Ancient of Days we know that the son of man being spoken of there was the Lord
10:1010:10 - Jesus himself and um the the ancient of these is is presented as being separate from this son of man so yeah it there
10:2310:23 - are other passages too in the Bible that that lead us to these um appreciations that um the father is a unique person
10:3210:32 - separate from the other two members of the um Trinity
10:3810:38 - yeah all right well that’s where we’ll do as I say just a single passage here for each member so this is the father
10:4610:46 - being distinct from the son um next we’re going to talk about how son is distinct from the Father which you kind
10:5110:51 - of get from this one we’ll look at another passage in just a moment so just as we talked about how
11:0111:01 - the father’s distin from the son well kind of it goes both ways but we’re going to look at another passage here
11:0711:07 - also on this particular uh Point saying that the son is unique person for he distinct from the father so uh for this
11:1511:15 - we’re going to look at Hebrews chapter 10 verse 7 um it says behold I have arrived in the scroll of your book it is
11:2211:22 - written about me to do your will oh my god um so and we open up more of the surrounding in context here in Hebrews
11:3011:30 - chapter 10 uh Hebrews chapter 10 verse 7 is where we are uh so the person speaking
11:3711:37 - here is Christ because that’s what verse 5 in Hebrews chapter 10 says so I’ll actually go ahead and read this whole
11:4111:41 - passage it says uh chapter uh chapter 10 verse 5 therefore when Christ came into the world he said sacrifice and offering
11:4811:48 - you did not desire but a body you prepared for me with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased then
11:5511:55 - I so I being Christ said then I said here I am it is written about me in the scroll I have come to do your will my
12:0412:04 - God so how would we say it makes sense for
12:1112:11 - Christ because Christ is the one Speaking here um to speak about so actually interestingly this is
12:2012:20 - NIV um in the translation here which I suppose comes from ichus we have a y
12:2912:29 - it might be pronoun there I could go check the Greek I suppose but basically either way I’m sorry that was just me
12:3612:36 - getting curious um the point being is that it’s very clear that Christ is saying that he came into the world from
12:4212:42 - the father’s will right the will of another we would say um although of course there’s one you know the unity of
12:4912:49 - the members of the Trinity means that when things happen they all will it because of that Unity but um this is
12:5512:55 - another passage supporting that idea that the personhood of the members of the Trinity sort of is just essential to
13:0413:04 - make the passages make sense because as soon as you start trying to argue that Jesus Christ is simply an aspect of the
13:1213:12 - father what does this passage in Hebrews chapter 10 even mean if you believe that um and uh you know more to the point if
13:2213:22 - we were supposed to understand it that way a lot of parts of the Bible just become really impenetrable um so so uh
13:2913:29 - there is a sort of uh risk we would say to trying to apply aam’s razor to interpretation large because there are
13:3813:38 - some points of biblical truth that are very complicated um so I’m going to use as a smear word here this is not a
13:4513:45 - positive term I’m going to say that things that seem really esoteric or mystical as in all people throughout
13:5213:52 - history have like misinterpreted this passage and only I have the correct interpretation when people say that sort
13:5813:58 - of thing especially if it bounds into something that we would sort of call mysticism or this idea of very special
14:0614:06 - knowledge this this new way of looking at something and yet no matter how much you press them they can’t like formulate
14:1214:12 - it in terms of propositions it’s always sort of vague and hard to understand and and impenetrable is a good word yeah you
14:2014:20 - shouldn’t believe that sort of thing right and here the point I’m making is that trying to interpret this passage
14:2614:26 - trying to interpret the passage that we had just read um in the previous section talking about Daniel chapter 7 trying to
14:3414:34 - interpret these passages with the father and the son being literally the same person it just doesn’t make sense um so
14:4214:42 - people like I said they may try to talk circles around you and explain thus and so and and you know basically and not
14:5014:50 - that I have had very many serious debates uh among Christians or you know people at least claiming Christ about
14:5614:56 - this because to be perfectly honest nowadays there aren’t that many Mists I mean they’re out there AI has has said
15:0215:02 - that he’s actually had serious conversations about it before but what I’m trying to boil this down to is that
15:0815:08 - when you try to interpret these passages while making them the same person it just makes everything so complicated and
15:1715:17 - so not straightforward so that everything requires explanation that it is just obviously not the right
15:2215:22 - interpretation um so uh hopefully that’s not too handwavy um I think this is quite clear just how I think Daniel
15:3015:30 - chapter 7 is quite clear um aie do you have further thoughts on this
15:3715:37 - [Music] um not quite I think that this passage um always appealed to me
15:4515:45 - because of um how uh in uh the reference the the part of the law that this was taken from um we have a different
15:5715:57 - rendering there yeah instead of um uh okay it was from the PS actually in
16:0516:05 - the sum it said that my did it say a body you had prepared for me my ears you have pierced that’s
16:1416:14 - what it said and uh when you when you look at the part of the law that it was referencing it says that a servant who
16:2216:22 - says that he does not want to leave you no he he is very happy to be part of your family and he wants to
16:3116:31 - remain so for the rest of his days um you’re supposed to pierce his ear uh with an all um and that would be uh like
16:4116:41 - a way to tell anyone who sees him that he belongs to a particular house even though he’s not related to that house by
16:4816:48 - Blood maybe something of that sort so um what we see is this uh a body you have prepared for me that used to stump me a
16:5716:57 - bit but then when you relate these two ideas it really comes down to um you get um this body that I have is meant to be
17:0817:08 - used in service to you so like this person opted for Lifetime slavery this Jew who had his ear pierced
17:2117:21 - um here the Lord Jesus is is expressing the same thing which of course I think should be rather
17:3117:31 - obvious as to uh how it it says that um he is not the father that he’s a separate person from the father I mean
17:4017:40 - there are still those who do believe that since it is God anything is possible so he can um be a sleeve to
17:4617:46 - himself but then yeah I I don’t see how that fits yeah I I will say I don’t know why I I must have missed it or something
17:5417:54 - because the slide obviously says your will right I I must have just misspoken earlier
18:0018:00 - because this has your too and I checked the Greek this is the second person pronoun here your um it makes the
18:0718:07 - argument real straightforward because the will that Christ discusses In this passage here is not his right it’s not
18:1618:16 - my will it’s your will right second person it literally you know how we have persons in grammar it is using a
18:2418:24 - separate person in grammar um hence more than one person in the Trinity right um yeah you know like it it’s it’s really
18:3218:32 - that simple um because if Christ can speak of the father’s will as being not my will not his own
18:4218:42 - will they simply cannot be the same person um it’s it’s I I don’t know what I was getting at earli I must have just
18:5018:50 - like been looking at something that was wrong but it is the second person pronoun which makes that argument real
18:5618:56 - straightforward um yeah yeah all right now as we’ve said before um just as in the other section these are not the only
19:0419:04 - passages we could pull to support these things we’re just kind of making the points as we go along here so this was
19:1019:10 - establishing that the son is distinct person from the father right we’ve done that um so we did that in Daniel chapter
19:1719:17 - 7 we were I guess kind of coming at it from the perspective of the father Hebrews chapter 10 coming that from the
19:2219:22 - perspective of the sun next we will be talking about the spirit and the spirit’s distinct personhood
19:3219:32 - so now we’re going to talk about how the holy spirit is a unique person is well in his own right for he acts as a
19:3919:39 - distinct person so the passage this time again we got one verse per these points here uh just in this part of the study
19:4719:47 - passage this time Romans chapter 8 verse 26 um says the spirit helps us in our weakness in a similar way for we do not
19:5519:55 - know what we ought to pray for but the spirit himself self intercedes for us also with anguish supplications with
20:0120:01 - which words cannot express right um so passage this actually comes right before the uh uh for knowledge you know like
20:0920:09 - the end of Romans chapter 8 I think it’s like verses 29- 31 talk about you know like uh God’s for knowledge and calling
20:1720:17 - justifying glorifying that that passage but talking about how the spirit prays for us he intercedes for us and when we
20:2520:25 - pray you know we we pray to the father in the name of Jesus Christ I could go find verses to support that what I just
20:3120:31 - said um but when we pray we pray to God um addressed to the Father the spirit is interceding for us how can the spirit
20:4220:42 - intercede to the father shall we say if the spirit is the father you see what I’m saying like it
20:5020:50 - again this is one of those situations where you start trying to argue for a modalist position and it just doesn’t
20:5720:57 - make sense because you ask someone what does that mean
21:0221:02 - precisely like basically redu you ad absurdum is what we would call it in terms of logic if you say that the
21:0921:09 - spirit is the father and the father is the spirit and that there is you know one God and one God means one
21:1621:16 - person what does this verse mean then if you interpret it that way and you will just never get a satisfying answer out
21:2421:24 - of someone if you press them on that because there isn’t a satisfying answer like they can go through all the
21:3021:30 - gymnastics as I’ve been arguing and you know um you know it might have been good if I went and actually tried to find an
21:3621:36 - argument here so that it wasn’t just me saying oh some people actually say this but you know like I had a representative
21:4221:42 - argument from one of them but the point that I have been making and uh maybe maybe it sounds like I’m straw Manning
21:4821:48 - here but the point is if people try to do that presumably they have some way to say that this verse doesn’t mess up
21:5521:55 - their interpretation but no matter what they say it’s going to be overly long and complicated and just obviously not
22:0122:01 - right is the point now uh because again uh I feel like the spirit is one of those that
22:0922:09 - sometimes it’s perhaps the one that we struggle the most with um when we talk about aspects of the Trinity um I pulled
22:1622:16 - up this verse this is one that we talked about um at the very beginning of the last lesson as well when we were talking
22:2122:21 - about how all three members of the Trinity are God here um so this is when Jesus is asking the father
22:2822:28 - uh for the holy spirit so he’s telling the people in John chapter 14 uh verse 16 so I will ask the father and he will
22:3622:36 - give you another Advocate to help you and be with you forever that Advocates the spirit Jesus is asking the father to
22:4422:44 - give another person I feel like if there’s one verse in the Bible that makes clear that there are three persons
22:5222:52 - in the Trinity it’ be this verse right um for the reasons that we been saying before right if if there’s one person in
23:0223:02 - the Trinity what in the world would this verse even mean then yeah one person I am asking myself to send myself how does
23:1123:11 - that make sense right yeah um yeah of course uh as we said there are those who would essentially say that because he’s
23:2023:20 - God we won’t understand one mysteries of God and all of that stuff it doesn’t have to make sense to us but um like we
23:3023:30 - said this this is not something we see in isolation the rest of the Bible speaks to it but this is a demonstration
23:3723:37 - of the um uh personhood of the of the spirit as a separate thing from the personhood of
23:4423:44 - the father and the personhood of the spirit of of the son sorry so he essentially says just as we we we the
23:5323:53 - Bible tells us that that he intercedes that is he prays for us he prays on our behalf he makes requests on our behalf
24:0224:02 - to who to himself just as Paul as Stephen pointed out that
24:1124:11 - is insane to think that he would be making requests to himself but some people are fine with uh Insanity when it
24:2024:20 - comes to God because they believe that because he’s God nothing makes sense with him and everything is acceptable of
24:2824:28 - everything makes sense no matter how ridiculous it is but this is the Bible’s one of the Bible’s
24:3424:34 - demonstrations of uh the personhood of the spirit as a separate thing from the personhood of the other persons of the
24:4024:40 - Trinity yeah yeah I mean I would say not to get off on too big a tangent but we are right to hold philosophy at arms
24:4924:49 - length a bit I know we talked about this in some of the the first lessons in this series here in in bb1 theology uh making
24:5724:57 - the point when people split hairs about nature and Essence and what essential characteristics are and things like that
25:0225:02 - right would God be God if he wasn’t ex right or you know what I’m talking about like that sort of thing where
25:1025:10 - philosophers they they they make certain boxes about things and I’m not trying to bash philosophers here right um uh or
25:1825:18 - philosophy large as a practice of being Analytical in how we think about the world and things like this but we as
25:2425:24 - Christians we submit to the Bible not to the Wom of professional secular philosophers and there is something to
25:3325:33 - be said for not swinging too far the other way which is submitting to what we would call a mystical understanding
25:4025:40 - where you know for lack of a better word God’s elogical but we just say well that’s just that’s fine you know because
25:4725:47 - we can’t understand him um this is the whole you know I’m trying to think about the right way to say this you know
25:5425:54 - perhaps uh certain very well educated atheists might might think that Christians are kind of dumb right they
26:0026:00 - are anti-education they can’t talk intelligently about topics because they just say oh have faith and then they
26:0726:07 - never even articulate their own positions um I am not trying to bash our brothers and sisters here because the
26:1426:14 - Bible says we are we ought to have childlike Faith right for lack of a better way of putting it childlike faith
26:2126:21 - is not dissertations in analytic philosophy right um you see what I’m saying um yeah so we don’t need to be
26:2826:28 - ashamed of being like well the Bible says so so there um you know however where I’m going with this is that this
26:3826:38 - idea that we have to believe nonsense because that’s what it is right fundamentally what we’re talking about
26:4426:44 - here where these people say that the spirit intercedes to himself it’s just nonsensical on the face of it it’s like
26:4926:49 - a contradiction on the face of it right um yeah so we ought to have childlike faith in the Bible but we don’t turn off
26:5726:57 - our brains to believe whatever someone says the Bible says um you know you know Audi and I have had a conversation quite
27:0627:06 - recently actually I’m talking about in interpretation when we talk about we need to take the Bible at its word right
27:1327:13 - and we need to be reasonable um uh you know I I won’t pull in the whole context of that P other
27:1927:19 - discussion but basically when we interpret the Bible we have to interpret it reasonably and the
27:2627:26 - point here is that how just how other people get offended when you take their words out of context and you try to make
27:3327:33 - their words mean something that they obviously don’t mean well we need to stake down our flag and call people out
27:3927:39 - when they do that to the Bible too right because there are certain lines that we just can’t cross when it comes here and
27:4727:47 - saying somehow that the spirit interceding to himself because the spirit is is the father and the father’s
27:5427:54 - the spirit it’s one of those lines where when when people start going there I mean like you got to stick down
28:0228:02 - a flag somewhere right and like I said God does not submit us he God does not have us believe nonsense um despite that
28:0928:09 - being a strawman argument that atheists might use against Christians is that I don’t know we don’t think things through
28:1528:15 - maybe we don’t hold intellectually rigorous positions their straw man in
28:1928:19 - Christianity is what’s happening there um yeah yeah all right so um perhaps more we could about um holy spirit’s
28:2928:29 - distinctness as well so we talked about Romans 826 we pulled up this verse in John chapter 14 as well talking about uh
28:3628:36 - Jesus Christ uh you know asking the father to send the spirit and how honestly this verse kind of hits all
28:4228:42 - three of them right is that the only way in which this verse makes any sort of sense is if all three of them are
28:4728:47 - persons um because otherwise you have you know the son who is the father asking the father for to send the father
28:5528:55 - right if you view them all in terms of one person it just what does that even mean right it doesn’t make sense it
29:0129:01 - contradicts itself on the face of it it’s why that interpretation is unworkable um
29:0729:07 - so that’s probably where we’ll wrap our discussion here of the idea that the spirit is well is a unique person in his
29:1629:16 - own right for he acts distinctly right he intercedes for us before God when we pray which wouldn’t make any sense if he
29:2529:25 - wasn’t a distinct person so as promised this lesson a little bit shorter here not going to go belver too
29:3729:37 - much of what we talked about uh but just in review we have talked about how all three members of the Trinity are their
29:4529:45 - own unique persons so even though God is one in essence that’s this main point we’re talking about here God is one in
29:5129:51 - essence that does not mean that the Trinity is only one person but it has as three persons and we’ve talked about
29:5929:59 - these passages that just on the face of it clearly support this idea that even though God has this Unity of will this
30:0730:07 - single Essence um he cannot be the same person because then how could the son of man approach the Ancient of Days as a
30:1630:16 - separate person how could um Jesus Christ in Hebrews chapter 10 be talking about the father’s will right um how uh
30:2630:26 - things about Christ were written in your will um and how could the Holy Spirit here be interceding for us when we pray
30:3430:34 - if the holy spirit is the exact same person as the father for example um so those were some of the passages we
30:4030:40 - brought in to support this topic but the general overarching idea and as we said this is not meant to be completely
30:4730:47 - exhaustive um you know I guess I should also mention this verse that we talked about in John Chapter 14 verse 16
30:5230:52 - another one where the son asks the father for the spirit to be sent all of these all of these things point to the
30:5930:59 - clear conclusion that even though God is one in essence God is not one in person um and so that’s where we’ll wrap this
31:0831:08 - and uh in future lessons we will be examining a couple more of these uh of these statements about what the Trinity
31:1531:15 - is not so that once we finish it all we will have that clear understanding of exactly what the Trinity is