Introduction - The Trinity

Video/audio transcript

0:000:00 - all right so now that we have uh fully discussed the essence of God that’s what
0:050:05 - we’ve spent the last few lessons talking about we’re going to move on to this other section in uh Bible basics part
0:120:12 - one theology on ichus talking about the uh study of God and now we’re going to
0:180:18 - move into discussing the Trinity and so this is obviously an important topic for
0:230:23 - us um in fact it’s about as core a concept as any we have in Christianity and that is one of the reasons why it
0:300:30 - has kind of presented an existential threat to truth in the church um it came under attack early on in Christian
0:360:36 - history um several different uh flavors of attack you know people who would
0:420:42 - question the humanity of Christ or the deity of Christ especially in regards to the Trinity saying that Jesus Christ was
0:480:48 - just a human that he wasn’t actually god um and obviously that is a existential
0:540:54 - threat to our belief as Christians uh we believe that we are saved uh through Jesus Christ who is both full fully man
1:001:00 - and fully God and died for us on the cross to pay for our sins that is the essence of the gospel and so um attacks
1:071:07 - on the Trinity very very uh dangerous towards our understanding of the truth
1:121:12 - and so this being the case it’s important for us to kind of understand the ins and outs of this one um it’s not
1:181:18 - something maybe that we should gloss over so much uh because we need to be firm on this so that we can stand firm
1:241:24 - in the truth of the Bible and its teaching and so here in this lesson uh this is just going to be the introdu
1:291:29 - trory lesson for talking about the Trinity so we’re going to talk about the core definition of the Trinity how God
1:361:36 - is one in essence and three in person that is the the definition uh the
1:421:42 - simplest and most best way to formulate the doctrine of the Trinity then we’re going to talk about uh the terminology
1:481:48 - here and is the terminology itself important in considering the development of this Doctrine um or is it really not
1:561:56 - that relevant um so that’s a question we’ll be considering and then finally we’re going to kind of spell it out a
2:012:01 - little bit more kind of make more explicit what this statement here one in essence three in person means in terms
2:072:07 - of uh all three members of the Trinity are God yet all three members of the Trinity are not each other um and so
2:142:14 - you’ll see what I mean when we get there U but these are the introductory topics that we’re going to be talking about
2:192:19 - here as we dive into the doctrine of the
2:252:25 - Trinity so the core definition of the Trinity as we said is that God is one in
2:312:31 - essence and three in person and so you can’t leave off either one of those statements when you formulate the
2:372:37 - Trinity otherwise you run into heresy and so we’re going to be examining exactly what the statement means as we
2:432:43 - continue in the study but suffice it to say that this idea of one Essence and three persons or three persons and one
2:492:49 - Essence if you prefer to order it that way this is the central point and what you should always keep in mind when
2:542:54 - thinking about the Trinity these two statements together sum up all that is important about the Triune nature of God
3:023:02 - and so uh in talking about this in how we formulate it this is where we always
3:073:07 - want to start when we talk about the Trinity and I will say that obviously we
3:123:12 - could jump off from here and get into all sorts of discussions but just because we’re introducing things um you
3:193:19 - know any questions that come up um kind of my thought for what we talk about here is uh just maybe people have a hard
3:263:26 - time understanding like what this means and if we get too off in the weeds I’ll
3:313:31 - kind of pull us back and and just be like you know we have plenty more lessons in the study of the Trinity to cover what it means and so we don’t want
3:383:38 - to load everything up front here but Audi do you have initial thoughts on just this presentation of how we talk
3:443:44 - about it uh this simple definition uh that ichus presents as the starting point for discussing the doctrine I
3:513:51 - think that um the reason that uh that that
3:573:57 - statement is used is that it’s really very hard to describe what the Trinity is it’s it’s really hard even when you
4:054:05 - have a certain degree of understanding of it discussing it is very tough um
4:124:12 - because we’re talking about one God and we’re talking about three persons in in in our experience of uh of
4:204:20 - life as human beings it’s very hard to to to conceive of something of that sort
4:274:27 - it’s not in our experience at all so so that use of one Essence and three person
4:334:33 - is is a sort of Genius it’s a way of saying we’re still talking about one
4:394:39 - thing even when we’re talking about three persons um but if you don’t use
4:464:46 - that terminology in my experience when you try to explain it in any other way you keep running into all sorts of difficulties you end up trying to
4:544:54 - explain that you’re not talking about three gods or you try to explain that you’re not talking about one person you
4:594:59 - know um I’ve tried to make the analogy for example that there are if you were
5:055:05 - to compare it to being human beings You’ say that um well not just human beings but dogs anything that has a particular
5:135:13 - nature you’d say well all three persons have this same nature but the trouble
5:205:20 - with saying that is well they each have their own copy of that nature so to
5:265:26 - speak just like um I’m human Ste is human Lisa is human Abby is human these
5:335:33 - are all human beings right and we share
5:395:39 - Humanity it’s something we have in common but I have my Humanity Stephen
5:445:44 - has his humanity and Abby has high humanity and Lisa has her humanity and
5:505:50 - JD has his humanity and so on and so forth so when you when you look at it that way
5:575:57 - you see it doesn’t quite describe describe the Trinity because when it comes to the Trinity they all have the
6:036:03 - same Essence they don’t have similar Essence in that what the father has is
6:086:08 - similar to what the son has which is similar to what the spirit has it’s that they all have the same thing they have
6:156:15 - one thing that they share in common so in the end it just makes it’s easiest
6:226:22 - and and um probably most accurate to say that they have one essence even though
6:296:29 - they’re three person so that’s uh I I I think it’s it’s really the the only way
6:366:36 - to describe it without ending up in some really tough places sure and I think the
6:416:41 - way that ikas phrases it um I I actually kind of reward it a little bit just because of how I structure the slides
6:466:46 - but AAS calls it the simplest and best way to describe it um and I think that’s really getting to the heart of this of
6:536:53 - if you start here then it’s a matter of clarifying what exactly we mean by this
6:586:58 - right um that’s that’s a good place to start right not so much that that people are off in the weeds because if you
7:057:05 - start to try to explain it by analogy perhaps not that ichus does present several analogies as we’ll see so for
7:117:11 - example visible light the light spectrum right it’s all light yet it’s of different wavelengths for example um if
7:187:18 - you start with the analogies it just it’s harder to be there because then you have to explain
7:247:24 - all these things how it’s not really quite the same it’s just an analogy and so on and so forth and so agree um in
7:307:30 - terms of how we formulate this the reason why we start here um even though usually it will require some explanation
7:367:36 - because for example what does Essence mean exactly U we’ll get into that as we as we continue going on Lesson by lesson
7:437:43 - in our study of the Trinity here but the reason why we start with this formulation um and and we’ll get a
7:487:48 - little bit more to the end about another way to restate this right that uh sort of more full accounting of what this
7:557:55 - statement translates to in terms of logic but why we start here is just because it’s the best way for us to dive
8:008:00 - into this topic which as AI said is just kind of hard to explain um it’s just kind of a fact that we have to deal with
8:078:07 - here that it’s hard for us as humans to wrap our heads around this uh one particular thing maybe you might have
8:138:13 - more thoughts on this too is just understanding the unity that’s involved in this is not something that humans
8:208:20 - have a direct analog to in our experience and so um we we we can
8:258:25 - understand you know being united like as a team perhaps is humans or you know we’re in agreement as a group but it’s
8:328:32 - not the unity that you know the the members of the Trinity have it’s of a
8:388:38 - completely different nature than that and that’s why the one Essence bit is important here because uh if you don’t
8:448:44 - somehow convey that uh the unity uh you know the the sharedness if you will that
8:528:52 - the Trinity members possess then you end up with basically hand waving your way of well we have three people who are
8:598:59 - really somehow one person and then you become unconvincing um and so uh Unity is a big big part of what we need to
9:069:06 - focus on when we explain what the Trinity is and how uh the three members of the godhead function together is that
9:139:13 - they have a Unity completely unlike anything that we can conceptualize as humans at least Unity between human
9:199:19 - beings simply because they are all God um so I I don’t know if you want to rip
9:269:26 - on any of that as I say we’ll get into all of this much more as we explain uh in the coming lessons exactly what the
9:329:32 - Trinity is and what it is not um but anything more to say or shall we move on to the next Point yeah we can move on
9:409:40 - yeah okay great so now kind of having covered this
9:479:47 - initial definition of the Trinity that is that God is one in essence but three in person we’re going to be talking
9:549:54 - about the terminology here and kind of asking the question if the terminology itself is important when we uh consider
10:0110:01 - the development of this Doctrine and what we mean by that is sort of how people talk about it um if it was
10:0610:06 - formalized to kind of help argue against various heresies in the early church well what does that mean in regards to
10:1310:13 - uh whether the doctrine existed in scripture before that you know it didn’t just come to exist when we made a label
10:2010:20 - for it right um it existed before that and that’s going to kind of be what we emphasize here and so in answering this
10:2710:27 - question uh is the terminy itself important in considering the development of the doctrine uh the general answer to
10:3310:33 - that question is no uh because the Trinity has always been there in the Bible for those who are willing to open
10:3810:38 - their eyes and ears to the truth um the Bible writes of this you might think um on the road to emus uh you know when
10:4610:46 - Jesus explains uh to those he was walking with you know how the Old Testament spoke of him um a very
10:5110:51 - fascinating conversation that we kind of wish we had right what passages exactly did Jesus use uh to talk about about
10:5910:59 - himself right as displayed in the Old Testament you know we we might think maybe Isaiah 53 the suffering servant
11:0511:05 - that’s a possibility um other plenty of there’s plenty of other references in
11:1011:10 - the Old Testament uh that are christological in nature that’s the jargony way to say they point to Jesus
11:1611:16 - Christ um and specifically Jesus Christ as God um but in any case how later
11:2211:22 - people came to label the idea of the Trinity kind of isn’t really related to
11:2811:28 - the fact that the concept of the Trinity has been there in scripture from day one in fact not just in the New Testament
11:3411:34 - it’s been there even in the Old Testament from day one and so that’s kind of the important point for us to
11:3911:39 - recognize here is that the Trinity is it’s an aspect of God’s existence right we talked about how God is existence God
11:4511:45 - exists external to SpaceTime uh so he exists Before Time so to speak and God
11:5011:50 - has always been Triune in nature so the Trinity is inherent to God it is in fact
11:5511:55 - in no way conditional upon creation and in understanding that the fact that
12:0112:01 - people kind of developed terminology to talk about it more doesn’t mean that no one believed in the Trinity before they
12:0712:07 - started using these words um and you might kind of laugh and say well why are we even bothering to say that that’s
12:1212:12 - kind of common sense right but you know there is this idea and I I couldn’t tell you why it seems like nonsense to me but
12:1912:19 - it it’s there in um biblical studies Academia a bit um people talk about the development of doctrine that may be how
12:2612:26 - they phrase it but the development of the Trinity like it just seems to me
12:3212:32 - very silly and ich this is very clear um you’ll see in the formulation so this paragraph up here this was me but this
12:3712:37 - is uh ichus specifically I’ll actually read this now it says uh that no specific term for the Triune nature of
12:4412:44 - God exists in the Bible and this is where Dr Lugo kind of throws down his Gauntlet and says you know this is what
12:5012:50 - we need to believe regardless of what other people say he says the inspired writers of the New Testament clearly
12:5512:55 - felt that the existence of one God in three distinct persons the doctrine which we now call the Trinity was a
13:0113:01 - relatively straightforward concept and accessible enough even with a cursory reading of the scripture from passages
13:0713:07 - such as the one quoted above and then he quotes Revelation 4:8 which we’ll get to in a second but the point is is that
13:1413:14 - it’s there in the Bible you know and so the fact that some people started talking about it in a certain way in the
13:1913:19 - late second and early 3 Century doesn’t mean that no one before that actually believed in the Trinity it’s complete
13:2513:25 - nonsense um but for whatever reason we actually have to make this because some people apparently think that uh quote
13:3213:32 - unquote Doctrine was developed and I guess that people before that didn’t properly understand the Trinity or something like that which I just think
13:3813:38 - is complete nonsense um so that’s why we’re spending the time here to kind of go over this point and so Dr lugan Bill
13:4513:45 - uses uh this verse here in Revelation chapter 4:8 so I’ll go ahead and read it and then on the next slide we’re going
13:5113:51 - to kind of go over well if we say this as a kind of evidence be it direct or
13:5613:56 - indirect for the Trinity well kind of how does that work right I had this question when I first saw the verse and
14:0114:01 - that Dr luging was using it as okay so if we’re using this verse um as one of those passages in the Bible uh that
14:0814:08 - makes the Trinity a straightforward and accessible concept as we’ve been just arguing well how does it do that so the
14:1414:14 - verse here uh Revelation chapter 4:8 says this holy holy holy the Lord God
14:2214:22 - the almighty he who was and he who is and he who is coming so we’re going to
14:2714:27 - split this down break it down to kind of go into a bit more detail how this verse
14:3214:32 - which maybe doesn’t look on the face of it to have all that much relationship to the Trinity how does this support uh
14:3914:39 - kind of a trinitarian understanding of God and so to flush all this out a bit more um I don’t want to get too bogged
14:4514:45 - down in the Greek here but you know I just I included the Greek words uh just for people who know it who might be
14:5014:50 - interested um the kind of the the core reason why we say this verse supports
14:5614:56 - the Trinity and gives us that kind kind of the feeling of the trium nature of God is that in this verse we have we
15:0315:03 - have three sets of Threes right so you know the Trinity obviously composed of three people but we have a three-fold
15:1015:10 - repetition first off of the adjective holy in Greek so in Greek that’s the word hagios um we have a three-fold
15:1715:17 - repetition of the adjective holy so rather than just holy we have holy holy holy the Lord God the almighty now of
15:2415:24 - course repetition uh is used across languages for emphasis but we have three
15:3015:30 - holies here uh next we have three titles used um so cuos Theos and Ponto right
15:3815:38 - those are the Greek words cuos is the normal word for Lord Theos of course means God and this is the more
15:4415:44 - interesting one Ponto is literally translates as the Almighty we kind of have an English word that translate this
15:5115:51 - um but this is made from the Greek word for all and the Greek word for power so the all powerful one the almighty um
15:5915:59 - three titles right so we said uh three repetitions of the adjective holy three titles here and then after that we have
16:0616:06 - the three aspects of God’s Eternal existence right he who was this is the imperfect participle he who is the
16:1316:13 - present participle and then he who is to come this one’s a middle participle so
16:1816:18 - most people probably won’t be that interested in this but the point is you know God existed in the past he exists
16:2316:23 - now and he is to exist in the future past present and future three aspects of Eternal existence so you’ll notice here
16:3116:31 - we have three sets of thre and so someone kind of might say well it’s not impossible or even particularly uncommon
16:3816:38 - for multiple adjectives and titles to be applied to the same person right so you might think of kings and Emperors
16:4316:43 - throughout history were given epithets or if you’re familiar with uh like the
16:4916:49 - Greek epics for example like Homer various heroes in The Iliad were given
16:5416:54 - epithets you know that it’s a title um so different people can have multiple titles multiple adjectives appli to them and
17:0017:00 - that doesn’t like break grammatical rules or anything so that’s fair enough point but you might also point out here
17:0617:06 - that this versus structure of three-fold repetition of Threes would be somewhat
17:1117:11 - odd unless it were intentional so why would we have three sets of Threes in this verse rather than for example uh
17:1917:19 - you know two sets of things that weren’t threes so right what what what if we had like one adjective and four titles or
17:2717:27 - what if we had two adjectives one title the three aspects of God’s existence and then one other thing right so having
17:3417:34 - something that’s like 2131 rather than 3 three three so four groups only one of which is a group of
17:4017:40 - three and so on you know you can come up with other examples here but the very fact that we have three sets of Threes
17:4617:46 - in this verse it just means that the explanation that makes the most sense is simply that John inspired by the Holy
17:5217:52 - Spirit put things this way intentionally and therefore we ought not to ignore it uh QED that’s how the general argument
17:5917:59 - here goes is that why would this verse be structured uh in this very specific way with three sets of Threes all of
18:0618:06 - which Echo the three-fold nature of God if we’re not supposed to read something into it um so uh hopefully that’s a
18:1318:13 - little bit helpful in understanding why this verse here in Revelation chap 4:8 kind of helps point us to the idea of
18:1918:19 - the Trinity Now by no means is this the verse on which the doctrine of the Trinity Rises and Falls this is just an
18:2518:25 - example of where we get it in scripture there are plenty of other verses uh that are relevant in this discussion many of
18:3218:32 - which we will get to as we continue studying this topic but I just to give you an example of Trinity in the Bible
18:3818:38 - well this is one place where we can look as a passage that references it so kind of to turn our attention here back to uh
18:4618:46 - you know the usage of terminology in the early church and what we should make of that uh so the apostolic fathers which
18:5218:52 - is the generation that followed the men who actually Penn the New Testament so the apostles the apostolic fathers
18:5818:58 - that’s what they’re called um also felt that merely quoting scriptures was an entirely adequate way of discussing the
19:0419:04 - relationship between the father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and so to translate translate that into more plain
19:0919:09 - English they didn’t get very doctrinal and start building up all these systems and and argumentation about all this
19:1619:16 - because they were just like yeah the Bible you know the Bible talks about the father and the Bible talks about the Son and the Bible talks about the Holy
19:2219:22 - Spirit and they just kind of shrugged and they didn’t make a big deal out of it and so it’s not until the late second and early thirr centuries that the term
19:2819:28 - Trinity came into General use as a way of Defending against a variety of heresies which sought to deny various
19:3419:34 - aspects of what we now call the Trinity uh again one of the most prominent ones being that Jesus Christ wasn’t actually
19:4119:41 - god um well they kind of developed this as a way to talk about these things to
19:4619:46 - defend against people who were saying that things were not so um so they they
19:5119:51 - came into all of this uh for what early Generations had taken completely for granted based upon their common approach
19:5819:58 - to reading the Bible well now they kind of developed a system to talk about these things but as I emphasized from
20:0420:04 - the beginning here that doesn’t mean that people before this point didn’t believe in the Trinity or didn’t
20:1020:10 - understand the Trinity this just came about in a specific time and place in human history as a result largely uh to
20:1620:16 - help argue against various heresies that were challenging aspects of the Trinity and so that is uh what we are talking
20:2320:23 - about here this system came into place to make clear the fact that God the
20:2920:29 - Father the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are all actually God while at the same time uh in what we might
20:3420:34 - call a personal way they’re all distinct from each other right that is the Trinity um and the challenge of this and
20:4020:40 - also of course why there have been so many challenges to this is because in saying this we are saying that God is
20:4620:46 - one and yet God is also three and that there’s no contradiction between these statements but people always want to see
20:5120:51 - a contradiction there and that’s why the heresies arose and that’s why people started kind of um that’s right way to
20:5820:58 - put this uh making a system in order to debate these matters to defend the
21:0421:04 - doctrine against challenges to it and it got a little bit more formalized but that doesn’t mean that even before that
21:0921:09 - point that people weren’t talking about it or believing in it and things like that so that was introduction here to
21:1721:17 - this idea of terminology as it relates to the development of the doctrine of the Trinity so Audie do you have initial
21:2321:23 - thoughts about what we’ve been talking about here in this section um yeah I I
21:2821:28 - think just to strengthen what you already said that um Trinity is a is a
21:3421:34 - word that was invented to capture what was actually in the Bible matter of fact
21:4021:40 - is um it it it seems as if the Bible is less interested in telling you about the
21:4921:49 - Trinity and More in just telling you you know about the persons that it’s talking
21:5521:55 - about so it just starts talking about Jesus Christ Christ and just out of the blue starts talking about him as God
22:0222:02 - same thing with the father same thing with the Holy Spirit it doesn’t seem to um be particularly concerned about the
22:0922:09 - fact that someone reading that might go wait wait what’s happening the Bible just takes for
22:1522:15 - granted that well Jesus is God the father is God the holy spirit is God
22:2222:22 - there is one God get with the program you know so but people started to make
22:2822:28 - an issue of that and that’s why just like you said they the word was eventually invented just to make sure
22:3522:35 - that we could talk about these things and make clear what we are saying um we could also conceive of it as a try Unity
22:4322:43 - that’s a the perfect Unity of three persons that the unity so perfect and so
22:5122:51 - complete that it means that they are one God they’re not three Gods they’re in perfect unity in everything that really
22:5722:57 - counts but they are three three separate individuals so um uh the the term itself
23:0323:03 - the word itself is a word of convenience the Bible presents the whole thing as a
23:1023:10 - matter of fact and does not really go into how and why and all of that just
23:1723:17 - tells you well um like uh in Zechariah I
23:2323:23 - believe chapter 12 where it said um uh they will look upon me whom they have
23:2923:29 - pierced and you know the Lord God said to me the Lord God has sent me and so on
23:3723:37 - and so forth you know it’s like it just says it like it’s the most natural thing in the world why does it confuse you you
23:4523:45 - know so but the term itself is just for convenience yeah yeah I mean and I think
23:5123:51 - to bounce off what you said a bit this is the problem that people have when they kind of approach the Bible with a
23:5723:57 - precon notion of what it ought to say right so if you are and your faith is
24:0224:02 - being attacked by this very convinced guy over here who says you’re wrong and you wish you could just find ammunition
24:0924:09 - that directly proved him wrong in the Bible you might throw up your hands and say well why didn’t the Bible you know
24:1424:14 - phrase you know very systematic uh you know basically a systematic study of the nature of God in the Trinity so that
24:2124:21 - like with Point 1 B2 I might prove my interlocutor wrong well that’s just not
24:2824:28 - the purpose of the Bible right and I mean we don’t want to get too hand waving talking about quote unquote the purpose of the Bible right but
24:3424:34 - essentially God gives us everything we need to know but there’s a reason why he doesn’t give us more you know and some
24:4024:40 - of that as the gospels make clear is that uh we are supposed to as Christians exercise our free will to want to dig if
24:4724:47 - we do not dig to understand if we do not try we do not search we do not find
24:5224:52 - teachers who can help explain things to us we will not grow part of this whole process of the reason why we have
24:5824:58 - imperfect information so to speak is because it gives us the opportunity to choose um and so uh in this particular
25:0625:06 - instance we would say that the Bible it’s not that the Bible doesn’t support the Trinity it’s that people who want to
25:1425:14 - deny Christianity on account of the Trinity specifically are given enough room to do so right um and anyone who
25:2225:22 - cares enough to actually read the Bible with an open mind and think and ask questions will come to the understanding
25:2825:28 - that the Trinity is true and that the Bible teaches it and that it’s not like the Bible is vague or nebulous about it
25:3425:34 - and you know we’ll go over some of the passages that maybe we’re just waving our hand now but we will be more convincing about this I promise but the
25:4025:40 - whole point is is that the Bible is not systematic in its its outlining of these things right maybe perhaps not how an
25:4725:47 - apologist would desire to May to go use his ammunition against people arguing against his position right and so we
25:5325:53 - need to not read in our preconceived notions of what the Bible ought to say you know another example that comes
25:5825:58 - directly to mind here is people want the Bible to talk about uh you know the creation of the universe as if it’s a
26:0426:04 - science textbook right um and For Better or Worse a common argument trotted out
26:1026:10 - in defense of that was that the Bible is you know it’s not a science textbook which is true but we don’t need to be
26:1726:17 - like ashamed or feel dirty when we say that because the Bible is everything that God saw fit to give to us and if he
26:2326:23 - thought we needed more information he would have given it to us so uh you know just basically like AI said and and like
26:3026:30 - the early people said we can just shrug and be like well the Bible says this and the Bible says this and the Bible says this and and you know basically why are
26:3726:37 - you getting so upset about uh you know you set up this system of Doctrine and you’re like well I see points a and
26:4326:43 - points B and point C this doesn’t mean that we can’t be systematic and rigorous when we study things but we just need to
26:4826:48 - understand what the purpose of the text that has been given us is right we need to study it in the in the manner and the
26:5526:55 - way in which God intends for us to use it um am I being too vague AI do you want to bounce off anything I’m saying
27:0127:01 - or you think the point is sufficient into itself I I think it is I think it is
27:0927:09 - okay great well I don’t have too much more to say here um I do think this is an important point it’s why Dr lugan
27:1527:15 - bille I mean I made me chuckle a bit when I was reading it you know the strongness that he comes you know about the here let me some specific words here
27:2327:23 - right the straightforward and accessible nature of this Doctrine right because
27:2827:28 - the reason why this makes me chuckle is because I can think of people specifically atheists or agnostics who
27:3427:34 - would think that these statements are not true right that the Bible is not clear on this matter or at least it
27:4027:40 - could be a whole lot more clear and therefore uh they find fault with God on account of this but this is one of those
27:4727:47 - things where people who look with eyes of Faith it’s there you know um uh in in
27:5327:53 - the same way that all of these other beliefs that we carry as Christians maybe even beliefs that kind of cut against the common grain well God gives
28:0128:01 - us minds and he empowers us with his holy spirit to interpret his truth and if we believe we will see the things
28:0828:08 - that are behind uh the material things in this world right we’ll see the spiritual realities behind them um and
28:1628:16 - so in our particular example here all we’re saying is that the Trinity is in the Bible and that is sufficient unto
28:2228:22 - itself um if people don’t like that if they if they say that we’re just a that
28:2828:28 - and that uh I don’t know that we need to somehow prove it it’s kind of their problem um and and you know there it’s
28:3428:34 - not to say that people who are gifted in apologetics cannot engage on this matter or that nothing more could be said or
28:4028:40 - that we can’t even defend it from critics right because obviously our forbears uh you know one of the points we made was that they they came up with
28:4628:46 - this terminology uh and ways of outlining and expressing the doctrine and our belief and and I mean not that
28:5328:53 - they were perfect or anything but this isn’t something that we need to censure them for for right we’re defending the
28:5828:58 - truth we’re standing up for the truth that’s a good thing however between us as Christians when we’re when we’re
29:0429:04 - trying to explain this to other believers the point is is that the Bible talks about it it’s sufficient if you
29:1029:10 - look for it and with eyes of Faith understanding that this is something that we need to believe about God it’s
29:1729:17 - there you know you don’t have to go into mental gymnastic to do it but if you try to convince someone who’s skeptical who
29:2329:23 - is set not to believe you’re probably never going to convince them no matter what verses you show right
29:2929:29 - um all right so anything more to say on this topic before we move on to the next
29:3529:35 - you’re quite right I I don’t think that um there is uh much in the way of like I
29:4229:42 - I said before I I I think that it’s very deliberate on the part of the Bible that
29:4729:47 - it just presents a lot of these things as statements of fact it’s more like
29:5329:53 - um why are you confused it’s this it’s that it’s that end of story you know just take it take
30:0030:00 - it as it is so if anyone needs to be persuaded that the Trinity is a thing
30:0630:06 - that it is what the Bible teaches well let’s let’s just say you will never succeed at actually convincing them of
30:1330:13 - it it’s one of those things the Bible says that we will know when we um uh
30:2030:20 - when when we put off this body when we are we eventually come to be with the Lord because at that time we will have
30:2830:28 - faculties that are better able to make sense of um spiritual realities of this
30:3530:35 - sort but it’s sufficient to say he is God he is not a man he is not a creature
30:4230:42 - he’s not like the universe he made so we should not expect him to be like the
30:4830:48 - universe that we made we already talked about um the matter of his existence the
30:5430:54 - fact that the way that God exists is different than the way way that the Universe exists we have no concept of
31:0031:00 - how something could possibly self- exist it’s not in our experience things don’t
31:0531:05 - just exist we we Trace things to their beginning and then we say before they
31:1331:13 - came to exist something happened to bring them to exist we can’t make sense of God like that likewise we cannot
31:2031:20 - really make sense of how he is in the composition of his presence so to speak
31:2831:28 - we know that Jesus is God the holy spirit is God the father is God how do
31:3431:34 - we know Bible says it we also know that the father is not
31:4031:40 - Jesus that Jesus is not the Holy Spirit and that there is only one God we know that because the Bible says that we call
31:4731:47 - it the Trinity because it’s a big thing to it’s a mouthful if you want to you know
31:5431:54 - describe the whole thing what we just said now is something you would want to capture in um a few syllables to be able
32:0332:03 - to use it when you have to speak of it and that’s why Trinity as a word exists
32:0832:08 - so if people are not persuaded by that and I’ve had so many debates so many debates with atheists with agnostics
32:1632:16 - with even fellow Believers about this that I’ve just realized it’s it’s really pointless to debate it because the
32:2132:21 - statements are just obvious right on the bare face of it I I
32:2732:27 - I think one of the ones that I just pointed out is that one was pretty mind-blowing when I when I eventually
32:3232:32 - saw it where um Zariah was saying that the Lord God said to him that the Lord
32:3832:38 - God had sent him and you know so it was a pretty interesting thing to say and
32:4532:45 - there are people I think the the biggest experience of this that I had in my life
32:5132:51 - was with um the Jehovah’s Witnesses who are adamant about the fact that Jesus is
32:5732:57 - not God and they hate the very concept of the Trinity they believe that it’s a idea that was imported into Christianity
33:0533:05 - so um when when you talk with such people you come to realize it’s like
33:1133:11 - trying to convince an atheist that God exists my experience of such a thing is
33:1633:16 - that it’s too obvious to argue and when this is one of the the things I have
33:2333:23 - problems with the oldtimers for I mean the so-called Church fathers and church
33:3033:30 - doctors and whatnot I have this issue with them that because they were trying to make sense of the obvious they ended
33:3833:38 - up inventing philosophies that were actually alien to the Bible just to make
33:4433:44 - sense of something the Bible says it is sufficient that the Bible said it if the person is not willing to accept the
33:5133:51 - testimony of the Bible well what more can we say we have nothing more to say at that point there are doctrines in the
33:5733:57 - Bible that require some work and that where you can say this is how and this is why but in the scriptures we don’t
34:0434:04 - have the how and the why um uh the father is not Jesus and Jesus is not the
34:1034:10 - Holy Spirit and and the three are individually God and yet there is one
34:1634:16 - God we we don’t know how that is we don’t really know why that is but we we do know that it is because the Bible
34:2434:24 - says that it is and I think that’s what we should be very satisfied within every conversation we have with people yep I
34:3134:31 - mean I will say specifically if people are unfamiliar with kind of the debates that Audi reference shorthand there’s
34:3734:37 - this concept of Eternal beginning you may have heard this it’s even in the Nan Creed right it gets formalized people
34:4434:44 - say this I don’t think many people think about it but there’s also this idea that the spirit proceeds from the father and
34:4934:49 - the son um you’ll hear this this come up from the mouths especially of perhaps
34:5434:54 - Catholic folks or Orthodox folks where they try to explain the Trinity a lot more than what’s really there in the
35:0035:00 - text right um that’s some of what we’re getting at here um and these systems of
35:0535:05 - philosophy where you’re you’re trying to you’re trying to explain something that human beings can’t explain right this is
35:1235:12 - a very very important concept I don’t want us to get super off topic but very important concept for us as Christians
35:1835:18 - is basically learning when we need to like stop pushing on something and demanding an explanation from God right
35:2535:25 - um this is one of those areas in fact I will say that many of the areas that we need to be kind of
35:5535:55 - gunshy31 but then we will see clearly Right This Side of Heaven we have no
36:0036:00 - chance of understanding certain things now that doesn’t mean we should throw up our hands in cases where we really can
36:0736:07 - explain but we just need to be humble enough to say well the Bible said it in
36:1236:12 - this case and I’m gonna stick with that even if the system you’ve invented you know it’s it’s a
36:1936:19 - self-rationalizing
36:2636:26 - I think that’s where we’ll cut this section and and the next we will pick up just kind of fleshing out a little bit
36:3336:33 - more what that statement means and then that’s where we will close out uh this week here our introduction of the
36:3936:39 - concept of the Trinity so right before we move on to the next bit we actually paused had a couple good good points
36:4536:45 - brought up uh uh good things discussed so uh one thing to start with initially
36:5036:50 - is just that um even in the Bible the time that uh the apostles Paul and John
36:5736:57 - were writing parts of the New Testament we actually already had some of these challenges cropping up so you got to be
37:0237:02 - careful exactly which corners of scholarship you lean into and so on but uh the Apostle John was writing about
37:1037:10 - the Incarnation of Christ and emphasizing how Jesus Christ was actually a human being and it might seem
37:1537:15 - kind of weird to us especially when we’re talking about the Trinity but this is combating an early form of what is
37:2037:20 - typically called gnosticism this idea that Jesus was just somehow spiritual or something like that um and of course
37:2737:27 - Paul is uh he does reason with people various places in his Epistles but he too is arguing against incipient
37:3337:33 - challenges to a proper understanding of God and the thing to keep in mind in all
37:3837:38 - this so for example when Paul upgrades the Corinthians and uh First Corinthians and so on is that he really got down on
37:4537:45 - them for kind of their over intellectualization uh you know I say that that’s a really big word in my intellectual on their over
37:5237:52 - intellectualization of certain aspects of of uh the beliefs that we have as Christians and so um you know if they
37:5937:59 - try to make things conform to platonism neoplatonism Aristotelian logic you know
38:0438:04 - are are they getting wrapped up in all of this uh intellectual sounding mumbo jumbo rather than understanding what has
38:1238:12 - been passed down to us in the Bible um and so already at that point we kind of
38:1738:17 - run into this idea that um it’s not that you know our understanding of the Trinity for example is illogical is
38:2438:24 - simply that we can only go up to a certain point and because of that we
38:2938:29 - just need to acknowledge our own limits as human beings and these limits another Point brought up during discussion these
38:3438:34 - limits apply to all human beings it’s not like uh it is allowable for certain
38:4038:40 - people who might consider themselves wise teachers or whatever to be like ah well you don’t really understand the
38:4538:45 - Trinity just because you’re not wise enough unwashed masses of Believers that’s not how it works um all of us as
38:5338:53 - human beings are limited in our perspective uh simply because we are bound by space and time and we don’t
39:0039:00 - truly understand what all this means in the in the same way that we will in eternity when things are clear for us um
39:0539:05 - but that applies to everybody and we just need to acknowledge uh in humility that we will only understand up to a
39:1139:11 - certain point and again this doesn’t mean that this Doctrine is illogical it just means it’s super logical it exceeds
39:1939:19 - the bounds of what we can know um and so those are just a couple a couple points to bring up here in closing out this
39:2639:26 - discussion the early doctrine of the Trinity maybe how it was discussed so even at the time
39:3139:31 - of the the Bible was being written there were already kind of incipient challenges to proper understanding of
39:3839:38 - God and what he meant um I guess one other thing I kind of did this out of order relative to our discussion but we
39:4339:43 - kind of talked about uh Believers in the Old Testament as well how some of these things um even though they’re there in
39:4939:49 - the Old Testament you know we we argued that that these things have always been there in the Bible uh this was one of
39:5439:54 - those things that was arguably kind of veiled so Judaism cons always considered
40:0040:00 - to this day even to be a monotheistic religion a one God not Triune God just one God period um but people who read
40:0840:08 - the new the Old Testament honestly AI brought up this example in Zechariah there’s also the Messianic Psalm Audi
40:1440:14 - also brought this up in our discussion uh well I guess off the recording but a Messianic Psalm where uh David’s saying
40:2040:20 - and uh the Lord said to my Lord right what does that even mean if it’s not trinitarian right um there would have
40:2740:27 - been people in the Old Testament who were looking at the text and were wondering what does the say about God
40:3340:33 - you know is there more here um but it was actually hidden from them um the so-called Divine Mysteries right this
40:3940:39 - one of the benefits we have living in the time that we do is that those things which were once veiled are no longer
40:4540:45 - veiled um and all this to say we don’t necessarily get to look down our noses
40:5040:50 - at uh such great Believers as Abraham and David and uh you know maybe Isaac and Jacob and so on um because oh well
40:5840:58 - they didn’t understand the Trinity so maybe I’m such a great person now or whatever is because they lived in this time in which they had the same defining
41:0641:06 - faith that we have as Christians in their place and time and God had not yet unveiled all of these things uh perhaps
41:1341:13 - even to the angels there’s this verse in First Peter that talks about how even the angels want to look into these things and so part of that obviously is
41:1941:19 - the Incarnation of Jesus Christ and his death to redeem us on the cross but uh you know aspects of God nature and how
41:2641:26 - it interacts with creation all of this we don’t know exactly but obviously for Old Testament Believers the fact that
41:3241:32 - maybe there was a progressive revelation that’s the jargony theological term for this stuff that there was progressive
41:3941:39 - revelation here as it came to manifes in God’s nature and character and the fact
41:4441:44 - that he’s a Triune God doesn’t mean that the Old Testament Believers didn’t believe so uh that is some of what we
41:5241:52 - discussed here uh to conclude this section good thoughts here and now we’re going to turn kind of to wrapping up uh
41:5941:59 - this particular introduction to the doctrine of the Trinity before we jump into in future lessons uh some of the
42:0442:04 - specifics of it or we’re just going to go ahead and restate the doctrine kind of with a little bit more specificity
42:0942:09 - and that’s what we’re going to do in the next bit
42:1442:14 - here so just one last thing to talk about here in our introduction to the topic of the Trinity we’ve said that the
42:2142:21 - core definition of the Trinity is that God is one in essence yet three in person
42:2642:26 - and so I kind of said that we’ we’d kind of wind our way back to this and aie actually he said this almost word for
42:3342:33 - word uh in one of the things that he was talking about earlier in regards to the middle portion but to kind of put this
42:3942:39 - in complete terms when we say that God is one in essence and three in person what that actually means is that the
42:4642:46 - father is God the son is God and the Holy Spirit is God yet at the same time the father is not the son or the Holy
42:5242:52 - Spirit the son is not the father of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is not the father the sun um so um I tell you
42:5942:59 - what actually let me go find this I will we’ll we’ll we’ll get to this picture later on um so I’m going to go find the
43:0643:06 - uh section in the study here on ichus where we have the picture of the Trinity
43:1143:11 - um I know it’s somewhere here I mean like we’ll get to it some point here right this is exactly what we’re saying
43:1843:18 - um that the father of the Son and the Holy Spirit are all God but they are not each other that is what three persons
43:2443:24 - one Essence essentially needs um so that is all there is to it this introduction
43:3143:31 - of the doctrine that is what we say we believe when we say that God is one in essence and three in person so Audi any
43:3643:36 - clarifications to make here um anything else to say about what it is we say we believe um and like I said we’ll get
43:4243:42 - into all the specifics of this um as we move forward in the lessons but yeah I don’t think I have anything
43:4943:49 - further to see it’s okay great so that is our introduction here um introduction
43:5543:55 - to the the doctrine of the Trinity and we will be going through um more specifics as we move on in the further
44:0144:01 - lessons in this study here so these are the things that we
44:0844:08 - covered here in our introduction to the doctrine of the Trinity uh first we talked about the core definition of the
44:1444:14 - Trinity that God is one in essence and three in person uh then we spent some time talking about uh the terminology
44:2144:21 - itself how the Bible itself speaks to the Trinity and even before people came
44:2644:26 - up with some of the terminology that we now employ um people believed this and they believed it because it’s Common
44:3244:32 - Sense from the Bible because the Bible says things like Jesus Is God despite
44:3744:37 - what groups like the Jehovah’s Witnesses might say you know it’s what it’s what John chapter 1 says and so because of
44:4344:43 - this um we have these statements the scripture just presents as fact it doesn’t it doesn’t try to convince us of
44:4944:49 - them or logic um logic them into something we ought to believe it just asserts them it just States them and so
44:5444:54 - because of that people even before uh some of the so-called trinitarian
45:0045:00 - controversies happened people believe the Trinity because that’s what the Bible teaches um and that is not
45:0545:05 - entirely an uncont uncontroversial position for us to take but it is the position we should take because it’s in
45:1145:11 - the Bible is what the Bible says it’s what people believed because the Bible clearly states it and so we’ll go into
45:1745:17 - more of those places where the Bible clearly states it we did use as an example here Revelation 4:8 this verse
45:2445:24 - here saying holy holy holy the Lord God or sorry the Lord God the almighty he who was and he who is and he who is
45:3045:30 - coming this three-fold repetition of Threes that if you’re being kind of honest uh must be intentional and what
45:3845:38 - that points to us uh uh John the writer of Revelation uh you know writing under
45:4345:43 - the inspiration of the Holy Spirit included this and this is one such passage that we use that points us towards the Trinity um and then after
45:4945:49 - all of that discussion of terminology and how people kind of believe it and understand it because it’s there in the
45:5545:55 - Bible and so so we don’t need to get all worked up about uh you know did people only start believing it in the third
46:0046:00 - Century or whatever after all that we talked about um just how what this
46:0646:06 - statement of one in essence and three in person means is that uh the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are all God yet
46:1246:12 - they are separate and distinct from each other you know we’ll come back to this picture uh in the future lesson where it’s actually referenced but um the
46:1846:18 - three uh persons of the godhead the Father the Son and the spirit are all God and yet they are not each other
46:2446:24 - that’s what one in essence three in person actually means and so this is where we’re going to this is where we’re
46:2946:29 - going to stop our introductory video here and in the next videos we’ll actually be picking up uh first off by
46:3546:35 - by stating some things that the Trinity is not um so we’re going to be kind of defining what it is um by showing some
46:4246:42 - some things U uh also commonly debated uh in what we’d call historical theology
46:4846:48 - things that came up um some things that the Trinity is not and that will help us understand better what it actually is
46:5346:53 - and so that’s where we will be picking up in coming lessons here